John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 22,621 through 22,640 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #872162
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam: In the Hebrew Bible ‘son of God’ never meant a literal divine being as imagined by the NT writers.

    Gen 6:2… the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they took as wives whomever they chose.

    Deut 32:8… When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.

    Job 1:6… One day the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.

    Job 38… Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth… while the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

    Shall I go on?  Will you claim that these sons of God are human beings?

    #872163
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike……your argument, is full of holes. Scripture does explain a species of angelic being  even Jesus said we shall be like the angels,  that obviously means , Angelic beings do exist and the do eat food,  call manna right?

    1..When Jesus went through the door and appeared to the disciples , they thought he was a Spirit , but Jesus said he wasn’t.  Because A spirit  didn’t have flesh and bones, as he did .

    2.  No one has produced a single scripture showing anyone being changed  into a spirit ,  from a human being either.

    3..  All scripture show the resurrection, as a new “spiritually”,   “regenerated” physical  body”  a body exactly as Jesus had and has now. The exact same  physical body he will return with,  to rule this earth. IMO.

    NO WHERE DOES ANY SCRIPTURE ACTUALLY  SAY ,  A physical body can not exist in the kingdom of God.  It says(it) can’t ‘inherit” it.  Why?  because a physical body is like a house or car, it has no mind itself,  to inherit anything,  but they (spirits) can contain bodies they live in,  and  control them , the Same thing applies to our bodies they are vessels that contain our spirits and our physical body carries about our spirits wherever (it)  “the Spirit”, wants to go.  As Jesus explained it.

    peace and love to you and yours Mike…………gene

     

     

    #872164
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer:  Remember @Stu, he did those things and it was necessary to restrict him to topics dedicated for Skeptics.

    I not only remember Stu, I liked him and miss him.  I wish I had the chance to have another go with him about the absurdity of billions of years and big bang and common descent evolution.  I know way more now about that nonsense than I did then.

    #872165
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  No matter what the king said,  he was called that,  because he told the people what the king said  to tell them.   The kings word went to the servant,  and the servant told the people,  exact the same as any prophet of God did,  and that  includes  “Jesus”.

    And that servant of the king was called “The Word of the King” because he was the king’s PREEMINENT spokesman.  It is the same with Jesus.  He is called the Word of God because, although God has used many spokesmen, Jesus is God’s PREEMINENT spokesman.

    So we should expect to never hear you saying again that a word is never a person.  Especially since you know that the rider of the white horse (a PERSON) is named The Word of God, right?

    #872166
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: YOU Gene, AS SOON AS YOU HAVE FAITH AS A GRAIN OF A MUSTARD SEED YOU COULD PERFORM MIRACLES EVEN GREATER THAN JESUS DID!

    Sounds like you’re making Gene’s argument for him.  He said that Jesus didn’t do the miracles, but God did the miracles through Jesus.  And you rightly point out that, with enough faith, God can do similar and even greater miracles through any one of us.

    The bottom line:  If Jesus was “Godman” as you assert, then he would have done his own miracles.  But as the scriptures attest, God did those miracles through Jesus – just as God did miracles through Moses, Elijah, and Samuel, etc.

    #872167
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer:  And why is it hard to believe in the grandiose plan from a God that created the cosmos.

    Could you please show me this “cosmos” that God created in scripture?  All I can find is a heaven and an earth separated by a firmament, in which lights called the sun, moon and stars run appointed circuits over the earth.

    #872168
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi:  …in these last days, hath spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, through (by reason of) whom also made the worlds…

    Hi Jodi, would you agree that another way of saying “by reason of” would be “for”?  Do you understand the above verse as saying God made the worlds FOR his Son?

    #872170
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  Hi Proclaimer, you seem to judge others so fast without knowing their heart.

    Agreed.  He is quick to call others liars, or insinuate that they are less enlightened than him,  just because they interpret certain information differently than he does.  I have condemned this behavior many times on this forum.

