John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 21,621 through 21,640 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #868764
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Carmel,

    You mentioned:

     LU, THE PROBLEM IS TO DISTINGUISH WHICH

    FOUNDATIONS OF THE WORLD, HEBREWS 1

    The foundation that I am referring to is the one mentioned in Hebrews 1 and Psalms 102. Found here:

    8But about the Son He says:

    “Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever,

    and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom.

    9You have loved righteousness

    and hated wickedness;

    therefore God, Your God, has anointed You

    above Your companions with the oil of joy.”g

    10And:

    “In the beginning, O LordYou laid the foundations of the earth,

    and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

    11They will perish, but You remain;

    they will all wear out like a garment.

    12You will roll them up like a robe;

    like a garmenth they will be changed;

    but You remain the same,

    and Your years will never end.”

    Compare with Psalm 102

     24I say, “O my God, do not take me away in the midst of my days,
    Your years are throughout all generations.

    25“Of old You founded the earth,
    And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

    26“Even they will perish, but You endure;
                And all of them will wear out like a garment;
    Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed.

    27“But You are the same,
    And Your years will not come to an end.

    #868765
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Danny Dabbs,

    Our recent conversation in part:

     LU: So, if I understand you correctly, the one that is identified as Yahweh, who appeared to Abraham on earth, standing next to him, talking to him face to face in Genesis 18 is the Father of Jesus in your opinion. Correct?

    DD: No. I believe this was Jesus.
    Jesus bears the name of His Father.
    But Jesus is not Yahweh.

    So basically you said that the one identified as Yahweh by Abraham in Genesis 18 is Jesus, but Jesus is not Yahweh. Do you see a problem here??

    If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, is called a duck…it’s not a duck?????

    I think your definition of “YHVH” needs to be challenged.

    I don’t believe YHVH is a name that can be given to another. Now, the name “Jesus” was the name that the Father gave the son as the Messiah, but the name YHVH belongs to whoever eternally exists, past and future.

    I believe that the Son of God eternally existed in some manner as well as the Father and both would bear the name reflecting that eternal existence, i.e. YHVH. They are equally eternally existent, equally bear the name YHVH, united in perfection, power, and purpose, essence,  etc. and distinct in relationship as father to son which is reflected in a perfect, loving authority over the other, as would be expected.

    LU

     

     

    #868774
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @Lightenup

    Luke 1:32 says “He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High.”
    Who is the Most High, and who is His Son?

     

    #868775
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Danny Dabbs,

    Jesus is the son of the Most High God who Jesus calls “Father.” They are ONE…as the Most High Unity.

    Do you agree? Or do you think there is a higher unity we should believe in for salvation?? Or do you believe the Father and Son are, or were, in dis-unity at some point?

     

    #868781
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi, LU,

    YOU: The foundation that I am referring to is the one mentioned in Hebrews 1 and Psalms 102. Found here:

    ME:  READ WHAT I ASKED AGAIN, LU:

    THE PROBLEM IS TO DISTINGUISH

    WHICH FOUNDATIONS OF THE WORLD, HEBREWS 1 IS REFERRING TO!!!

    NOT WHCH YOU ARE REFERRING TO.

    I KNOW THAT YOU ARE REFERRING TO 

    HEBREWS 1, and TO PSALM 102.

    AS I EXPLAINED THERE ARE THREE FOUNDATIONS OF THE WORLD!

    NOT ONE! 

    NOW LET’S READ FROM TWO VERSES UP 

    HEBREWS 1:8 But to the Son: Thy throne, O God, (A CLEAR REFERENCE TO THE SON) is

    for ever and ever:

    a sceptre of JUSTICE is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    9Thou hast loved JUSTICE, and hated INIQUITY:

    therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of

    GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR FELLOWS.

     

    IN THE ABOVE GOD THE FATHER IS MORE THAN GLAD TO HIS SON!! WHY???

    GOD THE FATHER ALSO DECLARES THAT

    JESUS LOVED JUSTICE AND HATED INIQUITY!

    THEN HE CONCLUDED AND DECLARED THAT GOD ANOINTED JESUS WITH

    THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE HIS FELLOWS!

    WHAT FOR THIS OIL OF GLADNESS???

