John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 22,301 through 22,320 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #870550
    Berean
    Participant

    Amen LU

    May truth and love triumph on this forum

    #870557
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer……IF God “made” “ALL THINGS ” , what did Jesus Make?

    Please tell me what part did Jesus play? Seeing God made it all?

    Are you saying God Can do nothing without Jesus? I thought it was Jesus who said he could do ‘”NOTHING ” of himself.

    Tell me what does this scripture mean to you?

    Isa 42:5….this says God the LORD, That created the heavens and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which comes out of it, he that gives breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 

    Isa 44:24…..  This says the  LORD,  your redeemer, and he that formed you from the womb, I am LORD “THAT MAKES “ALL THINGS’’, that stretches forth the heavens “ALONE ” ; that spreads abroad the earth “BY MSELF” ; 

    Prclaimer …. where does he say he does everything  through or by Jesus at here. If God the Father says he does this “alone and by himself” , what gives you or anyone else the right to deny his own words .

    Read the rest of what God does by himself. He also said that “He gives his glory to “NO ONE ELSE ” . 

    Procalimer,  forcing the text to say what it is not actually saying which contradicts what the original Hebrew text say, is bad form .

    The Greek word “dia” is a big trip word for you all. IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours………gene

     

     

     

    #870561
    Berean
    Participant

    The Greek word “dia” is a big trip word for you all. IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours………gene

    Gene

    Read

    1:16 For by(en) him(Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by(dia) him, and for(eis) him:

     

     

    di autou = BY HIM

     eiV auton =FOR HIM 

    #870562
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU:

    Proclaimer……IF God “made” “ALL THINGS ” , what did Jesus Make?

    Please tell me what part did Jesus PLAY?

    Seeing God made it all?

    Proverbs 8:30 I was with him FORMING

    ALL THINGS:

    and was delighted every day,

    PLAYING before him at all times;

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #870563
    Berean
    Participant

    Amen Carmel !

    #870566
    gadam123
    Participant

    Please tell me what part did Jesus play? Seeing God made it all?

    Are you saying God Can do nothing without Jesus? I thought it was Jesus who said he could do ‘”NOTHING ” of himself.

    Tell me what does this scripture mean to you?

    Isa 42:5….this says God the LORD, That created the heavens and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which comes out of it, he that gives breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 

    Isa 44:24…..  This says the  LORD,  your redeemer, and he that formed you from the womb, I am LORD “THAT MAKES “ALL THINGS’’, that stretches forth the heavens “ALONE ” ; that spreads abroad the earth “BY MSELF” ; 

    Prclaimer …. where does he say he does everything  through or by Jesus at here. If God the Father says he does this “alone and by himself” , what gives you or anyone else the right to deny his own words .

    Read the rest of what God does by himself. He also said that “He gives his glory to “NO ONE ELSE ” .

    Hi brother Gene, the above post of yours is more than sufficient for negating mythological views of New Testament writers. Nothing changed here for the past 12 years on Heaven Net. Everyone is sticking to his or her own views.

    #870569
    Berean
    Participant

    Gadam
    If you don’t believe the NEW TESTAMENT, IT IS A DAMAGE TO YOU.
    DON’T TRY TO BORE THOSE WHO BELIEVE IT. IT DOESN’T HELP YOU.

    #870579
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  Mike….Even if you were to render it as present tense ,  it still could be understood as Jesus exists presently,  (in importance ), before Abraham did or does,  right?

    Gene, look at the actual Greek words again…

    said unto them Jesus truly truly say I to you before Abraham came into existence I exist

    The words “before Abraham CAME INTO EXISTENCE” make it very clear that Jesus wasn’t talking about being more “important” than Abraham.  He is clearly saying that he was existing before Abraham came into existence.

     

    #870580
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    gadam 123: The writer of Fourth Gospel had put words into Jesus mouth to fulfill his Christology stating that Jesus was preexisting before his birth as human being. He was the ‘word’ that was with God in the beginning and was somehow involved in God’s creation. Such concepts are not available in Hebrew scriptures unless we force them and take them out of their original context. 

