John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 21,001 through 21,020 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #866695
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Yes Berean. One man from Earth and the other from Heaven. We are of one or the other.

    #866696
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    We are just going around in circles Berean, once again you don’t speak to the scriptures I gave and the point made directly from what they teach. You just bring up something else, to which I directly respond to and then you again come back with bringing up something else.

    Jesus said he was not of this world as they were not of this world, and that as they were sent he was sent. If Jesus is not of the world, then where was he from?  He came down from heaven of course, he came from God and he was sent by God. 

    Likewise consider that “he whom God sent, speaks the word of God for God giveth him the Spirit not by measure“.

    Such makes Jesus of Nazareth not only the “only begotten Son” to whom God sent, but also Jesus of Nazareth existing in the FORM of God.

    As I pointed out to you earlier, there was no savior SENT until AFTER the baptism John preached.

    There was no savior until the Spirit came down to abode upon Jesus, an anointing, so he could be sent out into the world coming to the people not being of the earth, nor being one that speaketh of the earth, he came directly from heaven/from God to speak heavenly words and be our savior. 

     

    #866697
    carmel
    Participant

     

    Hi Jodi,

    Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth

    a ROD (DAVID/JESUS) out of the STEM of Jesse, and

    a BRANCH (JESUS) shall grow out of

    his(JESSE/DAVID’S) ROOTS THUS

    JESUS IS THE BRANCH AND THE ROOT OF JESSE/ DAVID 

    NO?

    CONFIRMED FURTHER DOWN IN

    10 In that day

     the root of Jesse, (JESUS)

    who standeth for an ensign of the people, him the Gentiles shall beseech, and his sepulchre shall be glorious.

    Let’s read now

    Isaiah 53:1 WHO hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

    In the above scripture a hidden and mysterious process, either occurred or in progress, confirmed hereunder:

    2And he shall grow up as a tender plant before him, (THE LORD) and

    as a ROOT out of a

    DRY ground.

    What does the above connotation tell you Jodi, which definitely asserts

    JESUS’PRE-EXISTENCE 

    Now in view of the above scriptures, Jesus is

    A ROD, and BOTH A BRANCH and A ROOT.

    NOW BRANCHES ARE PRODUCED BY ROOTS,

    WHICH MEANS THAT

    JESUS PRODUCED HIMSELF.

    In the same way when HE ATE HIMSELF IN THE LAST SUPPER,

    HE IS BOTH THE BRIDE AND THE BRIDEGROOM AND ALSO WHICH IS A

    MIND-BOGGLING FOR YOU

    JESUS WHILE HE WAS DEAD HE WAS ALSO ALIVE 

    GODMAN ON EARTH AND 

    HE RAISED HIMSELF UP

    GOD DEFINITELY ACHIEVED ALL IN/BY

    “THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN.

    JESUS’ PROCESS Jodi, DEFINITELY NOT LIKE HIS BRETHREN, what do you think?

    LET’S  BE CLEAR :

    JESUS, PRE-EXISTED AS A SPIRIT.

    SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD Rev.13;8 ETERNAL LIFE.

    IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE,

    AS THE ROOT 

    JESUS CREATED FIRST GESSE, APART THE ENTIRE CREATION ALL IN HIM,

    THEN DAVID, HIS FATHER IN HIS SOUL/HEART, 1Samuel 16:7

    JESUS THE SON OF MAN, AS A SPIRIT WAS EMBODIED IN DAVID, SIMPLY TO MAINTAIN HIS PRIMACY AND BE THE FIRST KING WHO UNITES ISRAEL, AND THROUGH DAVID, HIS OWN LINEAGE, 

    DAVID’S STOCK,

    AND FINALLY, HE CREATED MARY HIS MOTHER IN HER SOUL/HEART, HIS GENUINE ABODE AGAIN TO MAINTAIN HIS PRIMACY AND BE THE FIRST SINLESS WOMAN CONSEQUENTLY

     NEVER DIED THE DEATH, WELL PROPHESIED, UNAWARE OF BY SATAN TO EVE,

    Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said to the woman:

    No, you shall not die the death. 

