John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • #870477
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: End of story.

    ME: IT SEEMS TO ME THAT YOU ARE SOMEHOW, A BIT PREOCCUPIED, ARE YOU?

    IF NOT, HERE IS ANOTHER HEADACHE I’M AFRAID!

    YOU: That’s why Jesus is a joint heir along with us of God’s graces.

    ME: I’M AFRAID YOU ARE EITHER CONFUSED OR SIMPLY IGNORANT OF THE TRUTH! IMO.

    Let’s start with the last word:

    GRACES!

    Mike, WE AS CHRISTIANS EX SATANIC, NOT EVEN A PEOPLE, 1Peter2:10

    RECEIVE GOD’S GRACES BY

    JESUS!

    WHICH IS A HELL OF A DIFFERENCE  FROM WHAT YOU ARE PREACHING, THAT

    JESUS IS A JOINT HEIR ALONG WITH US OF GOD’S GRACES!

    SCRIPTURE IS EMPHATICALLY CLEAR, in

    John1:15 John beareth witness of him, and crieth out, saying:

    This was he of whom I spoke: He that shall come after me, is preferred before me: because he was before me.
    16 And of his fulness we all have received,

    AND GRACE FOR GRACE.

    17For the law was given by Moses;

    GRACE AND TRUTH CAME

    BY CHRIST.

    Now read Mike, hereunder to have some knowledge regarding graces, of which I believe, with every respect, YOU NOT ONLY DON’T KNOW HOW WE RECEIVE THEM, BUT ALSO  THEIR ORIGIN,

    THE FACT THAT YOU PREACHED AS SUCH!

    Luke 1:28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail,

    full of grace,…..

    Mike, JESUS’ MOTHER in the above is FULL OF GRACE, 

    NOW TELL ME WHAT WAS JESUS REGARDING GRACES, IF HIS MOTHER WAS

    FULL OF GRACE?

    CONSIDERING THAT “THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, AS A SPIRIT,

    TO MAINTAIN HIS PRIMACY, IN HIS OWN MOTHER, CONCEIVED AND CREATED MARY, IN HER HEART, AS THE NEW FEMALE LIVING SOUL, and THE BEGINNING OF THE NEW CREATION. 

    BY WHOSE PRESENCE  ON HER CONCEPTION, SHE BECAME

    FULL OF GRACE.

    AS MUCH AS HE CREATED DAVID HIS FATHER, ALSO TO MAINTAIN HIS PRIMACY IN DAVID, AS THE FIRST KING OVER THE WHOLE OF ISRAEL, AND  BY WHOM DAVID BECAME ALSO

    THE MAN AFTER GOD’S OWN HEART!!!
    THAT REGARDING GRACES,

    Now to your error regarding the ” joint-heir” term.

    That in the next post!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #870478
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: That’s why Jesus is a joint heir along with us of God’s graces.

    Romans 8: 17And if sons,

    heirs also;

    heirs indeed of God, and

    joint-heirs WITH CHRIST

    yet so, if we suffer WITH HIM,

    that we may be also glorified WITH HIM.

    OK Mike,  PROPERLY PREACHED:  WE AS CHRISTIANS,

    SPIRITUALLY AS SOULS,  ARE

    HEIRS INDEED OF GOD, BY THE HOLY GHOST, THE SON OF GOD, and 

    CARNALLY AS HUMANS, JOINT-HEIRS

    WITH CHRIST,

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, THE SON OF MAN. ON HIS RESURRECTION, NOT AS YOU PREACHED

    Jesus is a joint heir along with us

    Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come,

    God sent his Son,

    made of a woman, made under the law: 5That he might redeem them who were under the law:

    that we might receive (BY JESUS) the adoption of sons.

     7Therefore now HE IS NOT A SERVANT,

    but a son.

    And if a son, an heir also through God.

    Mike, GOT IT??? JESUS RIGHT NOW, IS NEITHER JOINT-HEIR NOR A SERVANT!!!

