John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 21,781 through 21,800 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #869406
    carmel
    Participant

     

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: Carmel……David answered your question ,  THE LORD  “YAHOVAH ”  his God and our God , delivered him, just as he delivered him from the lion and the bear. 

    Gene, I’m afraid you simply ignored both my post and my question!

    My question was

    WHO KILLED GOLIATH? Now with the same argument:

    HERE ANOTHER QUESTION THEN:

    WHO KILLED ABEL?

    CAIN, 

    SATAN, OR

    GOD!

    Nothing absolutely nothing could be fulfilled without God’s will who is the overall ruler of the entire creation and its processes!

    The Father was not involved in my question, it is between

    Soul and David in relation to your mentality regarding

    more or less an identical task

    Between the Father and the Son!

    ONE GOD! 

    ONE SUBSTANCE! Hebrews 1:3

    GET THIS INTO YOUR MIND FOR GOD’S SAKE AND TRUTH!

    THERE IS NO TASK ACHIEVED BY GOD THE FATHER IN THE PROCESS OF CREATION  THROUGHOUT

    IF NOT IN ONE HARMONY WITH HIS SON!

    NO FATHER NO JESUS, NO JESUS NO FATHER!

    Gene, JESUS PURPOSELY DIED AND GAVE HUMANITY HIS OWN DEAD BODY

    ON HIS RESURRECTION!

    EAT this is MY FLESH which is

    GIVEN for YOU!

    THE FATHER WAS NOT IN THE POSITION TO BE IN FLESH NEVER MIND DIE AND GIVE HIS FLESH TO HUMANITY, FROM THE OTHER HAND

    THE FATHER FURNISHED JESUS’FLESH,  AS JESUS, LIKE THE FATHER, WAS A SPIRIT IN THE BOSOM OF

    THE FATHER HIS OWN

    “WORD”

    Now read the scripture hereunder and

    ACCEPT THE TRUTH!

    Isaiah 45:14

    Thus saith the Lord: ( JEHOVAH)

    The labour of Egypt, and the merchandise of Ethiopia, and of Sabaim, men of stature

    shall come over to thee, and shall be thine:

    they shall walk after thee, they shall go bound with manacles:

    and they shall worship thee,

    and shall make supplication to thee:

    only in thee is God, and there is no God besides thee.

    15Verily thou art a hidden God,

    the God of Israel

    THE SAVIOUR.(JESUS)

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #869407
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: Berean……Yes it is God almighty, the “only” true God,  according to the “man” Jesus.

    Gene, answer

    WHY GOD THE FATHER WAS NOT IN THE POSITION TO PROCLAIM HIMSELF

    throughout scripture

    AS THE ONLY TRUE GOD???

    WHY GOD THE FATHER SIMPLY RELIED on

    A MERE MAN JESUS???

    THE TRUE GOD ON EARTH 1John5:20

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #869413
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @Proclaimer

    Welcome back, I hope you had a nice break.

    I’m pasting an unanswered post of mine to you, asked originally on January 9th or thereabouts.

    Hebrews 1

    O Lord,

    You laid the foundations of the earth,

    and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

    11They will perish, but You remain;

    they will all wear out like a garment.

    12You will roll them up like a robe;

    like a garment they will be changed;

    but You remain the same,

    and Your years will never end.”

    This OT passage gives further witness to that here:

    Compare with Psalm 102

    24I say, “O my God, do not take me away in the midst of my days,
    Your years are throughout all generations.

    25“Of old You founded the earth,
    And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

    26“Even they will perish, but You endure;
    And all of them will wear out like a garment;
    Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed.

    27“But You are the same,
    And Your years will not come to an end.

    PC, who is the Father identifying as the YHVH who founded the earth and the heavens are the work of His hands?

    LU

    #869414
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @Berean

    You said:

    Conclusion

    FATHER AND SON SHARE THE SAME DIVINE NAME : YHVH

    Yeshua Hamashiach IS THE DIVINO/HUMAN NAME OF THE SON OF GOD.

    THIS IS THAT I BELEIVE

    Amen and glory to YHVH, I agree with your conclusion! Btw, thanks for the peaceful music.

    LU

    #869415
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @Danny Dabbs

    Do you agree with Berean’s conclusion here (see his long post on this page):

    Conclusion

    FATHER AND SON SHARE THE SAME DIVINE NAME : YHVH

    Yeshua Hamashiach IS THE DIVINO/HUMAN NAME OF THE SON OF GOD.