    BY WHICH WORDS HE WAS CONDEMNED

    WHEN JESUS CAME

    INTO

    THE WORLD OF THE HOLY GHOST.

    Now Jodi here comes again:

    Isaiah 53:1 WHO hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

    2And he shall grow up as a tender plant before him, (THE LORD) and

    as a ROOT out of a

    DRY ground. 

    NO MATTER HOW  CURSED, FILTHY, SATANIC, AND EVIL THE ENTIRE PROCESS OF THE WORLD AND THE HUMAN RACE WERE

    NOTHING ABSOLUTELY NOTHING COULD STOP JESUS’PRE-EXISTED SPIRIT 

    SLAIN…….Rev.13;8

     FROM MOVING MYSTERIOUSLY HIDDEN FROM CREATURE TO CREATURE EVEN IN THE WOMBS OF THE FOUR SATANICALLY CONTAMINATED WOMEN:

    TAMAR, RAHAB, RUTH, and BATHSHEBA.

    OBVIOUS AS A SPIRITUAL SEED,

    “THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, THE SEED OF GOD.

    AS A PHYSICAL SEED, OVUM/SPERMA,

    IT WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN POSSIBLE.

    A TASK  SATAN WAS CONVINCED OF,

    THAT JESUS WAS NOT SINLESS, NEVER MIND THE MESSIAH.

    Mentioned by Paul in

    1Corinthians2:8 Which none of the princes of this world

    KNEW;

    for if they had known it,

    they would never have crucified the Lord of glory.

    Now   MORE TRUTH  about

    WHO IS THE WORD :

    Rev.5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne, a book written within and without, sealed with seven seals. 2And I saw a strong angel, proclaiming with a loud voice:

    Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

    3And no man

    was able, neither in heaven, nor on earth, nor under the earth, to open the book, nor to look on it. 4And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open the book, nor to see it.

    5And one of the ancients said to me: Weep not;

    behold the LION of the tribe of Juda,

     the ROOT of David,

    (THE CREATOR OF DAVID)

    hath prevailed to open the book, and to lose the seven seals thereof.

    Rev. 22 16 I Jesus have sent my angel, to testify to you these things in the churches.

    I am THE ROOT (CREATOR)and (ALSO)

    STOCK (LINEAGE) of David,

    the bright and

    MORNING STAR. (PRE-EXISTED)

    NO YOU AND GENE WILL NEVER SEE THE TRUTH OF 

    WHO IS THE WORD!!!

    Matthew 22:41And the Pharisees being gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42Saying:

    What think you of Christ? whose son is he?

    They say to him: David’s. 43He saith to them:

    How then doth David

    IN SPIRIT

    call him Lord, saying: 44The Lord said to

    my Lord,

    Sit on my right hand, until I make thy enemies thy footstool?

     

    45If David then call him Lord,

    how is he his son?

    BOTH THE BRANCH and THE ROOT???

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #866698
    Ed J
    Participant

    GEMATRIA Edj ????

    13:18 ωδε η σοφια εστιν ο εχων τον νουν ψηφισατω τον αριθμον του θηριου αριθμος γαρ ανθρωπου εστιν και ο αριθμος αυτου χξς

    “Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man;
    and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.” (Rev 13:18)

    This is Gematria…

    χ=600, ξ=60, ς=6

    χξς =Six hundred threescore and six

    #866699
    Ed J
    Participant

    Edj

    In Révélation 19

    The person on the white horse comes to judge and fight the nations with justice.

    Tell me to whom God the Father has entrusted this JOB?
    The Son of man (JESUS CHRIST) ???
    THE HOLY SPIRIT ???

    Hi Berean.,

    Ask questions: that’s how you learn:

    “The HolySpirit”

    “The LORD (JEHOVAH) said unto my Lord (Jesus Christ), Sit thou
    at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

    2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion:
    rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.” (Psalms 110:1-2)

    The rod of Jesus’ strength is the HolySpirit.