    Micah 5:2

    “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

    Gadam, even from Micah’s point of view (having lived long before Jesus walked the earth as a man), Jesus’ origins were from ancient times.  So yes, the one who would come out of Bethlehem in the future had already been in existence from days of old.

    There’s also Proverbs 8:22-31, and Proverbs 30:4 – which speaks of God’s Son long before Jesus was made flesh…

    Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Whose hands have gathered up the wind? Who has wrapped up the waters in a cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is the name of his son? Surely you know!

    And of course there are Jesus’ own teachings (“I am the bread that came down from heaven”, “Father, glorify me now with the glory I had in your presence before the world began”, etc.)

     

    #870582
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: Here is your “peer-review:”

    According to the NET Bible notes:

    sn You founded the earth…your years will never run out. In its original setting Ps 102:25-27 refers to the work of God in creation, but here in Hebrews 1:10-12 the writer employs it in reference to Christ, the Lord, making a strong argument for the essential deity of the Son.

    You do know that the NET Bible was produced by 25 Trinitarian scholars, right? 😉  Their notes are a great wealth of fantastic information, and I thank God for them.  But in John 1:1, after pointing out that “and the Word was a god” is the most natural translation (by excluding the Colwell’s Rule excuse to which most Trinitarians appeal), they go on and translate as “and the Word was fully God” anyway.  So yeah, you have to use discernment to know when they are telling it like it is, and when they are letting their Trinitarian bias take over.  I mean, the word “fully” isn’t even in John 1:1, right? 😊

    That being said, it seems that both you and the NET scholars have a dilemma to solve:  Why would the writer of Hebrews clearly identify “God” as the creator – TO THE EXCLUSION OF THE SON who he names as someone other than “God”, and then turn around and identify the Son as the creator – TO THE EXCLUSION OF THE FATHER to whom he attributes the words in verse 10?

    Who actually did the creative work?  The Father (verse 2)?  Or the Son (verse 10)?

    Now there is a 3rd possibility…  Since the writer doesn’t explicitly say that the words in verse 10 are said by God about the Son (as he does in many other verses), it could be that verse 10 is just the writer talking ABOUT God creating – like he did in verse 2.  After all, God is the subject throughout (God spoke through prophets, God spoke through Son, God created, God said x about angels, God said x about Son, God created (second mention), God said x about Son).

    As a bonus, accepting that 3rd possibility not only aligns with the many other scriptures that say God created (while simultaneously identifying the Son as someone other than the God who created – including Jesus’ own words in Mark), it also relieves you from the headache of trying to imagine that the speaker in Psalm 102 was the Father, praying to the Son who created the heavens and the earth, for relief of his tortured soul.

    #870583
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike: First of all, our hope is to become spiritual children of God.

    Carmel: NOT QUITE RIGHT:
    WE ARE ALREADY SPIRITUAL CHILDREN OF GOD! IN FACT, THAT PASSAGE  CLEARLY SAYS

    Romans 8:17 And if sons, heirs also;
     HEIRS INDEED OF GOD!

    No, we are not born as “spiritual sons of God”.

    John 1:12-13

    But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God— children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God.

    These are the ones Paul is talking about in Romans.  Believing in Jesus doesn’t MAKE us spiritual sons of God, but is one step on the path to BECOMING that.  Paul is talking about the future things that believers who are judged and found worthy of everlasting life will inherit from God.

    1 Corinthians 2:9

    But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”—

    We have not seen, heard, or received these things yet… nor had the people to whom Paul was writing.

    But you’re hovering around a great point without tackling it.  Are we to become SONS of God?  Or BROTHERS of God?  Which does the Bible teach?

    #870584
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

     

    YOU: Are you saying God Can do nothing without Jesus? I thought it was Jesus who said he could do ‘”NOTHING ” of himself.

    ME: PRECISELY Gene! As Jesus as a SPIRIT/MEDIATOR, simply meant that He is between God and every creature! PRECISELY IN THEIR HEART!

    SIMPLY A SERVANT

    SERVING BOTH GOD AND  CREATURES AS

    “THE WORD” OF GOD, THE ONLY ABODE OF GOD, AND ETERNAL LIFE!