    WHO ARE JESUS’ FELLOWS???

    FIRST AND FOREMOST GOD, BEFORE HE CREATED ANYTHING, GENERALLY SPEAKING, IN ORDER TO COMMUNICATE, ESTABLISHED HIS SON, HIS GENUINE ETERNAL ABODE, PRECISELY AS

    “THE WORD”

    ETERNAL LIFE HIDDEN IN THEIR HEART!

    A SPIRIT, AND THROUGH HIM, HE CREATED ALL THE SPIRITUAL BEINGS!

    MENTIONED IN HEBREWS 1:10 AS

    THE HEAVENS!

    NOW THE FIRST EVER CREATURE GOD CREATED WAS 

    LUCIFER! THE LIGHT BRINGER,

    THE FIRST MORNING STAR! PRECISELY

    THE BEGINNING!  

    THUS “THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, YET TO BE, WAS WITHIN

    THE HEART OF LUCIFER AND THROUGH HIM 

    GOD, IN/BY “THE WORD” CREATED ALL THE HEAVENLY REALMS.

    THE FIRST PLANET EVER CREATED WAS

    THIS WORLD, PRECISELY LUCIFER’S WORK BY HIS ANGELS.

    NOW “THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN TO BE, WAS IN THE CORE OF IT AS

    THE SOURCE, ETERNAL LIFE! 

    LUCIFER REJECTED GOD AT ONE STAGE,

    HE BELIEVED IN HIS AUTONOMY, DESPITE

    ALL THE EFFORTS  DONE BY JESUS,

    Referred by Jesus in John 8 hereunder!

    REGARDING GOD’S SOVEREIGNTY AND TRUTH, FROM WITHIN THE HEART OF LUCIFER and his rebellious angels.

    John8:24Therefore I said to you, that you shall die in your sins.

    For if you believe not that I am HE,

    (WHO SPOKE FOR NO USE FROM WITHIN THEIR HEART)

    you shall die in your SIN. (REBEL)

    25They said therefore to him:

    Who art thou?

    Jesus said to them:

    The beginning,

    who also speak unto you. 

     

    OBVIOUS ALSO FOR NO USE DESPITE A HUMAN BEING LIKE THEM, CONCERNING

    THE TRUTH!

    26Many things I have to speak and to judge of you.

    But he that sent me, is true: and the things I have heard of him, these same

    I speak in the world.

    NOW LET’S READ AGAIN FROM 10 FROM THIS PERSPECTIVE! 

    10And: Thou in the beginning, O Lord,

    WHO IS THE BEGINNING HERE??? OBVIOUS

    LUCIFER, AND JESUS WAS IN HIM AS A SPIRIT, “THE WORD” ETERNAL LIFE! THE TRUTH! THUS IT SHOULD READ

    AND: YOU IN LUCIFER, O LORD,

    didst found the earth:

    AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL!!!

    IT SIMPLY SAYS THAT

    GOD, IN “THE WORD”, HIS SON JESUS, HIS GENUINE ABODE, BOTH HIDDEN 

    IN LUCIFER,

    THE BEGINNING, 

    DID FOUND THE EARTH!

    and the works of thy hands (PLURAL, GOD DOES NOT USE HIS HANDS TO DO HIS WORK, BUT IT SIMPLY IS A REFERENCE TO 

    ONE GOD IN

    THE FATHER AND THE SON,

    IN THE PROCESS OF CREATION) are the heavens.

    THUS LIKEWISE IT SAYS THAT

    THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS, 

    GOD IN “THE WORD” HIS SON, JESUS,

    ARE THE HEAVENLY REALMS!

    NOW LET’S GO BACK AGAIN TO

    HEBREWS 1:8 But to the Son: Thy throne, O God, (A CLEAR REFERENCE TO THE SON) is

    for ever and ever:

    a sceptre of

    JUSTICE

    is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9Thou hast loved

    JUSTICE, and hated INIQUITY:

    therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of

    GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR FELLOWS.

    NOW WE HAVE A CLEAR PICTURE WHY GOD THE FATHER

    IS MORE THAN GLAD AND CALLED THE THRONE OF HIS SON

    A SCEPTER OF JUSTICE, JESUS LOVED JUSTICE, AND HATED INIQUITY!

