John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 22,861 through 22,880 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #872702
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Hi To all

    Another Bible passage that bolsters the divinity of Christ through His Sonship is Matthew 4:3.

    “And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.” (Matt. 4:3)

    “When Satan and the Son of God first met in conflict, Christ was the commander of the heavenly hosts; and Satan, the leader of revolt in heaven, was cast out. Now their condition is apparently reversed, and Satan makes the most of his supposed advantage. One of the most powerful of the angels, he says, has been banished from heaven. The appearance of Jesus indicates that He is that fallen angel, forsaken by God, and deserted by man. A ‘DIVINE BEING’ would be able to sustain his claim by working a miracle; ‘IF THOU BE THE SON OF GOD, command this stone that it be made bread.’ SUCH AN ACT OF CREATIVE POWER, URGES THE TEMPTER, WOULD BE CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE OF DIVINITY…” (DA 119.2)

    Did you catch it? The devil tried to cause Jesus to doubt that He was the Son of God, and tempted Him to prove it by working a miracle that only a divine Being could do; therefore, the divinity of Christ was on the basis of His Sonship.

    And again, Satan repeated the same tactic when Christ was upon the cross through those that were guilty of His blood.

    “40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. IF THOU BE THE SON OF GOD, COME DOWN FROM THE CROSS.
    41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,
    42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, LET HIM NOW COME DOWN FROM THE CROSS, AND WE WILL BELIEVE HIM.” (Matt. 27:40-42)

    They sought for Him to work out a miracle to prove His divinity, which would sustain His claim that He was indeed the Son of God, but…

    “The power that rested upon Him came directly from the Father, and He must not exercise it in His own behalf… He met and resisted the enemy in the strength of a ‘Thus saith the Lord.’” (YI, Dec. 21, 1899)

    Christ said to Satan…

    “But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” (Matt. 4:4)

    The words that proceeded out of the mouth of God was this:

    “…This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” (Matt. 3:17)

    How many times must the Bible teach us of the divinity of Christ was due to the fact that He was the Son of God? If you believe in the divinity of Christ, you must believe that He is the Son of God because this was His argument for His divinity, and the Father plainly declared it. Do you believe?

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/HeavenlyTrioRevealed/permalink/790719248263597/

    #872703
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…..According to Jesus, we are “ALL”  the sons of God.  So what makes you think that Jesus,  being also a Son of God exactly as we are, makes him any different then we are, in the sense of being ” SON’S OF GOD TO”?    you seem to think because Jesus is call the Son of God , some how makes him different then we are.  ?  ,  Please list any scriptures that says that> if you can. Satan loves you people who try to make Jesus appear different then we are , in the eyes of people, you are his perfect workers as all ‘trinitarian’s are. IMO.

    peace and love to you and yours………gene

     

    #872704
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Berean…..According to Jesus, we are “ALL”  the sons of God.  So what makes you think that Jesus,  being also a Son of God exactly as we are, makes him any different then we are, in the sense of being ” SON’S OF GOD TO”?    you seem to think because Jesus is call the Son of God , some how makes him different then we are.  ?  ,  Please list any scriptures that says that> if you can. Satan loves you people who try to make Jesus appear different then we are , in the eyes of people, you are his perfect workers as all ‘trinitarian’s are. IMO.
    peace and love to you and yours………gene 

    Me

    You say you have God for your father, but in fact it is Satan who inspires you there…Really sad your case

    #872705
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer:  I’ll say it as it is. This is a lie. How ironic.

    But since you erroneously believe that anything you don’t agree with is a “lie”, nobody really cares what you call a “lie” anymore.  Your credibility on the matter is already shot – and getting more pathetic every time I ask you about King David and you cower from the question. 😎

    King David said that the sun runs a circuit over the earth.  Was King David telling a lie?  Yes or No?

    #872706
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  A father begins to be a father at the moment his son begins to be a son. In regards to God, his essence was eternal and became both father and son at the same instant.

    Proclaimer: This is either a lie or is true, but not written. It must be a lie because there are scriptures that contradict such an idea.

