John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 21,021 through 21,040 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
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  • #866715
    Berean
    Participant

     

     

    Jodi

    You

    You think that Jesus was once in heaven in the form of God, where he is himself, you say that he is God too, but that he came down from heaven not to do his own will? How does that make sense?

    Me

    Very good question Jodi

    My answer is that only the divine Son of God could offer Himself for the salvation of the world; only He, who is in the bosom of the Father in Heaven and is ONE WITH THE FATHER, could offer Himself for the salvation of the world.
    to make the Father known, to pay our debt to the Father. and reconcile ourselves to Him and reunite all things in Him.

    For I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him that sent me (John 6:38).

    No one has ever seen God; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, is he who made him known (John 1:18).

     

    In him we have redemption through his blood, the remission of sins, according to the riches of his grace,

    1:8 Which God hath poured out upon us abundantly by every kind of wisdom and understanding,

    1:9 Making known unto us the mystery of his will, according to the good pleasure which he had formed in himself,

    1:10 That, when the times shall be fulfilled, they may gather together all things in Christ, both in heaven and on earth (Ephesians 1).

    God bless

    #866716
    Jodi
    Participant

    oops I realized I said JESSE and not JESUS,

    “IF JESUS AND “THEY” ARE NOT OF THE WORLD BUT WERE SENT INTO THE WORLD, WHERE DID THEY COME FROM???? HEAVEN, FROM GOD OF COURSE.

    #866717
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    So Jesus didn’t come down from Heaven? And he is called Jesus so he is Jesus and he is called The Word of God, but he is not The Word of God.

    Makes perfect sense.

    #866718
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    You

    IF JESUS AND “THEY” ARE NOT OF THE WORLD BUT WERE SENT INTO THE WORLD, WHERE DID THEY COME FROM???? HEAVEN, FROM GOD OF COURSE.

    Me

    HEAVEN AND from.

    God IS NOT THE SAME THING.

    HEAVEN is the dwelling place of God and Christ and the angels.

    From God : it is our union with God through Jesus Christ by the Spirit.

    Thé Apostles were from God but not from Heaven.

    They don’t came DOWN from Heaven,

    Jésus HIMSELF came DOWN from Heaven.

     

     

     

    #866719
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Gene
    Or Jodi
    Show me in the Bible when a word of God or words of God are fulfilled, that it is used THE EXPRESSION “BE MADE FLESH”.
    Thank’s

    Be honest

    The Word became flesh and Jesus Christ came in the flesh.

    Must be a coincidence Jodi.

    #866720
    Berean
    Participant

    Proclaimer

    The devil does not want the world to know the real identity of Jesus.

    And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus

    ( Revelation 12:17)

    God bless

     

    #866721
    Ed J
    Participant

    When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
     
    What you are saying Edj, is the Spirit will ride a horse and then will dwell in all things. Never heard that one before.

    Hi T8,

    The HolySpirit puts ever thing under the subjection of Christ,
    Christ then baptizes them with God’s HolySpirit; so that God may be all in all.

    I hope you understand now as it’s not complicated at all.

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #866722
    carmel
    Participant

     

    Hi Gene,

    YOU: Carmel…..I am not saying or “implying”, that Jesus is the source of GOD’S WORDS,

    ME: I never said that YOU SAID: that Jesus is the source of GOD’S WORDS

    Gene, you are so of the habit to lie that you never realize that what you say are pure lies.

    I SAID: JESUS IS

    THE ONLY PHYSICAL SOURCE OF THE FATHER’S

    GENUINE WORDS AND WORKS.

    THE FATHER IS NOT PHYSICAL BUT SPIRIT, THUS HE SENT HIS SON TO BE HIMSELF

    PHYSICALLY IN HIM AND BY HIM.  

    NOW, ATTENTION PLEASE:

    ACCORDING TO YOU

    SINCE JESUS’ WORD’S ARE NOT HIS, BUT THE FATHER’S ORIGIN,

    JESUS IS NOT “THE WORD” OF GOD;

    WHICH IS A PURE LIE, SIMPLY here it comes: AS IT IS

    THE FACT THAT JESUS IS

    The only PHYSICAL SOURCE ( not the SOURCE as you said)

    OF THE FATHER’S

    GENUINE WORDS AND WORKS THAT MAKE

    JESUS PRECISELY

    “THE WORD”  OF GOD ITSELF.

