John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • #868818
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: Carmel……so to you Jesus did not say to the person , “why call “ME”  good, there is only “ONE” that is Good , and that is God “.  

     

    JESUS BY THOSE WORDS DIDN’T CONFIRM THAT HE IS NOT GOD!

    HE ONLY CONFIRMED THAT HE IS NOT THE FATHER, BUT THE SON.

    Luke 10:22 All things are delivered to me by my Father; and

    no one knoweth who the Son is, but the Father;

    and who the Father is, but the Son,

    and to whom the Son will reveal him.

     

    Gene, now read what Jesus said hereunder:

    Luke6:45 A good MAN

    Gene, AS YOU SAID:

    ONLY GOD IS GOOD

    precisely who ABIDES in

    IN THE UNIQUE GOOD MAN JESUS, 

    NOW answer Gene:  IS JESUS GOOD???

    READ AGAIN Luke 6:45

    A GOOD MAN

    out of the good treasure of his heart

    bringeth forth that which is GOOD:…

    Answer Gene again:

    WHAT ACTUALLY THE GOOD TREASURE

    OF THE GOOD MAN JESUS’ HEART IS???

    GOD THE FATHER NO???

    AND WHAT IS

    THE GOOD

    WHICH JESUS

     BROUGHT FORTH OUT OF 

    HIS GOOD TREASURE OF HIS HEART???

    THE GOSPEL NO???

    For out of the ABUNDANCE of the heart the mouth speaketh.

    Answer gene,

    WHAT IS THE ABUNDANCE

    OF JESUS’HEART, OUT OF WHICH ABUNDANCE

    JESUS’ MOUTH SPOKE???

    THE GOOD GOD NO???

    IS JESUS  THE GOOD GOD Gene???

    NOW READ

    John 14:9Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you;

    and have you not known me?

    Philip, he that seeth me (THE GOOD MAN) seeth the Father (THE GOD) also.

    How sayest thou, Shew us the Father? 

    10Do you not believe,

    that I (THE GOOD MAN)am in the Father, (THE GOD) and the Father (THE GOD)in me? (THE GOOD MAN)

    YOU:and to you he did not say this also,  “the Father “God” is greater then I am, and none can take them out of “his” hand”. 

    John10:28 My sheep hear my voice: and I know them, and they follow me. 

    28And I give them life everlasting; and they shall not perish for ever, and

    no man shall pluck them out of my hand. 

    29That which my Father hath given me,

    is greater than all:

    and no one can snatch them out of the hand of my Father.

     30I and the Father are one.

     

    And your Jesus did not say,  “ì “always” do what pleases the Father”. 

     

    WHAT DO YOU EXPECT Gene???

    THE FATHER ALWAYS DID WHAT PLEASES THE SON. NO???

    Philippians 2:9 For which cause God also hath exalted him,

    and hath given him a name which is above all names: 

    10That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth: 11And that every tongue should confess that

    the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father.

     

    Gene, THE FATHER AND THE SON ARE 

    ONE

    YOU: Carmel making Jesus your God turns you into an “IDOLATER” , and no “idolater” is excepted  by God the Father. 

    Repent while you still can,

    worship God the Father as the “ONLY” TRUE “GOD”,  AS Jesus our lord did.

     

    ME: Gene, JESUS ADORED THE FATHER AS A JEW, IN THE OLD TESTAMENT!

    NOW, JESUS ESTABLISHED

    THE NEW TESTAMENT 

    ALL IN HIM!!!

    John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth,

    will draw ALL THINGS to myself.

    ALL THINGS!!!

    IN SIMPLE PLAIN ENGLISH Gene,

    the way you accept things.

    but I’M AFRAID, only as long as it pleases you,  

    We (true believers) , are call alongside Jesus to worship God the Father exactly as Jesus does,

    as the “ONLY” TRUE GOD,   in spirit and truth. Not to try to turn him , INTO A GOD.

    READ Gene, and ACCEPT THE TRUTH!

    John 4:21 Jesus saith to her: Woman, believe me, that the hour cometh,

    when you shall neither on this mountain, not in Jerusalem, adore the Father. 

    ME: DO YOU GET WHAT JESUS MEANT IN THE ABOVE STATEMENT, Gene???

    JESUS SIMPLY MADE IT CERTAIN THAT

    THE OLD TESTAMENT OF ADORING THE FATHER IN TEMPLES ARE OVER AND DONE WITH! KEEP ON READING:

    22You adore that which you know not: we adore that which we know; for salvation is of the Jews. 