    Hey Kathi, how do you like the idea of Proclaimer calling you a liar – just because he disagrees with something you said?  Not very befitting of what’s supposed to be an adult Christian Bible discussion forum, is it?  Especially from the one who anointed himself as the forum “Peacekeeper”.

    Okay… I’ll try again.  @Proclaimer, what is the opposite of “true”?  “False”, right?  Not “lie”.  The phrase is “true or FALSE”… not “true or LIE”.

    So while I agree with you that Kathi’s statement is false and can be proven false with scripture, I don’t claim to know Kathi’s heart or mind.  I don’t claim to know for a fact that she already KNOWS her claim is false, and therefore made the claim with the sole intention of purposely deceiving other people.  And because I don’t know these things, I have no basis from which to say she was telling a lie.  I can say that her statement is nonsensical, inaccurate, or complete hogwash.  But I can’t say her statement was a LIE.

    Is any of this starting to sink in yet?  Go to your mirror and repeat to yourself over and over, “The opposite of true is false, not lie.  The opposite of true is false, not lie.  The opposite of true is false, not lie.”

    Do that for a couple of hours and then get back to us with your answer to whether King David LIED when he told us that the sun runs a circuit over the earth, okay?  Thanks.

    #872707
    carmel
    Participant

    HI Gene,

    YOU: Carmel……So in your theology , the only way to God is from Jesus right?,

     but Jesus said , “no man could come to him except God “draw him”.  

    Seems you have a contradiction of who moves on us first.

    ME: FIRST AND FOREMOST YOU MUST LEARN SOMETHING REGARDING

    THE PERFECT HARMONY BETWEEN 

    THE FATHER AND THE SON! JUST READ AND ACCEPT THE TRUTH:

    Luke 19:22 All things are delivered to me by my Father, and no one knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and to whom the Son will reveal him.

    NOW TO YOUR RATHER STRANGE QUESTION ABOVE:

    ME: Gene, WHO AM I?

    WHAT THEOLOGY?

    WHAT CONTRADICTION?

    I AM NOT ESTABLISHING  A THEOLOGY NEVERMIND

    MY THEOLOGY!

    I AM ESTABLISHING THE TRUTH, JESUS! READ:

    John14:5 Thomas saith to him: Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

    6 Jesus saith to him:

    I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

    No man cometh to the Father,

    but by ME

    7 If you had known me, you would, without doubt, have known my Father also: and from henceforth you shall know him,

    and you have seen him.

    8Philip saith to him: Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us. 

    EXPLAIN THE ABOVE Gene, please!

    Jesus said to Philip that THEY HAVE SEEN THE FATHER! 

    On the other hand, Philip again asked Jesus TO SHOW THEM THE FATHER! Then Jesus emphatically said again:

    9Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you;

    and have you not known me?

    JESUS IN THE ABOVE CONFIRMS THAT SOMEHOW HE IS THE FATHER ALSO?

    ANSWER PLEASE Gene, say something SHOW US YOUR THEOLOGY! ISN’T THAT WHAT YOU CALLED IT IN RELATION TO MY GENUINE PIECE OF SCRIPTURE! Again Jesus made it clear this time and said:

    Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also.

    How sayest thou, Show us the Father?

    WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED IN THE ABOVE CONVERSATION?

    ISN’T THERE A CONTRADICTION?

    ISN’T THERE A MISUNDERSTANDING BETWEEN JESUS AND PHILIP?

    FROM JESUS POINT OF VIEW THE TITLE FATHER IN RELATION TO GOD HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TITLE FATHER IN RELATION TO US HUMANS!

    Jesus, throughout  this chapter, mentioned the title Father  24 TIMES, on the other hand,  

    THE TITLE GOD HE ONLY MENTIONED IT 

    ONLY ONE TIME!

    NOT ONLY THAT BUT JUST READ  HOW AND DISCERN THE TRUTH PLEASE!

    John14:1 LET not your heart be troubled.

    You believe in God,

    believe also in me. 

    WHAT IS YOUR THEOLOGY IN THE ABOVE? PLEASE ANSWER!

