John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 22,441 through 22,460 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #871278
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Proclaimer,

    I believe that the trinity calls the Spirit a third person. I don’t follow that belief.

    #871286
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Berean,

    I love your songs, so worshipful! Are you musical as well?

    Keep them coming, LU

    Hi LU

    I’m glad you enjoy it so much …. but I’m not a musician so far, I would like to, but I love music and spiritual songs that lift the soul to our God.

    Have a good day

     

    #871308
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    Hi Adam,

    But why other NT writings deviated from this conviction of Jesus?

    They didn’t. OT and NT is a harmony.
    Stop attacking the Bible.

    #871328
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @Proclaimer,

    If I said this:

    One father + one mother + one son = Fred, Wilma, and Bambam

    and all are identified as the Flintstones,

    would you understand that the Father is “Fred” and the mother is “Wilma” and the son is “BamBam?”

    Maybe New Zealand didn’t have “the Flintstones” when you were young but in the States, it was a popular cartoon.

    So, I repeat my recent post to see if you can get the message a little better:

    The Father + The Son + The Spirit = One God, One Lord, and One Spirit. All are identified as YHVH.

    The Father is the One God, the Son is the One Lord, and the Spirit is the One Spirit, and all are identified as YHVH.

     

    #871337
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Adam,

    You asked Danny Dabbs this:

    But why other NT writings deviated from this conviction of Jesus?

    I believe that was referring the first commandment to love the LORD (YHVH) your God with all your heart, soul, and mind.

    If you knew YHVH as our One God and our One Lord, you would understand that we are to love both our One God and our One Lord, Father and Son. The Father is our One God and the Son is our One Lord. YHVH is both our God and Lord, not just our God.

    Take care, LU

    #871340
    gadam123
    Participant

    Hi Sis Kathi,

    I believe that was referring the first commandment to love the LORD (YHVH) your God with all your heart, soul, and mind.

    If you knew YHVH as our One God and our One Lord, you would understand that we are to love both our One God and our One Lord, Father and Son. The Father is our One God and the Son is our One Lord. YHVH is both our God and Lord, not just our God.

    Thanks for your reply to my post. Yes Jesus was quoting first commandment to love the Lord (Yahweh) and Yahweh alone is the One ‘God of gods’ and One ‘Lord of lords’ as per Deut 10:17.

    But the inclusion of Jesus the supposed Messiah as One Lord  by the NT or even God as claimed by most of the Christianity is foreign to the Hebrew Bible. This is where I am struck up.

    Thanks and peace to you…..Adam

    #871345
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Adam,

    The Bible for the Hebrews is the OT AND the NT. It is not just the OT. The story of the NT was written to the Jew first and then also to the Gentiles.

    Blessings, LU

    #871346
    gadam123
    Participant

    The Bible for the Hebrews is the OT AND the NT. It is not just the OT. The story of the NT was written to the Jew first and then also to the Gentiles.

    I know sister the NT was written for Christian believers from both Jews and Gentiles. But my arguments are on how the NT deviated from its original source the Hebrew Bible on the concepts of God and Messiah.

    #871347
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Adam,

    The NT was written to all people, including unbelieving Jews and Gentiles.

    Have you read or listened to anything Rabbi Jonathan Bernis has written or spoke about?

    You might want to look at his books and videos.

    I hope it helps, LU

     

    l

    #871352
    gadam123
    Participant

    Hi Sis Kathi,

    The NT was written to all people, including unbelieving Jews and Gentiles.

    Have you read or listened to anything Rabbi Jonathan Bernis has written or spoke about?