    WITHOUT JESUS’SPIRIT  IN EVERY CREATURES’ HEART GOD WOULD NEVER BE IN A POSITION TO ABIDE IN HIS CREATURES, WITHOUT ERADICATES THEM IMMEDIATELY ON THE LEAST SPECK OF EVIL INTENTION IN THEIR HEART.

    THAT ALSO MEANS THAT CREATURES ARE WITHOUT A FREE WILL!

    NEVER MIND, LUCIFER BECAME THE DIRECT ENEMY OF GOD.

    ASSERTED HEREUNDER:

    Jesus answered them: Amen, amen I say unto you: that whosoever committeth sin, is the servant of sin. (SATAN)

    35Now the servant (SATAN) abideth not in the house for ever; but the son (JESUS)abideth for ever. 36If therefore the son shall make you free,

    you shall be free indeed.

    JESUS AS A SPIRIT, “THE WORD” FROM HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS, OFFICIALLY BECAME JUSTIFIED IN ALL HEARTS AT ALL COSTS, NO MATTER WHOM AND WHAT. Luke 17:20-37

    SATAN, FROM JESUS’ DEATH ON THE CROSS, REALIZED AND  ACCEPTED THE TRUTH, THAT HE WAS NOT AUTONOMOUS AFTER ALL. AS GOD, THE SOURCE, THROUGH JESUS COULD LIVE IN ALL KINDS OE EVIL CREATURES, EVEN IN SATAN HIMSELF!

    Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.

    NO GOD NO JESUS

    NO JESUS NO GOD.

    HEBREWS 4:12For THE WORD of God is LIVING and EFFECTUAL,

     and more piercing than any TWO-EDGED sword;

    and reaching unto THE DIVISION OF THE SOUL AND THE SPIRIT,….

    The above is related to the spiritual process within humans. Where Jesus, as a spirit, is both between God and the SOUL, and between Satan and the SOUL. For the simple reason that Jesus as a spirit THE LIFE SOURCE,

    SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD, is

    BOTH IN SATAN’S HEART and IN THE HUMAN HEART.

    A PLACE WHERE GOD COULD NEVER ABIDE DIRECTLY!

    Now read hereunder:

    Proverbs 8:22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways,

    before he made anything from the beginning.

    23I was set up FROM ETERNITY, and of old before the earth was made.

    24The depths were not as yet, and I WAS ALREADY CONCEIVED. Neither had the fountains of waters as yet sprung out:

    25The mountains with their huge bulk had not as yet been established:

    before the hills I was brought forth:

    26He had not yet made the earth, nor the rivers, nor the poles of the world.

    27When he prepared the heavens,

    I WAS PRESENT:

    when with a certain law and compass he enclosed the depths:

    28When he established the sky above, and poised the fountains of waters:

    29When he compassed the sea with its bounds, and set a law to the waters that they should not pass their limits: when be balanced the foundations of the earth;

    30I was with him FORMING AL THINGS:

    and was delighted every day, playing before him AT ALL TIMES;

    31Playing in the world:

    and my delights were to be with the children of men.

    OBVIOUS WHERE ELSE IF NOT IN THEIR HEART!

    32Now therefore, ye children, hear me: Blessed are they that keep MY WAYS.

    Gene, JESUS IS THE WAY!

    33Hear instruction and be wise, and refuse it not.

    34Blessed is the man that heareth me,(WITHIN HIS HEART/SOUL) and that watcheth daily at MY GATES, and waiteth at the posts of MY DOORS.

    Gene read what Jesus said:

    John10:7…..“I tell you the truth, I AM THE GATE for the sheep.

    9 I AM THE DOOR. By me, if any man enter in, he shall BE SAVED: ….

    35He that shall find ME, shall find LIFE, and shall have SALVATION from the Lord:

    36But he that shall sin against ME, shall hurt his own SOUL. All that hate me love death.

     

    Isaiah 42:1BEHOLD my SERVANT, I will uphold him: my elect,

    Gene without that SERVANT GOD COULD NEVER CREATE!

