John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 22,341 through 22,360 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #870961
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

     

    Regarding the “s” for singular here:

    A5BDD030-DF35-4B9B-9E27-97F0C8CC32EC
    The “2ms” mean second person, male, singular.” That is applying to the word “your”, not to the word “creators.”

    I believe that is correct from my very limited understanding of the Hebrew.

    I don’t have the time to deal with the rest of your post since I am far from home and busy with extended family near Chicago.

    Take care,

    LU

     

    #870963
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Either way, knowing what we know about the Hebrew use of the plural of intensity, a plural “creators” doesn’t have mean more than one creator any more than a plural “elohim” has to mean more than one god.

    Just took a peek and found these easily…

    Screenshot (138)

     

    Screenshot (139)

     

    Screenshot (140)

     

    Screenshot (141)

     

    Most commentators render it as a singular “Creator”, noting that the plural form is a plural of majesty (as I suspected).  Some of them make the same mistake Trinitarians make with the plural “elohim” – thinking a plural of intensity can indicate a plural entity.  It doesn’t.  Just like with “behemoth”, it can either mean one intense beast, or more than one beast.  It will never mean a single beast comprised of multiple persons.  Likewise, “elohim” can only mean an intense god (YHVH, Dagon, Satan, Baal, etc) or it can mean more than one god.  It can never mean one god made up of more than one person.  Even if there existed such an entity, the plural of majesty would not and could not describe it.

     

    #870980
    carmel
    Participant

    YOU:Carmel, is it said in scripture that anyone will become a BROTHER of God?

    John 20:17 Jesus saith to her: Do not touch me, for I am not yet ASCENDED TO my Father.

    But go to my brethren, and say to them:

    ME: Mike, In the above, JESUS, the second Adam, THE MAN BORN AGAIN FROM THE DEAD, SPIRITUALLY DEAD SOULS, asserted that the entire human race

    resurrected all embodied in Him,

    ALL AUTHENTIC  BROTHERS. as much as the entire human race was in Adam on his creation!

    Thus we are all brothers of Jesus! NOT YET PERFECT AS ONLY GOD IS PERFECT.  Confirmed by Jesus:

    Do not touch me, for I am not yet ASCENDED TO my Father.

    NOT YET ASCENDED TO THE GLORY OF MY FATHER,

    Then He said:

    But go to my brethren, and say to them:

    I ascend to my Father and to your Father, to my God and your God. 

    OK? Mike, Jesus in the above also confirmed that

    HE EVENTUALLY, THAT SAME EVENING, ASCENDS

    BOTH TO THE GLORY OF HIS FATHER  OF  ALL SPIRITS, and

    OUR FATHER OF ALL FLESH, THE HUMAN RACE, AND ALSO

    TO THE GLORY OF HIS GOD  IN HEAVEN, and

    TO THE GLORY OF OUR GOD ON EARTH!

    Now read John17:10 And all my things are thine, and thine are mine; and

    I am glorified in them.

    What does the scripture above say?

    ALL GOD’S THINGS, WHICH INCLUDES ALSO THE TITLE OF GOD ARE JESUS’

    Consequently, the human race as much as they are

    AUTHENTIC BROTHERS OF JESUS IN FLESH ON HIS RESURRECTION  they are also

    BROTHERS OF GOD IN CHRIST JESUS,

    GODMAN!

    1John 3:1Behold what manner of charity the Father hath bestowed upon us,

    that we should be called, and should be the sons of God. Therefore the world knoweth not us, because it knew not him. 2Dearly beloved, we are now

    the sons of God; (SPIRITUAL WHILE IN FLESH ON EARTH)

    and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know, that,

    when he shall appear,

    we shall be like to him:

    because we shall see him as he is. 

    Answer WHO IS “HIM”and “HE” in the above?

     

    SIMPLY AS “THE WORD” JESUS’ HUMAN NATURE, THE MAN BORN AGAIN FROM THE DEAD, and

    THE HOLY GHOST, JESUS’ DIVINE NATURE, GLORIFIED ON THE CROSS,

    GODMAN,  John13:31,32  ARE NOT TWO ANYMORE, BUT UNIFIED

    TWO IN ONE FLESH 

    GOD OF ALL FLESH IN

    JESUS CHRIST

    Acts 2o:28 Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock,

    wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops,

    to rule the church of God,

    which he (THE HOLY GHOST) hath purchased with his own

    blood. 