    Thanks for your post to me on Rabbi Jonathan Bernis. I am sorry to say that he is a Messianic Jew who fully support the idea of Trinity. Here is his statement of faith;

    What We Believe

    The Bible
    We believe the Bible, composed of the Tanakh (Old Testament) and the Brit Hadashah (New Testament), is the only infallible and authoritative Word of God.
    2 Timothy 3:15-17, Romans 15:4; 2 Peter 1:19-21, Hebrews 4:2, Ephesians 6:17

    God Is One
    We believe God is One (echad), as declared in the Shema, the core Jewish prayer drawn from Deuteronomy 6:4-9. The word echad means “a united one” or “compound unity”; this compound unity is eternally existent in three co-equal, indivisible persons – God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit.
    Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 48:16-17, 1 John 5:7-13

    Yeshua (Jesus) is God
    We believe that Jesus is the Messiah (Yeshua HaMashiach), God Himself in the form of man. We believe He was miraculously born from a virgin as Scripture prophesied, and that His virgin birth was to be a sign to Israel of His Messiahship.
    Genesis 3:15, Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 9:6-7, Matthew 1:22-23

    I can’t get any thing from this group called Messianic Jews who are purely Trinitarian Christians in disguise of Jewishness.

    #871414
    gadam123
    Participant

    Born Before All?

    For whenever people ask about pre-existence, faced with the questionable nature of their life and the fragility of the world, they are asking about the beginning of all beginnings, about the foundation of all foundations, about the origin of all the origins of time, history and the cosmos. Hiding behind this
    theological technical term ‘pre-existence’ is none other than a search for what existed ‘before all time’, what was at the beginning of all existence, what underlies all reality. So pre-existence is a key concept in the enquiry into the basic principle of reality. Do not those who know the beginning also know the whole story? Do not those who know the origin also know the end? Do not those who know something from the beginning of all reality also know the basic law by which this reality is structured? ‘Pre-existence’ is certainly a technical term, but a primal question of existence underlies it.

    The scene changes. In the year 30 by our reckoning a young Jew dies in Jerusalem – condemned on the authority of the Roman emperor, crying aloud in the agonizing death of a criminal on the cross. If we follow the account in the Second Gospel, he dies with a feeling of having been abandoned by God, his God. A good fifty years later it will be said of this Nazarene that he is the ‘image of the invisible God’, that ‘all things were created in him’ -‘in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, thrones and dominations, powers and authorities’. He is the ‘radiance’ of the glory of God, the ‘image’ of God’s being; he supports the universe by his mighty Word…

    We go yet further. Around 300 years later (in 325), by virtue of the same Roman authority, in the emperor’s summer palace in Nicaea, not far from the capital Constantinople, a church assembly attended by around 300 bishops asserts of this Jew that he is of the ‘nature’ of God the Father, ‘God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God’. He is ‘begotten, not made’, ‘of one substance with the Father’ and through him all things in heaven and on earth were made. At the same time all those who say ‘there was a time when he was not’ or ‘he did not exist before he was begotten’, or ‘he came into being from nothing’ are threatened with exclusion from the Catholic Church. And yet again, a good sixty years later, a subsequent assembly of the church held in Constantinople (in 381) would add that he was ‘born of the Father before all time’, before finally, another seventy years later, the universal Council of Chalcedon (451) would coin the famous formula vere Deus – vere homo, true God, true man, and say of this Christ: ‘The self same consubstantial with the Father according to the Godhead, the self same consubstantial with us according to the manhood… before all time he was begotten of the Father as to his Godhead, but in the last days the self same, for us and for our salvation, was born of Mary, the Virgin, the bearer of God, as to his manhood.’

    On the one hand a criminal’s death on the cross and on the other the confession of him as Son of God and being of one substance with God; on the one hand the existence of a Jew in the province of Galilee in his time and on the other belief in his pre-existence in God’s eternity: how is it possible to believe that? How is it possible to believe the assertion that in this Jew that which holds the world together in its innermost heart has become visible; that in him what supports the universe has been made manifest, that in him can
    be detected what rests at the foundation of reality; indeed, that he himself is in the origin, the beginning of all things, that he himself is the Word in person, is meaning in human form; that he himself is the power, the liberating act of the creator – he, and nothing and no one else? How is it possible to believe that without sacrificing reason for an impenetrable riddle? How is it possible to understand something which seems so nonsensical: ‘Is an uneducated manual worker from the despised people of the Jews, condemned by the state authorities to a humiliating death, to be the divine revealer of the truth of God and the coming judge of the worlds?’ ‘Pre-existence’ may indeed be a technical term, but a basic Christian question underlies it.

