John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 21,761 through 21,780 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #869381
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Berean

    You said: My reflection is especially on the fact that God created humanity endowed with free will and that He could have done it without the collaboration of his Son.

    How do you know that God, the Father could have created anything apart from his Son? Maybe, but how do you know? I lean towards the possibility that the Father could not have created anything apart from the Son. What if the process of begetting the Son provided the water and the elements of life, for instance. Then the Son would certainly be necessary for creation to take place.

    Think about this…when a woman goes through the process of giving birth, things like the placenta and amniotic fluid, which weren’t there before the process, appear during the process. When birth is about to happen, her “water breaks” and then the birth of the offspring, and after that, the “after birth” comes out. Where do you think the water came from in Genesis 1? That afterbirth that comes after the offspring is delivered, has stem cells in it which you might know, can become many different things. It could be that the begetting of the Son before creation was a sort of a “big bang” that began creation.

    Job 38:8 “Or who enclosed the sea with doors When, bursting forth, it went out from the womb;

    God bless, LU

    #869382
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Berean,

    Good list,  “Jehovah Tsidkenu (The Lord Our Righteousness)” is clearly applied to Jesus.

     

    #869383
    Lightenup
    Participant

    All praise to Yahweh the Father in Heaven
    and to His Son Jesus Christ/Yeshua Hamashiach. Amen.

    Agree Danny Dabbs!

    #869387
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Lu….Jesus said…..why call me good, there is “ONLY” “ONE” that is good , and that is GOD”. SEEMS JESUS did not want anyone to call him Good,  so what makes you think God could not have created anything without Jesus?
    God the Father said this…..Isa 45:18….For this says the LORD,  that created the heavens; God “HIMSELF” THAT FORMED THE EARTH AND Made it ; “HE” has established it, “HE” created it not in vain, “HE” formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD / YAHOVAH, AND THERE IS “NONE” ELSE. 

    Peace and love to you and yours………….gene

    #869388
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    To all….. If you worship and call JESUS your God, and creator,  what do you do about the “many” of his brothers?
    Scripture says, Jesus is the firstborn of “many” brothers.  Why do you push Jesus away from your own identity as a human being?  Can’t’ you see that is exactly what Satan wants you to do?

    He doesn’t want you to believe he is and was “EXACTLY” as we are, “why”, Because he doesn’t want you to truly understand what God the father did for Jesus he can also do “EXACTLY” the same for you. So he created the idea that Jesus was a “PREEXISTING” GOD, WHO CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN TO THIS EARTH, “WHY”, to cause us to move Jesus away from our own identity with him on a human level. 2Ths2 is exactly what has happened in the church.
    THAT IS THE BIGGEST LIE EVER CREATED,  ON HUMANITY , 
    this lie turns the image of The Man Jesus Into a PREEXISTING God, and directly breakers the first commandment ,  “you shall have no other God besides me”.  All those who believe Jesus preexisted his life on this earth as a God, have turned the 
    “image”,  of Jesus into,  “a man of sin”,  because it breakers the first commandment of God.

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

    #869389
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @genebalthrop

    Hi Gene,

    Is Jesus Christ your Savior?

    #869390
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Danny….“No” I don’t believe Jesus is my savior,  I believe God the Father is my savior,  and he does it through the sacrificing  of his son , the man Jesus as payment for my sins.

    “GOD” so loved the world, that “HE” gave his only begotten (in and through humanity) Son, that he who believes in him “should not” parish but have everlasting life.  (Parentheses mine)

    That Danny, is a work of “GOD” the Father, which “HE” BROUGHT ABOUT, IN, and THROUGH His anointed son, the  “MAN”  Jesus .

    Isa 45: 21…. Tell you and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told told it from that time? Have not I the LORD? and there is “NO” GOD else beside me:  a just God and a “SAVIOUR” ; there is “NONE” beside me.

