John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 22,461 through 22,480 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #871561
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  Please note that it doesn’t say that YHVH took possession of me, it merely says that YHVH possessed me. There is a difference.

    There’s really not.  Nor is it even worth arguing about, since – as I’ve repeatedly showed you – the following verses make it ABUNDANTLY clear that the word means created, not possessed.  You can keep arguing for possessed until the cows come home, but it won’t change the fact that,

    23I was formed long ages ago,

    at the very beginning, when the world came to be.

    24When there were no watery depths, I was given birth,

    when there were no springs overflowing with water;

    25before the mountains were settled in place,

    before the hills, I was given birth

    Understand yet?  It doesn’t matter that you insist upon “possessed” in verse 22, because verses 23, 24 and 25 make it clear that whoever was “possessed” in 22 went through a process of being brought into existence.

    So Kathi, given that we know that the word could mean “possessed”, “acquired”, or “created” – which one of those 3 aligns better with “I was given birth”?  And does insisting upon “possessed” somehow change the fact that this person was “given birth”?

    Like I said, it’s not really worth arguing over.

    #871562
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: You seem to believe that only one person is both God of gods as well as Lord of lords. Why do you disagree with Paul in 1 Cor 8:6 who says that we have one God and one Lord and they are two persons?

    Kathi, do you really think Paul was saying that the Father isn’t also our Lord?

    #871563
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer:  So for us believers there is one God the Father and one lord, the Lord Jesus Christ.

    But for LU, there is one God the Father Son and Spirit. And one Lord, the Father, Jesus, and Spirit.

    Did I crack the formula this time?

    👍👍👍

     

    #871564
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: If I said this:

    One father + one mother + one son = Fred, Wilma, and Bambam

    and all are identified as the Flintstones,

    would you understand that the Father is “Fred” and the mother is “Wilma” and the son is “BamBam?”

    Fred and Wilma’s child was Pebbles, not BamBam.  He was the son of Barney and Betty Rubble. 😉

    But where your analogy fails is in the PLURAL word “Flintstones”.  The “s” on the end tells us that we are talking about more than one person.

    LU: The Father is the One God, the Son is the One Lord, and the Spirit is the One Spirit, and all are identified as YHVH.

    See how your “YHVH” lacks the “s” on the end?  You preach “the YHVHs” (like “the Flintstones”), but then you identify THEM as a singular YHVH, and use singular verbs and pronouns.

    Can you see what we’re calling out here?  We wouldn’t say, “The Flintstones got in HIS car and went to the drive in where HE ordered ribs and HIS dino-dog ripped a hole in the roof of HIS car.”

    Similarly, we never hear you say, “The YHVHs sent HIS angel because HE was angry at the Romans” – or whatever.

    The Bible ALWAYS identifies God with SINGULAR pronouns and verbs.  But PLURAL families (the Flintstones) or entities (the YHVHs) would not be characterized with singular verbs and pronouns.

    We say the Flintstones got in THEIR car, not HIS car.  Similarly, if there was such a thing as “the YHVHs”, we’d say that THEY sent THEIR angel, not HE sent HIS angel.

    #871565
    Berean
    Participant

    HI MIKE

    He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another.

     

    The truth IS That God created all THINGS BY HIS  ONLY BEGOTTEN SON

     

     

     

    #871566
    Berean
    Participant

    Excuse me Mike

     

    HELLO MIKE

    He who creates is one, and he by whom the thing is created is another.

    You misinterpret the word of God….

    THE TRUTH IS THAT GOD CREATED ALL THINGS BY HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON.

     

    #871567
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    In your tabletop example, Tater’s “up in the sky/OVERHEAD” is the floor – not the table. From his “upside down” perspective, he would never look down at his feet and say, “Hey, look at that table top ABOVE me and OVER MY HEAD!”

    God is above the whole universe. Not even the universe can contain him. Above is not in one direction. Only in the sense of gravity from your reference frame.

    For example: God is above the bottom of a soccer ball sitting on the pavement. But you are saying he is not above that part of the soccer ball and nor is he above that ant crawling on that part of the ball. If not, then how is he God of all?

    #871568
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: THE TRUTH IS THAT GOD CREATED ALL THINGS BY HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON.

    Can you explain what that means?  Did “God” create?  Or did “His only begotten Son” create?  Which one?  I mean, who should I identify as my Creator?  The Bible only mentions “Creator” – not “Creators”.  So which of the two is the Bible talking about when they say “Creator”?

    (If you need help deciding, re-read the prayer in Acts 4 again, where the apostles of Jesus pray TO the one who actually DID create the heaven, the earth, the sea, and EVERYTHING in them. And then they identify Jesus – not AS that Creator to whom they were praying – but as the holy servant OF that Creator.)

    Berean, who did Jesus’ apostles think the Creator was?  Perhaps you know more about it than they did?