    YES MIKE WE ARE BROTHERS TO GOD IN

    JESUS CHRIST

    John7:3Now this is eternal life: That they may know thee,

    the only true God, and Jesus Christ,

    whom thou hast sent.

    1John5:19 We know that WE ARE OF GOD, and the whole world is seated in wickedness. 20And we know that the Son of God is come: and he hath given us understanding that we

    may know the true God,

    and may be in his true Son.

    This is the true God and life eternal.

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #871000
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel:  John 20:17 Jesus saith to her: Do not touch me, for I am not yet ASCENDED TO my Father.  But go to my brethren, and say to them…

    ME: Mike, In the above, JESUS, the second Adam, THE MAN BORN AGAIN FROM THE DEAD, SPIRITUALLY DEAD SOULS, asserted that the entire human race resurrected all embodied in Him,  ALL AUTHENTIC  BROTHERS. 

    It is scriptural that Jesus is our brother.  It is scriptural that God is our Father.  It is NOT scriptural that God is our brother.  Nor is it scriptural that God is BOTH our Father AND our brother.

    We are told our relationship to both God and to Jesus in the scriptures.  We are brothers and joint heirs along with our brother Jesus of the good things he and we receive from his and our God and Father.  And we are children of God.

    Get it?  Siblings of and joint heirs with Jesus… children of God.  Not children AND siblings of God.

    Therefore, Jesus is not God.  End of story… unless you can produce scripture that says anyone is or will be God’s brother/sister.

    #871001
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    So Kathi, knowing that “creators” is just the plural of majesty like many mentions of the plural elohim, we are back to having no scriptures in the Bible that truly even mention “creators”.  We have many that mention our ONE Creator though.  Who is that One?

    #871012
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    Plural majesty is a possibility which could mean the singular word in a fuller sense. The fullness of God is Father, Son and Spirit.

    YHWH created the world. YHWH is God of gods and Lord of lords.
    Jesus is the Lord of lords. All things were made through Him.

    #871027
    gadam123
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    Your post:

    And I have shown you that God can, right this very minute, cause Michael the archangel to be conceived on earth through a human woman who is of the lineage of King David.  And doing so would fit every single prophesy about the Messiah. So it’s okay to say that the Messiah will be flesh and of David’s lineage.  It’s not okay to impose other stipulations on God by saying this son of David couldn’t have already existed as Michael the archangel… or even as a stone or an eagle.

    I asked if you deny even the direct quotes from Jesus in the NT.  What is your answer?

    I have shifted this to “Was Jesus Jewish Messiah..” thread and please check my reply to this post there.

    #871045
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: It is scriptural that Jesus is our brother. 

    It is scriptural that God is our Father. 

    It is NOT scriptural that God is our brother. 

    Nor is it scriptural that God is BOTH our Father AND our brother.

    ME: Mike PHYSICALLY SPEAKING God is not our father!

    THE PURE FACT THAT WE DIE.

    HE IS OUR FATHER IN RELATION TO OUR SOUL/SPIRIT. THE PURE FACT THAT THE SOUL NEVER DIES, EXCEPT SPIRITUALLY WHEN OCCUPIED BY SATAN. 

    SCRIPTURALLY, GOD GLORIFIED AS MAN IN JESUS CHRIST, WHETHER YOU ACCEPT IT OR NOT, WELL CLEAR IN

    John13:3 Knowing that the Father had given him

    ALL THINGS INTO HIS HANDS,

    and that he came from God, and goeth to God; 

    John 13;31When he therefore was gone out, Jesus said:

    Now is THE SON OF MAN GLORIFIED, and

    GOD IS GLORIFIED IN HIM. (GODMAN)

    32If God be glorified in him,

    GOD ALSO WILL GLORIFY HIM IN HIMSELF; (MANGOD)

    and immediately will he glorify him.(ON HIS DEATH)

    Now read John17:10 And all my things are thine, and thine are mine; and

    I am glorified in them.

    What does the scripture above say?

    ALL GOD’S THINGS, WHICH INCLUDES ALSO THE TITLE OF GOD ARE JESUS’

    MIKE, ONLY IN JESUS CHRIST A HUMAN BEING,

    ALL GOD’S SPIRITUAL THINGS ARE GLORIFIED.