    WHAT DID JESUS MEAN AGAIN???

    HE AGAIN MADE IT CLEAR THAT IN THE OT, THERE WERE MANY WHO ADORE

    FALSE GODS, LIKE THE SAMARITANS, WHOM THEY NEVER KNEW THE TRUE GOD, BUT

    FROM JESUS’REDEMPTION ONWARD THERE ‘S ONLY

    ONE WAY OF ADORING THE FATHER,  READ:

    23But the hour cometh, and now is,

    when the true adorers shall adore the Father

    in spirit and in truth.

    For the Father

    also seeketh such to adore him. 

    ANSWER Gene, FROM REDEMPTION ONWARD

    WHO IS

    THE TRUTH???

    WHO IS THE SOVEREIGN

    SPIRIT

    OVER THE UNIVERSES???

    WHO MANIFESTED

    THE TRUE GOD ON EARTH???

    JESUS CHRIST

    READ Gene:

     1John5:20 And we know that

    the Son of God is come:

    and he hath given us understanding that we

    may know the TRUE GOD,

    and may be in his TRUE SON.

    This is the true God

    and life eternal.

    OUR LORD GOD AND FATHER

    JESUS CHRIST

    THAT’S THE ONLY WAY TO ADORE THE FATHER Gene!!!

    OK???

    THE FATHER IS NOT

    THE TRUTH ON HIS OWN, SINCE HE IS

    A SPIRIT, UNKNOWN!!!

    IN THE SAME WAY SATAN IS WHO CONSIDERS HIMSELF GOD OF THIS WORLD!

    THE FACT THAT SATAN OPTED TO BE AUTONOMOUS AND BELIEVED  THAT GOD

    WOULD NEVER BECOME MAN ON EARTH AND

    HE REMAINS

    LIKE THE MOST HIGH

    SPIRIT HIDDEN AND UNKNOWN!!!

    THE FACT THAT GOD HAS GIVEN HIS SON

    A UNIQUE MOST POWERFUL NAME! 

    JESUS

    Philippians 2:For which cause God also hath exalted him,

    and hath given him a name which is above all names: 

    10That in the name of

    JESUS!!!

    NOT IN THE NAME OF GOD Gene!!!

    every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth:

     11And that every tongue should confess that

    the Lord Jesus Christ

    is in the GLORY of

    God the Father.

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #868819
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Lightenup,

    YOU: Sorry Carmel,

    Your opinions are not something I find in scripture.

    ME: I respect your opinion!

    THE FACT THAT YOU DON’T FIND THEM IN SCRIPTURE, IT DOESN’T MEAN THAT

    THEY ARE NOT THERE NO?

    WOULD YOU PLEASE PICK ONE VERSE, JUST ONE VERSE OF WHAT YOU CALL

    MY OPINION??? 

    THEN LET THE HOLY SPIRIT HEARS AND AS HE HEARS HE SPEAKS!!!

    YOU DID READ AND FIND THAT IN SCRIPTURE NO???

    YOU ALSO BELIEVE THIS, DO YOU???

    AFTER ALL, TRUTH MUST BE REVEALED!!!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

    #868820
    Lightenup
    Participant

    PC,

    You said:

    I think we can all agree on that. Where you differ is that you think it is okay to call the Son of the Most High as the Most High or the Son of YHWH as YHWH.

    First of all, I don’t call the Son “the Most High Father” but I do believe that the Son is the “Most High Son.” Second of all, since I believe that YHVH is the unity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, context will be important to discern which one is being referred to by the name YHVH.

    You don’t seem to get that the Father calls the Son YHVH, so I’m in agreement with the Father and you are not.

    I would never say that the Son is “YHVH, the Father.” The Son is identified as YHVH by the Father, by Abraham, by the majority of Christians, so there’s that. Likewise, the Father is not YHVH the Son, but the Father is YHVH also as is the Son.

    LU

    #868821
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Carmel,

    Just as a small example, you said that which is here quoted, and you use a lot of terms that I don’t see in the scripture:

    FIRST AND FOREMOST GOD, BEFORE HE CREATED ANYTHING, GENERALLY SPEAKING, IN ORDER TO COMMUNICATEESTABLISHED HIS SONHIS GENUINE ETERNAL ABODE, PRECISELY AS

    “THE WORD”

    Most of that doesn’t make any sense to me, sorry. I don’t know where in the Bible, you are getting those terms.