    ALSO, JESUS’ FELLOWS WERE PRECISELY

    LUCIFER AND HIS REBELLIOUS ANGELS/ SPIRITS

    NOW LETS’ CONTINUE READING:

    11They shall perish, 

    WHO? OBVIOUS THE REBELLIOUS SPIRITS, 

    but thou shalt continue: and they shall all grow old as a garment.

    HERE IT SIMPLY SAYS THAT JESUS, THE SON OF GOD REMAINS FAITHFUL, TO GOD THE FATHER, DESPITE FIRST AS A SPIRIT WITHIN THE HEART OF GOD’S ENEMIES AS THEIR 

    LIFE SOURCE, AND ALSO AS A HUMAN ON EARTH, WHO NEVER SINNED. SIMPLY FOR THE SAKE OF

    TRUTH AND JUSTICE!

    12And as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:

    IN THE ABOVE IT CLEARLY SAYS THAT AT THE VERY END,

    ALL WILL BE CHANGED AND RETURN TO GOD!

    PRECISELY

    BY JESUS, IN JESUS, AND FOR JESUS!

    WHEN THE FATHER WOULD BE ALL IN ALL AND HIS SON AS A SPIRIT

    RETURNS IN THE FATHER’S BOSOM! ATTENTION PLEASE:

    PHYSICALLY THOUGH, 

    GOD THE FATHER AND THE ENTIRE KINGDOM OF GOD, OR MORE PRECISE

    THE KINGDOM OF THE SON WOULD ONLY HAVE 

    ONE KIND OF BODY!!!

    THE BODY OF

    JESUS CHRIST!

    1 John3:2 Dearly beloved, we are now

    the sons of God;

    and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know, that, when he shall appear,

    we shall be like to him:

    because we shall see him as he is.

    EVEN BEFORE THE WORLD WAS!!!

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

    #868782
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Sorry Carmel,

    Your opinions are not something I find in scripture.

     

    #868783
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……the word Lucifer means rising star,  we still use that term today,  the king of Babylon was a rising Star of his day. It is a metaphor of our rising star,  “the Sun” .

    Lucifer does not mean,  or is Satan,  that just another false teaching.   If you look  closely at that scripture, you will see that……Isa 14:4 ……says it was a “proverb”, against the king of Babylon.  A proverb is a “fictions illustration ” About something usually of a “metaphorical” nature; hence a simile. 

    No where does it say in “any” scripture, Satan’s name is “Lucifer” .  if it is there please “post it”. 

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene

    #868788
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I do not see anywhere Satan being called Lucifer before his fall.

    That is true.

    But scripture does speak about leaders and the ruling power behind them.

    The Prince

    28 The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,

    2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord God; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

    3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:

    4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:

    #868789
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The King

    12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

    13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

    14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

    15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

    #868790
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    This is about the leader of Babylon. But he is likened to this other, the annointed cherub.

    Scripture is inspired by God. It has a depth of revelation unlike any book written from the spirit of man.

    #868791
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @Lightenup

    Jesus is not the Most High. He is the Son of the Most High.

    Let’s read it again. Luke 1:32 says “He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High.”

    #868794
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @t8

    Thanks for your responses. It helped me a lot.
    Sorry for being rude to you sometimes.

    #868795
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Danny Dabbs,

    You said: Jesus is not the Most High. He is the Son of the Most High.

    Read my last post to you. Isn’t that what I said?

    I believe that there is a “head” within the Unity of YHVH and a Son. That “head” is the Father of the Son. Within the most high unity, there is a Father and a Son. The Son is called the Son of the Most High.

    I do believe that it can be said that the Father is a father to the Most High Son.

    as well as this:

    The Son is a son to the Most High Father.

    Two persons can’t be any higher than they can, and between them both, one is the head of the other. This is not hard.

    Now answer my questions:

    Are the most high Father and the most high Son, ONE, not one in the same person but ONE in unity? If so, was there ever a time when they were not in unity?

