John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 21,601 through 21,620 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #868570
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @Lightenup

    Ok, first we need to establish the identity of Yahweh.
    Who is Yahweh?

    Psalm 2:2
    The kings of the earth take a stand, and the rulers take counsel together, against Yahweh, and against his Anointed

    This Psalm is quoted by the first Christians in Acts 4.

    24 When they heard it, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord and said, “O Lord, you are God, who made
    the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all that is in them; 25 who by the mouth of your servant David, said,
    ‘Why do the nations rage, and the peoples plot a vain thing?
    26 The kings of the earth take a stand, and the rulers take council together, against the Lord, and against his Christ’
    27 “For truly, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were
    gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, 28 to do whatever your
    hand and your council foreordained to happen. 29 Now, Lord, look at their threats, and grant
    to your servants to speak your word with all boldness, 30 while you stretch out your hand to
    heal; and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of your holy Servant Jesus.”

    What do we learn from Psalm 2 and Acts 4?
    Yahweh is the God of the Old and New Testament!
    Yahweh created the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all that is in them!
    Yahweh is the Father of Jesus Christ!
    There we have the biblical identity of Yahweh!

    Do you agree?

    #868623
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Danny Dabbs,

    You asked:

    What do we learn from Psalm 2 and Acts 4?
    Yahweh is the God of the Old and New Testament!
    Yahweh created the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all that is in them!
    Yahweh is the Father of Jesus Christ!
    There we have the biblical identity of Yahweh!

    Do you agree?

    I agree in part. I think that YHVH is fuller than the Father only. As with any scripture, the context will be very important to consider. I see a unity within the fullness of YHVH, the great and awesome God, to include the Father, the Son and their Spirit.

    Do you agree that the Son is identified as God, and YHVH in Hebrews 1:8-12 by his Father:

    8But about the Son He says:

    “Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever,

    and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom.

    9You have loved righteousness

    and hated wickedness;

    therefore God, Your God, has anointed You

    above Your companions with the oil of joy.”g

    10And:

    “In the beginning, O Lord, You laid the foundations of the earth,

    and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

    11They will perish, but You remain;

    they will all wear out like a garment.

    12You will roll them up like a robe;

    like a garmenth they will be changed;

    but You remain the same,

    and Your years will never end.”

    Compare with Psalm 102

     24I say, “O my God, do not take me away in the midst of my days,
    Your years are throughout all generations.

    25“Of old You founded the earth,
    And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

    26“Even they will perish, but You endure;
                And all of them will wear out like a garment;
    Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed.

    27“But You are the same,
    And Your years will not come to an end.

    #868647
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @Lightenup

    Do you agree that the Son is identified as God, and YHVH in Hebrews 1:8-12 by his Father

    I agree in part.
    As you said “As with any scripture, the context will be very important to consider.”
    Jesus bears the NAME of His Father Yahweh God.
    Jesus is Yahweh God by nature, not identity.
    Yahweh is the Father of Jesus (Psalm 2; Acts 4), hence Yahweh is not Jesus.
    Luke 1:32 says “He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High.”
    There we have the two identities: The Most High and His Son.
    Yahweh the God of the Bible and His Son Jesus Christ! Amen!

    #868650
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Amen Danny.

    #868656
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    I’m glad we agree on this.

    #868473
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Danny Dabbs,

    Is Yahweh only the Father of Jesus or is he also the Son, the Lord of lords? Is YHVH a unity or a single person?

    Also, who is standing next to Abraham and speaking to him and is being addressed as Yahweh in Genesis 18 and 19:24?

    Genesis 18:

    1Yahweh appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day. 2He lifted up his eyes and looked, and saw that three men stood opposite him. When he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself to the earth, 3and said, “My lord, if now I have found favor in your sight, please don’t go away from your servant. 4Now let a little water be fetched, wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree. 5I will get a morsel of bread so you can refresh your heart. After that you may go your way, now that you have come to your servant.” They said, “Very well, do as you have said.” 6Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah, and said, “Quickly prepare three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes.” 7Abraham ran to the herd, and fetched a tender and good calf, and gave it to the servant. He hurried to dress it. 8He took butter, milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them. He stood by them under the tree, and they ate.