    God didn’t “establish” His Son, He begat His Son before He created anything.

    Who is his genuine eternal abode, I have no idea where you get that.

    In answer to you question, the Holy Spirit does guide us towards truth, the Spirit will bring understanding to the words that Jesus has spoken. What the Spirit discloses to us will be found in scripture in regards to correct doctrine. Deceiving spirits also disclose info to guide us in believing lies. Test the spirit to see if it is from God.

    LU

    #868822
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @Proclaimer

    Are you neglecting to address this post on purpose? I will repeat it here:

    PC,

    You are correct, Abraham is not talking to the Father. He is talking to YHVH however. Therefore, the person who Abraham is addressing as YHVH, is not the Father but someone other than the Father. YHVH is echad which can mean that YHVH is a unity of more than one person. Hebrews 1 has the Father telling us who that other person is that is referred to as YHVH…it is the only begotten Son who the Father addressed as

    O Lord,

    You laid the foundations of the earth,

    and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

    11They will perish, but You remain;

    they will all wear out like a garment.

    12You will roll them up like a robe;

    like a garment they will be changed;

    but You remain the same,

    and Your years will never end.”

    This OT passage gives further witness to that here:

    Compare with Psalm 102

    24I say, “O my God, do not take me away in the midst of my days,
    Your years are throughout all generations.

    25“Of old You founded the earth,
    And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

    26“Even they will perish, but You endure;
                And all of them will wear out like a garment;
    Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed.

    27“But You are the same,
    And Your years will not come to an end.

    PC, who is the Father identifying as the YHVH who founded the earth and the heavens are the work of His hands?

    LU

    #868823
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @Proclaimer

    You have mentioned this over and over so, I am going to attempt to address it.

    You said:

    Isaac is the son of Abraham, and yes both have the same nature, but Isaac is not Abraham. Different identities.

    Yes, I realize this.

    YHVH, the Son is the son of YHVH, the Father. They both have the same nature and they have different identities…one is the Father and one is the Son.

    This is not hard.

    #868824
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer. ….Jesus said 80 times he was a son of man,  I am pretty sure he had human nature exactly as we have also. He also had the Spirit od God in him giving him the nature of God, but all who have the Spirit of God has that same nature in them also.

    So where is Jesus any different “IN NATURE” , them any of the SAINT’S of God?

    Jesus told us that GOD WAS OUR FATHER, over and over and over,   just like he was his Father to right?

    The truth is who here “actually”  truly believes what Jesus says? 

    That would be the real question here.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………….gene

     

     

    #868825
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel…….As I have said many times here, “it’s hard to catch a snake in a brier patch”.  I have never seen anyone who could change scriptures and make them say what they  apsolutely do not say , or even hint at,  better then you here.

    Tell us,   what church you belong to , you sound like you may be Catholic, or tied into their teachings somehow,   they even have written their own bibles,  that sounds a lot  like what you do, and  are comming from.

    Carmel,  not kidding,  you really have some unscriptural teachings,  isn’t it time you start quoting what our bible text actually does say, without adding all kind of yours or whoever  personal thoughts, that have nothing to do with what is actually written?

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

    #868827
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @Lightenup

    If Christ had always existed alongside the Father, then
    that would make them brothers or twins.
    Not a real Father and Son.

    I believe that Jesus was actually begotten by God in eternity past.
    Jesus is truly the only begotten Son of God. John 3:16

    And Jesus said that His Father is the only true God.
    “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” John 17:3

    Again Jesus is not the Most High Son. He is the Son of the Most High.
    Luke 1:32 says “He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High.”

    Yahweh is the Most High God. Jesus Christ is His Son.
    That’s what the Bible says. Amen.

    #868828
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    God bless you all!

    #868829
    Berean
    Participant

              AMEN !

    #868831
    Berean
    Participant

    GOD BLESS ALL

    #868832
    Lightenup
    Participant

    God bless you too Danny Dabbs!

     

    #868833
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Berean,

    Thanks for the beautiful, calming music…good words!

    #868834
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @Danny Dabbs

    You said:

    If Christ had always existed alongside the Father, then
    that would make them brothers or twins.
    Not a real Father and Son.

    I didn’t say that the Son always existed “alongside” the Father. I said that He existed within the Father until He was begotten before the ages.

