John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 22,481 through 22,500 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #871611
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Proclaimer and Adam,

    The Father + The Son + The Spirit = One God, One Lord, and One Spirit. All are identified as YHVH.

    The Father alone is not One God, One Lord, and One Spirit.

    So you are a Trinitarian then.

    Except you do not believe that the Spirit is a person, thus making you a heretic in the eyes of Trinitarian authority.

    So you are a Trinitarian heretic.

    Neither those who believe in the one true God can accept your doctrine and neither can the Trinitarian accept you.

    Think for a minute. What are the chances that you are the only one right? You would even need to correct Jesus because he believed and taught different to you.

    #871612
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The Father alone is not One God

    yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

    Your not US are you LU?

    #871614
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    ADAM……Scripture that say “the word of God became flesh” is one of the most misunderstood scriptures in our text for several reasons,  one is a very simple to understand , because a word is an expression of intellect, it has nothing to do with flesh, words never has and never will have either , words are spirit according to Jesus.
    “Jesus said the words I am telling you. Are “NOT” MY WORDS, but the words of him that sent me”.

    You argue this way because you really cannot differentiate between an attribute and a person. Just like truth and light,  there is the one who is The Truth and the Life. The Logos is like that. It is an attribute of God and it is a person, the first to be with God.

    And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called THE WORD OF GOD.

    I understand that gadam doesn’t believe in the New Testament and I can respect that because he is being honest. What about you Gene. You claim to believe it and to even represent it, but you really do not do you?

    Like I said earlier, a wolf is better than a wolf in sheep’s clothing IMO. One is at least honest about attacking the sheep and the faith. And you call each other brother which is another clue of wolf status.

    #871615
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hello brother Gene, I appreciate your post to me on John 1:1 about the “Word”. In fact the poetical narration of this writer of Fourth Gospel wanted to place Jesus, the supposed Messiah along with God in the beginning by comparing him with the “Word” which was involved in God’s creation in the beginning. This imagination of this writer caused Christianity to interpret Jesus as God who was with God in the beginning.

    Let me correct you on this one. Making Jesus as God took about 3 or 4 centuries to evolve. The NT writers were not alive on earth in that period. Here is what was believed before the Nicene Creed by apostles and biblical scholars.

    Pre-Nicene Writings – The Trinity Doctrine

    #871617
    Berean
    Participant

    God bless

    #871618
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Come on another, another style, but I appreciate …. and you?

    https://youtu.be/WsFT32__EGk

    #871669
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Proclaimer: It was addressed perfectly and you know it. That is why you got a bit upset.

    Actually, you still haven’t addressed it.  Since the point I’m making is easy for anyone to understand, I can only imagine that you’re going out of your way to pretend like you can’t understand it.  Maybe this will help…

    Stairs Painting

    Are you able to grasp the concept that what would be considered “UP/OVER THE HEAD OF/ABOVE” person #1 would NOT be “UP/OVER THE HEAD OF/ABOVE” persons 2, 3 and 4?  All 4 persons in this painting have a different “UP”.

    It is the same on your imaginary ball earth.  If you are at the top, bottom, or one side of the ball, with your feet on the ball, then you will look UP to see the sky, and DOWN to see the ball you’re standing on.  If I am on the opposite side of the ball, then I will look UP to see the sky, and DOWN to see the ball I’m standing on.  But to see the sky that is above YOU, I wouldn’t look up.  I’d have to look DOWN and through the ball to see the sky that is above YOU.  It’s really not that hard, is it?

    YOUR up is the complete opposite of MY up.  YOUR up is actually MY down.

    So the question, once again, is:  How is God able to be ABOVE you when you look UP OVER YOUR HEAD TO THE SKY,  while God is also ABOVE me when I look UP OVER MY HEAD TO THE SKY?

    Proclaimer: If God is only above that which is on one referenced flat plain, then who is the God of all the things that inhabit the other side of things that are essentially below in the same reference frame?

    The “other side”?  There is no “other side”.  There is only ONE up, and ONE down…

    Look Up

    Here you’ll notice that God is ABOVE all 3 people.  They all look “UP/ABOVE THEIR HEADS” to where God dwells.  And God is ABOVE all three of them.