    Sarah Laughs at the Promise

    9They asked him, “Where is Sarah, your wife?” He said, “See, in the tent.” 10He said, “I will certainly return to you when the season comes round. Behold, Sarah your wife will have a son.” Sarah heard in the tent door, which was behind him. 11Now Abraham and Sarah were old, well advanced in age. Sarah had passed the age of childbearing. 12Sarah laughed within herself, saying, “After I have grown old will I have pleasure, my lord being old also?” 13Yahweh said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh, saying, ‘Will I really bear a child, yet I am old?’ 14Is anything too hard for Yahweh? At the set time I will return to you, when the season comes round, and Sarah will have a son.” 15Then Sarah denied, saying, “I didn’t laugh,” for she was afraid. He said, “No, but you did laugh.”

    Abraham Begs for Sodom

    16The men rose up from there, and looked toward Sodom. Abraham went with them to see them on their way. 17Yahweh said, “Will I hide from Abraham what I do, 18since Abraham has surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth will be blessed in him? 19For I have known him, to the end that he may command his children and his household after him, that they may keep the way of Yahweh, to do righteousness and justice; to the end that Yahweh may bring on Abraham that which he has spoken of him.” 20Yahweh said, “Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous, 21I will go down now, and see whether their deeds are as bad as the reports which have come to me. If not, I will know.”

    22The men turned from there, and went toward Sodom, but Abraham stood yet before Yahweh23Abraham drew near, and said, “Will you consume the righteous with the wicked? 24What if there are fifty righteous within the city? Will you consume and not spare the place for the fifty righteous who are in it? 25Be it far from you to do things like that, to kill the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be like the wicked. May that be far from you. Shouldn’t the Judge of all the earth do right?” 26Yahweh said, “If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sake.” 27Abraham answered, “See now, I have taken it on myself to speak to the Lord, who am but dust and ashes. 28What if there will lack five of the fifty righteous? Will you destroy all the city for lack of five?” He said, “I will not destroy it, if I find forty-five there.” 29He spoke to him yet again, and said, “What if there are forty found there?” He said, “I will not do it for the forty’s sake.” 30He said, “Oh don’t let the Lord be angry, and I will speak. What if there are thirty found there?” He said, “I will not do it, if I find thirty there.” 31He said, “See now, I have taken it on myself to speak to the Lord. What if there are twenty found there?” He said, “I will not destroy it for the twenty’s sake.” 32He said, “Oh don’t let the Lord be angry, and I will speak just once more. What if ten are found there?” He said, “I will not destroy it for the ten’s sake.” 33Yahweh went his way, as soon as he had finished communing with Abraham, and Abraham returned to his place.

    Genesis 19:24

    24Then Yahweh rained on Sodom and on Gomorrah sulfur and fire from Yahweh out of the sky.

    LU

    #868701
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    YHWH is the Father.

    #868702
    Lightenup
    Participant

    PC,

    Who does the Father identify as

    laying the foundations of the earth in this passage:

    In Hebrews 1

    8But about the Son He says:

    “Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever,

    and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom.

    9You have loved righteousness

    and hated wickedness;

    therefore God, Your God, has anointed You

    above Your companions with the oil of joy.”

    10And:

    “In the beginning, O Lord, You laid the foundations of the earth,

    and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

    11They will perish, but You remain;

    they will all wear out like a garment.

    12You will roll them up like a robe;

    like a garment they will be changed;

    but You remain the same,

    and Your years will never end.”

    LU

    #868726
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    To all……why not just believe Jesus and what he said? …“this is eternal life, that they might know you “THE “ONLY” TRUE ” GOD,” …… WHAT PART OF THOSE WORDS OF JESUS IS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?  Now if another text implys something different , who are you going to truly believe Jesus” direct words or a possibly miss understood  text?  When also have many other text that show that there is “ONLY” one true GOD, EVEN God’s own words says that,  so Jesus says it, God The Father says it and many other scripture says it, like this,   “but unto us, there is “ONE” GOD and one mediator between God and men the “MAN” Jesus Christ.” 

    So cast out the “many”  and chose the misunderstood,  I take the “MANY” , that say there is “ONLY” ONE “TRUE”GOD. WHO CREATED EVERYTHING G IN EXISTENCE “ALONE” and by “HIMSELF”. 

    Peace and love to you all and yours. ………..gene

     

    #868729
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    Hi Lightenup,

    I thought I made myself clear.
    Yahweh is the Father of Jesus Christ. (Psalm 2; Acts 4)
    I presume you are confusing the identities?
    Luke 1:32 says “He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High.”
    Who is the Most High, and who is His Son?

    #868737
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Danny Dabbs,

    So, if I understand you correctly, the one that is identified as Yahweh, who appeared to Abraham on earth, standing next to him, talking to him face to face in Genesis 18 is the Father of Jesus in your opinion. Correct?

    LU

    #868742
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    LU.