    NO GOD NO JESUS
    NO JESUS NO GOD.

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #870605
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike…..Greek word (pro) 

    a primary preposition “fore”, that is, in front of, prior (figuratively) SUPERIOR  to. In compounds it retains the same significance:- “above” , ago, “before”, or ever.

    The overall meaning in the text is Jesus Christ is SUPERIOR, OR “MORE IMPORTANT” , to those people, then Abraham was or is. It was not in reference to his age at all,  to me.

    peace and love to you and yours…….gene

    #870607
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……You are without a doubt the most corrupter of scriptures then anyone here or for that matter was ever here.  The video, What Mike posted about you is something you should really consider. IMO

    Carmel I may hate what you preach, but remember I don’t hate you.

    peace and love to you and yours……..gene

    #870609
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    You

    The Greek word “dia” is a big trip word for you all. IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours………gene

    Gene

    Read

    1:16 For by(en) him(Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by(dia) him, and for(eis) him:
     

    di autou = BY HIM
    eiV auton =FOR HIM

    #870611
    carmel
    Participant

    HiGene,

    Carmel……You are without a doubt the most corrupter of scriptures then anyone here or for that matter was ever here. 

    THE ONLY THING YOU ARE GOOD FOR Gene, IS

    BLA, BLA, and BLA!!!

    PROVE IT!!!!

    TILL THEN

    MIND STANDS!

    Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy to dogs;

    neither cast ye your pearls before swine,

    lest perhaps they trample them under their feet, and turning upon you, they tear you.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #870612
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Gene:  Mike…..Greek word (pro) 

    a primary preposition “fore”, that is, in front of, prior (figuratively) SUPERIOR  to. In compounds it retains the same significance:- “above” , ago, “before”, or ever.

    The overall meaning in the text is Jesus Christ is SUPERIOR, OR “MORE IMPORTANT” , to those people, then Abraham was or is. It was not in reference to his age at all,  to me.

    Hi Gene, notice how one of the definitions you listed above is “prior to”.  I understand that you highlight the figurative use of someone being superior to another.  We can do that in English too.  I can say that Abraham Lincoln comes BEFORE George Washington if the context supports that I’m talking about U.S. Presidents in order of how much I like them.  But look at the context of the question Jesus was answering…

    John 8:57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and You have seen Abraham?”

    You can see right there that the context wasn’t about whether or not Jesus was superior to Abraham. The context was about Jesus not having even been alive long enough to have seen Abraham.  Do you understand that?  They are explicitly challenging the AGE of Jesus, claiming he is too young to have ever seen or talked to Abraham.

    The other thing you neglect is the Greek word “ginomai” in Jesus’ response – which specifically refers to someone coming into existence.

    ginomai

    1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being

    So not only is it clear from the Jews’ question that they were talking about how long Jesus had been in existence, it is also clear from Jesus’ answer to them…

    John 8:58  “Truly, truly, I tell you,” Jesus declared, “before Abraham came into existence, I exist!”

    Do you see the red words “came into existence”?  That is the Greek word “ginomai”, and it is right there in the Greek text.  So Jesus also made it clear that HE was talking about how long he had been in existence.

    You want to read it as, “Before Abraham, I am”… as in, “I am superior to Abraham”.  But if you include the word “ginomai”,  you get, “I am superior to Abraham came into being.”

    You see it now?  You’ve got to deal with that word “ginomai” somehow.  It’s there in the text, and you can’t ignore it.  You can’t logically claim that Jesus was saying he was superior to Abraham’s birth, right?  Yet Abraham’s birth is very much a part of Jesus’ answer.

    It’s not, “Before Abraham, I am”, like you imagine it… it’s , “Before Abraham CAME INTO EXISTENCE I am/exist/have existed”.

    Back to the U.S. Presidents…   If I said, “Before Washington, Lincoln is”, then I could be talking about Lincoln being superior to Washington.  BUT… if I say, “Before Washington CAME INTO EXISTENCE, Lincoln is”, then I’m talking gibberish – because it’s clear from the context that I’m talking about when each of them EXISTED.