    ALSO IN YOUR MERE QUESTION ABOVE STRANGELY ENOUGH,

    YOU NEVER MENTIONED THE TITLE FATHER, 

    BUT STRANGELY ENOUGH AGAIN, YOU MENTIONED TWO TIMES THE TITLE GOD! EXPLAIN PLEASE!

    IN THE MEANTIME, JUST READ SCRIPTURE PLEASE AND RESPECT IT SINCE FOR JESUS

    THE TITLES GOD and FATHER HAVE DEFINITELY A  SPECIFIC AND DIFFERENT CONNOTAIONS 

    John6:37All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me;

    and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out. 

    44 No man can come to me,

    except for the Father, who hath sent me, draw him;

    and I will raise him up on the last day. 

    45It is written in the prophets:

    And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard of the Father, and hath learned,

    cometh to me.

    46Not that any man hath seen the Father;

    but he who is of God, he hath seen the Father.

    only JESUS AD INTRA,

    no one else, OF ALL THOSE AD EXTRA, CREATURES!

    SO Again Gene WHAT IS YOUR THEOLOGY HERE! 

    FOR NOW, I AM WAITING FOR YOUR THEOLOGY!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #872708
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh…

    Hebrews 1:3 and Col 1:15 don’t support your idea that “God needed someone who was equal to Himself”.  In fact, they say little more than God said about mankind… that WE are also made in His image.  So nothing about Jesus being “equal” to God in any way – only that Jesus shares God’s image (as we all do).  So it’s not that I didn’t pay attention, it’s just that the verses don’t say what you want them to say.

    Romans 8:3 doesn’t support your claim either.  It’s saying that the law (sacrificing animals to atone for the sins of man) was not effective.  That’s why God sent His own Son as a sacrificial lamb to be slaughtered on behalf of us.  Nothing about that says God needed someone equal to Himself – or that Jesus is equal to his own God.

    Berean, I know what you believe and why you believe it.  I’m trying to show you that the reasons you offer don’t actually support your belief.  Let me give you an example…

    Deut 11:13-15… So if you faithfully obey the commands I am giving you today—to love the Lord your God and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul—then I will send rain on your land in its season, both autumn and spring rains, so that you may gather in your grain, new wine and olive oil.  I will provide grass in the fields for your cattle, and you will eat and be satisfied.

    Moses said those words, Berean.  If I had a personal desire for Moses to be God Almighty, then I could use this one verse to build a doctrine (like Kathi does with Heb 1:10).  But since I don’t have that personal desire, I assume this is a mistranslation in the Hebrew manuscripts – because it’s clear that neither Moses himself or any of the Israelites he led considered Moses to actually BE God.  It’s the same with Jesus.  There isn’t a single NT writer (nor Jesus himself) who claims that Jesus is the very God he is the Son of.  But people take a few verses here and there, and TWIST them into teaching something they clearly don’t.  John 1:1 for example.  You and I agree that it says the logos was theos.  But there are dozens in the scriptures who are theos.  What you need to remember is that John said the logos was theos and was with THE theos in the beginning.  That is a BIG difference from John saying the logos was THE theos.  In fact, for the logos to be with THE theos, it’s clear that the logos must be someone other than THE theos he was with.

    But Trinitarian scholars purposely translated both theos in John 1:1 with a capital “G” to cause people to believe the utterly nonsensical notion that a theos could BE the very theos he was WITH.

    The purposeful mistranslation of John 1:1 is the reason 95% of Trinitarians are Trinitarians.  “Well, it says right here the Word was God, so end of story!”  

    Now just do the same twisting with a few other scriptures, and presto… you have a doctrine where 3 different Gods form our one God – except it’s not really 3 Gods, but three persons in a Godhead, and one of those Gods can be the son of one of the other Gods while still being the same exact God as his Father God.

    It’s mind-numbing.

    #872709
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  Who, being in the form of God…

    That’s another excellent example.  The Greek words don’t say “the form of THE theos”, Berean.  It is just theos WITHOUT the definite article “the”.  And as such, it is correctly translated as “the form of a god”.