    Hebrews:1:2In these days hath spoken to us by his Son,

    whom he hath appointed heir of ALL THINGS, 

    Mike, for God’s sake, respect scriptures, please!

    JESUS IS THE HEIR OF ALL THINGS and

    JOINT-HEIR OF NOTHING!!! 

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #870479
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: That’s why Jesus is a joint heir along with us of God’s graces.

    John15:I AM the true vine, and
    my Father is the husbandman.

    Mike is the Father serving Jesus in the above?

     2Every branch in me, that beareth not fruit,

    he will take away:

    Is the Father serving Jesus in the above?

    and every one that beareth fruit, he will purge it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

    Is the Father serving Jesus in the above?

     3Now you are clean by reason of the word, (HIS SPIRIT IN THEIR HEART) which I have spoken to you.

    4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in me.

    5I am the vine; you the branches:

    OK, Mike? WE AS CHRISTIANS ARE MERE BRANCHES,

    JESUS IS THE VINE!

    he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit:

    for without me you can do nothing. 

    NEVER MIND Mike:

    JESUS IS JOINT-HEIR ALONG WITH US OF GOD’S GRACES!!!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #870480
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    Scripture says that nothing was made apart from Him, obviously He was not “made.”

    John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.

     

    #870481
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: Carmel:  I am serving my son right at this MOMENT IN TIME DOING THE ENTIRE FURNITURE OF HIS HOUSE FOR HIM

    You are graciously giving of yourself to help your son. 

    You are your son’s BENEFACTOR, not his SERVANT.

    ME, YES without a doubt!

    BUT GOD GAVE US TWO EYES NOT JUST ONE AND!

    AND FROM YOUR SIDE, THAT ‘S ONLY FROM ONE PERSPECTIVE OF THE TASK I’M AFRAID!

    you: Carmel, God is not the servant of His own servant Jesus.  End of story

    ME: Mike, according to you:

    THE FATHER IS NOT THE SERVANT OF HIS OWN SON JESUS! END OF STORY!

    Read:

    2 Corinthians 5:19 For God indeed was in Christ,

    reconciling the world to himself, …..

     

    John5:17 But Jesus answered them:

    My Father worketh until now; and I work.

     

    John14:Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me? Philip,

    he that seeth me seeth the Father also.

    How sayest thou, Shew us the Father?

    10 Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?

    The words (THE GOSPEL) that I speak to you, I speak not of myself.

    But the Father who abideth in me,

    he doth the works. 

    11Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? 

    12Otherwise believe for the very works’ sake. 

     

    Mike, IS THE FATHER IN THE ABOVE SCRIPTURES SERVING, OR BEING SERVED? OR

    BOTH BEING SERVED AND SERVED IN ONE INSTANT?

    THE OTHER PERSPECTIVE Mike, IS THAT

    BOTH THE FATHER AND THE SON ACHIEVED ALL IN GOD!

     

    SINCE GOD IS MYSTERIOUS AND UNKNOWN and KNOWN ONLY IN

    JESUS CHRIST THE TRUTH! OR MORE PRECISE:

    THE TRUE GOD!

    1John5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come:

    and he hath given us understanding that we may know the true God,

    and may be in his true Son.

    This is the true God and life eternal.

     

    peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

    #870482
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You said:

    Technically, Heb 1:1-2 says that, through his Son, God created the world. We know it is referring to the Father, but the writer explicitly identifies the Son as someone other than the one he identifies as “God” – whom he also identifies as the ONE who created the world.

    Technically, it is the one the writer of Hebrews calls “God” who identifies the Son as the YHVH who laid the foundation of the world, etc.

    #870483
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike: Let’s lay this out clearly…

    1. The author of Ps 102 prayed specifically, knowingly, and solely to YHVH the Son (the one who actually did create the heavens and the earth).

    2. The author of Heb 1 somehow knew that this particular prayer to YHVH in Ps 102 was not to YHVH the Father, nor to YHVH the Binity (Father and Son together) – but to YHVH the Son alone (the one who actually laid the foundations of the earth and stretched out the heavens).