    Consequently, the human race as much as they are

    AUTHENTIC BROTHERS OF JESUS IN FLESH ON HIS RESURRECTION  they are also

    BROTHERS OF GOD IN CHRIST JESUS,

    GODMAN!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #871046
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Carmel:  What does the scripture above say?

    ALL GOD’S THINGS, WHICH INCLUDES ALSO THE TITLE OF GOD ARE JESUS’

    Now read your passage again with the discernment Paul showed here…

    1 Corinthians 15:27

    For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

    When Jesus says all of God’s things are also his, he is talking about the many things that his and our God, YHVH, has given to and shared with His first-created Son, Jesus.  So no, this does not include the title of Most High God (although Jesus is indeed a god in his own right).  When you read that passage in the future, just remember the disclaimer Paul wrote in 15:27 – to make sure that, while Jesus is indeed very high up the ladder, he is still a servant of his and our own God, YHVH.

    Okay, so you can’t point to a scripture saying anyone will become a brother of God.  How about a scripture that says the Most High God will rule from the throne of one of His own servants? (Because there are scriptures where God Himself says that Jesus will rule from the throne of God’s servant David.)

     

    #871047
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: Mike,

    Plural majesty is a possibility which could mean the singular word in a fuller sense. The fullness of God is Father, Son and Spirit.

    Like I pointed out in my previous post, the plural of majesty doesn’t work that way. “Behemoth” can mean a particular, very majestic/intense/grandiose beast, or more than one beast.  It can NEVER mean more than one entity in a beasthead.  “Elohim” can mean a particular, very majestic/intense/grandiose god, or more than one god.  It can NEVER mean more than one entity in a godhead.

    So you are still free to believe that God consists of more than one person… but a pluralized “god” or “creator” won’t ever support your belief.  You’ll have to support it another way.

    LU: YHWH created the world. YHWH is God of gods and Lord of lords.
    Jesus is the Lord of lords. All things were made through Him.

    YHVH is the God of gods and Lord of lords.  Jesus is the Lord of lords and King of kings.  Nebuchadnezzar is the King of kings.  But Neb and Jesus both being a King of kings doesn’t equate them or link them in any way.  Likewise, Jesus and God both being a Lord of other lords doesn’t equate or link them in any way.

    I do agree that God made all things through His first-created Son, Jesus.  We’re not told what “through” means in this case, so I don’t know if Jesus’ participation was “hands on” or not.  Most English translations have Proverbs 8:30 saying that Wisdom/Jesus was a “master craftsman” at God’s side. (Others translate that Hebrew word as “nursing child” – which plays better with all the previous mentions of him having been born or given birth.)  But master craftsman or not, “hands on” or not, the Bible clearly teaches that we have ONE Creator – not a couple or a few creators.  And that one Creator is the one who, according to the Apostles’ prayer in Acts (and many other scriptures), created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them… both for and through HIS (singular) holy servant Jesus.

    One Creator.  One holy servant Jesus.

     

    #871048
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    Do you think that God, the Father can bring forth a Son from His own eternal uncreated essence?

    or

    Do you believe that the Son can only come forth from essence that did not exist at one point and thus created essence?

    #871049
    gadam123
    Participant

    Do you think that God, the Father can bring forth a Son from His own eternal uncreated essence?

    or

    Do you believe that the Son can only come forth from essence that did not exist at one point and thus created essence?

    These are the two questions floating from the very beginnings of Christianity and caused great controversy at the time of Council of Nicaea (325 CE).  I can clearly see these two questions are floating every where on this Heaven Net.

    The reason for this dilemma is due to the NT scriptures supporting both these groups. There is third group (Unitarians) who close their eyes and negate these two questions(views).

    Now I am standing on the neutral ground and can clearly see the problem here.

     

    #871064
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    gadam: Now I am standing on the neutral ground and can clearly see the problem here.

    Rejecting the NT is not a “neutral” position.  It is a hard and very biased stance.

    Me:  I believe the sky is green.

    You: Mike, here’s a bunch of evidence that the sky is blue.

    Me:  I reject your evidence out of hand, therefore the sky remains green no matter what you say.