     

    Question is Danny , do you believe what God says, like Jesus did , or do you believe what fallen Christianity says?  That is the true question here Danny.

    peace and love to you and yours………..gene

    #869391
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi To all

     

    #869392
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @genebalthrop

    “No” I don’t believe Jesus is my savior

    Then I urge you to accept Jesus Christ as your personal Savior.
    Because Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world.
    1 John 4:14 “We have seen and testify that the Father
    has sent the Son as the Savior of the world.”

    Question is Danny , do you believe what God says

    Yes, I do.
    1 John 4:14 “We have seen and testify that the Father
    has sent the Son as the Savior of the world.”

    #869395
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi To all

    Give me Jesus

    #869396
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Danny , seeing it was God the Father who sent him,  So who is the “TRUE” SAVIOR OF THE WORLD? 

    • It was “God” the Father who sent Jesus, Jesus never sent himself did he?
      Who 
      sent the saviors MOSES AND MANY OTHER SAVIORS TO SAVE ISREAL OVER AND OVER WAS IT THE SAVIORS OR GOD THE FATHER  WHO SENT THEM?  WHO ACTUALLY SAVED THE PEOPLE,  by the power of God in them. 

    WHAT YOU PEOPLE DO IS pay Jesus for what GOD THE father did through him.  What did Jesus say about that.  HERE is what he said concerning himself,  

    John 5 : 19….Then answered Jesus and said unto them ,  “verily, verily, I say unto you, the son can do “NOTHING” of  ” HIMSELF”, but  what he sees the Father do:  

    John 5:30 … Again what Jesus said not what false teachers say…“I can of my own self do “NOTHING”: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not “MINE” OWN “WILL” , but the “WILL” of the Father which has sent me.  
    He that has ears to here let him hear. 

    Danny do you understand the words of Jesus?
    Jesus could do no more works then any of the other saviors God sent to Israel could On their  own could do,  only what God gave them  to do. . But because you people think Jesus is and was a GOD, you believe and preach Jesus as him saving us by himself you don’t understand it was God the Father doing the works.  But if you truly believed what Jesus himself said , you would know , Jesus of “himself” could do nothing.  It was God the Father who was and is saving us. 

    John 6 : 45……It is written in the prophets, And they shall be “all” taught of (by)  God:  “Every man therefore that hath heard, and  has learned of (from)  the Father, comes unto me.

    John 6: 65…..And he (Jesus) said,  “Therefore said I unto you, that “NO” man “Can” come unto me except  it were given unto him of (from) my Father.

    Danny again I say unto you and all, there is “ONLY” ONE “TRUE”  “SAVIOR” and that is God the Father , no matter who he choses to do it through.  He and he alone is the one doing it.

    Time to start believing what Jesus himself said,  instead of what fallen Christianity is saying.

    Peace and love to you and yours……..gene

     

    He that has the eyes to see let him see.

    #869397
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    Certainly the Son could / can do nothing without the Father; but neither could the Father save the world without HIS OWN SON ….

    No one else could be the substitute and the guarantor of humanity than THE ONLY SON OF GOD

    IF JESUS HAD FAVORED WE WOULD BE WITHOUT HOPE … SEE THIS …

    #869398
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @genebalthrop

    Gene can you say our Saviour Jesus Christ?
    If not then please read 2 Timothy 1:10
    “But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:”

    God bless,

    Danny

    #869399
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: Danny , seeing it was God the Father who sent him,  So who is the “TRUE” SAVIOR OF THE WORLD? 

    Gene read and answer please!

    Samuel 17:32 And when he was brought to him, he said to him:

    Let not any man’s heart be dismayed in him: I thy servant will go, and will fight against the Philistine.

    33And Saul said to David: Thou art not able to withstand this Philistine, nor to fight against him: for thou art but a boy, but he is a warrior from his youth.  37And David said: The Lord who delivered me out of the paw of the lion, and out of the paw of the bear, he will deliver me out of the hand of this Philistine.

    And Saul said to David:

    Go, and the Lord be with thee. 