    THIS IS THAT I BELEIVE

    #869416
    carmel
    Participant

    He Gene,

    YOU: Danny , seeing it was God the Father who sent him,  So who is the “TRUE” SAVIOR OF THE WORLD? 

    It was “God” the Father who sent Jesus, Jesus never sent himself did he?

    Gene, according to your own words, which proceed from your heart are full of

    fire for the truth!

    Here comes pure truth for you, always in relation to what truth means for you, with every respect read:

    John16:6 But because I have spoken these things to you, sorrow hath filled your heart. 7But I tell you the truth:

    it is expedient to you that I go:

    for if I go not,

    the Paraclete will not come to you;

    but if I go,

    I will send him to you.

    OK Gene, as clear as crystal:

    NOT THE FATHER SENT THE HOLY SPIRIT, PARACLETE, THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH and so on. But

    JESUS CHRIST

    GODMAN ON EARTH!

    THE SUPREME RULER OVER ALL AND THE MOST POWERFUL SPIRIT!

    The fact that Jesus Christ SENT THE HOLY SPIRIT ON EARTH!

    NOW READ THIS SCRIPTURE AND ANSWER PLEASE

    FOR THE SAKE OF TRUTH:

    Acts 5:3 But Peter said: Ananias, why hath Satan tempted thy heart,

    that thou shouldst lie to the Holy Ghost,…….

     Thou hast not lied to men,

    but to God.

    And Ananias hearing these words,

    fell down, and gave up the ghost.

    And there came great fear upon all that heard it. 

    As clear as crystal Gene,

    Jesus sent the Holy Ghost!!!

    WHO KILLED ANANIAS!

    GOD IN JESUS CHRIST?

    GOD IN THE HOLY GHOST? OR

    GOD IN THE FATHER?

    Now to make you aware read who in actual fact is

    THE TRUE GOD up to the day of the Lord

    John16:8 And when he is come, he will convince the world

    of sin, and

    of justice, and

    of judgment.

     9Of sin: because they believed not in me. (GODMAN ON EARTH)

    10And of justice: because I go to the Father;

    and you shall see me no longer.

    11And of judgment: because the prince of this world is

    already judged.

    (NOT THE GOD OF THE WORLD)

    12 I have yet many things to say to you: but you cannot bear them now. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth.

    For he shall not speak of himself;

    but what things soever he shall hear, (Anania’s case)he shall speak;( TO PETER) and the things that are to come, he shall shew you.(Anania’s death)

    14He shall glorify me;

    because he shall receive of mine,

    (Christ’s power  THE TRUE GODMAN ON EARTH in Anania’s DEATH)

    and shall shew it to you.

    15All things whatsoever the Father hath,

    are mine.

    (IN RELATION TO HUMANITY)

    Therefore I said, that he shall receive of mine, and shew it to you.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #869417
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……God is “HOLY”.   AND HE “IS” Spirit,  according to Jesus.  The Spirit of truth is from God the Father, this Spirit of truth was given Jesus, through his anointing he received at the Jordan river. The Spirit of truth is one way God is in “ALL AND THROUGH ALL.” ,  The reason Ananias fell down dead was because he had the spirit of truth “in” him and know he lied against it.  Did not Jesus say blasphemy against would not be forgiven men, not now or in the future. 

    you problem is you don’t understand what a Spirit is , in my opinion. Spirits can dwell “in” human flesh, both clean and unclean can. Just as Jesus explained about the unclean spirit .

    A Spirit is simply put “a SPIRIT gives us it’s cognitive awareness. The spirit of truth gives us the ability to “PERCEIVE” THE TRUTH,  WHEN WE HEAR IT.  Therefore a person that has it can not be deceived by liars and those who preach false things.

    There are SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD,  THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH IS ONE OF THEM , called the “EARNEST” of God given unto those he has chosen.

    Those of the Spirit of truth , know those who are also of the spirit because they recognize it when they hear it.
    if everyone here had it we would all be in agreement here. Saying the same things, that how I know you are not of the truth Carmel, because you are not believing what Jesus said , nor are you retaining it. “For the Spirit shall bring into you memory “all” the things I have told you.  Not just some verses here and there , that can be manipulated  to say something they do not actually mean and go against the truth of God.
    Why do you think there are thousands of churches preaching different things,  Do you think they are all lead by the Spirit of Truth,  no they aren’t, because nearly all Christianity has fallen away from the simplicity that is in Christ, and has come up with all kinds of false teachings, mixing up the truth with all kind of Carnal  and pagan reasonings, turning The Man Jesus into their God , which breakers the very first and most important commandment of God there is. According to Jesus , that is if you “TRULY” believe him and his GOD.

    peace and love to you and yours…………gene

     

    #869418
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    There are dozens of people on this forum who have shown you who Jesus really is. If you really had the spirit of truth, you would have received what is THE TRUTH ABOUT JESUS BUT IT IS NOT THE CASE.