    😉

     

    #871065
    gadam123
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    gadam: Now I am standing on the neutral ground and can clearly see the problem here.

    Rejecting the NT is not a “neutral” position.  It is a hard and very biased stance.

    Me:  I believe the sky is green.

    You: Mike, here’s a bunch of evidence that the sky is blue.

    Me:  I reject your evidence out of hand, therefore the sky remains green no matter what you say.

    Please don’t misunderstand me. I have already gone through all these unending debates on various Forums especially on this Heaven Net for the past 12 years. I had struggled with sleepless nights on understanding these confusing doctrines on Jesus. I even suffered hypertension because of these unending debates on Jesus. I am now free from such confusing world of Christianity. You can call me anything I don’t take it wrong.

    But please see the dilemma raised by sister Kathi here. I have gone through her continous struggle to reply all of your arguments but the debate never ends on any topic on Jesus. The reason behind this is the diverse Christological concepts available in our NT writings. One can argue in his own way on Jesus but none can convince others on his views because others base their views on the same NT writings.

    This is the fate of our NT and Christianity.

    #871066
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU: Mike,

    Do you think that God, the Father can bring forth a Son from His own eternal uncreated essence?

    or

    Do you believe that the Son can only come forth from essence that did not exist at one point and thus created essence?

    When God said, “Let there be light”, was that light already a part of God’s eternal uncreated essence?  Or is the light we see comprised of essence that did not exist before God uttered those words?

    Who among us could know the answer? But even if it is the former, it doesn’t mean the light we see is also from eternity and has always somehow existed within the God who brought it into existence.  Same with the heavens and the earth.  Were they made from God’s eternal essence… or a created essence totally foreign to God?  If the former, it doesn’t mean the heaven and earth are from eternity.  And it is the same with Jesus, and all the other sons God created after him.

    The words are all right there in scripture.  You need only believe them. “The beginning of the creation by God”, “brought me forth as the first of His works”, “the firstborn of every creature”, etc.

    Jesus is the first thing God ever created.  He is not God, but God’s first creation.

    #871067
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    gadam: …the debate never ends on any topic on Jesus. The reason behind this is the diverse Christological concepts available in our NT writings.

    You mean as opposed to the OT – where there is no debate because every scholar in history accepts the same interpretation of every scripture? 😉  List for me one of the these “diverse Christological concepts” of which you speak.  Because I’ve also been here for 12 or more years, but instead of losing sleep, I’ve gained knowledge.  I know for a fact that the NT teaches Jesus as the son, servant, messiah, lamb, holy one, prophet and priest OF God – who existed alongside his God before the world began, and was subsequently sent by his God to earth to dwell as a human and preach God’s words to us and die as atonement for our sins.  It never teaches anything to contradict those things. But if you think it does, give me one example.

    gadam: One can argue in his own way on Jesus but none can convince others on his views because others base their views on the same NT writings. This is the fate of our NT and Christianity.

    Most people are headstrong.  Gene has been arguing against preexistence for the same 12 years here – despite the many clear scriptures that teach that Jesus existed in heaven before being sent to earth.  Kathi has been arguing that Jesus is somehow the same God he is the son, servant, lamb and prophet of for the same 12 years – despite having no scripture that actually supports her belief.

    For Kathi and Carmel:  The son and servant OF God can’t possibly BE the very God he is the son and servant OF.  End of story.

    And for you, Gene, and Jodi: The fact that the Messiah was said to come from the line of David doesn’t exclude him from having already existed in heaven BEFORE he came from the line of David as a human being.  End of story.

    So the argument from both sides (“Jesus is God” and “Jesus only ever existed as a man”) are very easily refuted by scripture and logic.  And yes, that includes OT scripture – like Micah 5:2.  It clearly says that the one who will come in the future has already existed from way in the past.  The minute you posted your quote of somebody saying, “Well, that’s just speaking about his Davidic Kingdom origins”, I knew you had nothing to actually refute Micah 5.  Why?  Because your answer is clearly a twisting of scripture in an effort to NOT understand it in the most natural, straightforward way it could be understood.  How can the Davidic Kingdom be “from days of old, ancient times” from the point of view of someone who lived IN the Davidic Kingdom? 🤔  Same with Wisdom in Proverbs 8.  This is obviously a sentient person speaking – not the abstract notion of wisdom itself.  And if it’s not Jesus  (who is called the wisdom of God) speaking, then who?  After all, somebody has to be, “You are my Son.  Today I have begotten you”, right?

    gadam, who is God’s first creation – if not Jesus?  If it’s not Jesus, why do we know absolutely nothing about “the firstborn of EVERY creature”?  Did you ever think about that?