    Answer Gene:

    SOUL GAVE THE GO AHEAD TO DAVID RIGHT?

    WHO KILLED GOLIATH THEN?

    SOUL or 

    DAVID?

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

    #869400
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: It was “God” the Father who sent Jesus, Jesus never sent himself did he?

    ME: Hebrews 7:27 Who needeth not daily (as the other priests) to offer sacrifices first for his own sins, and then for the people’s:

    for this he did once,

    in offering himself. 

    Ephesians 5:21Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; 2And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us,

    and hath given himself for us

    an offering and a sacrifice

    to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

    The above scriptures, Gene, emphatically proclaim  that

    JESUS OFFERED HIMSELF AS THE SACRIFICE, and God the Father sent him!

    Now the thing you have to grasp is that the Father sent Him in His place, as it was not possible for the Father, A SPIRIT, to come on earth in

    A CURSED FLESH, apart from that He was too powerful, and could not reveal Himself to humanity unless they all be eradicated by His power!

    The fact that Lucifer took advantage of the situation and rebelled!

    So in actual fact, as Jesus Himself declared

    HE WAS IN THE FATHER and

    THE FATHER WAS IN HIM!

    There’s no difference between the Father and the Son since both are

    equivalently need each other for the kingdom of God

    Well declared by Jesus in

    Luke 10:22 All things are delivered to me by my Father, and

    no one knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and

    who the Father is, but the Son, and

    to whom the Son will reveal Him!

    REVEAL HIM,   OBVIOUS IN HIS UNIQUE EMBODIMENT!

    JESUS CHRIST GODMAN ON EARTH! 1John5:20

    the fact that it is

    THE KINGDOM OF THE SON, 

    ALL IN THE SON,  ALL BY THE SON, and ALL FOR THE SON

     JESUS DIED!

    JESUS GAVE HIS DEAD BODY TO HUMANITY ON HIS RESURRECTION!

    Well asserted in the last supper:

    EAT THIS IS MY FLESH WHICH IS 

    GIVEN

    FOR YOU! I repeat:

    ON HIS RESURRECTION!

    BUT AGAIN FURNISHED AND EMPOWERED BY THE FATHER, Luke 10:22 above, and

    FOR THE GLORY OF GOD!

    THE FACT THAT GOD FURNISHED HIS SON,  A SPIRIT

    “THE WORD ” MADE FLESH PRECISELY WITH 

    THE UNIQUE PURE DIVINE FLESH,

    Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

    THE FATHER’S SUBSTANCE Hebrews 1:3

    John17:1 THESE things Jesus spoke, and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said:

    Father, the hour is come,

    glorify thy Son,

    that thy Son may glorify thee. 

     

    The oneness of God manifested on earth in

    the Father and the Son

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #869401
    Ed J
    Participant

    Berean….please produce one scripture that says “Before he was on earth his name YHVH or YAHOVAH. “. Berean

    There is none Gene,

    Because they promote a fallacy

    Jesus name is “YA-shu-a” not YeHoHaH – which is his Jesus’ father’s name.
    They only share the the first part of God’s name (יה)
    But the lies will likely continue.

    “Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee,
    and thou be found a liar.” (Prov 30:6)

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #869402
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……David answered your question ,  THE LORD  “YAHOVAH ”  his God and our God , delivered him, just as he delivered him from the lion and the bear. 

    Carmel,  Jesus was “all” about what God the Father was doing, in and through him,  he was an obedient servant of the Father as a “obedient” son.

    Carmel, my point is this,  who is worthy of greater honor the , “the one who could do “NOTHING ” of himself”,  or the one that “all things are possible with”.  Jesus spent his whole time on this earth giving honor to the God the Father,  saying “I have glorified “you” upon the earth”,  but you people act as if God the Father is not even in the picture of your salvation when he is the very one that saves us. 

