John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 22,321 through 22,340 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #870870
    gadam123
    Participant

    Hi All, I am just quoting the old post from Thinker here to show that how the NT writers created mess for Christianity.

    “To All,
    Why is it that anti-trinitarians do not run to defend the purity of Christ’s person? Not one unitarian here cares that his Christology and his hamartiology compromises the simple truth that Christ was a lamb WITHOUT BLEMISH AND WITHOUT SPOT. I have pointed out several times that Christ is a lamb without blemish and without spot and I did not get so much as one post saying “Good point thinker”.

    I’ll tell you why. It is because unitarians want a savior that is in their own image. But God deemed it fitting that our high priest be without weakness,

     

    Quote
    For such a high priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners….For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever (Heb. 7:26, 28)
    God said that it was “fitting” that our high priest be holy, harmless, undefiled and separate from us. But the unitarian says “No” to this. He says that it was fitting that our high priest be like us in every way. He says, “Jesus had to have sinful desires like us or we do not want Him”.

    God also said that Christ was appointed high priest by oath. This means that Christ had no weakness. But the unitarian cries “foul” and says, “If Jesus didn’t have weakness then he had an advantage over us”.

    This kind of reasoning is so pathetic! Christ’s “advantage” was not over us but was for our benefit. It is a good thing for Kerwin, Nick, and Marty that ALL blasphemies against the Son are forgiveable (Matthew 12:32).

    thinker”

    I could not come across even one thread on this Heaven net that could end these arguments on Jesus. The reasons are well know to us that the Christology of NT writers is diversity and not unity on Jesus. The result is confusion.

    #870918
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: The Father through the Son, i.e. both.

    It took both to complete the creation therefore, one cannot be considered the creator and the other not the creator.

    Jesus says it was the Father.  Jesus’ apostles say it was the Father.  And while the KJV uses the word “creator” 5 times…

    Screenshot (127)

     

    … there is no instance of “creators”…

     

    Screenshot (125)

    You are free to believe that we have two different Gods who are our Creators.  As for me, I will stick to the scriptures.

     

     

    #870919
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel:  YOU:  No, we are not born as “spiritual sons of God”.

    John 1:12-13

    But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God— children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man,

    but born of God.
    ME: Mike God is a SPIRIT BEING!

    If we are born of A SPIRIT  BEING

    WE ARE BORN SPIRITUAL  BEINGS/SONS!

    Read it again.  John said Jesus gave us the right to BECOME spiritual children of God.  That will be after the resurrection… not now.  For that, we must be born again of water and spirit – not of flesh as we are now.  In the meantime, we are to live AS IF we are currently opposed to the flesh and are already spiritual sons of God, but actually BECOMING spiritual sons of God will be a later event for those deemed worthy.

    Carmel, is it said in scripture that anyone will become a BROTHER of God?

    #870920
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    gadam: “The point of the phrase is that this future ruler, who may indeed be the Messiah, will have come forth from Bethlehem because his royal origins are “of old, from days of yore,” i.e., from the old and venerable House of David, and David was born in Bethlehem.”

    Why would the people you quoted add the word “royal” to the scripture?  God spoke (through Micah) about one who would come in the future, but whose origins were from ancient times.  Not “royal origins”.  Plus, the House of David was still active when Micah prophesied… not something “of old, from days of yore”.

    I find your argument uncompelling and biased – as if written by someone who was purposely bending over backwards to try to explain away a scripture which, taken at face value, clearly speaks of a coming one who had already been in existence for a very long time.

    I find the arguments concerning Proverbs equally uncompelling. I don’t find it feasible that the “son” mentioned in 30:4 was “Israel”.  Why not “David”?  Why not “Solomon”?  Why not “JESUS”?  The person you quoted simply searched to find instances of someone being called God’s son in the OT, and said, “Well, my personal bias is that Jesus is nothing special, therefore the ‘son’ spoken of in 30:4 must be Israel – because I don’t want it to be Jesus”.

    And as for wisdom being God’s wife or literal wisdom… the former is unscriptural heresy, and the latter implies that God lacked wisdom in the beginning, and had to create it.  Knowing that Jesus is called “the wisdom of God”, and that God created all things through Jesus, His firstborn creation, Prov 8 makes perfect sense.

    But how does one argue these points to someone who rejects the NT – and bends over backwards to make sure none of the OT verses are taken at face value?

     

     

    #870921
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    Ecc 12:1 – Remember also thy Creators in days of thy youth, While that the evil days come not, Nor the years have arrived, that thou sayest, ‘I have no pleasure in them.’