    So the ‘Word’ was in the beginning with God and Word was God. This is the myth revolves round around in our Forums and debates with never ending mode.

    #871415
    Berean
    Participant

    Gadam

    So the ‘Word’ was in the beginning with God and Word was God. This is the myth revolves round around in our Forums and debates with never ending mode.

     

    You will soon realize that this is not a myth

    BUT THE TRUTH

     For in him (CHRIST)dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.(Col.2:9)

     

     

     

    #871442
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gadam,

    YOU: The scene changes. In the year 30 by our reckoning a young Jew dies in Jerusalem – condemned on the authority of the Roman emperor, crying aloud in the agonizing death of a criminal on the cross. If we follow the account in the Second Gospel, he dies with a feeling of having been

    abandoned by God, his God. 

    ME: What is the reason that Jesus, seconds away from death, shouted such words?

    If God, THE LIFE remained in Jesus, could DEATH have ever happened to Jesus? Considering the fact also that Satan, up to that moment in time had the empire of death and was about to take Jesus soul to hell as a criminal?

    Also, God abides not where Satan works, the fact that from the ninth hour darkness/Satan was over the WHOLE earth, waiting for God to abandon Jesus.   Well clear hereunder:

    Matthew 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was DARKNESS over the WHOLE earth, until the ninth hour.

     46And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying: Eli, Eli, lamma sabacthani?

    that is, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

    What do the above words confirm by Jesus, when one looks from God’s perspective? This is hinted out in

    John13:3 Knowing that the Father had given him

    all things into his hands,

    and that he came from God, and goeth to God; 

    As clear as crystal, Jesus was aware that HE HAD FULL POWER  TO ENCOUNTER SATAN, EVEN ON HIS DEATH!

    …..for my strength is made perfect in weakness….

    JESUS WAS A HUMAN IN ALL THINGS LIKE HIS BRETHREN, AND DESPITE HE WAS AWARE THAT HIS FLESH BODY WOULD NEVER DIE OUR KIND OF DEATH SINCE

    HE ALREADY SPIRITUALIZED HIS FLESH BODY, AND DEATH HAS NO POWER OVER THE SPIRIT, FLESH COUNTS FOR NOTHING, THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE, THUS ONCE JESUS’ FLESH WAS SPIRITUALIZED, IT COULD NEVER CORRODE, IT SIMPLY TRANSFORMED ITSELF INTO A NEW SUBSTANCE, THE SPIRITULFLESH SUBSTANCE, ETERNAL LIFE OF THE FLESH, BUT IT HAD TO BE ACCOMPLISHED THROUGH  DEATH IN ORDER TO DESTROY PRECISELY SATAN, WHO HAD THE EMPIRE OF DEATH, THUS JESUS TRANSFORMED DEATH INTO LIFE FOR THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, MORE PRECISE FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN HIM!

    Asserted 5:24 Amen, amen I say unto you, that he who heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath life everlasting; and cometh not into judgment,

    but is passed from death to life

    NEVERTHELESS, JESUS STILL FELT SOMEHOW THAT HORRIBLE MOMENT OF ABANDONMENT. PLUS THAT HE HAD TO FULFILL Psalm 22. Where the second part of the psalm is a hymn of thanksgiving to God, who has heard the psalmist’s prayer.

    John 19:28 Afterwards, (when God left Jesus)  Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, said:

    I thirst. 

    IT SEEMS SATAN HESITATED FOR A WHILE and never respected his own fundamental procedure associated with criminals and take Jesus’soul to hell; God made him aware of his evident defeat and the end of his delusion TO BE LIKE THE MOST HIGH.

    It is enough for the …..the servant to be as his lord.