    Everything Jesus had, including his very life he owed to God the Father, Jesus did not raise himself from the dead, it was God the Father that raised him.  What you people have done is replace God the Father with Jesus, something Jesus never did.  Jesus’ whole ministry was strictly about God the Father, and his obedience to him.   He came and preached the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

    Telling us to pray this way,  “Our Father ( his and ours) who is in heaven, “Holy”,  be “thy” name , “thy” kingdom come, “thy” will be done,  on earth just as it is in heaven, …..and how does it end up?, FOR THINE IS THE POWER AND GLORY FOR EVER. 

    But your false trinitarian teachings have change that and you make everything about Jesus, at the expense of the one that Created it all.  That’s my point in this discussion. This is the way I see it. 

    I do bow my knee to Jesus,  “unto the “GLORY” OF GOD. 

    But you people have removed God from his position of Greatest honor and Glory as the most important being of all including Jesus himself, this is something Jesus Christ never did or would ever do either. You preach Jesus but don’t believe what he says about God the Father as the “only ” true God. 

    peace and love to you and yours………gene

    #869403
    Berean
    Participant

    Edj

    Read PSALM 24 especialy verse 7 TO the  end .

     

    THIS IS ABOUT THE SON OF GOD (A PROPHECY)
    RETURNING TO THE CELESTIAL CITY AFTER HIS RESURRECTION.
    FROM THE VERSE 7 TO THE END OF Psalm

     

    Modern Hebrew
    שאו שערים ראשיכם
    והנשאו פתחי עולם
    ויבוא מלך הכבוד׃

    Paleo-Hebrew (Before 585 B.C.)
    24:7

    .

     

    Hebrew Transliterated
    24:7 Sh’aV Sh’yUrYM Ur’aShYKM VHNSh’aV PhThChY ‘yVLM VYBV’a MLK HKBVD.

     

    Latin Vulgate
    24:7 levate portae capita vestra et elevamini ianuae sempiternae et ingrediatur rex gloriae

     

    King James Version
    24:7 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.

     

    American Standard Version
    24:7 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; And be ye lifted up, ye everlasting doors: And the King of glory will come in.

     

    Bible in Basic English
    24:7 Let your heads be lifted up, O doors; be lifted up, O you eternal doors: that the King of glory may come in.

     

    Darby’s English Translation
    24:7 Lift up your heads, ye gates, and be ye lifted up, ye everlasting doors, and the King of glory shall come in.

     

    Douay Rheims Bible
    24:7 Lift up your gates, O ye princes, and be ye lifted up, O eternal gates: and the King of Glory shall enter in.

     

    Noah Webster Bible
    24:7 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lifted up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.

     

    World English Bible
    24:7 Lift up your heads, you gates; Be lifted up, you everlasting doors: The King of glory will come in.

     

    Young’s Literal Translation
    24:7 Lift up, O gates, your heads, And be lifted up, O doors age-during, And come in doth the king of glory!

    8
    Modern Hebrew
    מי זה מלך הכבוד
    יהוה עזוז וגבור
    יהוה גבור מלחמה׃

    Paleo-Hebrew (Before 585 B.C.)
    24:8

    .

     

    Hebrew Transliterated
    24:8 MY ZH MLK HKBVD YHVH ‘yZVZ VGBVUr YHVH GBVUr MLChMH.

     

    Latin Vulgate
    24:8 quis est iste rex gloriae Dominus fortis et potens Dominus fortis in proelio

     

    King James Version
    24:8 Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.

     

    American Standard Version
    24:8 Who is the King of glory? Jehovah strong and mighty, Jehovah mighty in battle.

     

    Bible in Basic English
    24:8 Who is the King of glory? The Lord of strength and power, the Lord strong in war.

     

    Darby’s English Translation
    24:8 Who is this King of glory? Jehovah strong and mighty, Jehovah mighty in battle.

     

    Douay Rheims Bible
    24:8 Who is this King of Glory? the Lord who is strong and mighty: the Lord mighty in battle.

     

    Noah Webster Bible
    24:8 Who is this King of glory? the LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.