     

    #871671
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene: Berean …..I realize Jesus is your God, and you worship him as such,   but he is not my God, I have a God and it’s the same God , Jesus has.   Thank you for your concern though.

    peace and love to you and yours……..gene

    Brilliant!  No long explanations needed.  Just the plain, simple and SCRIPTURAL fact that our God is also Jesus’ God.  We know this because Jesus told us so.

    Btw, our Heavenly Father is also Jesus’ Heavenly Father.  And we strive to become spiritual children of God.  We don’t strive to become spiritual children of Jesus – but of God.  Reason #2493 that Jesus cannot be God.

    #871672
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    gadam: Your strange ideas of interpreting Hebrew scriptures…

    Like I told you in the other thread, “Lol, ha ha” is not a valid argument.  Neither is claiming the other guy’s ideas are “strange”, therefore you “win”.  🙄

    gadam:  Sorry I don’t want any further arguments on this Arian controversy here with me.

    Fantastic!  Take care.

    #871673
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Berean: Gene

    [15] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 
    [16] For by him were all things created

    Berean, who is our Creator?

    #871698
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @Mikeboll64

    Hi Mike,

    Yes, Pebbles, not Bambam. When I realized that I got the name wrong, the “edit” button was gone, haha.

    You said:

    The Bible ALWAYS identifies God with SINGULAR pronouns and verbs. But PLURAL families (the Flintstones) or entities (the YHVHs) would not be characterized with singular verbs and pronouns.

    We say the Flintstones got in THEIR car, not HIS car. Similarly, if there was such a thing as “the YHVHs”, we’d say that THEY sent THEIR angel, not HE sent HIS angel.

    The Bible DOES NOT ALWAYS identify God with singular pronouns and verbs. Also, a family can be characterized with singular verbs and pronouns.

    For example:

    Screen Shot 2021-06-27 at 6.43.11 PM

    Do you see that where it says “I am Yahweh, your God” the “your” is plural? Then it continues “who brought you,” the verb “brought you” is singular?

    This kind of thing is in multiple places. While you are thinking about it, the Hebrew wouldn’t put an ‘s after a family name. So Flintstone’s is the English way of including the whole family with the last name of Flintstone but not the Hebrew way. The Hebrew language most certainly uses the singular pronoun and verb for a group as you can see in the above example.

    #871699
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @Mikeboll64

    Prov 8

    22Jehovah possessed me — the beginning of His way, Before His works since then.

    23From the age I was anointed, from the first, From former states of the earth.

    24In there being no depths, I was brought forth, In there being no fountains heavy [with] waters,

    25Before mountains were sunk, Before heights, I was brought forth.

    26While He had not made the earth, and out-places, And the top of the dusts of the world.

    27In His preparing the heavens I [am] there, In His decreeing a circle on the face of the deep,

    28In His strengthening clouds above, In His making strong fountains of the deep,

    29In His setting for the sea its limit, And the waters transgress not His command, In His decreeing the foundations of earth,

    30Then I am near Him, a workman, And I am a delight — day by day. Rejoicing before Him at all times,

    #871700
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You asked:

    Kathi, do you really think Paul was saying that the Father isn’t also our Lord?

    Paul understands the Father is also our “kurios” Lord, and Paul understands that Jesus is also our theos. In the context of 1 Cor 8:6, Paul is identifying two persons who are our God and Lord. In the NT when the context is speaking about the Father and the Son, they are typically distinguished as God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. That doesn’t mean that the Father is never referred to as Lord or the Son is never referred to as God.

    But what is even more striking is how the Father, Himself, identifies the Son as the YHVH who laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the works of His hands. Wrestle with that.

    #871703
    gadam123
    Participant

    Paul understands the Father is also our “kurios” Lord, and Paul understands that Jesus is also our theos. In the context of 1 Cor 8:6, Paul is identifying two persons who are our God and Lord. In the NT when the context is speaking about the Father and the Son, they are typically distinguished as God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. That doesn’t mean that the Father is never referred to as Lord or the Son is never referred to as God.

    But what is even more striking is how the Father, Himself, identifies the Son as the YHVH who laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the works of His hands. Wrestle with that.