    This is easily cleared up. God is invisible. No man has seen him. Yes, some appear to have seen God. So what is going on?

    The answer is that they saw the angel or angel of the LORD.

    And we know that the Son is the image of the invisible God. From this I do not need to explain the answer for you do I? But suffice to say, we can see God through his creation but primarily through the begotten Son who is the exact representation of God’s being.

    #868744
    Lightenup
    Participant

    PC.

    Except you don’t see that explanation in the context. It is an opinion that is not backed up in the context. According to the context, the person that Abraham is identifying is not an angel but instead Abraham is identifying YHVH,  the “Judge of all the earth.” There is no angel that is “judge of all the earth” PC.

    Don’t forget this question posed to you:

    PC,

    Who does the Father identify as

    laying the foundations of the earth in this passage:

    In Hebrews 1

    8But about the Son He says:

    “Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever,

    and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom.

    9You have loved righteousness

    and hated wickedness;

    therefore God, Your God, has anointed You

    above Your companions with the oil of joy.”

    10And:

    “In the beginning, O Lord, You laid the foundations of the earth,

    and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

    11They will perish, but You remain;

    they will all wear out like a garment.

    12You will roll them up like a robe;

    like a garment they will be changed;

    but You remain the same,

    and Your years will never end.”

    LU

     

    #868745
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    LU, the Angel of the Lord is such a being.

    Has anyone literally seen God or has the invisible God appeared through his messengers?

    The Bible says YHWH “appeared”. So how does an invisible God who is an eternal Spirit appear to a person? The easy answer is through his messenger. And who is primary messenger? A person described as being the image of the invisible God. A person who is said to have the fullness of the deity in bodily form. Yes we know who that person is, that is the Son of God. In the Old Testament however, that primary being is the Messenger of God or Angel of the LORD. Whether the Son is that being is another debate, but suffice to say, when Moses saw God face to face, it was The Angel that he saw. It will be no different to any other person in scripture.

    “The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend. “

    So who did Moses literally see while taking to God face to face? Moses talked face to face with God via God’s Messenger.

    30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
    31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord’s voice:
    32 ‘I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.’Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
    33 “Then the Lord said to him, ‘Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
    34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.’
    35 “This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, ‘Who made you ruler and judge?’ He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
    36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
    37 “This is that Moses who told the Israelites, ‘God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.’
    38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.

    36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
    37 “This is that Moses who told the Israelites, ‘God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.’
    38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
    39 “But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.

    No one has ever seen God

    which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
    who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

    No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God remains in us

    But we can see the invisible God through his visible representative

    He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

    In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
    but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
    The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, 

    #868747
    Lightenup
    Participant

    PC,

    You are correct, Abraham is not talking to the Father. He is talking to YHVH however. Therefore, the person who Abraham is addressing as YHVH, is not the Father but someone other than the Father. YHVH is echad which can mean that YHVH is a unity of more than one person. Hebrews 1 has the Father telling us who that other person is that is referred to as YHVH…it is the only begotten Son who the Father addressed as

    O Lord,

    You laid the foundations of the earth,

    and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

    11They will perish, but You remain;

    they will all wear out like a garment.

    12You will roll them up like a robe;

    like a garment they will be changed;

    but You remain the same,

    and Your years will never end.”

    This OT passage gives further witness to that here:

    Compare with Psalm 102

     24I say, “O my God, do not take me away in the midst of my days,
    Your years are throughout all generations.

    25“Of old You founded the earth,
    And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

    26“Even they will perish, but You endure;
                And all of them will wear out like a garment;
    Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed.

    27“But You are the same,
    And Your years will not come to an end.

    LU

    #868748
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi lightenup,

    YOU:PC,

    Who does the Father identify as

    laying the foundations of the earth in this passage:

    In Hebrews 1

     

    ME: LU, THE PROBLEM IS TO DISTINGUISH WHICH

    FOUNDATIONS OF THE WORLD, HEBREWS 1

    IS REFERRING TO!!!

    SIMPLY AS GENESIS 1:1 WAS THE FIRST EVER FOUNDATIONS OF THE WORLD!

    BOTH  SPIRIT AND PHYSICAL  BUT ENDED IN CORRUPTION!

    GENESIS 1: 2 WAS THE SECOND FOUNDATIONS OF THE WORLD,

    VERY GOOD

    NOT PERFECT!

    PERSONIFIED IN

    ADAM THE LIVING SOUL! Still under the influence of the rebel in heaven of which he was in actual fact 

    LUCIFER’S ORIGINAL SPIRIT! Thus, which also

    ENDED IN CORRUPTION, AND

    DEATH

    WAS INTRODUCED ON THIS PLANET EARTH!