    3.  The author of Heb 1, by attributing the words in Ps 102 to God, is therefore saying that the prayer of the afflicted soul in Ps 102 was actually a prayer made by God (whom he previously credited with creating the world in verse 2) to YHVH the Son (who he is now crediting with creating the world).

    Does that sum it up?  God was an afflicted soul who prayed to his Son for deliverance in Ps 102, and credited his Son with the creation of the heavens and the earth?   Hmm…  I’m not sure about that one.

    LU: Of course, the Father wasn’t the psalmist. In Hebrews 1,the Father was making the connection of what was said in the Psalm to who  actually carried out those acts during creation, it was the Son, whom the psalmist calls YHVH and God.

    I’m sorry, but we’re going to have to take it a little more slowly for me to understand.  As I understand your last post, you ARE saying that the psalmist knew he was praying exclusively to “YHVH the Son” – the one whose hands stretched out the heavens and laid the foundations of the earth.  And the psalmist knowingly and intentionally called the Son both “YHVH” and “God”, and credited him with the creation of the heavens and the earth.  Is that correct?

    #870484
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike: That’s why Jesus is a joint heir along with us of God’s graces.

    Carmel:  I’M AFRAID YOU ARE EITHER CONFUSED OR SIMPLY IGNORANT OF THE TRUTH! IMO…
    Mike, WE AS CHRISTIANS… RECEIVE GOD’S GRACES BY JESUS!
    WHICH IS A HELL OF A DIFFERENCE  FROM WHAT YOU ARE PREACHING, THAT JESUS IS A JOINT HEIR ALONG WITH US OF GOD’S GRACES!

    Romans 8:14-17

    For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

    So many points in one little passage.  First of all, our hope is to become spiritual children of God – not siblings of God. And as children of God, we will be brothers and sisters of God’s firstborn Son, Jesus. Since many will become brothers of Jesus – but nobody will become a brother of God – Jesus is not God.

    Secondly, you can read right there that as children of God, we will also be heirs of God… right along with our brother Jesus, who is also a son and heir of his and our God.

    Thirdly, we will also share in Jesus’ glory (and some will even rule with him from his throne for a while).  On the other hand, God gives his glory to no one else, and none of us will ever rule alongside God from his throne.

    #870485
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    LU:  Mike,

    Scripture says that nothing was made apart from Him, obviously He was not “made.”

    John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.

    Scripture also says that God created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them.  Well, God is one of the things in heaven, so therefore God created himself, right?

    Common sense will tell you that “everything in the heavens” obviously excludes the God who created those things. (It doesn’t exclude Jesus though.)  Likewise, all things being made through Jesus obviously excludes Jesus himself, who clearly couldn’t have been made through Jesus before Jesus was made.

    Imagine the things Trinitarians could claim if Paul didn’t iinclude this common sense disclaimer that everybody should have already known…

    1 Corinthians 15:27

    For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

    People with common sense don’t even need that disclaimer.  I think Paul included it for people like Carmel, who without it would be using that verse to support his claim that God is Jesus’ servant because Paul said God is under Jesus.  (Or maybe for people like you who don’t seem to know that God didn’t create himself, and that Jesus – the beginning of God’s creation, the firstborn of every creature, created as the first of God’s works, and having his origin in the distant past – wasn’t created by God through himself.)

    I’m happy to see you went there though.  I consider it a sign that my solid rebuttals to your previous claims are finally getting through to you.

    #870486
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Mike: Technically, Heb 1:1-2 says that, through his Son, God created the world. We know it is referring to the Father, but the writer explicitly identifies the Son as someone other than the one he identifies as “God” – whom he also identifies as the ONE who created the world.

    LU:  Technically, it is the one the writer of Hebrews calls “God” who identifies the Son as the YHVH who laid the foundation of the world, etc.

    My statement is unequivocally true and scriptural.  The validity of yours is still undergoing peer-review.  I’ll await your response to my latest post on the psalmist.  In the meantime, I’ll ponder the possibility that the same person would write that “God” created the world, while identifying God’s Son as someone other than the God who created the world, but then turn around and claim that it was this very Son – and not God as previously stated – who actually created the world.