    Father, Son and Spirit, one God in the fullest sense. More than one person, together as God created the universe.

    #870925
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike,  where do you see it written that Jesus is the wisdom of God at?  And where does any scripture say Jesus was alive,  before he was born on this earth either. There are certainly scriptures predicting his birth on this earth, in the Hebrew text, but none saying he was alive before his birth, nor any activity of him found, in any scripture before his birth on this earth either,  if you have found some please post them brother. I don’t mean scriptures where it can be “assumed” as such,  but scriptures that actually and specifically say that, especially in our original Hebrew Scriptural text,  which have been far less tampered with then the Greek Trinitarian, Catholic texts were.
    I believe like Paul said, basically if it is not backed up by the original Hebrew text, it is highly suspect. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours…………gene

     

    #870926
    gadam123
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    You: Why would the people you quoted add the word “royal” to the scripture?  God spoke (through Micah) about one who would come in the future, but whose origins were from ancient times.  Not “royal origins”.  Plus, the House of David was still active when Micah prophesied… not something “of old, from days of yore.

    Me: Because Micah was talking about a ruler not any godly being as the NT writers and Christianity imagined. There is no support for the so called Messiah whose origins you claim are from eternity and was first created by God. Hebrew Messiah will be a normal human being whose ancestry is tied to David not any god or spirit being.

    The Messiah has to be the seed of David but not any supernatural godly being as the NT writers and Christianity invented;

    1 Ch 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go [to be] with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom.

    1Ch 17:12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever.

    1Ch 17:13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took [it] from [him] that was before thee

    Psalm 132:11 The LORD has sworn in truth to David; he will not turn from it: “I will set upon your throne the fruit of your body.

    Jeremiah 23:5-6 “Behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD, “That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; a King shall reign and prosper, and execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. In His days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell safely; now this is His name by which He will be called: The Lord our Righteousness.

    2Sa 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
    2Sa 7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
    2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men
    2Sa 7:15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took [it] from Saul, whom I put away before thee.

    Hope this will resolve your problem.

    #870928
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene: Mike, where do you see it written that Jesus is the wisdom of God at?

    1 Corinthians 1:22-24

    Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

    Gene: And where does any scripture say Jesus was alive,  before he was born on this earth either.

    Didn’t we just go through this?  I showed you John 8:58, where Jesus said he existed before Abraham CAME INTO EXISTENCE, right?  You didn’t respond.  Why not?  Why would you ignore the answer to this very question – just to ask the same question 2 weeks later? 🤔

    #870929
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: Hi Mike,

    Ecc 12:1 – Remember also thy Creators in days of thy youth, While that the evil days come not, Nor the years have arrived, that thou sayest, ‘I have no pleasure in them.’

    Father, Son and Spirit, one God in the fullest sense. More than one person, together as God created the universe.

    I led you right to that, didn’t I? 😉  Why do you think the YLT translated it as plural?  Why do none of the other English translations render it that way? Now you have two choices:  You can claim one unique and abnormal translation of one Bible verse by one single translator as a victory of some sorts, or you can do a little digging.  Is the plural translation in the YLT legit?  A typo? A misunderstanding of the Hebrew language?  Does Ecclesiastes as a whole give hints that there are two Gods and two Creators?  Later in that same chapter we read…

    Ecclesiastes 12:13

    Having heard everything, I have reached this conclusion: Fear God and keep his commandments because this is the whole duty of man.

    Not “fear Gods” and keep “their” commandments?  Hmm…  Yeah, you might want to do a little more digging.  I’d seriously be interested in hearing your defense of the YLT’s plural versus the singular that every other Bible has.

    #870931
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    gadam: Micah was talking about a ruler not any godly being as the NT writers and Christianity imagined.

    God was indeed talking (through Micah) about a forthcoming ruler.  You offer no evidence that this ruler wasn’t a godly being – or that the NT writers imagined anything at all.  You offer only your own baseless claims of these things.  Nor have you addressed my earlier point that calling the House of David something “from days of old” WHILE the House of David was still ruling Judah would have been a nonsensical thing for God (or Micah) to do.

    gadam: There is no support for the so called Messiah whose origins you claim are from eternity and was first created by God.

    I don’t claim Jesus’ origins are from eternity, nor does any Bible scripture – OT or NT – claim such a thing.  But yes, as God’s firstborn Son, brought forth as the first of God’s works (Prov 22), the beginning of the creation by God (Rev 3:14), and the firstborn of every CREATURE (Col 1:15), the Bible indeed says Jesus was the first thing ever created by God.

    gadam:  Hebrew Messiah will be a normal human being whose ancestry is tied to David not any god or spirit being.