    And that’s what Phil 2 teaches… that Jesus was existing in heaven in the form of a god (as are all of God’s other spirit sons too),  where he never even considered equality with his own God (THE theos) something to be grasped, but instead emptied himself of this form of a god and was made in the form of a human being.

    So instead of scripture teaching that Jesus is equal to God, this particular passage that you brought up actually teaches that Jesus never even considered the thought that he was equal to his and our God.

     

    #872712
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike

    Hebrews 1:3 and Col 1:15 don’t support your idea that “God needed someone who was equal to Himself”.

    Me

    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, 

     

    JESUS IS THE ONLY ONE BEING WHO IS LIKE GOD….

     

    Besides, that’s what MICKAËL means.
    So you believe or don’t believe, it’s your choice.

    #872714
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike…..Berean is indoctrinated into the false teachings of the Trinity, it would take a miracle to bring him out  of it,  simply a waste of  time.  Our teachings are much alike, except I do not believe Jesus preexisted his birth on this earth , but was certainly prophesied to come by God through the prophets,  and God word came true , it was the “flesh man”, Jesus.  Much like King Cyrus was 200 years before his birth,  he was also the word of God who came in the flesh.  But I see no one calling him the word of God.

    So we may have some variance on things,  like I do with  Proclaimer, especially  on preexistence, but one thing, I believe the most important thing is, we do not believe Jesus was or is A GOD,  even if he had the Devine nature of God the Father “in” him. We can all partake  that in us also, by the same Spirit of God “in” us , just like it was in Jesus Christ our lord.

    peace and love to you and yours………..Gene

    #872715
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike …….Your post # 872708  was right on, brother,  I completely agree with , it would do well If  everyone here read it,  and really thought about it.  Because that is exactly what the ,  ‘TRINITARIAN’S” DO. “they force our scriptures to say what in fact,  they are not saying or even hinting at either. ”

    The “DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY”  is beyond a doubt, Satans,  greatest achievement , in deceiving humanity, that he has ever committed. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

    #872716
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    I am not indoctrinated in the false teachings of the Trinity, it is you who do not understand that Jesus “named by John: THE WORD: John 1 (OF GOD: Rev.19) WAS” THEOS “IN THE BIGINNING, AND THAT HE WAS MADE FLESH FOR OUR SALVATION.

    #872720
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean……You most certainly are,  Because as they are saying you are saying is what John 1: 1,  does not say at all> John never said Jesus was A God, nor that Jesus himself is the word of God either,  But Jesus  said  just the opposite,  “the words i am telling you “ARE NOT” my words”  Now that’s,  what Jesus himself said. So if Jesus said the words he was telling us were ‘NOT’ his words,  then what words were they , they were the words of God, who was telling what to say to us,  Jesus was just “QUOTING” God the Fathers words to us.  GET IT? 

     

    When Jesus said he who has seen me has seen the Father,  he meant that,  because it was the Fathers “WILL”,  he was doing,  “NOT HIS OWN WILL”. The same can be said of anyone doing the Will of God.
    “Because it is God who works “in’ us , “both” to WILL,  and do of “HIS”, good pleasure.  GET IT?

    Peace and love to you and yours………..gene

    #872721
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    Know that you are not a reference in matters of theology … You think you know, but you do not know.

    Proverbs 14:12

    There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

    #872722
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Adam,

    YOU: Messiah ‘Coming down from above is something mythological creation of the NT writers which is foreign to Hebrew Bible.

    ME: may I ask you a rather odd question please, it could seem out of the contest, but my intention is to expand on it and determine some vital truth.  This is my question:

    FROM THE HEBREW BIBLE POINT OF VIEW,  IS GOD BOTH THE FATHER OF JEWS AND THE GENTILES OR THE FATHER ONLY OF THE JEWS, CONSIDERING THE FACT THAT GOD MADE IT CLEAR AND SAID

    ISRAEL IS MY SON.