    #869419
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @Lightenup

    Do you agree with Berean’s conclusion here (see his long post on this page):
    Conclusion
    FATHER AND SON SHARE THE SAME DIVINE NAME : YHVH
    Yeshua Hamashiach IS THE DIVINO/HUMAN NAME OF THE SON OF GOD.
    THIS IS THAT I BELEIVE

    Yes, I believe that the Father and the Son share the same divine name YHVH
    And I personally believe that this name is: YAHWEH.

    Yes, I believe that Yeshua Hamashiach is the divine/human name of the Son of God.

    #869420
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    First and foremost:

    Thank you for the lesson regarding the spirit???

    YOU: Danny ,

    seeing it was God the Father who sent him,

     So who is the “TRUE” SAVIOR OF THE WORLD? 

    It was “God” the Father who sent Jesus, Jesus never sent himself did he?

    Gene your long post is not only useless but it doesn’t make sense, in relation to

    the question I asked you.

    Your argument is

    The Father sent Jesus so

    the Father is our saviour 

    Read again Gene

    John16:7 But I tell you the truth:

    it is expedient to you that I go:

    for if I go not,

    the Paraclete will not come to you;

    but if I go,

    I will send him to you.

    In the above case

    Jesus sent the Holy Ghost!!!

    Now read hereunder:

    Acts 5:3 But Peter said: Ananias, why hath Satan tempted thy heart,

    that thou shouldst lie to the Holy Ghost,…….

     Thou hast not lied to men,

    but to God.

    And Ananias hearing these words,

    fell down, and gave up the ghost.

    And there came great fear upon all that heard it.

    Now IF YOU REALLY BELIEVE IN THE TRUH, answer Gene please:

    ACCORDING TO YOU:

    WHO KILLED ANANIAS!

     

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #869441
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…..God the Father who is Spirit took the spirit of life from him, For lying against the Spirit of truth. Simple as that. He and his wife know exactly that they were not telling the truth, so God took the Spirit of life from them and they died.

    The reason people like you and others here don’t fall over dead also, is because your blind to the truth and don’t know it ,  being in deception, is not the same as lying to the Spirit. You are in error also but don’t truthfully know it, “yet”.

    When you do  come to know it, your judgement will be different, because all the world will come to know that God the Father, is the “ONLY” “TRUE ” GOD” , JUST LIKE JESUS SAID HE WAS.  Did not God himself say ,  they shall “all” know of me, from the least to the greatest?
    Carmel if you were of the truth you would simply believe what Jesus plainly said, and not try to change what he said to meet your churches false teachings. 
    Jesus is not God the Father or any other God, he is exactly as he said he is and was over 80 times , he is a “A SON OF MAN”  , he is not a mangod of any kind.  The doctrine of the ” TRINITY” is nothing but a false teaching, that false unaware teachers like yourself and others teach. 

    If you were of the truth then you would suffer the same fate as Ananias and his wife suffered, because you would know your not speaking the truth,  and great fear would fall on every one here who believes and teaches  as you do also.

    repent CARMEL, while you can. IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours…………gene

     

    #869446
    Ed J
    Participant

    Yes, I believe that the Father and the Son share the same divine name YHVH

    Hi Danny,

    Funny how right after I show you that isn’t the case,
    you go right on repeating it as if it is true.

    Odd really ???

    #869447
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Danny,  God the Father “does not”  share the same name as Jesus.  They are two different beings, one is named YAHOVAH  our GOD,  the other is the son , Jesus the human anointed one, who has “many ” brothers. 
    Are you and your Father the same person?  Trying to make Jesus have the same name and be the same person as God the Father is simply false teachings of the apostate churches .  Changing the “image” of Jesus into a God, is exactly what Paul was talking about in 2Ths 2 .  