     

    World English Bible
    24:8 Who is the King of glory? Yahweh strong and mighty, Yahweh mighty in battle.

     

    Young’s Literal Translation
    24:8 Who is this — the king of glory? Jehovah — strong and mighty, Jehovah, the mighty in battle.

    9
    Modern Hebrew
    שאו שערים ראשיכם
    ושאו פתחי עולם
    ויבא מלך הכבוד׃

    Paleo-Hebrew (Before 585 B.C.)
    24:9

    .

     

    Hebrew Transliterated
    24:9 Sh’aV Sh’yUrYM Ur’aShYKM VSh’aV PhThChY ‘yVLM VYB’a MLK HKBVD.

     

    Latin Vulgate
    24:9 levate portae capita vestra et erigite ianuae sempiternae et ingrediatur rex gloriae

     

    King James Version
    24:9 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.

     

    American Standard Version
    24:9 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; Yea, lift them up, ye everlasting doors: And the King of glory will come in.

     

    Bible in Basic English
    24:9 Let your heads be lifted up, O doors; let them be lifted up, O you eternal doors: that the King of glory may come in.

     

    Darby’s English Translation
    24:9 Lift up your heads, ye gates; yea, lift up, ye everlasting doors, and the King of glory shall come in.

     

    Douay Rheims Bible
    24:9 Lift up your gates, O ye princes, and be ye lifted up, O eternal gates: and the King of Glory shall enter in.

     

    Noah Webster Bible
    24:9 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.

     

    World English Bible
    24:9 Lift up your heads, you gates; Yes, lift them up, you everlasting doors: The King of glory will come in.

     

    Young’s Literal Translation
    24:9 Lift up, O gates, your heads, And be lifted up, O doors age-during, And come in doth the king of glory!

    10
    Modern Hebrew
    מי הוא זה מלך
    הכבוד יהוה צבאות
    הוא מלך הכבוד
    סלה׃

    Paleo-Hebrew (Before 585 B.C.)
    24:10

    .

     

    Hebrew Transliterated
    24:10 MY HV’a ZH MLK HKBVD YHVH TShB’aVTh HV’a MLK HKBVD SLH.

     

    Latin Vulgate
    24:10 quis est iste rex gloriae Dominus exercituum ipse est rex gloriae semper

     

    King James Version
    24:10 Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.

     

    American Standard Version
    24:10 Who is this King of glory? Jehovah of hosts, He is the King of glory. Selah

     

    Bible in Basic English
    24:10 Who is the King of glory? The Lord of armies, he is the King of glory. (Selah.)

     

    Darby’s English Translation
    24:10 Who is he, this King of glory? Jehovah of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.

     

    Douay Rheims Bible
    24:10 Who is this King of Glory? the Lord of hosts, he is the King of Glory.

     

    Noah Webster Bible
    24:10 Who is this King of glory? the LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.

     

    World English Bible
    24:10 Who is this King of glory? Yahweh of Hosts, He is the King of glory. Selah.

     

    Young’s Literal Translation
    24:10 Who is He — this king of glory? Jehovah of hosts — He is the king of glory! Selah.

     

    Conclusion

    FATHER AND SON SHARE THE SAME DIVINE NAME : YHVH

    Yeshua Hamashiach IS THE DIVINO/HUMAN NAME OF THE SON OF GOD.

    THIS IS THAT I BELEIVE

     

     

    #869404
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean……Yes it is God almighty, the “only” true God,  according to the “man” Jesus.

    When are you people going to start to believing  what Jesus himself , “SAID”?

    peace and love to you and yours………gene

     

     

    #869405
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    In The PSALM 24:7-10

    THIS IS NOT About GOD BUT The SON OF GOD

    Hebrew Transliterated
    24:10 MY HV’a ZH MLK HKBVD YHVH TShB’aVTh HV’a MLK HKBVD SLH.

    Darby’s English Translation
    24:10 Who is he, this King of glory? Jehovah of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.

     

     

Viewing 20 posts - 21,761 through 21,780 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account