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #866700
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The Holy Spirit dwells in all things that are not sinful. It is the Spirit of the Father. But you say the Holy Spirit rides a horse? That is more akin to what a person with a body does. After all, a horse has a body too.

    Look at this scripture. Notice that the plan is for God to dwell in all. Obviously by his spirit this will be accomplished. But the Spirit riding on a horse like Jesus riding on a donkey? That’s news to me.

    For he has put everything under his feet. Now when it says that everything has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

    When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

    What you are saying Edj, is the Spirit will ride a horse and then will dwell in all things. Never heard that one before.

    #866701
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Edj,

    YOU:The ROD of Jesus’ STRENGTH  is the HolySpirit.

     

    ME: BUT THE PROBLEM WITH YOU, I’M AFRAID IS THAT

    YOU ARE STILL SEARCHING  WHO ACTUALLY IS

    “THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN!

     

    THUS WITH RESPECT TO YOUR PERCEPTION,

    IF THE HOLY SPIRIT IS

    ONLY

    THE ROD OF

    JESUS’STRENTH, NOT EVEN JESUS’ STRENGHT, FIRST AND 

    FOREMOST

    WHO IS JESUS? ALSO ARE YOU IN

    THE POSITION LIKE I

    PINPOINTED OUT TO Jodi, and Gene, to

    DETERMINE WHO AND WHAT IN ACTUAL FACT IS 

    THE SON

    of man, taking consideration the scripture hereunder:

    Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come,

    God sent his Son,

    made of a woman, made under the law:

    5That he might redeem them who were under the law: that we might receive

    the adoption of sons.

    6And because you are sons,

    God hath sent

    the Spirit of his Son

    into your hearts, crying: Abba, Father.

    7Therefore now he is not a servant,(any more)

    but a son.

    And if a son,

    an heir also through God.

    8But then indeed, not knowing God, you served them, who, by nature, are not gods. 9But now, after that you have known God, or

    rather are known by God:

    (  IN THE SON

    of man)

    how turn you again to the weak and needy elements, which you desire to serve again? 10You observe days, and months, and times, and years. 11I am afraid of you, lest perhaps I have laboured in vain among you.

    12Be ye as I, because I also am as you: brethren, I beseech you: you have not injured me at all. 13And you know, how through infirmity of the flesh, I preached the gospel to you heretofore: and your temptation in my flesh,

    14You despised not, nor rejected:

    but received me as an angel of God,( THE NEW MORNING STAR, THE NEW LUCIFER, THE LIGHT BRINGER, 

    THE SON

    OF

    man)

    even as Christ Jesus.

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

    #866702
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Jodi

    You

    We are just circling Berean, again you are not talking about the scriptures that I have given and the point taken directly from what they teach. You just bring up something else, to which I respond directly, and then you come back again and bring up something else.

    Jesus said he was not of this world as they were not of this world, and when they were sent he was sent. If Jesus is not of the world, then where did he come from? He came down from heaven of course, he came from God and he was sent by God.

    Me

    WHEN JESUS ​​SAYS HE CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, IT MEANS THAT HE CAME DOWN FROM THE PLACE WHERE GOD THE FATHER IS.
    THE DISCIPLES OF CHRIST DID NOT COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN.
    TO BE OR NOT TO BE OF THE WORLD IS ANOTHER THING …..

    Why would Jesus ALSO have said the following:

    When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
    [62] What and if ye shall see the Son of man ASCEND UP WHERE HE WAS BEFORE?(John 5)

    SEE ALSO JOHN 17: 5,24

    God bless

    #866703
    Berean
    Participant

    Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
    [10] Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
    [11] Give us this day our daily bread.
    [12] And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
    [13] And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

    #866704
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene
    Or Jodi
    Show me in the Bible when a word of God or words of God are fulfilled, that it is used THE EXPRESSION “BE MADE FLESH”.
    Thank’s

    #866705
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    What and if ye shall see the Son of man ASCEND UP WHERE HE WAS BEFORE? (John 5)

    Naysayers will find the way to make it say something else. Lol. Just add a few extra words. BTW, even a kid could do that. No special skills needed

    #866706
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer………No “WORD” “EVER”!, can “BE”, FLESH.  only a fool Would believe that!  That verse is saying,  GOD the Fathers word, came to be, or into being,  it was the “flesh” man Jesus.  What Jodi and I are telling you is the truth.

