John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • #871873
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    Again you show how much you don’t “really” believe what Jesus himself said.  You say he was the one who created everything that exists,  but he said this,  “the son of man” can do “NOTHING ” Of himself”, the Father that is “IN” HIM, “He”  does the works”.
    Seems again you and our lord Jesus have different opinions on the subject of who creates things.

    ME: IN THE ABOVE Gene, YOU PURPOSELY  CORRUPTED THE SCRIPTURE TO PLEASE AND QUENCH YOURSELF!

    YOU MIXED PART OF John 5:19  WITH part of John 14:10

    Now Here is the RIGHT scripture of John14:10 Gene:

    John14:10 Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak to you, I speak not of myself.

    But the Father who abideth in me, he doth the works. 

    Now Let’s see what Jesus revealed to us in John5:18-23!

    John 5:Therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, because he did these things on the sabbath. 17But Jesus answered them: My Father worketh until now; and I work. 18 Hereupon therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he did not only break the sabbath, but also said God was his Father,

    making himself equal to God.

    Gene, the Jews concluded that JESUS IS EQUAL TO GOD! Jesus aware of what’s in their mind made it clear and said:

    19Then Jesus answered, and said to them:

    Amen, amen, I say unto you,

    the Son cannot do anything of himself,

    but what he seeth the Father doing:

    In the above Jesus simply made it clear to the Jews that THOUGH JESUS IS EQUAL TO THE FATHER, as they concluded, HE IS NOT READY TO ANTICIPATE AND DO SOMETHING  DELIBERATELY BY HIMSELF, BUT ALWAYS EQUALLY AND IN HARMONY WITH THE FATHER.

    THIS IS THE PERFECT HARMONY THAT ETERNALLY EXISTS WITHIN THE DEITY! KEEP ON READING Gene,

    for what things soever he doth, these the Son also doth

    in like manner.

    Can you see the truth Gene, when it comes to the SPIRITUAL TASK OF GOD BETWEEN THE FATHER AND THE SON?

    NO, YOU DON’T I’M AFRAID AS YOU DON’T BELIEVE IN A TRIUNE GOD.

    DESPITE THE FACT THAT YOU Gene ARE  A TRIUNE BEING

    IN THE IMAGE AND LIKENESS OF GOD, OBVIOUS

    IN JESUS CHRIST AS THE FATHER IS ONLY A SPIRIT, AND THE ONLY BODY GOD POSSESSES IS JESUS’. “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, THE SON OF MAN.

    HENCE, IN THE ABOVE JESUS MADE CLEAR THAT WHATSOEVER THE FATHER DOES  REGARDING HIS SPIRITUAL WORK, JESUS, IN LIKE MANNER DOES AS WELL REGARDING THE PHYSICAL/CARNAL WORK, THE FACT THAT JESUS IS

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH! WELL CLEAR IN 

    John17:2 As thou hast given him POWER OVER ALL FLESH,…

    OK GENE? THE FATHER, SINCE HE IS A SPIRIT,

    CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF  REGARDING THE FLESH, BUT ONLY THROUGH JESUS! THE SON OF MAN!

    no Father no Son, no Son no Father!

    the head of Christ is God!

    WHAT IS A HEAD WITHOUT A BODY,

     A SKULL! DEAD!

    AND WHAT IS A BODY WITHOUT A HEAD?

     A TRUNK! DEAD!

    CARRY ON READING Gene, 

    20For the Father loveth the Son, and showeth him all things which himself doth: and greater works than these will he show him,

    that you may wonder.

    AGAIN AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL, A PERFECT HARMONY BETWEEN THE FATHER AND THE SON!

    KEEP ON READING Gene, for God’s sake!

    21For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and giveth life:

    so the Son also giveth life to whom he will.

    OK Gene, can you for a change accept the truth?

    IN THE ABOVE  JESUS SIMPLY DECLARED THAT AS

    THE FATHER RAISES THE DEAD AND GIVES LIFE TO THE SPIRITUAL CREATURES LIKE

    SOULS,

    THROUGH THE HOLY GHOST, 

    THE SON IN LIKE MANNER RAISES THE DEAD AND GIVES LIFE TO WHOM HE WILL REGARDING THE FLESH CREATURES, 

    EVEN GIVES LIFE TO HIMSELF! 

     THE SON OF MAN!

    OK, Gene??? 

    READ MORE Gene Pleas!

    22For neither doth the Father judge any man,

    (REGARDING THE FLESH)

    but hath given all judgment to the Son.

    AS ONLY THE SON, “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, DIED, AND GAVE

    ETERNAL LIFE TO THE FLESH.

    23That all men may honour the Son, (IN THEIR PHYSICAL EMBODIMENTS, THE TEMPLES OF GOD ) as they honour the Father. (IN THEIR SPIRITUAL EMBODIMENTS, THE SONS OF GOD, GODS)  

    He who honoureth not the Son, honoureth not the Father, who hath sent him.