    I AM ASKING YOU THIS PARTICULAR QUESTION SIMPLY AS YOU ARE VERY KEEN ON THE HEBREW BIBLE.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #872723
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: John 14:1 Read, discern and practice

    THE ONLY TRUTH! JESUS!!!
    LET not your heart be troubled.  You believe in God, believe also in ME.

    You quoted a scripture where Jesus identified himself as someone other than God, Carmel.  Why don’t you believe your Lord when he himself tells you that he is someone other than God?

    Carmel: YES MIKE YOU CAN VERIFY SUCH A THING, AS I ASKED JESUS NOT THE DEVIL!

    Then you tell me that you know you have been given truth from Jesus because Jesus is the one you asked for that truth, not the devil.  Forgive me for not being convinced – especially since we were forewarned that Satan can masquerade as an angel of light.

    Mike:  …you wouldn’t be able to just take my word for it if I told you that the things I’m trying to show you came via revelation from God, right?

    Carmel:  YOUR OWN PREACHING WOULD JUSTIFY WHETHER IT IS A REVELATION OR NOT!

    I agree completely with you on that… which, ironically, is why I so rarely agree with you.  You consistently preach things that are either not in scripture at all (ie: GODMAN), or are clearly refuted by scripture (ie: Jesus is more powerful than God).

    Carmel, the correct answer to my question is:  SCRIPTURE.   That is the only thing we have to test the spirits against.  In fact, the whole idea of testing the spirits to see if they are from God is based on the fact that evil spirits can convince you that you’re listening to Jesus himself – when you are not.  So you will know them by their fruits, and you can test what they say against God’s written word to see if it aligns.

    Based on this, I suspect that although you asked Jesus, it was clearly not Jesus who answered you… because you teach that Jesus is God Almighty, whereas the scriptures teach that Jesus is the son, servant, mediator, messiah, spokesman, prophet and sacrificial lamb OF God Almighty.

    Now… when were you going to answer those other two questions?

    Is it scriptural that God did signs and miracles through His servant Jesus?
    Is it scriptural that God did signs and miracles though other servants, and can do even greater signs and miracles through any of us if He wants to?

    #872724
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer:  Well it would be safe to say that God is there. So now you are also looking down using your own analogy and simple 2D models.

    Why would God be below the earth?  In the Biblical model (not “my” model), God sits on His throne above us… ALL of us.  There isn’t even such a thing as “above” in the unbiblical model you subscribe to – let alone the possibility for God to be above you and Kathi at the same time.  Nor would all eyes be able to see Jesus when he returns.

    Proclaimer, King David (possibly speaking in the Spirit) said that the sun runs a circuit over the earth – from one end of the heavens to the other.  Was King David telling us a LIE?  Yes or No?

    #872725
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: Another Bible passage that bolsters the divinity of Christ through His Sonship is Matthew 4:3…

    I don’t argue against the divinity or deity of Jesus, and accept that both of those qualities come from him being one of God’s spirit sons.  Another AMEN for us, B! 😊

    #872726
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: FROM THE HEBREW BIBLE POINT OF VIEW,  IS GOD BOTH THE FATHER OF JEWS AND THE GENTILES OR THE FATHER ONLY OF THE JEWS, CONSIDERING THE FACT THAT GOD MADE IT CLEAR AND SAID ISRAEL IS MY SON.

    Very good and interesting.  I’m anxious to see how Adam responds.

    #872727
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  Our teachings are much alike, except I do not believe Jesus preexisted his birth on this earth , but was certainly prophesied to come by God through the prophets,  and God word came true , it was the “flesh man”, Jesus.

    I’m always stuck in the middle of non-preexisters and Trinitarians, Gene.  But from my middle ground of what the scriptures actually teach, I can see the good and bad arguments from both sides.  You make excellent scriptural arguments that Jesus isn’t God Almighty, while Berean turns around and makes excellent scriptural arguments that Jesus preexisted his time on earth.

    I get to see the best of both worlds from my vantage point, although I often wish I could just bang both of your heads together and it would result in you seeing the truth that Jesus preexisted and him seeing the truth that Jesus isn’t the God he is the Son of. 😁

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