    So first you have the Jews clearly claiming that Jesus couldn’t have seen Abraham because he hasn’t been IN EXISTENCE long enough.  And then you have Jesus directly addressing their claim by saying that before Abraham even came into existence, he had already been in existence.

    Cheers

    #870633
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @mikeboll64

    You asked:

    Who actually did the creative work?

    The Father through the Son, i.e. both.

    It took both to complete the creation therefore, one cannot be considered the creator and the other not the creator.

    #870776
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU:No, we are not born as “spiritual sons of God”.

    John 1:12-13

    But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God— children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man,

    but born of God.

    ME: Mike God is a SPIRIT BEING!

    If we are born of A SPIRIT  BEING

    WE ARE BORN SPIRITUAL  BEINGS/SONS!

    Romans: THERE is now therefore no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus,

    who walk not according to the flesh.

    2For the law of the spirit of life, in Christ Jesus, hath delivered me from the law of sin and of death. 3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh;

    God sending his own Son, in the likeness of sinful flesh and of sin, hath condemned sin in the flesh;

    4That the justification of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit. 5For they that are according to the flesh, mind the things that are of the flesh; but they that are according to the spirit, mind the things that are of the spirit. 6For the wisdom of the flesh is death; but the wisdom of the spirit is life and peace. 7Because the wisdom of the flesh is an enemy to God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither can it be

    . 8And they who are in the flesh, cannot please God.

    9But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit,

    if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.

    Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ,

    he is none of his. 

    10And if Christ be in you,

    the body indeed is dead,

    because of sin;

    but the spirit liveth, because of justification.

    I BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE IN THE POSITION TO PERCEIVE

    THE SPIRITUAL PROCESS ESTABLISHED BY JESUS ON EARTH!

    IT’S ALL HEREUNDER:

    Luke 13:32And he said to them: Go and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I am consummated. 33Nevertheless I must walk to day and to morrow, and the day following, because it cannot be that a prophet perish,

    out of Jerusalem.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #870779
    gadam123
    Participant

    Hi Mike thanks for commenting on my post.

    You: Gadam, even from Micah’s point of view (having lived long before Jesus walked the earth as a man), Jesus’ origins were from ancient times.  So yes, the one who would come out of Bethlehem in the future had already been in existence from days of old.

    There’s also Proverbs 8:22-31, and Proverbs 30:4 – which speaks of God’s Son long before Jesus was made flesh…

    Me: What is the Jewish understanding of Micah 5:2

    א וְאַתָּה בֵּית-לֶחֶם אֶפְרָתָה, צָעִיר לִהְיוֹת בְּאַלְפֵי יְהוּדָה–מִמְּךָ לִי יֵצֵא, לִהְיוֹת מוֹשֵׁל בְּיִשְׂרָאֵל; וּמוֹצָאֹתָיו מִקֶּדֶם, מִימֵי עוֹלָם.

    ” But thou, Beth-lehem Ephrathah, which art little to be among the thousands of Judah, out of thee shall one come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth are from of old, from ancient days”

    Answer: The expression in the end of the verse “Yemei olam” is INCORRECTLY translated in most non-Jewish versions as “days of eternity” in order to prove that Micah speaks about the divinity of the Messiah. That’s not the case.

    See for example the same use of the expression “Yemei olam” (in Malachi 3:4):

    ד וְעָרְבָה, לַיהוָה, מִנְחַת יְהוּדָה, וִירוּשָׁלִָם–כִּימֵי עוֹלָם, וּכְשָׁנִים קַדְמֹנִיֹּת.

    Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in ancient years.
    Of course Jerusalem and Judah have not existed since the “days of eternity”!! Thus the translation must follow the logic.