    29Now there was a vessel set there full of vinegar. And they, putting a sponge full of vinegar and hyssop, put it to his mouth. 30Jesus therefore, when he had taken the vinegar, said:

    It is consummated. (SATAN BY FORCE ENTERED JESUS’ SOUL MANIFESTED IN THE VINEGAR) And bowing his head, he gave up the ghost.(THE HOLY GHOST IN JESUS’SOUL, JESUS’ DIVINE NATURE) 

    Once Jesus took the vinegar, it was the end of Satan. On the other hand Jesus, immediately on His death, “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, GLORIFIED ONE SUBSTANCE BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH IN THE HOLY GHOST

    TWO IN ONE FLESH IN

    JESUS CHRIST 

    GODMAN

    Well asserted in

    John13:31 When he therefore was gone out, Jesus said:

    Now is the Son of man glorified, and GOD IS GLORIFIED IN HIM. (GOD BECAME MAN IN JESUS) 

    32If God be glorified in him, (IN THE SON OF MAN) 

    God also will glorify him( THE SON OF MAN)  IN HIMSELF; (IN GOD)

    and immediately will he glorify him. 

    ON HIS DEATH!!!

    LIGHT SHINES IN DARKNESS AND DARKNESS COMPREHENDED NOT.

    Genesis 1:2 And the earth was void and empty,

    and DARKNESS was upon the face of the deep, and the spirit of God moved over the waters.

    3And God said: Be light made. And light was made. 4And God saw the light that it was good;

    and he divided the light from the darkness. 

    God in the scripture above predicted Jesus’glory and superiority, THE LIGHT, and LIFE, over Satan, THE DARKNESS, and DEATH, and as much as in

    Genesis 1:2 the world was void and empty of any kind of life, and darkness/SATAN, was UPON THE FACE OF THE DEEP/HELL, ON JESUS DEATH, THE WORLD WAS VOID AND EMPTY OF LIFE, ALL DEAD THROUGH SIN, AND DARKNESS/SATAN FROM THE SIXTH HOUR WAS OVER THE WHOLE EARTH WAITING TO ERADICATE HIMSELF  FROM THE ENTIRE PROCESS OF THE WORLD, AND HIS  DELIBERATE POSSESSION OF SOULS THROUGH SIN IN THE FLESH. THE SPIRIT OF GOD IN

    GENESIS 1:2 MOVED OVER THE WATERS  OF THE FIRST-EVER DELUGE CAUSED BY LUCIFER WHEN HE KICKED STARTED HIS REBELLION AND DESTROYED THIS PLANET, PSALM 18,  LIKEWISE FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE ADAM’S FALL, ON THIS PLANET, CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN THE WATER OF LIFE  IN THE SPIRIT OF GOD IN CHRIST, AND FLOODED THE  EARTH BY WHICH HE RECREATED ANEW ALL PURIFIED AND GAVE LIFE TO THE WORLD;  TOMBS WERE OPENED AND SAINTS CAME BACK TO LIFE.

    IN GENESIS 1:2 IT WAS THE END OF THE FIRST CREATION OF THE HEAVENLY REALMS  AND THE BEGINNING OF THE HUMAN CREATION IN THE FLESH AND BLOOD OF THIS WORLD, WHERE GOD ALL-KNOWING, “THE WORD” MADE FLESH JESUS, THE SON OF MAN TO BE, WAS SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD Rev.13:8, LIKEWISE ON JESUS’ DEATH IT WAS THE END OF THE CREATION OF THE FLESH AND BLOOD, AND THE BEGINNING OF THE NEW ETERNAL CREATION OF ALL SOULS, AND JESUS ON THE CROSS WAS ALSO SLAIN LIKE A LAMB. READING

    GENESIS 1:3 God said: Be light made. And light was made. 4And God saw

    the light that it was good;

    and he divided the light from the darkness. 

    LIKEWISE, ON JESUS DEATH ON THE CROSS GOD SAID BE LIGHT MADE, AND LIGHT WAS MADE.

    And God saw the light that it was good;

    Well predicted by Jesus in Luke 17:22 And he said to his disciples: The days will come, when you shall desire

    to see ONE day of the Son of man;

    DURING THE FORTY DAYS HE REMAINED ON EARTH AFTER HIS DEATH!                 

    and you shall not see it. 23And they will say to you: See here, and see there. Go ye not after, nor follow them:

     24For as the lightning that lighteneth from under heaven,

    shineth unto the parts that are under heaven,

    so shall the Son of man be in his day. 