    #871069
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You asked: When God said, “Let there be light”, was that light already a part of God’s eternal uncreated essence?

    Yes, but it wasn’t light that was physical, it was the spiritual Light that will light up eternity for those who believe.

    Furthermore, you claimed this: You need only believe them. “The beginning of the creation by God”, “brought me forth as the first of His works”, “the firstborn of every creature”, etc.

    For the believers in the Messiah as YHVH our Righteousness, we believe:

    Jesus is:

    Rev 3:14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write the following: “This is the solemn pronouncement of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the originator of God’s creation:

    Prov 8:22 “The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.

    Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation…

    Heb 1:8But about the Son He says:

    “Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever,

    and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom.

    9You have loved righteousness

    and hated wickedness;

    therefore God, Your God, has anointed You

    above Your companions with the oil of joy.”g

    10And:

    “In the beginning, O Lord, You laid the foundations of the earth,

    and the heavens are the work of Your hands. (That is said of the Son, btw.)

    11They will perish, but You remain;

    they will all wear out like a garment.

    12You will roll them up like a robe;

    like a garment they will be changed;

    but You remain the same,

    and Your years will never end.”

    For me, I have one God, the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ. My one Lord is someone other than the Father, btw.

    I hope that helps, LU

     

    #871072
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hello gadam123,

    You said: But please see the dilemma raised by sister Kathi here. I have gone through her continous struggle to reply all of your arguments but the debate never ends on any topic on Jesus. The reason behind this is the diverse Christological concepts available in our NT writings. One can argue in his own way on Jesus but none can convince others on his views because others base their views on the same NT writings.

    I’m sorry to hear of your struggle in making sense of Jesus Christ. My constant debate with Mike has been very helpful to bring me deeper into my relationship with the Lord Jesus and to really know Him as the only begotten God and YHVH my righteousness in-spite of Mike’s lack to receive that truth. Don’t give up seeking Jesus. He is the way, the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father apart from Him. The search has eternal consequences and eternal rewards. If you deny Jesus, poor health will be the least of your concerns. If you believe in Jesus as the Lord of your life, you will learn to find peace that lasts for an eternity as you trust Him and His Father and are filled with their Spirit.

    My friend, our discomfort on this earth is so small compared to the eternal joy that awaits those who believe in Jesus as their Savior.

    Matt 6:25“Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink, or about your body, what you will wear. Isn’t there more to life than food and more to the body than clothing? 26Look at the birds in the sky: They do not sow, or reap, or gather into barns, yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Aren’t you more valuable than they are? 27And which of you by worrying can add even one hour to his life? 28Why do you worry about clothing? Think about how the flowers of the field grow; they do not work or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his glory was clothed like one of these! 30And if this is how God clothes the wild grass, which is here today and tomorrow is tossed into the fire to heat the oven, won’t he clothe you even more, you people of little faith? 31So then, don’t worry saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear?’ 32For the unconverted pursue these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But above all pursue his kingdom and righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34So then, do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Today has enough trouble of its own.

    I hope that helps, LU

     

     

     

    #871073
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike says: Kathi has been arguing that Jesus is somehow the same God he is the son, servant, lamb and prophet of for the same 12 years

    Once again Mike represents my views as one without understanding of them. I have spoken of two persons who make  up the fullness of YHVH. One person is God the Father, another person is the one Lord, Jesus the Christ, the only begotten God. YHVH is both God and Lord. Mike thinks that the Father is both our one God and our one Lord. Scripture says otherwise. Mike also thinks the earth is flat…enough said.

    #871074
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kathi, how do you know the light God spoke into existence was of His essence?