    Blessings, LU

    #868797
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Bump for PC

    PC,

    You are correct, Abraham is not talking to the Father. He is talking to YHVH however. Therefore, the person who Abraham is addressing as YHVH, is not the Father but someone other than the Father. YHVH is echad which can mean that YHVH is a unity of more than one person. Hebrews 1 has the Father telling us who that other person is that is referred to as YHVH…it is the only begotten Son who the Father addressed as

    O Lord,

    You laid the foundations of the earth,

    and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

    11They will perish, but You remain;

    they will all wear out like a garment.

    12You will roll them up like a robe;

    like a garment they will be changed;

    but You remain the same,

    and Your years will never end.”

    This OT passage gives further witness to that here:

    Compare with Psalm 102

    24I say, “O my God, do not take me away in the midst of my days,
    Your years are throughout all generations.

    25“Of old You founded the earth,
    And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

    26“Even they will perish, but You endure;
                And all of them will wear out like a garment;
    Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed.

    27“But You are the same,
    And Your years will not come to an end.

    PC, who is the Father identifying as the YHVH who founded the earth and the heavens are the work of His hands?

    LU

    #868806
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer. …..my point was t h e word LUCIFER, does not mean SATAN. IT MEANS “RISING STAR” , a medaphor, used which we still use today. 

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

    #868808
    Berean
    Participant

    LUCIFER IS NO LONGER LUCIFER (CARRIER OF LIGHT) HE HAS BECOME SATAN: THE ONE WHO DAMS LIGHT WITH A FAKE LIGHT ….
    He disguises himself as an angel of light.
    THIS WORD “LUCIFER” SHOULD ONLY BE USED TO REMEMBER WHAT HE WAS IN OLD TIMES: A TRUE ANGEL OF LIGHT AND BEARER OF LIGHT, WHICH HE IS NO LONGER.

    #868810
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @Lightenup

    You said: I do believe that it can be said that the Father is a father to the Most High Son.

    “the Most High Son“??
    Sorry, I don’t find this phrase in my Bible.

    Jesus is not the Most High Son. He is the Son of the Most High. Luke 1:32

    Now to your question:
    Jesus was begotten by his Father before all worlds.
    At that point He was/is always in unity with His Father.

     

     

    #868811
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Danny Dabbs,

    Please tell me of a son that is higher than Jesus, the firstborn over all creation. If you cannot, then it would be an obvious truth that Jesus is the Most High Son. Think!

    Also, if anyone is begotten, they must have existed in order to be begotten. The whole idea of begetting something/someone is to bring it/them forth from point a to point b. In other words, the Son was brought forth from within the Father to being alongside the Father before the ages.

    Another example, when Jesus became the first begotten from the dead, He certainly existed beforehand, did He not??

    A begetting is not synonymous to a “creating” or “coming into existence that which was not in existence in some manner before the act of begetting “

    Can you tell me of any living being that was born alive that did not exist alive the moment before they were born? Even human sons and daughters have existed within the parent for months before they were begotten/born. Or are you of the persuasion that nothing living is within the womb while a woman has yet to have begotten them/given birth to them? If nothing was in the womb, existing alive, how so is something begotten alive from that womb?

    Now, Danny, if you now realize, by reason, that the Son must have been alive and have existed before He was begotten, before the ages, why would you think that He wasn’t in unity with His Father until He was begotten from His Father?

    LU

    #868813
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Proclaimer. …..my point was t h e word LUCIFER, does not mean SATAN.

    Why tell us that? Who is claiming that? No one right?

    #868814
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Please tell me of a son that is higher than Jesus, the firstborn over all creation. If you cannot, then it would be an obvious truth that Jesus is the Most High Son. Think!

    I think we can all agree on that. Where you differ is that you think it is okay to call the Son of the Most High as the Most High or the Son of YHWH as YHWH.

    Isaac is the son of Abraham, and yes both have the same nature, but Isaac is not Abraham. Different identities.

    As I have mentioned numerous times, if people understood the difference between identity and nature, then all these theories would go away.

    Maybe God has blinded people in this way because their hearts are wayward. Something is certainly going on with that. It is very weird that there is a Trinity, Binity, or Quadrinity doctrines. But then again, it does explain how important it is that there is one God the Father and that Satan would obviously want to deceive people on that truth.

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