    WHILE

    ON JESUS’ DEATH ON THE CROSS WAS THE THIRD 

    ETERNAL FOUNDATIONS OF THE WORLD!

    THE INTRODUCTION AND FULFILLMENT OF 

    ETERNAL LIFE  of

    THE NEW CREATION

    RECREATED ANEW

    BOTH SPIRIT IN THE HOLY GHOST AND

    FLESH IN “THE WORD”

    ONE SPIRITFLESH SUBSTANCE

    ALL EMBODIED AND GLORIFIED IN

    JESUS CHRIST

    GODMAN ON EARTH

    TILL PENTECOST, 

    GOD’S KINGDOM CAME, GOD’S WILL WAS ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN!

    MENTIONED SPECIFICALLY BUT CAMOUFLAGED BY JESUS IN

    Luke 17: 20-37

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #868753
    Danny Dabbs
    Participant

    @Lightenup

    So, if I understand you correctly, the one that is identified as Yahweh, who appeared to Abraham on earth, standing next to him, talking to him face to face in Genesis 18 is the Father of Jesus in your opinion. Correct?

    No. I believe this was Jesus.
    Jesus bears the name of His Father.
    But Jesus is not Yahweh. He is the Son of Yahweh.
    Jesus inherited His Father’s name and divine nature in the same way a human son inherits the human nature and name of his parents.

    Don’t forget my question:
    Luke 1:32 says “He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High.”
    Who is the Most High, and who is His Son?

    #868755
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Amen Danny. There are many doctrines that takeaway from the Most High and the Son of the Most High.

    #868757
    carmel
    Participant

    HI Gene,

    YOU: To all……why not just believe Jesus and what he said? …

    “this is eternal life,

    ME: THE ABOVE Gene, ON ITS OWN, SHOULD GIVE  MORE THAN ENOUGH

    LIGHT!!!

    ANSWER: WHY DID JESUS EMPHATICALLY PROCLAIMED PRECISELY 

    HIMSELF 

    AS THE ETERNAL LIFE,

    BEFORE HE PRONOUNCED AND DECLARED 

    that they might know you “THE “ONLY” TRUE ” GOD,” …… 

    ANSWER: Gene, WHY DID JESUS AFTER HE PRONOUNCED THE ABOVE STATEMENT, AGAIN HE ALSO

    EMPHATICALLY PRONOUNCED HIS NAME AND SAID: 

     

    AND JESUS CHRIST, WHOM YOU HAVE SENT!

    A STATEMENT THAT FOR A REASON ONLY YOU KNOW, BUT FOR SURE YOU WERE UNCOMFORTABLE TO DO SO AND PRODUCE???

    Gene, WHAT DOES THE WHOLE VERSE TELL YOU IN ACTUAL FACT???

    DOES IT TELL YOU THAT, JESUS’ OWN WORDS

    ” THE ONLY TRUE GOD” 

    IS A REFERENCE TO THE FATHER ONLY, SINCE HE NEVER MENTIONED THE FATHER, IN THIS PARTICULAR STATEMENT, BUT ONLY THE TITLE

    GOD???

    WHICH IS A MYSTERY UP TO THIS DAY

    WHILE FROM THE OTHER HAND, HE MADE SURE TO INCLUDE HIMSELF BOTH IN

    THE BEGINNING

    OF HIS STATEMENT AND ALSO AT THE 

    THE END!!!

    IF HE WANTED TO BE SURE SO,

    HE WOULD HAVE GIVEN PRIORITY TO THE FATHER, NO??? AND COMMENCED HIS STATEMENT LIKE THIS:

    FATHER: that they might know you “THE “ONLY” TRUE ” GOD,” 

    Gene JESUS, THE TRUTH, DIDN’T DO SO! OK???

    YOU: WHAT PART OF THOSE WORDS OF JESUS IS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND? 

    ME: THERE YOU ARE Gene!!!

    WHAT I ASKED YOU IS THE PART OF THOSE WORDS OF JESUS WHICH IS

    SO HARD FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND!!!

    THE FACT THAT YOU LEFT OUT PART OF IT!

    YOU, WITH YOUR INSISTANCE

    SEPARATED  

    THE FATHER FROM THE SON!!!

    SOMETHING WHICH JESUS THROUGHOUT HIS PREACHING CONFIRMED THAT

    THERE’S NO DIFFERENCE!!! IN FACT 

    THEY ARE ONE!