    Even IF the Messiah was still forthcoming, there is absolutely nothing in the OT that says what you claim.  God can make children of Abraham from stones, so your forthcoming Messiah could have pre-existed as a rock before God causes him to be born of a descendent of David… if that’s the way God chooses to do it. Or he could already exist as an eagle right now, that God will someday cause to be born of a human woman.  Or… he could already be existing in heaven at this very moment, at the very right hand of God right now, and in a 1000 years God will send him down from heaven to be born of a human woman to be your Messiah.

    Do you understand these things, gadam?  You boldly claiming that your coming Messiah MUST BE according to certain parameters that you’ve devised on your own are meaningless to God.

    gadam, do you deny the entire NT – including the direct quotes of Jesus?

    #870933
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    The plural is legit as per the Hebrew word, why most translators didn’t translate it as plural, I can’t say.

    Btw, the creators are together as the one God in the fullest sense, different persons not different gods.8D8CFB4B-C020-4A7B-AEFC-50624F634696

    That “p” in “mpc” stands for plural.

    Gill’s Exposition:

    Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth,…. Or “Creators” (b); as “Makers”, Job 35:10; for more than one were concerned, as in the creation of all things in general, so of man in particular, Genesis 1:26; and these are neither more nor fewer than three; and are Father, Son, Spirit; the one God that has created men,

     

     

    #870934
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    ”Makers” is plural here:

    E93E4254-0FA5-48C5-BD37-0B731DEE4156

    and here:C35ACAEE-F470-4EFA-99AB-8B11E2F6AC6D

     

    #870935
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    In Ecc:12:13, the Hebrew word translated as “God” is plural.

    47E88229-44D6-48A0-AF39-66EAF8B56E36

    #870936
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Mike,

    The plural is legit as per the Hebrew word, why most translators didn’t translate it as plural, I can’t say.

    Btw, the creators are together as the one God in the fullest sense, different persons not different gods.

    The Trinity Doctrine has well been put to bed in these forums.

    Your argument is the same except there is one less member of the God substance entity.

    Just look to the debunking of the Trinity Doctrine and try and come up with something new that hasn’t been debunked yet. Otherwise you are promoting debunked ideas which no one will take seriously.

    The Trinity Doctrine

    #870937
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU:Read it again.  John said Jesus gave us the right to BECOME spiritual children of God. 

    YES Mike, definitely

    John 1:12-13 But to all who did receive Him,

    to those who believed in His name,

    Me ATTENTION Mike please, I repeat:

    Immediately WHILE STILL ON EARTH,

    to all who did receive Him,

    to those who believe in His name,

    WHILE THEY ARE STILL ON EARTH LIVING SPIRITUALLY IN CHRIST:

    LIVING AS SPIRITUAL CHILDREN IN CHRIST, and DEAD AS CARNAL CHILDREN OF THE WORLD. NOT OF THE WORLD.

    He gave the right to become children of God—

    THERE AND THEN while on earth!!!

    Romans: THERE is now, therefore, no CONDEMNATION to them that are in Christ Jesus,

    who walk not according to the flesh.

    2For the law of the spirit of life, in Christ Jesus, hath delivered me from the

    law of sin and of death. 

    SIN and DEATH are NOT APPLICABLE FOR THOSE WHO LIVE  SPIRITUALLY IN CHRIST,

    DESPITE WE DIE ON EARTH!

    Now read hereunder:

    John 11:26 And every one that liveth, (WHILE ON EARTH)

    and believeth in me, ( TO THE EXTENT THAT HE LIVES SPIRITUALLY IN CHRIST)

    shall not die FOREVER……

    NOT EVEN WHEN HE DIES PHYSICALLY AS A HUMAN, LIKE JESUS DID,  for the simple reason that he would be already dead in his flesh through his spiritual life in Christ while on earth, as a spiritual person.

    Thus already spiritual in the truth, ALREADY SPIRITUAL CHILDREN OF GOD ON EARTH,  He only has one task to go through;

    DEATH! BUT THAT’S ONLY ACCORDING TO THE WORLD! 

     IN THE TRUTH  IT’S NOT DEATH AT ALL BUT LIFE AND CONTINUE

    LIVING THE SPIRITUAL LIFE AS CHILDREN OF GOD, IN HEAVEN, IN FACT 

    NOT EVEN JUDGED!!!