    Now

    What I am saying is this,  God spoke in times past “through” the prophets,has in these ladder days spoke to us “through”

    a Son, (LIES AGAIN)Jesus the Christ.

    NOT A SON, BUT HIS SON,

    THE ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER,

    THE ONLY ONE WHO CAME FROM HEAVEN INTO THE WORLD.THE BREAD FROM HEAVEN Gene, 

    Again NOT AS Jodi’s INVENTION CAME OUT INTO THE WORLD.

    NO human OF earth

    CAME INTO THE WORD,

    they are ALL PRODUCTS OF THE SATANIC WORLD FROM ADAM SIN.

    YOU: GOD WAS “IN” JESUS,

    ME: PERFECT; NO HUMAN WAS and NEVER WILL BE IN THE POSITION TO CARRY GOD WITHIN Gene, 

    YOU: VIA THE HOLY SPIRIT,

    ME: NOT AS YOU UNDERSTAND.

    YOU: AND WAS SPEAKING TO US “THROUGH” THE “MAN” JESUS,

    ME: NO  IN THE MAN JESUS, 

    Matthew 3:17 And behold a voice from heaven, saying:

    This is my beloved Son,

    in whom I am well pleased.

     

    YOU: just as God the Father spoke “through” the PROPHETS before him?  NO “DIFFERENCE”.

    NO Gene, not as you IMPLYING I’M AFRAID

    JESUS IS THE ONLY HUMAN WHO WALKED ON EARTH AS

    THE FULL DEITY

    CARNALLY IN JESUS. 

    WITHIN JESUS EMBODIMENT

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH, The SON of man,

    not made true in the flesh, Jodi’s INVENTIONS and ILLUSIONS

    John 14:7If you had known me,

    you would, without doubt,

    have known my Father also:

    and from henceforth you shall know him, and

    you have seen him.

    YOU: God and his word are one and the same thing,

    John10: 30 I(“THE WORD” OF GOD) and the Father are one.

    YOU:God was not the prophets he spoke through,

    ME; I AGREE!

    YOU: nor was Jesus the God that spoke through him either.

    ME: I DON’T AGREE:

    Luke 10:22 ALL THINGS ( EVEN THE TITLE OF GOD AND FATHER) are delivered to me by my Father;

    and no one knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; (NOT EVEN YOU Gene) and

    who the Father is, but the Son,(NOT EVEN YOU Gene)

    and to whom the Son will reveal him.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #866723
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    ME: 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

    You think Jesus was in heaven before in the form of God, where he himself you say is God also, but yet he came down from heaven not to do his own will?? How does that make any sense?

    YOU: My answer is that only the divine Son of God could offer Himself for the salvation of the world; only He, who is in the bosom of the Father in Heaven and is ONE WITH THE FATHER, could offer Himself for the salvation of the world.
    to make the Father known, to pay our debt to the Father. and reconcile ourselves to Him and reunite all things in Him.

    ME: 

    The divine Son of God, is he who was begotten of the Spirit not by measure, an anointing, a calling to righteousness where God had promised to the son of Jesse that He would direct all his ways as He sent this anointed man out into the world TO be our savior. 

    Berean, PLEASE ACKNOWLEDGE the “BECAUSE” in Jesus’ words in Luke 4, the Spirit came upon Jesus BECAUSE he had anointed him TO be our savior. Only this anointed man was sanctified, set apart, to be our savior.

    Berean, PLEASE ACKNOWLEDGE the “PROMISE” and to WHO the promise was made to, in Acts, “Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

    Berean, PLEASE ACKNOWLEDGE you are directly told there was no savior that HAD COME until AFTER the baptism John preached, “When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.”

    Saying that a divine Son from heaven had to come down to be a man in order to save the world is TOTALLY FALSE. You misinterpret scripture because you do not apply other scriptures, and then from those misinterpretations you have invented a false doctrine, a doctrine that goes against the direct given word.

    Why was Jesus anointed with the Spirit and sent out into the world to be our savior? Because such was according to God’s predetermined purpose and foreknowledge, where we are even told that God declared from the beginning that a man would come and fulfill God’s will bringing forth God’s promised righteousness and salvation. 

    God’s plan from the beginning Berean, 

    Romans 5:17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

    All things were made through this one man, without this one man nothing would have been made that was made. All things were made by reason of and for this one man, and it is this one man who is returning IN THE GLORY of our Father. 