    #870488
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You said:

    Scripture also says that God created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them.  Well, God is one of the things in heaven, so therefore God created himself, right?

    Actually God wouldn’t ever be said to have “come into being” now would he.

    Neither the Father, Son or their Spirit “came into being.” They always were, in essence.

    Your point has no merit.

    #870489
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Mike….Even if you were to render it as present tense ,  it still could be understood as Jesus exists presently,  (in importance ), before Abraham did or does,  right? But no texts that i have ever seen  says Jesus was  “alive”,  before Abraham was.

    Many try to  force the text to say that, but it not written  that way any where, and remember the living bible is completely full of errors as any true scholar will most likely tell you. Kings James is who i was told is considered the most accurate brother, and even it has errors in it too. According to critical Scholar, Bart Ehrman.

    I believe  Jesus had to be “exactly”, like us in every way and detail, without exception, or it would  simply have corrupted God the Fathers work of perfection in all humanity. He is the finished prototype of what God had in mind at the very beginning of his creation of mankind. IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours……….gene

     

     

     

     

    #870491
    gadam123
    Participant

    Hello brother Gene, this is the problem with the NT writers they forced the Jewish scriptures to suit their purpose. The writer of Fourth Gospel had put words into Jesus mouth to fulfill his Christology stating that Jesus was preexisting before his birth as human being. He was the ‘word’ that was with God in the beginning and was somehow involved in God’s creation. Such concepts are not available in Hebrew scriptures unless we force them and take them out of their original context. The NT writers had done lot of research on Hebrew scriptures and framed their Christology based on their beliefs and to suit their community.

    This is the reason why we have lot of doctrines in Christianity based on the texts of NT whether it is Trinity or Binity or Preexistence or Angiology. We can’t blame our brothers and sisters  who are debating here on various topics. Everyone is basing their argument on some concept or the other that is found in the NT texts. This is the pity. You can not come to conclusion on any topic here unless you close your eyes and  compromise on certain concepts.

    #870492
    Berean
    Participant

    No Gadam,, You are not in The way saying That.

    Jésus is realy THE DIVINE/HUMAN SON OF GOD

    GOD BLESS

     

    #870493
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Adam…..Correct brother, the NT, has over time been corrupted,  even the early speakers were corrupting them.  Like the Gnostic’s for instance. That is exactly why the apostle Paul said,  the Bereans, were more  noble then those in Tessalonica , because they searched the scriptures daily to see if what they were hearing was true or not, and remember the “only scriptures” they had was the Old Testament Hebrew Scriptures. .
    That has helped me over the years to sift  through many false teachings .  If what is being said does not match  up exactly with the Old Testament, it should be held as highly questionable. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours Adam………gene

    #870494
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Mike,

    You said:

    My statement is unequivocally true and scriptural. The validity of yours is still undergoing peer-review.

    Here is your “peer-review:”

    According to the NET Bible notes:

    sn You founded the earth…your years will never run out. In its original setting Ps 102:25-27 refers to the work of God in creation, but here in Hebrews 1:10-12 the writer employs it in reference to Christ, the Lord, making a strong argument for the essential deity of the Son.

    Enjoy, LU

     

    #870495
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    YOU: That’s why Jesus is a joint heir along with us of God’s graces.

    YOU: So many points in one little passage. 

    SO MANY POINTS  WHICH YOU DIDN’T UNDERSTAND WITH EVERY RESPECT! IMO.

    YOU: First of all, our hope is to become spiritual children of God.

    NOT QUITE RIGHT:

    WE ARE ALREADY SPIRITUAL CHILDREN OF GOD! IN FACT, THAT PASSAGE  CLEARLY SAYS

    Romans 8:17 And if sons, heirs also;

     HEIRS INDEED OF GOD!

    Mike, I posted FOUR POSTS AS AN ANSWER TO YOUR POST WITH THE HOPE THAT

    YOU DISCERN THE TRUTH! 