    David Berger in “Jews and Jewish Christianity” (Ktav, 1978) p. 22 says:

    “The point of the phrase is that this future ruler, who may indeed be the Messiah, will have come forth from Bethlehem because his royal origins are “of old, from days of yore,” i.e., from the old and venerable House of David, and David was born in Bethlehem. In other words, according to the most probable reading of this verse, it not only fails to say that the Messiah is everlasting, it doesn’t even say that he will be born in Bethlehem. The point is that Bethlehem will be his indirect point of origin because it was the birthplace of the father of his dynasty. Jews don’t have to insist on this last point; the Messiah may very well be born in Bethlehem. It’s just that the verse probably doesn’t say this”

    Proverbs 8:22-31. Woman Wisdom personified or actual being?

    22 The LORD created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of long ago. 23 Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. 24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth— 26 when he had not yet made earth and fields, or the world’s first bits of soil. 27 When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep, 28 when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep, 29 when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command, when he marked out the foundations of the earth, 30 then I was beside him, like a master worker; and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always, 31 rejoicing in his inhabited world and delighting in the human race.

    In Proverbs 8:22-31, a figure known as “Woman Wisdom” is described as being present when God was creating the world. Obviously, “Woman Wisdom” serves as a great personification to teach about the importance of learning Wisdom for the purpose of fearing God, but did some early Jewish sects believe in an actual divine being known as “Woman Wisdom” — possibly God’s wife? What piques my curiosity is the reference to “I was beside him, like a master worker.” Much later during Hellenistic times, there was a Jewish-Christian concept of “Sophia” (Greek for Wisdom) being God’s wife. Is this concept traced back to Proverbs 8:22-31?

    Answer: The biblical commentator Rashi begins Proverbs 8 by explaining that the word “chochma”/”wisdom” in verse 1, “Will not wisdom call out, and understanding give forth its voice?” is referring to the Torah:

    Will not wisdom call out: Does not the Torah announce for you the things mentioned  in this section?
    All the statements are made by the personified Torah, and in fact, the Torah makes a statement in verse 31 which Rashi explains as

    “[having] my delights: I waited until the generation of the desert came and accepted me”.

    So no Jesus as God’s son here as you are forcing the texts…

    Is Jesus the son that is referred to in Proverbs 30:4?

    Answer: In an attempt to prove the divine origin of Jesus, Christian theologians have pointed to this proverb as a prooftext for their claim. However, an examination of what the text actually says will dispel any attempt at such a forced interpretation.

    After informing us that he does not have all the wisdom and understanding that he should possess, Agur, the son of Jakeh, poses a series of rhetorical Questions, the Answers to which he realizes all men who seek knowledge should possess:

    Who has ascended up into heaven, and descended? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has bound the waters in his garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son’s name, if you know? (Proverbs 30:4)

    Knowing the Answers to these Questions is to know the fundamentals of all knowledge.

    The Answer to the Question “What is his name?” is given in the Scriptures, where we are informed that only God, the creator of heaven and earth, is in complete control of the forces of nature. Following this Question a second Question is asked: “What is his son’s name?” As the first Question is readily Answered through a reading of the Scriptures, the source of all true knowledge, so, too, the second Question is to be Answered by studying the same source. We thus obtain the Answer by studying such verses as Exodus 4:22: “Israel is My son, my firstborn”; Deuteronomy 14:1: “You are the children of the Lord your God”; and Hosea 2:1: “It will be said to them: ‘You are the children of the living God.'” Consequently, it is Israel that is the name of His son, His firstborn. True, we find elsewhere in the Bible that David and Solomon stand in a filial relationship with God (Psalms 89:27-28, 1 Chronicles 22:10, 28:6). Indeed, this will also be true of the future Messiah. But the right to this title is due, in the final analysis, to the fact that they are the representatives or personifications of Israel as a whole. Hence, it is Israel that is the sole bearer of the august title of the “son” or “firstborn” of God.

    Christian theology may argue that any reference to Israel’s relationship with God only points to an allegedly greater relationship between God and Jesus, but this argument remains unproved, having no bases in the Jewish Scriptures. It is an argument based on misguided motives, trying to prove the preconceived by forced interpretation. Only in a figurative sense will the future Messiah, when the calms, enter into the “sonship” of God, a position he will share with all of God’s chosen servants.

    Hope this will answer your queries….

     

     

     

     

     

Viewing 20 posts - 22,301 through 22,320 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account