John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 21,041 through 21,060 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #866736
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    calm down JODI
    don’t get excited like that.
    You just told me:

    You

    You are not getting my point at all.

     

    Jesus is still a man, and you are told that he as a man has the glory of the Father.

     

    Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

    I have answered you

    Not Only in the Glory of the Father but

    In His OWN Glory….

    Read Luk 9:26

    For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and [in his] Father’s, and of the holy angels.

    IN HIS OWN GLORY….ABD FATHER’S GLORY

    JODI WHAT DO YOU SAY ABOUT THAT?

    ANSWERS ME PLEASE

     

    God bless

     

     

    #866737
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    If Jesus were only a man, he could not judge the good and the bad …
    think a little
    Jesus is called THE WORD and he is God made flesh.
    If you don’t believe this part of the truth, you cannot understand the rest and you will continue to preach an outlaw Christ ….

    #866738
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Jodi, is this statement what you believe, yes, no, or don’t know.

    The messiah’s name is Jesus and also The Word of God. He is Jesus but he is not The Word of God.

    Yes or no.

    And I realise you will not an answer this directly because you are not honest enough. Can you see the deceit in your heart now?

    #866739
    carmel
    Participant

    mike, (1 John 1:1) “our hands have handled, of the Word of life”

    Hi Edj,

    1 John1:1 That which was from the beginning,(GOD ALL KNOWING: JESUS CHRIST IN THE FLESH)

    which we have heard, ( FIRST THROUGH SCRIPTURES and AFTER WITH OUR EARS; THE GOSPEL)

    which we have seen with our eyes,( THE SON OF MAN)

    which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, (AFTER THE SON OF MAN CAME BACK TO LIFE)

    of the word of life:

    YOU: Hi Mike,

    This verse is about John and other apostles talking part in writing “The Bible”.

    …it does not mean that they were touching Jesus’ flesh.
    You get so far off-tract when you don’t understand…

    “The Word” of God is God’s “HolySpirit”, not Jesus:

     

    ME: I’m afraid Mike is right, to accept the fact that John wrote in that manner and focussed on 

    THE PHYSICAL SENSES OF

    THE HUMAN FLESH SUBSTANCE!

    First and foremost THE WHOLE CAUSE OF OUR CREATION IS PRECISELY

    THE SUBSTANCE OF THE FLESH.

    CURSED!

    AS GOD WAS TOTALLY

    CONCERNED 

    FOR THE IMPERFECT

    Simply as Lucifer never accepted God’s process in order for Him

    TO BE PHYSICAL, TANGIBLE, AND VISIBLE FOR ALL TO SEE HIM SIMPLY   

    BECOME FLESH!

    GODMAN.

    Lucifer simply rebelled, AFTER HE WAS DENIED THE BEATIC VISION, while still within a probation period.

    Thus he opted to confront God as he felt that he

    THE ANGEL OF LIGHT by whom all the heavenly realms were ENLIGHTENED physically,  also AS A SPIRIT, and SPIRITS ABIDE and LIVE ONLY IN BODIES,  had every right to be

    LIKE THE MOST HIGH, and HIMSELF OWN

    THE PHYSICAL ENTITY OF THE FLESH, EVIL, MORTAL, FILTHY,  CORRUPTED AND SO ON IN SHORT

    AGAINST GOD, 

    ALL THAT GOD WAS NOT AND HAD NOT ACCREDITED IT ALL TO HIMSELF TILL GOD PROVES OTHERWISE.

    Thus God ALL KNOWING, established “THE WORD” THE SON OF MAN, JESUS, the only

    SPIRIT/MEDIATOR who could be the source of what

    GOD COULD NOT,

    SIMPLY TO SHIELD, TO PROTECT, TO SEPARATE and UNIFY IN THE SAME TIME ALL,

    BETWEEN GOD THE PERFECT and HIS CREATURES  SPECIFICALLY THE IMPERFECT.Hebrews 4:12

    CONSEQUENTLY, God attributed to Him! THE FULL POWER OF GOD, and 

    ETERNAL LIFE,  ENGRAFTED ONE SUBSTANCE AND IN THE SAME INSTANT DISTINCT, 

    FOR THE SAKE OF FREE WILL, IN THE BEGINNING LUCIFER PRECISELY IN

    LUCIFER’S HEART,

    THE HEART OF STONE TO BE. SIMPLY TO BE SLAIN FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD Rev. 13 :8 BY WHICH TASK, GOD WOULD NEVER ERADICATE THE LEAST OF HIS CREATURES NO MATTER HOW EVIL THEY BECOME UNLESS HE COMMIT

    A SUICIDE and ERADICATES HIMSELF IN

    “THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN TO BE.

    OUR LORD TO BE.

    Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil:

    I the Lord(JESUS) that do all these things.

    5And this is the declaration which we have heard from him, and declare unto you:

    That God is light,

    and in him there is no darkness.

    THUS THE BATTLE FOR THE FLESH BODY started on this planet, LUCIFER’S.

    Purposely created VERY GOOD both POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE, WHERE ORIGINALLY  OUR PLANET WAS

    PHYSICALLY IN TOTAL HARMONY WITH GOD.

    WITHOUT THE NEED OF THE SUN THE PHYSICAL LIGHT AND ITS PROCESS. 

     

    IT WAS VITAL FOR JOHN, A SPIRITUAL WRITER TO PROCLAIM

    GOD IN FLESH ON EARTH IN JESUS CHRIST.

    In those days GNOSTIC BELIEF was powerful. Well pinpointed out in

     

    2John1:7 For many seducers are gone out into the world,

    who confess not

    that Jesus Christ (pre-existed) is COME in the flesh:

    this is a seducer and an antichrist.

     

    1John5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that

    Jesus is the Son of God? 

    6This is he that came by water and blood, ( SOUL and FLESH), Jesus Christ:

    not by water(SPIRIT) only, but by water and blood.(HUMAN)

    And it is the Spirit which testifieth,

    that Christ is the truth. (MANIFESTED ON EARTH GOD MADE MAN)

     

    Jeremiah 32:26And the word of the Lord came to Jeremias, saying:

     27Behold I am the Lord (JESUS CHRIST)

    THE  God of all flesh: (John 17:2)

    shall anything be hard for me?

    1John4:1Dearly beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits if they be of God:

    because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

    2By this is the spirit of God known.

    Every spirit which confesseth that Jesus Christ( PRE-EXISTED) is COME in the flesh, is of God:

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

    #866740
    Ed J
    Participant

    mike, (1 John 1:1) “our hands have handled, of the Word of life”

    Hi Edj,

    1 John1:1 That which was from the beginning,(GOD ALL KNOWING: JESUS CHRIST IN THE FLESH)

    which we have heard, ( FIRST THROUGH SCRIPTURES and AFTER WITH OUR EARS; THE GOSPEL)

    which we have seen with our eyes,( THE SON OF MAN)

    which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, (AFTER THE SON OF MAN CAME BACK TO LIFE)
    of the word of life:

    Hi Carmel,

    Thanks for explaining how you understand the verse in light of what I said.

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #866741
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi Edj.

    I think you’re the only one here who thinks the Holy Spirit will come to Earth on a horse. But I guess you have the gematria to back that one up, so it must be legit. Lol.

    #866742
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    The Son of God IS from the biginning “the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person,”

    THE BRIGHTNESS OF THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER

    AND THE EXPRESS IMAGE OF HIS PERSON( GOD’S PERSON)

    AND THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH

    THE GLORIOUS SON OF GOD WAS MADE FLESH…..

    #866743
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene
    Or Jodi
    Show me in the Bible when a word of God or words of God are fulfilled, that it is used THE EXPRESSION “BE MADE FLESH”.
    Thank’s

    #866744
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Berean. You will lucky to get a straight answer out of these guys. This is their tactic when they are stumped. I hope they can see their own deceit and I pray it leads them to repentance.

    #866745
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Jodi, is this statement what you believe, yes, no, or don’t know.

    The messiah’s name is Jesus and also The Word of God. He is Jesus but he is not The Word of God.

    Yes or no.

    And I realise you will not an answer this directly because you are not honest enough. Can you see the deceit in your heart now?

    #866746
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Ed: Hi Mike,

    This verse is about John and other apostles talking part in writing “The Bible”.

    …it does not mean that thay were touching Jesus flesh.
    You get so far off tract when you don’t understand…

    “The Word” of God is God’s “HolySpirit”, not Jesus:

    Hmm… so many places we could start.  We could go through 1 John 1 verse by verse and see if your “Bible” theory holds up.  Or you could explain how the Bible is riding a horse in Rev 19:13.   But let’s start with my last post to Jodi.  Do you agree that John the Baptizer made a statement about THE WORD in John 1:15, and then made the same statement about JESUS, THE LAMB OF GOD in 1:30?

     

     

     

    #866747
    Ed J
    Participant

    Ed: Hi Mike,

    This verse is about John and other apostles talking part in writing “The Bible”.

    …it does not mean that thay were touching Jesus flesh.
    You get so far off tract when you don’t understand…

    “The Word” of God is God’s “HolySpirit”, not Jesus:

    Hmm… so many places we could start. We could go through 1 John 1 verse by verse and see if your “Bible” theory holds up. Or you could explain how the Bible is riding a horse in Rev 19:13.