    That being said, I don’t consider you a liar, or less enlightened than me – as if the Holy Spirit composes my posts here for me or something.  I take issue with your flawed REASONS for rejecting the NT as Hellenistic mish-mash.  I don’t particularly care whether or not you accept the NT.  I just don’t like it when you give “scriptural” reasons for doing so which are not found in any scripture.

    For example, you’re currently saying that the phrase “sons of God” never referred to spirit entities in the OT.  That’s nonsense, and I’ve listed a few verses for you as a rebuttal.  I’ll wait to see if you respond.

    #872171
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  The book of Daniel is a non-prophetic book in the Hebrew Bible written in 2nd BCE by a pseudo writer.

    Proof please?

    #872172
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Adam:  Yes you got the point behind my negation of the NT as it had deviated from its original source and made the mess of every thing.

     

    Proclaimer:  Whereas, I see that the mess is in your own mind…

    I agree that the mess is in Adam’s mind, and of his own making.

    #872174
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  NO WHERE DOES ANY SCRIPTURE ACTUALLY  SAY ,  A physical body can not exist in the kingdom of God.

    I never made any such claim.  I claim that flesh and blood (also known as “flesh and bone” – both of which are poetic ways of saying “human being”) cannot see, enter, or inherit the kingdom of God.  If Jesus is a human being, then he’s ineligible.

    As for the new bodies of those who will receive eternal life…

    1 Cor 15…

    38But God gives it a body as He has designed, and to each kind of seed He gives its own body.

    40There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies.

    44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

    47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so also are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so also shall we bear the likeness of the heavenly man.

    50Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

    51We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

    Gene, to me this says that the flesh and blood body that humans have is a perishable natural body.  It says the heavenly body is imperishable – so not “flesh and blood”.  It says the dead will be raised with these new imperishable bodies, and those alive at Jesus’ second coming will be changed, having their perishable bodies transformed into imperishable ones.

    How do you read it?

    #872180
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Agreed. He is quick to call others liars, or insinuate that they are less enlightened than him, just because they interpret certain information differently than he does. I have condemned this behavior many times on this forum.

    Show me the proof. A link to a post will be sufficient.

    #872182
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    From a year and a half ago…

    HN Liar

    The next day on the same thread…

    HN Liar 2

    And ignore you I did… for over a year.  In fact, I’ve just recently began having some very cursory discourse with you again.

    And the above isn’t the only time I’ve called you out for calling other members here liars – as many of them can attest.

    And no, nobody is falling for your, “I don’t actually call anyone a liar” crap.  Let me expose how that argument goes for those who have yet to witness it first hand…

    Proclaimer:  Gene, you are lying.  You know you’re lying, and everyone here knows you’re lying.  You need to stop lying and maybe you’ll get the Holy Spirit like I have and you’ll become as enlightened as me on all things spiritual.  (Oh, by the way, you’ll notice that although I claimed you were lying 4 different times, I never actually said that you were a liar – so I remain a God-fearing Christian Peacemaker with untarnished record!)”

    Sound familiar to anyone?  🙄

    So… has enough time gone by now that you’ve come to realize the elementary fact that a LIE stems from INTENT to PURPOSELY deceive another person – and has no place in civil discussion between Christians who often have completely different interpretations of scripture?

    The word LIE should NEVER enter into any of your posts unless you have first hand knowledge that the person you’re accusing is 100% for sure trying to INTENTIONALLY promote information that THEY KNOW is false in order to deceive someone else.  That word is not for people understanding scriptures differently than you do.

    #872183
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Excuse me, but the statement I make in your first quote is correct. It stands on its own. Do you think we cannot utter this? Is this statement incorrect? You first example is a fail. It doesn’t show me saying, Mike is a liar for example.

    #872184
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Your second example contains your own words which I have no control over. That is not proof or evidence that I have said you are a liar is it?