    Moreover, we are to be partakers of the One Spirit as Jesus is, the Spirit this one man received upon his resurrection.

    We too are to be heirs of God as he is, a Son of God according to the Spirit as he is, promised to be glorified together, receiving the glory that was promised from God for man from the beginning.

    As this one man received the Spirit (the DIVINE NATURE of God) and it caused him to walk in all of God’s ways, we too will partake of that DIVINE NATURE and be caused to walk in all of God’s ways!!  

    #866724
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene
    Or Jodi
    Show me in the Bible when a word of God or words of God are fulfilled, that it is used THE EXPRESSION “BE MADE FLESH”.
    Thank’s

    #866725
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU:

    The Word became flesh and Jesus Christ came in the flesh.

    Must be a coincidence Jodi.

    Me: You deny that the son of Jesse, Jesus of Nazareth, became Christ according to God’s promised word, so it seems.

    The WORD of God was made true in Jesus of Nazareth, Isaiah 11, 42, 45, and 61, 

    That WORD was that the son of Jesse would be anointed with God’s Spirit without limit, a calling to righteousness where God would direct all his ways and SEND this anointed man out into the world to be our savior.

    Acts 10:37  That WORD, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; 38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

    Acts 3: 6 Then Peter said, “Silver or gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk.”

    The man of flesh Jesus of Nazareth was anointed becoming Christ, and then was SENT out into the world, thus you have Christ coming in the flesh, which is EXACTLY as God had PROMISED that he would come, thus you have God’s WORD made flesh.

    Come on now Berean, the people didn’t behold the glory of Jesus the anointed because he pre-existed and left his glory behind, the people beheld his glory as he performed signs and miracles because he had been begotten with the Spirit Berean, God promised unto the son of Jesse that He would not give His glory to any other, the people beheld that glory. The people didn’t see him as full of grace and truth because he pre-existed and became a half-breed baby, but because he was the promised son of Jesse who at the river Jordan was the one man to  receive the Spirit of WISDOM, UNDERSTANDING, COUNCIL AND MIGHT, KNOWLEDGE AND REVERENCE FOR THE LORD. 

    John 20: 30 Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

    Berean, do you see the details, people believed Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God, BECAUSE OF THE ANOINTING SPIRIT THAT CAME UPON HIM at the river Jordan, which it was then, mind you, that we are told that he was SENT out into the world. Notice likewise that when he was sent into the wilderness, the adversary acknowledges him as a Son of God BECAUSE of the powers of the Spirit that came to dwell within him at the river Jordan. 

     

    #866726
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The HolySpirit puts ever thing under the subjection of Christ,
    Christ then baptizes them with God’s HolySpirit; so that God may be all in all.

    I hope you understand now as it’s not complicated at all.

    So the Spirit rides a horse, then Christ goes around baptising everything with the Spirit? Well I understand, but I would also understand if someone said 1+1=3. Doesn’t mean I agree though.

    #866727
    Jodi
    Participant

    Berean,

    How does this fit your doctrine, you say Jesus left his glory behind but yet the people saw his glory?

    John 1:14 “…and we beheld his glory…””

    How does this fit your doctrine, you say Jesus left his glory behind to temporarily become a man, don’t you?..but yet it is Jesus as a Son of Man who dwells in the glory of the Father.

    Matthew 16:27 “For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.”

    How does the below passage fit in with your doctrine, 

    Acts 2:30 “Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 

    How do these passages fit your doctrine, 

    Romans 1 “Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures, concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; and declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

    Acts 2:33 “This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

     

    #866729
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Proclaimer

    The devil does not want the world to know the real identity of Jesus.

    And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus

    ( Revelation 12:17)

    God bless

    So true. This has been a fight from the beginning. The seed of the woman that would crush the head of the serpent delivering him a fatal blow has seen the enemy try everything to stop this. Scripture attests to the dragon wanting to kill the child and prior to that trying to corrupt the lineage for the promised seed. But since the promise has already taken place now, the Devil fights against all who believe. This includes hiding the truth of who Jesus Christ is and his victory over death and corruption and the true promise that awaits all who are faithful.

    #866730
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Ed. In this case this is probably a specific number. And yes it is possible that there are numerical patterns in the Hebrew and Greek scriptures. But I find many take this way too far. If you want, you can relate anything to anything else if you are creative enough. It doesn’t make it mean anything though.