    I always wonder what did Paul wanted to prove by quoting Father as One God and Jesus as One Lord in 1Cor 8:6. Was he modifying the Shema of Israel Deut 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord (YHWH) is our God, the Lord (YHWH) alone” ?

     

    #871762
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    You are correct, Abraham is not talking to the Father. He is talking to YHVH however

    He is talking to God the Father, but through the Son or Angel of YHWH.

    Do you not understand. If you see the Son you see the Father.

    Not all instances say Angel of the LORD. But some say The Angel in the New Testament because they understand what is going on.

    Moses saw God face to face. But in the New Testament it says the Angel. Let’s imagine it didn’t say that in that instance. Then you would say it was the literally God himself with a body.

    Not so though.

    God made the universe through the Son and again you are confused and make Jesus the creator. If you don’t understand that the one true God is invisible and has a Son who is the express image of this God, and a personal form of Binity or Trinity is the only way your mind can understand, then only you can help yourself by letting God teach you via his Spirit.

    You then hinge your philosophy on one quote in scripture that says ‘o god’ and ignore all the clear scriptures and teaching that shows us clearly that there is one true God and that he has a Son whom he sent into the world.

    Clearly your bias is what draws your conclusions hence why no one takes you seriously. Remember that those who reject the Son reject God so be careful with your teaching and doctrine. Again, there is God and he has a Son. Antichrists deny the Son. Many doctrines there are that deny the Son.

    #871792
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:   …the Hebrew wouldn’t put an ‘s after a family name. So Flintstone’s is the English way of including the whole family with the last name of Flintstone but not the Hebrew way. 

    Really? So because we use an “s”, while the Hebrews used an “im” or “oth” suffix to denote plurality, the case is solved?  Come on now, Kathi.  Let’s try this again.  In English, when talking about the plural family of Flintstones, we would NEVER say…

    The Flintstones got in HIS car and HE drove to the drive-in where HE ordered dino ribs. 

    But if we were talking ONLY about the single person Fred Flintstone, we WOULD say…

    Flintstone got in HIS car and HE drove to the drive-in where HE ordered dino ribs.

    Are you with me so far?

    So what I’m expecting from you is a scripture that supports your doctrine by saying something like…

    WE are the Yahwehs (or “Yahwehim” if you insist) your GODS (or “Godim” if you insist) and CREATORSWE are jealous GODS, and WE require your worship to go only to US

    Is there anything like that in scripture to support your doctrine?  Because all I see is stuff like…

    I am Yahweh, your God and Creator. I am a jealous God and I require your worship to go only to ME.

    Do you see it now?  Your doctrine is that THEY are YahwehS our GODS, and THEY created us and we owe THEM our worship.  But scripture says that HE is Yahweh our GOD, and HE created us and we owe HIM our worship.

    Your doctrine is completely against the scriptures, and the only recourse you have is to find rare and ambiguous technicalities that are commonly associated with the translating of one language into another, and try to capitalize on them in the most nonsensical ways possible.

    Scripture:  We have ONE Creator.  HIS name is Yahweh.  HE is the ONE Most High God, and we worship HIM.

    LU’s Doctrine:  We have TWO CreatorS. THEIR names are both Yahweh. THEY are the TWO Most High GodS, and we worship THEM.

    Kathi, scripture reveals that we have a Creator.  Who is our Creator?

    #871793
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: Prov 8

    22Jehovah possessed me — the beginning of His way, Before His works since then.

    23From the age I was anointed, from the first, From former states of the earth.

    24In there being no depths, I was brought forth, In there being no fountains heavy [with] waters,

    25Before mountains were sunk, Before heights, I was brought forth.

    1.  You admit then that Jesus is a POSSESSION of Jehovah.  That is good.  Jesus is, has been, and always will be Jehovah’s holy servant who faithfully does the will of his and our God, Jehovah.  We strive to become spiritual children of Jehovah, and spiritual SIBLINGS of, and JOINT HEIRS with, Jehovah’s holy servant Jesus.
    2.   God never has been, nor will ever be ANOINTED by anyone else.  There is nobody higher than God that can anoint Him to any thing.  Therefore, this one who was anointed cannot possibly be God.
    3.   I notice that you didn’t bold the phrases “brought forth” in verses 24 and 25.  Why not? Is it because you know what it signifies?  Here are the 25 Trinitarian NET scholars to make it clear to everyone else what you already know…

    The third parallel verb is חוֹלָלְתִּי (kholalti), “I was given birth.” Some (e.g., KJV, NAB, NASB, NRSV) translate it “brought forth” – not in the sense of being presented, but in the sense of being “begotten, given birth to.” Here is the strongest support for the translation of קָנָה (qanah) as “created” in v. 22. 