    If you cannot provide even one example Mike, then you are falsely accusing me.

    Please provide an example or admit you are wrong.

    Thanks.

    #872185
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Do you really want to do this again?  Okay.  It started with you posting an illustration of a disk earth with 3 people looking off in different directions.  And you asked if the earth was flat, how could all 3 of those people see the same sky.  And I rightly responded that all 3 people WOULDN’T see the same sky – since they are on different parts of the plane.  My statement was ACCURATE – which then prompted you to realize your error and rephrase to say that you didn’t mean they could all see the same sky AT THE SAME TIME.  Well then, what’s the problem?  On a ball earth spinning under the sky, they’d all see the same sky at different times.  On a flat earth with lights in the sky running appointed circuits over them (as the Bible clearly and unapologetically says many times in many different ways), they would all see the same sky at different times.  So it’s wasn’t even a good point to begin with, because the same results would occur whether we lived on a spinning ball or a stationary plane.  But just like with our recent discussion on the elementary fact that for God/heaven to be ABOVE everyone on earth (as in: OVER THEIR HEADS, LOOKING UP INTO THE SKY) the earth has to be flat, you must have been confused by your mistake on the 3 men too.  Only that time, you chose to lash out at me with accusations of lying.

    And here’s how that went…

    #872186
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    HN Liar 3

    Notice my correct response in the blue square.  Notice your immediate attack against my character in the red square. What part of what I said was wrong – or a lie?  Now you will later say that you didn’t *literally* come out and call me a liar – but anyone who reads your comment in the red box above will agree that you were indeed calling me a liar, and even going as far as insinuating that I was using compound lies – one to cover over another – and that you had somehow caught me.

    Later in the post… AFTER you accused me of lying… your confusion was made evident when you let on that you apparently think that every star in existence can be seen by anybody looking at the night sky – as if there aren’t a billion more stars that are UNDER your ball earth at the same time. 🙄  But we never made it that far in the discussion, because I called you out for calling me a liar.  And this is how that went…

    #872188
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    HN Liar 4

    Do you see how I tried to be the peacemaker that you claimed to be?  Do you see how I tried to explain to you the difference between an INTENTIONAL act to WILLFULLY deceive someone else on purpose, and somebody making a simple mistake?  Yet I was met with every post from you including the word “lie” – in some condescending further attack on my character. So then what happened?

    #872190
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    HN Liar 5

    See?  After your brother in Christ demands that you don’t call him a liar, you went post after post after post talking about how it is your duty to call out lies – again making it abundantly clear that I was the “liar” you were calling out.

    And in the middle of your condescension against me, you even admitted that I had corrected you… which I did, because you didn’t say anything about the 3 men seeing the same sky AT DIFFERENT TIMES at first.  You just asked how the 3 men could all see the same sky.  And I said they couldn’t, right?  And for that I was subjected to a barrage of personal insults against my character?

    You’ll need to preach to a different choir.  Nobody here is going to take your side on this one.  You can hem and haw around it and say, “Well, I never TECHNICALLY said, ‘Mike, you are a liar'”, if that makes you feel better.  But now everyone else in this thread can see how you did me – simply for pointing out an error in YOUR argument.

    So I say again… there is no need for the word “LIE” to ever leave your mouth in reference to anyone on this site – as if you know their heart or intent. And there is no need for you to talk down to anyone here – as if you have more “Holy Spirit” than them or enlightenment or whatever.  You do fine making solid scriptural based arguments here.  Just stick to that, and leave the personal attacks out of it.

    #872195
    gadam123
    Participant

    So I say again… there is no need for the word “LIE” to ever leave your mouth in reference to anyone on this site – as if you know their heart or intent. And there is no need for you to talk down to anyone here – as if you have more “Holy Spirit” than them or enlightenment or whatever.  You do fine making solid scriptural based arguments here.  Just stick to that, and leave the personal attacks out of it.

    I think that is a gentle man agreement.

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