    GLORIFIED ON HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS!

    GODMAN!

    And as in Genesis 1:3 …. he DIVIDED the light from the darkness.

    God on Jesus death also DID THE SAME  manifested in

    the SPLITTING  OF THE CURTAIN, and

    JESUS’HEART BY THE LANCE.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #871448
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Adam,

    You said:

    I can’t get any thing from this group called Messianic Jews who are purely Trinitarian Christians in disguise of Jewishness.

    I think it would be very wise for you to look to people who are Jewish that didn’t used to follow Jesus as the Messiah but changed to become followers of Jesus as the Messiah.

    Also, I am not convinced that you are a skeptic. You seem to have already made up your mind about whether Jesus is the Jewish Messiah or not because you call the stories in the NT myths. I think I remember that you said that Jesus is your Lord and Savior. Why do you say that when you don’t believe that the NT is the Word of God? You seem more like an actor who is trying to act like a skeptic but you are not really skeptical when you call the stories about the deity of Christ as myths.

    #871555
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    gadam: Again you are struck at this passage in Prov 8.

    Sorry, I am not interested in the cut and paste novels you keep posting.  Use your own words to tell me why Prov 8:22 is cannot possibly be talking about an actual person.

    #871556
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean:  You says That JESUS Never created anything…..!?

    Colossians 1:12-18

    Give thanks to the Father (God) who brought us together….

    For by him (Jesus) were created all things that are in the heavens and on the earth…

    While I’m happy to see that you are correctly identifying (Jesus) as someone other than (God), I’ve already showed you that the word “by” in the KJV doesn’t mean what you seem to think it does.  I even gave an example of Bill sending a letter to Sally BY mail.  That doesn’t mean that “mail” wrote the letter and went through the motions to send it to Sally.  It means that Bill sent the letter THROUGH the mail.

    Hebrews 1:1-2

    God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds…

    See if you can follow this simple logic.  You think that the phrase “BY whom he made the worlds” means that Jesus is the one who made the worlds, right?  By that same logic then, you must also think that “spoken to us BY his Son” means that Jesus was the ORIGINATOR of the words of God that he spoke.  And since that is the case, you have no choice but to accept that “BY the prophets” means that the prophets were also the ORIGINATORS of the words of God that they spoke in the past.

    On the other hand, if you know that it was GOD who spoke unto the fathers THROUGH (of BY MEANS OF) the prophets in the past, then you also can understand that GOD spoke THROUGH Jesus in the latter days, and that GOD is the one who made the worlds THROUGH his holy servant Jesus.

    So my suggestion is that you forget about the KJV’s use of the word “by” (which literally means “through”, or “by means of”), because it confuses you.  When you see that word “by” in the KJV, just swap it in your mind for “through”, and you’ll be okay.

    Consider the same two verses from the 100+ Trinitarian scholars who produced the NIV…

    In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

    Do you see it now?  The word “by” and “through” are interchangeable, because the word “by” in this case simply means “by means of”, which means exactly the same thing as “through”.  So when you see “by” in the KJV, just think “through”.

    Now, I’ve challenged you to show a scripture that says Jesus created anything at all.  There are countless times in scripture where it is said, “God made…”, or “God created…”, etc.  Find me a verse in scripture that says “Jesus made…” or “Jesus created…”.  Because as Eusebius pointed out centuries ago…

    He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another.

     

     

    #871557
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike:  At what point was Jesus ever lesser than the other Davidic kings so that he had to have God place him higher than them? 

    LU: Philippians 2:

    7but emptied Himself,

    taking the form of a servant,

    being made in human likeness.

    The Davidic kings were also human beings.  I’m asking when Jesus was ever lesser than (not equal to) those Davidic kings so that God had to place him higher than them? Even as a human on earth, Jesus said, “What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?”

    “The son of David,” they replied.