    DD: I believe that Jesus was actually begotten by God in eternity past.
    Jesus is truly the only begotten Son of God. John 3:16

    I do as well 🙂

    DD: And Jesus said that His Father is the only true God.
    “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” John 17:3

    Yes He did, and it could then be said in that same context that Jesus is the one true Lord. YHVH is both.

    DD: Again Jesus is not the Most High Son.

    What son is a higher son than Jesus?

    He is the Son of the Most High.
    Luke 1:32 says “He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High.”

    Agreed, Jesus is the Son of the Most High Father.

    Yahweh is the Most High God. Jesus Christ is His Son.

    Absolutely, YHVH is the Most High God the Father as well as the Most High Lord, the Son-the Lord of lords.

    That’s what the Bible says. Amen.

     

     

     

     

    #868835
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @t8
    Hey Admin, how do I insert a screen shot? I used to be able to do it but it has been awhile.

    #868842
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hey Admin, how do I insert a screen shot? I used to be able to do it but it has been awhile.

    It stopped working, but I’ve fixed it.

    Click the last button on the toolbar on the first row while in Visual mode.

    You can click the Add Media button too, but only to add images that are already in the media library.

    #868847
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Berean,

    Thanks for the beautiful, calming music…good words!

    Hi LU

    Glad you enjoy … And yes, my wife and I really like heritage singers musics and songs, especially in their younger years…..

    #868871
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @Lightenup

    Ok, thank you for your responses.
    You made some very good points.
    I will think about it.
    Blessings.

     

    #868880
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Lightenup,

    YOU: Hi Carmel, Just as a small example, you said that which is here quoted, and you use a lot of terms that I don’t see in the scripture:

    Most of that doesn’t make any sense to me, sorry. I don’t know where in the Bible, you are getting those terms.

    YOU: God didn’t “establish” His Son,

    He begat His Son before He created anything.

    ME: YOU DIDN’T QUITE UNDERSTOOD WHAT I POSTED, I SAID:

     

    FIRST AND FOREMOST GOD,

    BEFORE HE CREATED ANYTHING,

    GENERALLY SPEAKING, 

    (1) IN ORDER TO COMMUNICATE, 

    (2) ESTABLISHED HIS SON, 

    (3) HIS GENUINE ETERNAL ABODE, 

    PRECISELY AS

    (4) “THE WORD”

    ME: IN THE ABOVE I NUMBERED, PRESUMABLY WHAT DOESN’T MAKE SENSE TO YOU SO I WILL BE IN A BETTER POSITION TO GIVE MY OPINION WHY I USED THOSE TERMS!

    NOW GOD, TO RESPECT YOUR TERM, BEGAT HIS SON 

    ON CREATION

    LET THERE BE LIGHT!

    BEFORE THAT INSTANT!

    THE SON WAS WITHIN THE FATHER’S BOSOM!

    AD INTRA! WITHIN GOD, NOT CUMMINCABLE!

    ONCE GOD PRONOUNCED HIS WORD,

    THE SON LEFT THE FATHER,

    YOUR TERM BEGAT!

    AND ESTABLISHED HIMSELF

    ENGRAFTED IN THE HEART

    OF THE ENDLESS SPIRITS EMANATED FROM GOD!

    AD EXTRA! COMMUNICABLE 

    THE KINGDOM OF THE SON TO BE!

    THE BEGINNING! GENESIS 1:1

     

    NOW:  WHERE IN THE BIBLE ONE CAN READ THAT 

    GOD BEGAT HIS SON

    BEFORE HE CREATED ANYTHING? READ:

    John1:1 1IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was

    in the beginning with God

     

    APART FROM OTHER BEGINNINGS MENTIONED IN SCRIPTURE,

    IN THE ABOVE  THERE ARE MENTIONED 

    TWO BEGINNINGS, THE WORD  “BEGAT” AND GOD’S SON ARE NOT

    MENTIONED!

    ONLY

    “THE WORD” IS MENTIONED!

    DID GOD, ACCORDING TO YOU, BEGAT THE WORD???

    IF “THE WORD” AS THE MAJORITY OF CHRISTIANS LIKE I DO, BELIEVE, IS THE SON,

    WHY IS HE  CALLED

    “THE WORD” IN THESE TWO PARTICULAR BEGINNINGS? ALSO

    IN WHICH ONE IN THE ABOVE BEGINNINGS  ALWAYS ACCORDING TO YOU, 

    GOD BEGAT HIS SON, OR

    DID HE BEGAT HIS SON TWICE, 

     

    MORE TO COME

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

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