    But you already knew that, didn’t you?  I can’t make you stop hiding from scriptural truth.  I can only keep reminding you of it in the hope that someday you’ll let it find you.

    #871795
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: Paul understands the Father is also our “kurios” Lord, and Paul understands that Jesus is also our theos. In the context of 1 Cor 8:6, Paul is identifying two persons who are our God and Lord. In the NT when the context is speaking about the Father and the Son, they are typically distinguished as God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. That doesn’t mean that the Father is never referred to as Lord or the Son is never referred to as God.

    Then we are in agreement that Jesus ISN’T “the Lord part of Yahweh” while the Father is “the God part of Yahweh”.  Good.  We agree that the Father is also our Lord.  Good.

    Now, is it possible that Paul was listing them in a hierarchical manner, such as:  “Our hierarchy consists of the head boss, the Father, then the second most high in command, Jesus…” ?

    Because if that’s even a remote possibility (which of course you can’t deny), then you’d have to agree that it would align PERFECTLY with this other teaching from Paul…

    1 Corinthians 11:3

    But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

    So could it be that the same author was conveying the same message in 1 Cor 8:6?

    LU:  But what is even more striking is how the Father, Himself, identifies the Son as the YHVH who laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the works of His hands. Wrestle with that.

    The only one wrestling here is you… against the scriptures.  You’re doing just what I said you always do 2 posts ago.  You cling to a few obscure and AMBIGUOUS words in the Bible, and try to force them into teaching your bizarre doctrine.

    In this case, you take ONE scripture that doesn’t even say “the Father said this thing about the Son”, and try to squeeze a doctrine from it.  But in doing so, you make this one scripture contradict a hundred other ones.  For example, the prayer by the Apostles in Acts 4 isn’t ambiguous.  There is no guesswork involved.  They clearly pray to the ONE who created the heaven, the earth, the sea, and everything in them, right?  And then they clearly identify Jesus – not as that ONE – but as the holy servant OF that ONE, right?

    So your new understanding of Heb 1:8 completely contradicts the prayer of the Apostles.  And it contradicts Jesus himself, who clearly said that God created the world, right?

    Mark 13:19-20

    …because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again. If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them

    So Jesus says God created the world.  You use an ambiguous verse to say Jesus created the world.  Should we believe you?  Or Jesus?  Also note that Jesus refers to his and our God as “Lord” – which lends further credence to the fact that Paul was simply listing the hierarchy for us in 1 Cor 8:6.  And finally, note that Jesus isn’t including himself in the “God” who created the world, because Jesus clearly refers to that God as “he”, ie: somebody other than himself.

    Of course I could keep going through dozens of other scriptures to prove my point, but instead I’ll ask you (and Berean) again…

    Who is our Creator?

    #871800
    Berean
    Participant

    Mike 

    John 1:3 give the answer

    All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 

    HIM = THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD

    #871805
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike……Right on brother.  Very good post to LU and Berean too.  That is the way I see it also,  one God who created everything “alone and by himself”. Isa 44:24,   God does nothing through his servants but speakers his words to them and sends them out to tell his words, to who he sends them to.  That is exactly what he did with the prophets, and Jesus also. Jesus did not preexist his birth on this earth , except in the plan and will of the Father, and gave his  prophets his words,  to tell us about him (Jesus) before he ever came into his only true and actual existence. Just as he sent his prophets to tell about his servant Cyrus 200 years before his birth also.  Jesus was part of God the Fathers plan before he was even born, and the Glory he was to receive was also given him before he ever came into existence too.  That is what Jesus meant when he said he “had” that glory with the father , it was a “prophesied”  glory he was going to receive,  not a glory he had already once  before, as false teachers think he meant.
    Good posts Mike.

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

     

     

Viewing 20 posts - 22,481 through 22,500 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account