    He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him ‘Lord’? For he says,

    “ ‘The Lord said to my Lord:

    “Sit at my right hand

    until I put your enemies

    under your feet.” ’

    If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?” No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.

    So even in his humanity, Jesus was higher than King David – the greatest of the Davidic kings, right?  So at what point was he lesser than the Davidic kings so that God had to place him above them?  Is it possible that your “Davidic king” understanding is simply erroneous?

    Mike: Now, can that be said in any circumstance about God Himself?

    LU: It isn’t said about God the Father but it is said about the Son whom the Father identifies as YHVH who laid the foundation of the earth…

    The bolded words are the only ones we need. (The rest is all a purposeful misinterpretation of clear scripture to push an unscriptural story.)  All we need to know is that, NO, it can never be said about God Himself that He was once lower than anyone at all, so that He had to be placed above those people.  It can and is said about Jesus, which means Jesus can’t possibly be God.

    #871558
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: YHVH the Son, was made lower than the angels when He emptied Himself and became a bondservant. After His resurrection, His Father exalted Him over all things in heaven and on earth, including the angels. See my last post.

    There is no such thing as “YHVH the Son”.  And Jesus – as a human – said he could call 10,000 angels down to take his place or fight for him, right?  So was he really lower than them?  Let’s assume that, as a human being, he was.  Okay.  Has God ever, at any time, been lower than the angels He created?  No. Ipso facto, Jesus is not God.

    It’s absolutely silly to think that God Himself could become less than the angels He created, and then go back to being above them as God again.

    And btw, Jesus is most definitely an angel of God, by definition.  An “angel” is a spirit messenger of God.  Rev 1:1 makes it clear that Jesus is a spirit messenger of his and our God.  Therefore, Jesus is an angel of his and our God.

    #871559
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike:  If you can tell me how God is “above” both me in Arizona and Tater in NZ at the same time, then I might read your article.

    LU: If I stick pins straight into a globe in every nation, and put the globe under a tabletop, the tabletop is above the globe and all its pins at the same time, the floor is not above the globe and all its pins or even any of its pins. The table is above the whole globe.

    The pins (Inhabitants) in Arizona and NZ are both on the globe and the table top in my example is over the whole globe. The table top is above all the pins “inhabitants” in the globe, even if the pins are standing on their heads or doing cartwheels.

    Really?

    Screenshot (158)

    The word “above” apparently means something different to you than it does to normal people.  To us, it means things that are “in the sky: OVERHEAD“.  How can God be up in the sky over Phoenix while he’s also up in the sky over NZ?

    In your tabletop example, Tater’s “up in the sky/OVERHEAD” is the floor – not the table.  From his “upside down” perspective, he would never look down at his feet and say, “Hey, look at that table top ABOVE me and OVER MY HEAD!”

    #871560
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: I just showed you that there is a genitive of subordination. Wallace is a Greek scholar.

    No, you showed me where a Trinitarian claimed that there is a “genitive of subordination”.  How is it marked in the Greek language?  Is there a special dot or line attached to the normal genitive form of the Greek word that makes it clear that this particular genitive is a “genitive of subordination”?  And why did no Bible scholar or translator in the past know about this “genitive of subordination” in Col 1:15?  Only the most recent English translations have “over” instead of “of”, right?  Is this a recent discovery of some marking in the ancient Greek language or something?

    While I wait for you to actually SHOW these things to me (instead of simply making a claim), I’ll point out once again that Jesus is “the beginning of the creation by God” and the “firstborn of every creature” whose “origin is from the distant past” BECAUSE “the LORD created him as the first of His works”.

    Now, you’ve had your fun trying to nonsensically twist all the most natural and straightforward meanings of those 4 verses that align beautifully, but may I also remind you that Jesus is the SON of God, and that sons have beginnings – otherwise they’re not sons of anyone?  Can I remind you that God Himself said, “This day I have begotten you” – meaning there was a day when Jesus was not, and then a day when Jesus was?  Can I remind you that the very word “firstborn” in the text you are trying to argue your way out of right now is a huge clue – since an entity who has existed from eternity would never have the term “firstborn” associated with him in any way?

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