    NOW READ JOHN 17

    1THESE things Jesus spoke, and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said:

    Father, the hour is come,

    glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee. 

    CAN YOU SEE Gene, ANY DIFFERENCE???

    BETWEEN THE FATHER AND THE SON???

    2As thou hast given him power

    over all flesh,

    that he may give

    eternal life

    to all whom thou hast given him. 

    3Now this is eternal life: That they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

     4I have glorified thee on the earth;

    ME: TELL US SOMETHING Gene

    HOW AND WHY

    JESUS GLORIFIED THE FATHER ON EARTH!!!

    I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 

    TELL US SOMETHING Gene, HOW and WHY

    THE FATHER GAVE  JESUS 

    THE WORK TO DO! NOTICE:

    JESUS DIDN’T SAY “YOUR WORK” WHICH WOULD HAVE GIVEN

    PREFERENCE

    TO THE FATHER!!!

    THUS JESUS IS EQUAL WITH THE FATHER IN GOD’S/JESUS’ TASK OF REDEMPTION!!! 

    5And now glorify thou me,

    O Father, with thyself,

    with the glory which I had,

    before the world was, with thee.

    CAN YOU SEE ANY DIFFERENCE Gene???

    John17:10 And all my things are thine, and

    thine are mine; and

    I am glorified in them. 

    CAN YOU SEE ANY DIFFERENCE Gene???

    John10:30 I and the Father are one.

    CAN YOU SEE ANY DIFFERENCE Gene???

    John14:11 LET not your heart be troubled.

    You believe in God, believe also in me.

    CAN YOU SEE ANY DIFFERENCE Gene???

    John14:6 Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

    No man cometh to the Father, but by me.

    CAN YOU SEE ANY DIFFERENCE Gene???

    John14:8 …..Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also.

    How sayest thou, Shew us the Father? 

    CAN YOU SEE ANY DIFFERENCE Gene???

    John16:15 All things whatsoever the Father hath, are mine.

    CAN YOU SEE ANY DIFFERENCE Gene???

    YOU: Now if another text implys something different , who are you going to truly believe Jesus” direct words or a possibly miss understood  text?  When also have many other text that show that there is

    “ONLY” one true GOD,

    ME: Gene, WHO, and WHAT IS GOD???

    EVEN God’s own words says that,  

    ME: WHO IS GOD’S OWN WORD???

    so Jesus says it, God The Father says it and many other scripture says it, like this, 

     “but unto us, there is “ONE” GOD and one mediator between God and men the “MAN” Jesus Christ.” 

    ME: Galatians 3:20 Now a mediator is not of one:

    but God is one.

    GODS’ MEDIATOR Gene,

    JESUS CHRIST, 

    IS ONE WITH GOD!

    So cast out the “many”  and chose the misunderstood,  I take the “MANY” , that say there

    is “ONLY” ONE “TRUE”GOD.

    ME: 1John5:20 And we know that

    the Son of God is come: and he hath given us understanding that

    we may know the true God,

    and may be in

    HIS TRUE SON.

    This is THE TRUE GOD and life eternal.

    Gene, THE FATHER COULD NEVER BE THE TRUE GOD ON EARTH 

    SINCE HE IS A SPIRIT INVISIBLE

    HE IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD IN

    JESUS CHRIST,

    WHOM HE HAS SENT!

    YOU: WHO CREATED EVERYTHING G IN EXISTENCE “ALONE” and by “HIMSELF”. 

    HEBREWS 1:8 But to the Son:

    Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever:

    a sceptre of justice is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    9Thou hast loved justice, and hated iniquity:

    therefore God, thy God,

    hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

    10And: Thou in the beginning, O Lord,

    didst found the earth:

    and the works of thy hands are the heavens.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #868760
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Carmel……so to you Jesus did not say to the person , “why call “ME”  good, there is only “ONE” that is Good , and that is God “.  and to you he did not say this also,  “the Father “God” is greater then I am, and none can take them out of “his” hand”. 

    And your Jesus did not say,  “ì “always” do what pleases the Father”. 

    Carmel making Jesus your God turns you into an “IDOLATER” , and no “idolater” is excepted  by God the Father. 

    Repent while you still can, worship God the Father as the “ONLY” TRUE “GOD”,  AS Jesus our lord did. We (true believers) , are call alongside Jesus to worship God the Father exactly as Jesus does,as the “ONLY” TRUE GOD,   in spirit and truth. Not to try to turn him , INTO A GOD. 

    YOUR teachings are corrupt and so are you,  because they are “your” teachings, not our lord Jesus Christ’s teachings.   Repent Carnel!

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene

     

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