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

    #869448
    Berean
    Participant

    To all,

    When we want to study a deep problem, we
    let’s focus our minds on what’s never been more wonderful
    on earth or in heaven: the incarnation of the Son of God. God gave
    his Son so that He would die an ignominious and shameful death for
    sinful human beings. He who was the Commander of the courts
    heavenly, took off His kingly mantle and crown, to put on His
    deity of mankind and come to this world to be the head of
    human race as a Model Man. He humbled Himself for
    suffer with the human race, to be afflicted with all its
    tribulations.
    … The Son of God came willingly to carry out the work of
    atonement. No binding yoke rested on Him, for He was
    independent and above all law.
    The angels, as intelligent messengers of God, were
    under the yoke of obligation; no sacrifice of their person could
    make atonement for fallen man. Only Christ was free from
    requirements of the law to undertake the redemption of the race
    sinful. He had the power to lay down His life to take it back.
    “Existing in the form of God, [He] did not regard as a prey to
    to tear away from being equal with God ”(Philippians 2: 6).

    Christ entered the world as a destroyer of
    Satan and Redeemer of the captives held under his power. He wanted,
    by a victorious life, leave an example to follow so that the man
    triumph over Satan’s temptations. Christ changed his face from his
    entry into the wilderness of temptation … the weight of the sins of the world
    weighed on her soul, her face expressed unspeakable pain, a
    intense anguish, such as no human has ever felt. The
    wave of doom that had swept over the world oppressed him. He mesured
    the strength of the raging appetite and impure passions that dominated the
    world, which had brought on man inexpressible suffering …
    Since man could not, by human force, resist
    to the mighty temptations of Satan, Jesus offered himself willingly to
    undertake this work, assuming the burden of man, and
    to defeat the power of appetite in its place.

    #869449
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    I’m asking you all to please hear me out.

    There is a freemasonic antichristian conspiracy even in the church.
    The freemasons want to destroy the church with their Y teachings.
    They know that we need BOTH the Father and His Son for salvation. John 17:3!!!
    So they have found ways to separate them.
    For example they love to attack the only true biblical Father of Jesus Christ.
    Making Him bad and they are telling us that there are two different Gods in the Bible.
    But Jesus without His only true biblical Father can’t save.
    There is only ONE Father of Jesus Christ in the Bible.
    There is no this side is white and the other dark.
    Or this side is dark and the other white.
    Both are freemasonic misleading tactics.
    I hope anyone will understand.
    Everything is fine with the Bible.
    The key is to understand that the Bible is the Word of God.
    So there are no issues at all. It’s really that simple.
    Remember everything is fine with the Bible.

    My love to all of you in Christ Jesus. Amen.

    Danny

    #869450
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Danny Dabbs, I have continually heard strange things about the Freemasons. I am not at all surprised by what you say about them.

    The Father and Son are both wonderful and loving and I think of them as perfectly united and interdependent on each other together with their Holy Spirit.

    Interdependence does not show weakness but instead brings a sense of wisdom and synergy to their relationship, imo.

    God bless, LU

    #869451
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Berean,

    You said:

    Since man could not, by human force, resist
    to the mighty temptations of Satan, Jesus offered himself willingly to
    undertake this work, assuming the burden of man, and
    to defeat the power of appetite in its place.

    I’m so thankful that Jesus emptied himself of the glory that he had before he was brought forth into the womb of Mary and clothed in human flesh, to come down to earth and live perfectly in our place in order to redeem us back to God. Jesus is so wonderful, the Father is so loving, and their spirit is so comforting.

    Blessings, LU

    #869452
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Gene,

    Jesus didn’t say that he wasn’t good. In fact, he basically said that he was so good that one should sell all their posessions and follow HIM as he leads them to eternal life.

    I want to follow Jesus like that.

    Blessings, LU

    #869453
    Berean
    Participant

    Amen LU 

     

     

    #869454
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    LU….. Jesus said, not me,  

    luk 18: 19…..”Why callest thou “me good? “NONE” is good, SAVE ONE,  that is God.

    Do you actually think that statement of Jesus, doesn’t apply to him also? Do you think the ruler was not talking to him?  Do you believe Jesus was lying when he said that?

    LU…..You see that’s the trouble here, many say they believe in Jesus, but don’t truly  believe in what he says.

    Fact is what Jesus said there is “EXACTLY” RIGHT,  there is “ONLY” ONE that is truly or completely good , and that is God the Father.  Jesus was not saying we or he don’t do good things, at times.  Because he also said this,  ‘if you being evil know how to give “good gifts”,  to your children , how much more will you Heavenly Father give them that ask of his spirit,  so yes we all do good at times even Jesus is called “the “good” shepherd” right?,  But Jesus was speaking of the only one that was “completely good” and that is God the Father, He is the , ONLY  “TRULY” GOOD ONE.  

    Peace and love to you and yours……..gene

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