    LU: Rev 3:14 …the originator of God’s creation…

    You often end your posts with the condescending “I hope that helps”.  Fortunately for me, I don’t have to “hope”, because for years I’ve watched you tweak your doctrine around the scriptural information I’ve shared with you.  The latest incarnation of that is you switching from “origin” to “originator” in Rev 3:14.  😎  But what if we just translated it as “beginning” – the default #1 definition of the Greek word – and the meaning of the same word by the same author in John 1:1?  What if you had no “wiggle room”, and it was somehow clarified beyond a shadow of a doubt that the word was “beginning” in Rev 3:14?  How would it change your doctrine to know for a fact that Jesus was the BEGINNING of the creation by God?

    LU: Prov 8:22 “The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old.

    Again, even though the most natural meaning of the word in this context is “created”, you choose the “wiggle room” route of using the unnatural and illogical “possessed”.  Why?  What does it even mean that God “possessed” Jesus “AS THE FIRST OF HIS WORKS”?  Like: “The first thing God ever did in his eternal life was to possess Jesus!”  What does that even mean? Is God a demon who possessed Jesus?

    But don’t worry, you can keep your twisted “possessed” and still come to a correct understanding of the passage with the help of the following verses…

    24:  When there were no oceans, I was given birth

    25:  before the mountains were set in place – before the hills – I was born

    So “possessed” or not, you can’t hide from “given birth” and “born”.  And since that’s the case, it’s really of no benefit to fight for the much less likely and less sensible “possessed” in vs 22.  You might as well just accept “created” and be done with it.  (Wow, what if “beginning” in Rev 3:14 and “created” in Prov 8:22 were somehow forced on you, and you had no wiggle room to escape them? 😳😳😳  What then?)

    Of course, while we’re still on Proverbs 8, let’s not forget all of these…

    26: before he made the earth…

    27:  When he established the heavens… when he drew a circle on the face of the deep…

    28:  when he established the clouds above…

    29: when he gave the sea his decree… when he marked out the foundations of the earth…

    What do we do with those words from Jesus himself?  Do we accept them as proof that someone other than himself did all of these things?  Or do we blow them off as the insane utterings of a madman?  After all, he was “possessed” at the time, right? 😉

    LU: Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation…

    Oh my… what would you ever do without all that wiggle room?  Genitive “every”, next word “creature” = “firstborn OF every creature”.  Question:  Was Jesus God’s literal firstborn or not?  Yes – even according to you.  Is there any context in that verse that would lead anyone to something other than the literal default meaning of “the one who was brought forth into existence first”?  No.   Kathi, you work so hard on wiggling out of the most natural and straightforward meaning of certain scriptures that you no longer see the forest for the trees.  Look at the beginning of that verse for crying out loud.  It clearly distinguishes Jesus as someone OTHER THAN God.  And what does “firstborn OVER all creation” even mean?

    LU: Heb 1:8 …therefore God, Your God, has anointed You above Your companions…

    Um… God doesn’t have a God of His own.  Therefore, anyone who has a God of his own can’t possibly be God.  Nor does God have any need of somebody else appointing Him over and above anyone else.  On the other hand, someone who isn’t God would definitely benefit from his own God appointing him to a position of great power and glory.  I mean, if Jesus was God, what need would he have for someone else to set him above anyone else?  As God, he’d already have always BEEN above everyone else, right?

    You are so blinded by what you WANT to be the truth that you can’t even see that the very scriptures you present to bolster you case actually work against you.  But as long as I’m able, I’ll be here showing you these things, watching as you keep refining your doctrine… and maybe some day it’ll all just click for you.

    You see that, gadam?  This is why I’m here.  This is how it is done.  I can’t force the horses to drink, but it is a very light yoke for me to keep leading them to the water.  Eventually, they might just accept the scriptures for what they clearly say, and stop twisting them.  I mean, what if Kathi finally decides to accept that Jesus is the BEGINNING of the creation by God, was CREATED as the first of God’s works, and is the firstborn of every CREATURE God created?  What if she some day comes to accept that Jesus is the son, servant, messiah, holy one, lamb, prophet, and priest OF God – and as such can’t possibly BE the very God he is all those things OF?  When that happens, my efforts will not have been in vain.

    Btw gadam, since you and I are debating about Micah 5:2 (an OT scripture), will you now reject the OT along with the NT?  That was your argument, right?  Since the NT causes debate, we should just pretend like it doesn’t exist, right?  So will you now dump the OT as well?  Just curious.

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