    You said if I were being honest I would have said , “the word of God was not Jesus”,  but you see he was  “the “FULFILLMENT ” OF , the word of God ?  But he “HIMSELF IS NOT GOD’S WORDS”, get it? 

    Then I quoted what he himself said, “the words I am telling you are “NOT” MY WORDS, but the WORDS of him who sent me” 

    Now if he “himself”, were the words of God “himself”, then why would he say the words , we’re “Not” his words. Get it?  Has the light started to come on yet,  or are you still walking around in the dark?

    You tell us Jesus is not God,  but is himself  the word, then OUT OF THE OTHER SIDE OF YOUR MOUTH,  you quote to us JOHN 1,  which says the “word was God”,  but you deny this.  If your going to say Jesus is the word of God,  then you must say, he is God also,  GET IT? 

    Proclaimer if anyone need to repent it is you brother, not Jodi nor I,  We both know whereof we speak. IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene

     

    #866707
    Jodi
    Participant

    Good Morning Berean,

    YOU:

    When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
    [62] What and if ye shall see the Son of man ASCEND UP WHERE HE WAS BEFORE?(John 5)

    SEE ALSO JOHN 17: 5,24

    ME:

    Berean, in John 6 Jesus is speaking to his death, his shed blood and his broken body of flesh, having them drink of the cup and break and eat of the bread.

    John 6:62 is about Jesus dying and being raised again to life. The Son of man ascends up from the grave to where he was before, where he then appears to many. 

    READ verse 63:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

    Romans 8:11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

    Berean, NOTICE how Jesus refers to himself as the Son of Man ascending where he was before, by that and the surrounding context it should be obvious to you that he is talking about his death and how he will be  RAISED/ASCEND to where he was before.  

     

    #866708
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    John 6:62 is about Jesus dying and being raised again to life. The Son of man ascends up from the grave to where he was before, where he then appears to many.

    Me

    No Jodi

    JESUS said I came DOWN from. HEAVEN AND ASCEND TO WHERE HE WAS BEFORE

     

    John 16:28
    I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world; now I leave the world, and go to the Father (Heaven).

    #866709
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene
    Or Jodi
    Show me in the Bible when a word of God or words of God are fulfilled, that it is used THE EXPRESSION “BE MADE FLESH”.
    Thank’s

    Be honest

     

    #866710
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    Let’s talk about John 17:5 and 24!!

    Now recall how THE SON OF MAN DIES and ASCENDS to where he was before, but this time he is a Son of Man who was raised/ascended in GLORY, in power, made incorruptible (I Cor 15).

    Also know that this Son of Man was exalted to sit at God’s right hand, just as Jesus prophesied of himself.

    Mark 14: 62 “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

    Luke 22:69 But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God.

    Acts 7:56 “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”

    He likewise said,

    Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

    Also know that Christ is called an heir of God, and we joint heirs with him, and he was raised receiving the Holy Spirit according to a PROMISE, according to God’s WORD. 

    Also know that Isaiah 53 tells you that the man who sheds his blood is resurrected and receives a portion among the great and is to divide the spoil with the strong. 

    Also know that Acts 17 tells you that God is going to judge the world by a man that He has ordained. 

    Also know that Paul quotes the prophecy concerning the Son of Man from Psalms 8 as fulfilled, speaking of the MAN Jesus who received glory and honor from God and was given dominion over all the works of YHVH’s hands.