    I also said ;

    I’M AFRAID YOU ARE EITHER CONFUSED OR SIMPLY IGNORANT OF THE TRUTH! IMO.

    NOW IT IS OBVIOUS AS I SUSPECTED AND 

    YOU ARE INDED PREOCCUPIED!

    Mike, God is a spirit, and that scripture said 

    WE ARE INDEED HEIRS OF GOD! 

    WE ARE HEIRS OF GOD’S SPIRIT! 

    Can’t you see this Mike?

    Read again what I POSTED:  IF YOU DID READ MY POSTS, OF WHICH I DOUBT!

    Mike,  PROPERLY PREACHED:  WE AS CHRISTIANS,

    SPIRITUALLY AS SOULS,  ARE

    HEIRS INDEED OF GOD, BY THE HOLY GHOST, THE SON OF GOD.

    JESUS CHRIST

    JESUS, THE FATHER’S SUBSTANCE Hebrews 1:3,  was in ONE GLORY WITH THE FATHER IN THE FORM OF GOD,

    THE EMBODIMENT OF GOD, 

    THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD, BEFORE THE WORLD WAS!

    HE EMPTIED HIMSELF OF HIS DIVINITY, HE POURED HIS SPIRIT, ETERNAL LIFE, ENGRAFTED IN ALL CREATURES’ HEART, BY WHICH TASK HE BECAME WEAK AS HUMANS ARE, AND IN THE SAME TIME

    MOST POWERFUL, SINCE HIS SPIRIT WAS POURED AND SEALED ALL OVER CREATION! John6:27

    THEN HE CAME ON EARTH AND AS A HUMAN IN ALL THINGS LIKE HIS BRETHREN, 

    BUT NOT AUTHENTIC, ESTABLISHED

    HIS FATHER!

    NO FATHER NO JESUS

    NO JESUS NO FATHER!

    John 17:1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3And this is ETERNAL LIFE,

    THAT THEY MIGHT KNOW THEE THE ONLY TRUE GOD, 

     AND JESUS CHRIST,

    WHOM YOU HAST SENT.

    OR ELSE THE FATHER WOULD HAVE REMAINED MYSTERIOUS, UNKNOWN, AND NOT ACCEPTED ON THIS PLANET! 

    4I have glorified thee on the earth:

    I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5And now, O Father,

    glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory

    which I had with thee before the world was.

    The embodiment of God

    Now, do you know WHY AND HOW  WE ARE ALREADY SPIRITUAL CHILDREN OF GOD! Mike?

    NO YOU DON’T I’M AFRAID: READ:

    1 Peter 1:3Blessed be THE  God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath BEGOTTEN US again unto a lively hope by

    THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST from the dead,

    4To an INHERITANCE incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away,

    RESERVED in heaven for you,

    5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation

    ready to be revealed in the last time.

    YOU: – not siblings of God.

    ME: WHAT DO YOU MEAN “NOT SIBLINGS”

    EXPLAIN PLEASE Mike, I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHAT YOUR CARNAL MIND CONTAINS, REGARDING THE INHERITANCE THAT WE

    INHERITED AND IT IS RESERVED IN HEAVEN  TO BE REVEALED ON THE LAST DAY.

    YOU: And as children of God, we will be brothers and sisters of God’s firstborn Son, Jesus. Since many will become brothers of Jesus – but nobody will become a brother of God –

    Jesus is not God.

    ME: Mike,  READ AGAIN THAT SCRIPTURE PLEASE!

    Romans 8:17 And if sons, heirs also;

    HEIRS INDEED OF GOD!

    Mike, for God’s sake

    JESUS ESTABLISHED GOD THE FATHER ON EARTH

    IN HIMSELF!

    1 John5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come: and he hath given us understanding

    that we may know the true God,

    and may be in his true Son.

    This is the true God and life eternal.

    JESUS CHRIST GODMAN!

    GOD THE FATHER WAS NEVER THE ONLY TRUE GOD BY HIMSELF ON THIS PLANET!