    IN THE ABOVE JESUS ASSERTED THAT

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, JESUS’HUMAN NATURE  THE SON OF MAN, and THE HOLY GHOST IN JESUS’SOUL, JESUS’ DIVINE NATURE ARE NOT TWO ANYMORE BUT

    TWO IN ONE FLESH EMBODIMENT IN

    JESUS CHRIST and in HIM the entire human race!

    GODMAN!

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #871882
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…..Jesus said this also,

    Matt. 23:9….And call no man your father upon the earth“for one is your Father, which is in heaven”.

    Seems we and Jesus have the same Father, so are we God’s too?,  tell us Carmel are you a God, seeing Jesus said  you and Jesus have the same Father, according to Jesus.  So tell us what part of the above “quoted” scripture do you not believe,  and if you do believe what Jesus said, then why do you and Other “trinitarians” go about always trying to make Jesus appear different then we are constantly.

    You and all like you who have turned “the “MAN” Jesus into your God, are committing “IDOLATRY ”  and will suffer the same fate as all IDOLATERS do.  2 this 2,  is your fate unless you repent. 

    What I quoted in the pryer post is exactly right just as this post is also.

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

     

    #871883
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    Carmel…..Jesus said this also,

    Matt. 23:9….And call no man your father upon the earth“for one is your Father, which is in heaven”.Seems we and Jesus have the same Father, so are we God’s too?,  tell us Carmel are you a God, seeing Jesus said  you and Jesus have the same Father, according to Jesus……

    Me

    “for one is your Father, which is in heaven”

    1 -Gene what IS “HEAVEN” for You and bliblicaly speaking ?

    2- Jesus Said us WHEN He WAS on earth that he came DOWN from HEAVEN

    For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.(John 6:38)

    WHY YOU cannot beleive what JESUS Say about what he Say WHEN He Say That he came DOWN from HEAVEN ???

     

    #871885
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean……why can’t you believe What Jesus said who is “our” “heavenly Father ? Nor what Jesus said about who “the “ONLY ”  “TRUE GOD” WAS.  Why not let’s start with that first,  Then we can move on to this scripture,  “but unto us (true believers) we have only “ONE” GOD, and one mediator between men and God,  “THE MAN” Jesus Christ.  By the way that was said after Jesus was resurrected and went to heaven.

    Berean you trinitarians are all deceived by Satan, and do his work of deception for him.

    peace and love to you and yours………gene

    #871889
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    Your answer shows Once again that you are evading the truth … You deny the divinity of Jesus

    A uniquely human Jesus cannot save humanity.
    In truth Jesus Christ is divine-human … But you do not believe it.

    So did Jesus come down from heaven or not?

    Yes or no. ???

    #871890
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    That God the Father is the only true God is not disputed by anyone on this thread ….
    but we are debating about Jesus, and he himself told us that he came from above that he came down from heaven from where HE WAS BEFORE with God His FATHER….

    #871895
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Berean. Thanks for putting that succinctly. Gene has never understood that. Even after many years.

    #871896
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi Berean, unfortunately non-trinitarians like Mike, Proclaimer and others use the same text for negating your claim of Jesus’ divinity or as God.

    You lack understanding.

    God is a person. An identity. God is the Father of all.

    Jesus is not God. He is the son of God. He is the firstborn of God.

    It’s that simple. It is what scripture teaches.

    Where people get confused has to do with identity vs nature.

    As another example.

    ‘adam is the Hebrew word for ‘man’.

    So Eve was adam, but she is not Adam.

    In other words, she is part of mankind, but she is not Adam the first man.

    Adam is an identity. adam is a nature. Even can claim the latter. Adam can claim both. He is Adam (The Man) and he is adam (mankind).

    Eve is only one of these, not both.

    It’s like that with Jesus.

    He has divine nature, yes, because God is his Father. But he is no God himself.

    He is divine, but he is not THE divine.

    THE Logos was theos means, the Logos was divine.

    Then we read that he emptied himself, and came in the flesh.

    He took on human nature. Humbled himself before God. Obeyed God. Died and rose from the grave. And now is at the righthand of God interceding for us.

    #871898
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer…..A word , any word,  is not a person,  it is the EXPRESSIONS  of a person,  God’s Words express HIMSELF, they are not the expression of “ANYONE ELSE”,  but HIMSELF.  The exact same applies to all,  without exception,  no one is or CAN BE YOUR WORD, not now or ever can be. GOD the Father is ONE and His words are his and his alone.  If I or Jesus , “QUOTE” those words to you, or anyone else , those word are “NOT MY WORDS”, OR ANYONE ELSES WORDS, THEY ARE God the Father himself’s  words alone.   In the beginning the Spirit the Spirit who was GOD,  moved over the waters and “GOD” SAID,  “SPOKE HIS OWN WORDS” “let there be light and it was so”.  Jesus was not even there, nor was present either.

    you cannot separate God the Father from his own words, by saying it was Jesus speaking things into existence , that is one of the biggest lies ever told.

    peace and love to you and yours………..gene

    #871899
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene  

    IF I UNDEESTAND WELL WHAT YOU SAY …

    JOHN WOULD NOT USE THE WORD “HIM” in verse 3
    if it was the word that God speaks.
    Verse 3 of John 1 shows that it is a person …. no ???