    Hi Mike,

    It’s easily explained in one verse:

    “It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing:
    the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.” (John 6:63)

    The Bible is more than “words”, “The Bible is Spirit.
    words are spirit – “The Word” is the (Holy)Spirit

    “For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God
    (Like Jesus Apostles cited in 1John 1:1) spake as they were moved by the HolySpirit.” (2 Peter 1:21)

    #866748
    Ed J
    Participant

    But let’s start with my last post to Jodi. Do you agree that John the Baptizer made a statement about THE WORD in John 1:15, and then made the same statement about JESUS, THE LAMB OF GOD in 1:30?

    Hi Mike,

    1) “14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
    (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,)
    full of grace and truth. 15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he
    of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.” (John 1:14-15)

    1) “The Word” was made flesh when Jesus was baptized with God’s HolySpirit
    and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father.

    You seem to be forgetting that they did not behold Jesus’ “glory” until AFTER he was baptized with God’s HolySpirit

    2) “29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God,
    which taketh away the sin of the world. 30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh
    a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.” (John 1:29-30)

    “And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
    33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me,
    Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he
    which baptizeth with the Holy Spirit. 34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God
    .” (John 1:32-34)

    John bore record that Jesus was “the Son of God” AFTER Jesus was baptized with God’s HolySpirit.
    fulfilling the prophecy in Luke 1:35 concerning him…

    “therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.” (Luke 1:35)

    John was the first (chronologically) to call Jesus “the Son of God” starting at Jesus baptism.

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #866749
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    One reason I like discussing the bible with you is: You like me,
    listen to the points others make and address those points.

    Not everyone here at this site does that. They keep instead regurgitating
    the same old refuted tired arguments over and over. That being said:

    My goal is not to convince you that your view is wrong; but
    instead to explain my view – citing the relevant Scripture.
    The truth doesn’t need to be defended, only to be told.

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #866750
    Berean
    Participant

    Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

    For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    GODHEAD= DIVINITY

     

    IN JESUS CHRIST DWELLETH ALL THE

    FULNESS  OF THE DIVINITY  BODILY

    IN JESUS CHRIST THERE IS
    THE DIVINITY UNITED TO HUMANITY
    EMMANUEL: GOD WITH US

    Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.(Mathew 1:23)

     

    God bless

    #866752
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Ed…

    But let’s start with my last post to Jodi.  Do you agree that John the Baptizer made a statement about THE WORD in John 1:15, and then made the same statement about JESUS, THE LAMB OF GOD in 1:30?

    #866753
    Ed J
    Participant

    Do you agree that John the Baptizer made a statement about THE WORD in John 1:15

    No

    #866754
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi and Gene,

    Matthew 3:9

    And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

    Do you guys believe this statement?  I’ll assume that you realize nothing is impossible for God, and that He could indeed raise up a son for Abraham out of a stone if He chose to.  So knowing this, let’s pretend that Jesus was raised up as a son of Abraham/Jesse/David FROM A STONE instead of born of Mary and the Holy Spirit.

    Would that change a single thing about Jesus’ deeds in the NT, or about the OT prophesies concerning him?  He still would have come from Bethlehem.  He still would have been foretold to rule forever from the throne of David.  He still would have been given the Spirit without measure.  Etc, etc, etc.

    So every single one of the scriptures Jodi posts to “prove” that Jesus was foretold to be a human being would still all apply.  Not one of them would need to be omitted or changed in any way.  But at the same time, this statement would ALSO be just as true:

    Jesus preexisted his humanity as a STONE.

    Are you understanding now what we’ve told you so many times?  YES, we ALL agree with EVERY ONE of your scriptures saying that Jesus would be/was a human being.  But if God raised him up as a child of Abraham/Jesse/David FROM A STONE, then that blue statement above would be equally true – and so it could be said that Jesus was once a man AND Jesus was once a stone.  Both would be EQUALLY true statements.

    Can you guys agree to that?  Can you understand that, if this was the case, there would be no amount of scriptures you could post saying Jesus was a man that would ever change the fact that first existed as a stone?

    Likewise, there is no amount of scriptures you can post saying Jesus existed as a human that will ever change the scriptural fact that he first existed (and does again) as a spirit entity in heaven alongside his and our God, YHVH.

    #866755
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Mike, OK my turn:

    “It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing:
    the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.” (John 6:63)

    Do you agree that since John 6:63 says words are spirit, therefore “The Word” is Spirit?

    “Yes” or “No” ?

    #866756
    Ed J
    Participant

    Jesus preexisted his humanity as a STONE.

    Hi Mike,

    “And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that
    spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.” (1 Cor 10:4)

    The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
    This is the LORD’s doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.” (Psalms 118:22-23)

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

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