    But wait… now that I think about it, they did address that Creator as “Sovereign Lord”… and Kathi says that Jesus ALONE is our Lord, right?  So that settles it then.  Right in the middle of the apostle’s prayer TO our Creator Lord Jesus, they identified Jesus as the holy servant OF our Creator Lord Jesus.  Now it all makes sense. 😉

     

     

    #871570
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer: God is above the bottom of a soccer ball sitting on the pavement.

    Congratulations!  You’ve made it to a level of nonsensical double-talk usually reserved only for Trinitarians.  If you’re going to butt in, at least address my actual premise of PEOPLE on opposite sides of a ball earth each looking up into the sky to where God resides.

    Proclaimer:  If not, then how is he God of all?

    That is a non-sequitur. Again, stick to the premise or butt back out.

    Ezekiel 1:22, 25-26

    Spread out above the heads of the living creatures was what looked something like a vault, sparkling like crystal, and awesome… Then there came a voice from above the vault over their heads as they stood with lowered wings. Above the vault over their heads was what looked like a throne of lapis lazuli, and high above on the throne was a figure like that of a man.

    In case you didn’t know, the word “above” in this context means “over one’s head”.  Notice that God’s throne is above the firmament that was above the heads of the creatures who were lifted UP from the earth.  Notice that the firmament was like crystal – not a “vacuum of space”.

    So where is this firmament?  ABOVE us – which means OVER OUR HEADS.  Where is God’s throne?  Sitting upon this firmament which is ABOVE us – which means OVER OUR HEADS.

    Luke 18:13

    “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ “

    Where is heaven?  UP, which means ABOVE us, which means OVER OUR HEADS.

    My question to LU was: How can heaven and God’s throne be UP/ABOVE YOU/OVER YOUR HEAD at the same time it is UP/ABOVE ME/OVER MY HEAD if we live on opposite sides of a ball?

    #871573
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Congratulations!  You’ve made it to a level of nonsensical double-talk usually reserved only for Trinitarians.  If you’re going to butt in, at least address my actual premise of PEOPLE on opposite sides of a ball earth each looking up into the sky to where God resides.

    It was addressed perfectly and you know it. That is why you got a bit upset.

    God is above all, even above the ant near the bottom side of a soccer ball in both Arizona and New Zealand. This equates to your example of people in New Zealand on a globe. And why is New Zealand below and America above? Because civilisations in Europe put themselves at the top. Early Chinese compasses were actually oriented to point south. South is not below and north above in reality. I feel like I’m sitting at the top of the world in my reference frame here in New Zealand.

    If God is only above that which is on one referenced flat plain, then who is the God of all the things that inhabit the other side of things that are essentially below in the same reference frame? In fact, who is the God of the surface under the earth dome?

    It’s common sense that God is in the highest dimension. It is also common sense that if God created the universe, then he is above the whole thing. It makes zero difference how many dimensions the universe has. God is above that. Just because you can’t draw it doesn’t mean it isn’t this way. A piece of paper or a video is 2 dimensional. I think this is where you trip up.

    So where is this firmament?  ABOVE us – which means OVER OUR HEADS.  Where is God’s throne?  Sitting upon this firmament which is ABOVE us – which means OVER OUR HEADS.

    In the spirit realm. First the physical then the spiritual. Preschool then university. The spiritual realm is a higher realm or dimension. Heaven is higher than Eden and the Earth.

    If we take a God centric view instead of an earth centric view, then God is at the top. And all 3 dimensional objects, four dimensional objects, 5 dimensional objects etc are below him.

    #871574
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    There is a flat earth topic where we can continue this debate if you are interested.

    #871575
    gadam123
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    Sorry, I am not interested in the cut and paste novels you keep posting. Use your own words to tell me why Prov 8:22 is cannot possibly be talking about an actual person.

    I have already replied your post on Prov 8:22-31. The question is not about cut and paste which was very well done by the NT writers who had used bits and parts of the Hebrew scriptures to suit their ideas. Yes I am using my own words here. Your strange ideas of interpreting Hebrew scriptures especially Prov 8:22-31 is not new to Christian ideology. But it (quoting Prov 8: 22-31) was not found even in the NT writings. It was first invented by the Alexandrian priest Arius to prove Jesus’ origins in the beginning as a first creation of God. I am not going to buy such strange ideas which were even negated by the Church fathers in the history of Christianity.

    Sorry I don’t want any further arguments on this Arian controversy here with me.

    #871576
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Fred and Wilma’s child was Pebbles, not BamBam.  He was the son of Barney and Betty Rubble.

    Good to see we both agree on this very serious point.

    I use to love that program when I was a kid. That and The Jetsons. The stone age and the space age.