    OBVIOUS, SIMPLY AS WE ALREADY JUDGED OURSELVES  AS HUMANS IN FLESH, DESTROYED OUR FLESH BODY WHILE ON EARTH LIVING SPIRITUALLY IN CHRIST.

    Now read and perceive the truth;

    John5:24 Amen, amen I say unto you, that he who heareth my word,

    and believeth him that sent me,

    hath life everlasting;(WHILE ON EARTH)

    and cometh not into judgment,

    but is passed from death to life.

    Mike I am repeating what I said :

    I BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE IN THE POSITION TO PERCEIVE

    THE SPIRITUAL PROCESS ESTABLISHED BY JESUS ON EARTH!

    IT’S ALL HEREUNDER:

    Luke 13:32And he said to them: Go and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and do cures to day and to morrow,

    and the third day I am consummated. 

    In the above Jesus confirms that He is the only human being who became

    SPIRITUAL ONE SUBSTANCE IN THE HOLY GHOST,  WHILE HE IS ALSO IN

    HIS FLESH PERFECT BODY!

    READY TO BE SACRIFICED AS THE PERFECT RANSOM

    A LAMB WITHOUT BLEMISH AND WITHOUT SPOT!

    33Nevertheless I must walk today and tomorrow, and the day following,

    because it cannot be that a prophet perish, (NOTICE, NOT DIE, PERISHES)

    out of JERUSALEM.

    Notice OUT OF JERUSALEM! WHAT ACTUALLY JESUS REFERRED TO?

    Mike, where did Jesus die, inside or outside JERUSALEM???

    DEFINITELY OUTSIDE! NO?

    ANSWER: WHAT ACTUALLY JESUS MEANT IF HE, A PROPHET,

    “PERISHED” OUTSIDE JERUSALEM? 

    YOU:Carmel, is it said in scripture that anyone will become a BROTHER of God?

    John 20:17 Jesus saith to her: Do not touch me, for I am not yet ASCENDED TO my Father.

    But go to my brethren, and say to them:

    ME: Mike, In the above, JESUS, the second Adam, THE MAN BORN AGAIN FROM THE DEAD, SPIRITUALLY DEAD SOULS, asserted that the entire human race resurrected all embodied in Him,

    ALL AUTHENTIC  BROTHERS. as much as the entire human race were in Adam on his creation! 

    Thus we are all brothers of Jesus! NOT YET PERFECT AS ONLY GOD IS PERFECT.  Confirmed by Jesus:

    Do not touch me, for I am not yet ASCENDED TO my Father.

    NOT YET ASCENDED TO THE GLORY OF MY FATHER,

    Then He said:

    But go to my brethren, and say to them:

    I ascend to my Father and to your Father, to my God and your God. 

    OK? Mike, Jesus in the above also confirmed that 

    HE EVENTUALLY, THAT SAME EVENING, ASCENDS 

    BOTH TO THE GLORY OF HIS FATHER  OF  ALL SPIRITS, and

    OUR FATHER OF ALL FLESH, THE HUMAN RACE, AND ALSO

    TO THE GLORY OF HIS GOD  IN HEAVEN, and

    TO THE GLORY OF OUR GOD ON EARTH!

    Consequently, the human race as much as they are

    BROTHERS OF JESUS IN FLESH, they are also

    BROTHERS OF GOD IN CHRIST JESUS, 

    GODMAN!

    SIMPLY AS “THE WORD” JESUS’HUMAN NATURE, THE MAN BORN AGAIN FROM THE DEAD, and

    THE HOLY GHOST, JESUS’ DIVINE NATURE, GLORIFIED ON THE CROSS,

    GODMAN,  John13:31,32  ARE NOT TWO ANYMORE, BUT UNIFIED

    TWO IN ONE FLESH 

    GOD OF ALL FLESH IN

    JESUS CHRIST

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

    #870939
    gadam123
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    You: Even IF the Messiah was still forthcoming, there is absolutely nothing in the OT that says what you claim.  God can make children of Abraham from stones, so your forthcoming Messiah could have pre-existed as a rock before God causes him to be born of a descendent of David… if that’s the way God chooses to do it. Or he could already exist as an eagle right now, that God will someday cause to be born of a human woman.  Or… he could already be existing in heaven at this very moment, at the very right hand of God right now, and in a 1000 years God will send him down from heaven to be born of a human woman to be your Messiah.