    JESUS PROCLAIMED HIM SO!

    ON THIS PLANET THE ONLY WAY THAT THINGS ARE ACCEPTED AS TRUE, ARE THOSE THINGS 

    WHICH ARE TANGIBLE!

    ONLY JESUS WAS AND STILL IS 

    TANGIBLE!

    FOR THE PLEASURE AND GLORY OF THE FATHER!

    JESUS IS THE TRUTH ON THIS PLANET! SATAN’S.

    NOT THE FATHER! 

    JESUS IS THE MOST POWERFUL! For the pleasure of the Father

    John17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine;

    and I am glorified in them. 

    Secondly, you can read right there that as children of God, we will also be heirs of God… right along with our brother Jesus, who is also a son and heir of his and our God.Thirdly, we will also share in Jesus’ glory (and some will even rule with him from his throne for a while).  On the other hand, God gives his glory to no one else, and none of us will ever rule alongside God from his throne.

    ME: ALL THE ABOVE  WOULD BE CLARIFIED IN THE NEXT POST!

    IN THE MEANTIME, READ:

    Jesus, the only begotten Son of God, is the natural “heir” and SUBSTANCE of the Father. “God said to him, ‘You are my Son; today I have become your Father’” (Hebrews 5:5; cf. Psalm 2:7). Christ’s inheritance is the whole universe, HIS SPIRIT IS POURED ALL OVER AND SEALED IN THE ENTIRE CREATION: John6:27. Hebrews 1:2 says that the Son has been

    “appointed heir of all things.”

    Being a co-heir with Christ means that we, as God’s adopted children,

    will share in the inheritance of Jesus.

    What belongs to Jesus will also belong to us.

    Not the other way round Mike AS YOU PREACH!!!

    Christ gives us His glory (John 17:22),

    His riches (2 Corinthians 8:9), and all things (Hebrews 1:2).

    We are as welcome in God’s family as Jesus is;

    JESUS MADE HUMANITY

    AUTHENTIC IN HIS OWN FLESH AND BLOOD BODY ON HIS RESURRECTION Mike!

    HE GAVE US HIS BODY! 1Peter 1:3. Well asserted in the last supper!

    EAT THIS IS MY FLESH WHICH IS 

    GIVEN FOR YOU!

    ON HIS RESURRECTION!

    we are “accepted in the Beloved” (Ephesians 1:6, NKJV).

    All that belongs to Jesus Christ will belong to us, the co-heirs, as well.

    Everything that God owns, THANKS TO JESUS CHRIST, John17:10,  belongs to us as well IN CHRIST because we belong to Him.

    WE ARE CHRIST’S PROPERTY! John17:2

    Our eternal inheritance as co-heirs

    with Christ:

    ONE SUBSTANCE WITH CHRIST!!!

    is the result of the amazing grace of God in

    JESUS CHRIST

    GODMAN

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #870498
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @genebalthrop

    Mike…..there is not a single scripture that “says” Jesus “existed before Abraham ” not one.  Lets just start with that first,

    There is no single scripture that says that Jesus was created in the time of the Roman Empire either. But scripture teaches those who seek the truth this very clearly. That God made all things through him. That is all things. There was not one thing that existed without him. God actually created all things through the Word, The Son, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Hint: These are not three persons. They are the same person.

    1. The Word. See John 1:3
    2. The Son. See Hebrews 1:1-2 & Colossians 1: 15-20
    3. Lord Jesus Christ. See 1 Corinthians 8:6

    You have no answer for these scriptures, only excuses. And you do realise that liars do not inherit the Kingdom of God right?

    John 1:1-3
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    Hebrews 1:1-2
    In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

    Colossians 1: 15-20
    The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

    1 Corinthians 8:6
    yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

    #870546
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Proclaimer,

    Great post to Gene!

    Blessings, LU

    #870547
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    You said:

    Amen

    Very interesting Lu
    May God continue to guide you

    Kind of you, Berean, thanks I will need it!

    Many blessings,

    LU

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