    #866731
    Berean
    Participant

    How does this fit your doctrine, you say Jesus left his glory behind but yet the people saw his glory?

    John 1:14 “…and we beheld his glory…””

    Me

    I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
    [5] And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.(John 17)

    Since Jesus prays his Father to glorify him near himself with the glory that he HAD WITH HIMSELF …. THIS IS THAT GLORY HE HAD GONE.

    ONLY SOME APOSTLES (PETER, JAMES, JOHN) HAVE SEEN JESUS TRANSFIGURED WITH THE GLORY OF GOD (And for a short period of time)

    WE SEE THIS IN MATH 17: 1-7

    And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
    [2] And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
    [3] And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
    [4] Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
    [5] While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

    God bless

     

    #866732
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    You are not getting my point at all.

    Jesus is still a man, and you are told that he as a man has the glory of the Father.  

    Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

    Matthew 17:2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 

    Berean, you are trying to tell me that Peter, James, and John saw Jesus as his pre-existing glorious self, the glory that he would return to?

    That is just not so at all according to scripture.

    The glory that they saw was glory of a MAN having the glory of the Father

    Acts 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

    Revelation 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two edged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. 

    Rev 2:16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

    Peter, James, and John saw the Son of Man, the son of Jesse of Isaiah’s prophecies, in the glory of the Father,

    Isaiah 11:4 but with righteousness he will judge the needy, with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked. 

     

     

    #866733
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    You

    You are not getting my point at all.

     

    Jesus is still a man, and you are told that he as a man has the glory of the Father.

     

    Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

    Me

    Not Only in the Glory of the Father but

    In His OWN Glory….

    Read Luk 9:26

    For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and [in his] Father’s, and of the holy angels.

    God bless

     

    #866734
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Please address specifically,

    You are told that YHVH made all things alone, all by Himself, and that He declared the END from the beginning. As YHVH declared the end from the beginning, He likewise revealed that word of the end to the prophets. That end you are directly told is a son of David who is given an eternal throne, a Son of Man who is given dominion overall that YHVH had created by Himself. Thus it is of ABSOLUTE TRUTH and should be obvious that WHEN YHVH was making the heavens and the earth alone for the purpose to put a Son of Man on an eternal throne, then all that YHVH made, He did so by reason of and for this Son of Man. 

    Likewise we are told that it is by ONE MAN that peace was made, by one man there is a resurrection unto eternal life. Therefore it should be obvious to you that in this ONE MAN do all things consist, without this man, nothing would have been made that was made.  The earth wasn’t made for the purpose of  an eternal pattern of sin and death, it wasn’t made in vain, it was made for that which the one man would execute, salvation and righteousness. Without this END that this one man brings forth to which YHVH had specifically declared would be done by this one man from the beginning, nothing would have been made that was made, YHVH had all things consisting in him from the beginning. 

    #866735
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU: Read Luk 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father’s, and of the holy angels.

    ME: Exactly, THE SON OF MAN has his own glory!! This verse seems to speak totally against you Berean, as it speaks to the Son of Man having his own glory. 

    What does the passage mean? 

    The Son of Man Jesus, is coming in the glory of the Father, because Jesus has His Spirit upon him directing all his ways. Jesus will also once again on earth do the work of the Father in the Father’s name. He is the man ordained of God to judge the quick and the dead, and he will do so not with his own eyes and ears, but through the Spirit of God that has been eternally bestowed upon him, the Spirit that is life because of RIGHTEOUSNESS.

    The Son of Man Jesus, is coming in his own glory, he was raised a firstborn of many, where unlike all the rest that sleep the sleep of death, his body was not allowed to see decay before it was changed into a human body of glory, power, made incorruptible. As the firstborn of many who had died for our sins, he received a portion with the great, and he has received the honor to divide the spoil with the strong. The Son of Man Jesus comes in the glory as a king of kings and a lord of lords. He has glory as the leader over the Saints to complete God’s purpose for why God created all things in the first place. 

    Berean, Jesus is returning having the glory of the one man to whom God declared from the beginning would come and execute God’s purpose.

    Isaiah 11:10 In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his resting place will be glorious.

    Before the Son of Man went to die on the cross, he asked God for the glory that was from God for the Son of Man that God had declared from the beginning!

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