    Me: Your post made me laugh. Yes Christianity can make any thing possible as it had already invented the same in its NT. I have quoted number of verses from Hebrew Bible for proving that Messiah has to be a normal human being and will be the seed of David. So that will end our arguments on the origins of Messiah. In fact NT writers searched the Hebrew Bible to find the bits and parts to suit their ideology on Jesus but the Jews of Jesus’ time rejected Christian Messiah. Nothing changed till date for God’s people. Virgin birth, preexistence, first creation, Binity, Trinity, Arianism, Unitarianism  etc are all the results of the seeds sown by these writers of NT. What else we can expect from such writings….. a complete havoc and confusion which is clearly visible on this Forum.

    Thanks for nice chat…..Adam

    #870941
    gadam123
    Participant

    For Mikeboll64….

    Invitation to participate in the debate on the following threads as we are deviating from the topic  John 1:1;

    1. Christian writers Misquoting Texts – What does Hebrew Bible really say?
    2. Was Jesus Jewish Messiah – What does the Hebrew Bible really say?
    3. Question of Parousia of Jesus – how Christianity manage the dilemma?
    #870954
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  That “p” in “mpc” stands for plural.

    And the “s” in the “ms” that follows stands for singular.  Same with Job.  As for “god” being in the plural form, YHVH Himself refers to Satan, Dagon, Asteroth, Baal, etc. with the plural “elohim”.  It’s called the “plural of majesty” or “plural of intensity” – and the Hebrew language uses it a lot.  For example, the word “Behemoth” is simply the plural form of “beast”.  We use the context and the pronouns/verbs to help determine if the plural is being used to intensify the noun, or as a real plural describing more than one thing.  For example, in Gen 1:26 that you mentioned, we know from the plural form of verbs used that it is God talking to those who are not God – because the plural of majesty doesn’t apply to verbs or pronouns.  So in your view of one God made of two people, Gen 1:26 is that one binity God talking to OTHER people who are not him/them.

    So no, we still have only one God and one Creator – unless you want to include ALL of those to whom God said, “Let us make man in our image” as co-creators with God.  Plus, your reasoning fails when you want to proclaim one God/two persons, but then ascribe to that ONE God the PLURAL term “creators”.  Understand?  If you want to refer to Father and Son as two “creators”, then you need also refer to them as two “Gods”.  If, on the other hand, you prefer the “one God/two persons” theory, then you’re also stuck with “one Creator/two persons”.  Unless you’re willing to state for the record that God is the Creators. 😉

    Anyway, if I get time I’ll do a little more digging on the plural “creators” in the YLT.  It’s interesting to me that the participle is masculine plural, but the suffix is masculine singular.  And I don’t know enough about the Hebrew language to say what any of that means, but even without the singular suffix, the plural part could just be another case of the plural of intensity, like the plural elohim and behemoth.

    #870956
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel: ATTENTION Mike please, I repeat:

    Immediately WHILE STILL ON EARTH,
    to all who did receive Him,

    to those who believe in His name,

    WHILE THEY ARE STILL ON EARTH LIVING SPIRITUALLY IN CHRIST:

    LIVING AS SPIRITUAL CHILDREN IN CHRIST, and DEAD AS CARNAL CHILDREN OF THE WORLD. NOT OF THE WORLD.

    I understood your point the first time, and tried to show you how it was wrong.  Here…

    John 3:5-7

    Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. Do not be amazed that I said, ‘You must be born again.’”

    See it now?  Jesus gave us the right to BECOME spiritual children of God… but not in our flesh bodies.  Flesh is born of flesh – not of spirit.  We must be born again of spirit to achieve “spiritual children of God”.  That will come after the resurrection – not while any of us are still flesh entities.  Flesh cannot see, inherit, or enter the kingdom of God.  And only those who enter God’s kingdom will be His spiritual children.

    There will still be flesh children of God after the resurrection, dwelling on the new earth.  Jesus gave all of us the RIGHT to be accepted into the kingdom of God as spiritual children – but only a few will achieve that goal.  Most of us who are resurrected to everlasting life (and not the second death) will live that life out as flesh children of God on the new earth. Very few will rule with God and Jesus as spiritual sons from the new heaven.

    Carmel, will anybody become a BROTHER to God?

    #870957
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    gadam: I have quoted number of verses from Hebrew Bible for proving that Messiah has to be a normal human being and will be the seed of David.

    And I have shown you that God can, right this very minute, cause Michael the archangel to be conceived on earth through a human woman who is of the lineage of King David.  And doing so would fit every single prophesy about the Messiah. So it’s okay to say that the Messiah will be flesh and of David’s lineage.  It’s not okay to impose other stipulations on God by saying this son of David couldn’t have already existed as Michael the archangel… or even as a stone or an eagle.

    I asked if you deny even the direct quotes from Jesus in the NT.  What is your answer?

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