    #871579
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike…..Your reasoning, of who is the actual creator of all things ,  and who is the only true God , is exactly right brother.  IMO, and I Like the way you use sound reasoning on these issues. I do agree with them.

    peace and love to you and yours…………gene 

     

    #871580
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    About Jesus Paul wrote :

    Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
    [13] Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
    [14] In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

    [15] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 

    [16] For 👈

    👉by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
    [17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
    [18] And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence

     

    God bless

     

    #871589
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean …..I realize Jesus is your God, and you worship him as such,   but he is not my God, I have a God and it’s the same God , Jesus has.   Thank you for your concern though.

    peace and love to you and yours……..gene

    #871590
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    ADAM……Scripture that say “the word of God became flesh” is one of the most misunderstood scriptures in our text for several reasons,  one is a very simple to understand , because a word is an expression of intellect, it has nothing to do with flesh, words never has and never will have either , words are spirit according to Jesus.
    “Jesus said the words I am telling you. Are “NOT” MY WORDS, but the words of him that sent me”.  Now if that alone doesn’t prove to them,  the “FLESH MAN”, Jesus is not the word of God. Perhaps understanding what John was actually saying might,  he was saying this , ‘and “the word “Of” God, became flesh”  ,  what came to be flesh?, was it the flesh man Jesus,  or was it the Word of God which is Spirit, that became flesh? No, it was the ‘FLESH MAN JESUS, that came into being, not the word of God , but the fulfillment of the word of God that came to be.

    This should be understood as John saying ” God’s prophesied word came to pass or into being , it was the “Flesh man Jesus “.   Just that simple.  Trinitarian’s translators have completely twisted up the truth that was being expressed there. As they have many other scriptures also. 

    NO one is Gods word, but God the Father “himself”. , no prophet is Gods word ether, but  speaks  God the fathers words to us, Jesus was a prophet, who spoke, God The Fathers words to us,just, as the other prophets did also.
    All these false teachers here trying to make Jesus out to be a Spirit God, instead of a “flesh human being” are liars and will not be accepted now or later by Jesus or God the Father.  unless they repent IMO.

    Peace and love to you and yours Adam……gene

     

    #871591
    gadam123
    Participant

    ADAM……Scripture that say “the word of God became flesh” is one of the most misunderstood scriptures in our text for several reasons,  one is a very simple to understand , because a word is an expression of intellect, it has nothing to do with flesh, words never has and never will have either , words are spirit according to Jesus.
    “Jesus said the words I am telling you. Are “NOT” MY WORDS, but the words of him that sent me”.  Now if that alone doesn’t prove to them,  the “FLESH MAN”, Jesus is not the word of God. Perhaps understanding what John was actually saying might,  he was saying this , ‘and “the word “Of” God, became flesh”  ,  what came to be flesh?, was it the flesh man Jesus,  or was it the Word of God which is Spirit, that became flesh? No, it was the ‘FLESH MAN JESUS, that came into being, not the word of God , but the fulfillment of the word of God that came to be.

    Hello brother Gene, I appreciate your post to me on John 1:1 about the “Word”. In fact the poetical narration of this writer of Fourth Gospel wanted to place Jesus, the supposed Messiah along with God in the beginning by comparing him with the “Word” which was involved in God’s creation in the beginning. This imagination of this writer caused Christianity to interpret Jesus as God who was with God in the beginning. If we see the basic aim of this writer in this Gospel as per John 20:

    31 But these are written so that you may come to believe[d] that Jesus is the Messiah,[e] the Son of God, and that through believing you may have life in his name.

    He wanted to convince his Jewish audience that Jesus was the Messiah but the chapter 1 proved other than that. His Gospel became the source of claiming Jesus’ divinity. No Jew or Hebrew will agree with this writer’s views on Messiah that he would be involved in God’s creation and would be called divine. This is the problem with the NT writers.

    Thanks and peace to you…..Adam

     

    #871592
    Berean
    Participant

    Gadam

    No Jew or Hebrew will agree with this writer’s views on Messiah that he would be involved in God’s creation and would called divine. This is the problem with the NT writers. 

    This IS WHY THEY CRUCIFIED JESUS

    THE ONLY BEGOTTEN DIVIN SON OF GOD MADE FLESH FOR US.

    CAME FROM HEAVEN

     

     

    #871593
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gadam,

    YOU:He wanted to convince his Jewish audience that Jesus was the Messiah but the chapter 1 proved other than that. His Gospel became the source of claiming Jesus’ divinity.

    No Jew or Hebrew will agree with this writer’s views on Messiah that he would be involved in God’s creation and would be called divine.

    This is the problem with the NT writers.

    ME:  THE PROBLEM IS WITH THE JEWS AND THE HEBREWS, TO REMAIN STAGNATED TOTALLY CARNAL-MINDED PEOPLE AND STILL EXPECTING ONLY AN EARTHLY TRANSIENT  REDEEMER.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

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