    All things were made by HIM him; and without HIM was not any thing made that was made.

     

     

    #871900
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean……“the word was God” not Jesus , why?,  because GOD and his word are one and the same person,  “in “the” “beginning”  was the ‘word who was God,”. not Jesus ,  It was God the Father who said let there be light, not The “MAN” Jesus,  Jesus didn’t even exist then,  show us one scripture where Jesus ever said he himself created anything,  or God did anything “through” or by the power of Jesus .  People can’t even go to Jesus without the Father (GOD) drawing them to him, according to Jesus.

    But then again you truly do not believe Jesus, or what he himself said or you would already know that right?

    peace and love to you and yours………gene

    #871901
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer,  why don’t you understand the word GOD, is not “any person” it’s a “relationship” anyone can have with anything that exists.  The LORD our GOD, is Yehovah. Yehovah is the “PERSON” our GOD “IS”. 

    Peace and and love to you and yours………gene

    #871902
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    Gene,

    John 1:14 clearly identifies the Word as Jesus, who is the only begotten of the Father.

    “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.”

    #871903
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    Berean……“the word was God” not Jesus , why?,  because GOD and his word are one and the same person,  

    Me

    Gene, WE Can Never see thath in The Bible

    On the other hand, it is written in Revelation 19:13

    His eyes (OF Jesus)were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
    [13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  

     

    In Revelation 19:13 it is indeed about Jesus (his return to chatter the nations)

    His eyes (OF Jesus)were as a flame of fire, ….

    compare this passage with CHAPTER 1

    And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
    [13] And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
    [14] His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

     

    and his eyes were as a flame of fire;. 

    WE find this in CHAPTER 1 AND 19

    AND this about Jesus EYES…

    and his name is called The Word of God.  

     

    #871905
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Amen Danny.

    His NAME is The Word of God. He was in the beginning WITH God. It is written down in order for us to believe.

    Gene is free to believe this or reject it. His first line of defences however is the rejection of free will. So he cannot even choose to believe according to his own doctrine. Someone has done a number on him. His mind is imprisoned.

    #871906
    gadam123
    Participant

    Amen Danny.

    His NAME is The Word of God. He was in the beginning WITH God. It is written down in order for us to believe.

    Gene is free to believe this or reject it. His first line of defences however is the rejection of free will. So he cannot even choose to believe according to his own doctrine. Someone has done a number on him. His mind is imprisoned.

    It’s quite interesting to see that a non-trinitarians can say Amen to a Trinitarian’s post.

    I really feel sympathy for brother Gene as he is fighting a lone battle to defend his unitarian doctrines but it’s quite difficult here as the NT is diversity on the Christology than unity and it supports more on preexistence of Jesus than his mere human existence.

    This is the problem I visualize here.

    #871908
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    It’s quite interesting to see that a non-trinitarians can say Amen to a Trinitarian’s post.

    Let me educate you.  Saying ‘amen’ to something that someone said is a way to support what they said. It is not an agreement of things outside of what they said in that moment.

    #871909
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I really feel sympathy for brother Gene as he is fighting a lone battle to defend his unitarian doctrines but it’s quite difficult here as the NT is diversity on the Christology than unity and it supports more on preexistence of Jesus than his mere human existence.

    This is the problem I visualize here.

    Let’s apply some simple logic here. This is a forum. On planet earth, there are as many opinions as people. It is logical that a forum will draw people of opposing views on things to test them out. Iron sharpens iron. Of course, the longer debates usually involve people who are stubborn and are unable to learn. People in agreement rarely debate in a forum.

    Further, even among those who are in unity, there will still be people of varying maturity and wisdom.

    Here is God’s plan through the messiah. It is a process, not an instant fix.

     For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

    #871918
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I should also add that many here do not disagree with Gene over his view that there is one true God including myself. Yes Trinitarians will debate that.

    However, many disagree with gene over his doctrine about the origin and nature of the Son. He ignores many scriptures on this and regularly adds and takes away from the verses in question.

    #871922
    gadam123
    Participant

    Let me educate you.  Saying ‘amen’ to something that someone said is a way to support what they said. It is not an agreement of things outside of what they said in that moment.

    Hi Proclaimer, I like your honesty and I know that you are only agreeing to Danny on a particular comments on the  preexistence of Jesus.

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