    Also know that YHVH had promised that He would be a Father to David’s son, that He would keep His goodness upon him forever, that He would settle him into His house and give him an eternal kingdom. 

    Also know that the son of David God knew that he would fulfill all of God’s will, and that he would sit on his father David’s throne according to the flesh. 

    Also know that Isaiah’s prophecies are not completed and it is a son of Jesse who has God’s Spirit upon him who will fulfill all of God’s will. 

    THEN KNOW and BELIEVE that YHVH declared the END from the beginning, where His Word was a man would fulfill all His will, His purpose for creating heaven and earth in the first place, where all flesh would come to worship YHVH.

    ALSO KNOW and BELIEVE that YHVH made man in His own image and that He created the earth He says by Himself not doing so in vain, but for it to be inhabited. Then know and believe that Jesus is a firstborn of many brethren who was anointed with the cup of gladness above his fellows, made a king of kings and a lord of lords.

    ALSO KNOW and BELIEVE that the origin of Jesus is of David’s seed and that He is a Son of God according to the Spirit with power, BY HIS RESURRECTION FROM the DEAD (Romans 1), where he had received the Spirit ACCORDING TO A PROMISE (Acts 2).  

    SUCH IS THE END that YHVH declared from the beginning, such was the glory that was of God for the Son of Man from the beginning. 

    Jesus was not ignorant to that which YHVH had declared from the beginning. Jesus went to the cross having faith in all of God’s word concerning him.

    He had faith he would be raised in glory, power, made incorruptible.

    He had faith he would be raised a firstborn of many brethren.

    He had faith that he was that promised Son of Man who would be exalted to sit at God’s right hand.

    He had faith that he would be raised receiving God’s Spirit so that he could finish the work written according to God’s word in Isaiah.

    He had faith he would return in the glory of the Father to finish that work as the son of Jesse would do, where he would bring forth his brothers and sisters to also be heirs of God’s Spirit, to let them drink of the cup that he drinks of, the Spirit that is life because of righteousness.   

    John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with (para/from) you before the world began.

    “ME” Berean, is the Son of Man, and I just gave you all the glory that was from God for this Son of Man declared by God before the world had even began. 

     

    #866711
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    John 17:24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

    Berean, is your God not all knowing? When God declared the END from the beginning, where He knew that all flesh would come to worship Him, where He knew that the son of David was going to fulfill all His will and become a firstborn of many brethren, God did not love us all from the beginning? Do parents not love their children even before they are born in away? Imagine you are a parent who has the power to know you even before you are formed in the womb, you would not have love for them? Good grief Berean, who is your God????

    YHVH made all things out of love, where He knew each one of us from the beginning.

    Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

    Acts 3:21 Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. 22 For Moses said, The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.’

    Acts 17:26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands.

    Acts 17:31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

    Berean, a Son of Man was raised in glory, the glory that was from God for this man declared by God from the beginning. All that God made He did so by reason of and for this man, without this man nothing would have been made that was made. All things consist in the man who through the anointing eternal Spirit that was upon him brought forth redemption by his blood, so that there could be a new beginning. God most certainly did love this man whom He promised to be a Father to and settle him into His house and give him dominion overall the works that He ALONE had made. God most certainly loved Jesus when He declared the END from the beginning which was a New beginning, a new heaven and a new earth that Jesus would be the firstborn over it all.

    #866712
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    John 16:28
    I came forth from the Father(Heaven), and am come into the world; now I leave the world, and go to the Father (Heaven).

    #866713
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    When will you answer what I have asked you?

    Show me in the Bible when a word of God or words of God are fulfilled, that it is used THE EXPRESSION “BE MADE FLESH”.

    Thank’s

    #866714
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    It’s so unfortunate how you continuously, and very conveniently to serve your doctrine, refuse to APPLY scripture with scripture.

    38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

    Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

    Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

    John 34:34 For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.

    John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. 

    Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. 

    Berean, Jesus was the only man set apart and sanctified by being begotten of the Spirit without limit, where he was THEN SENT out into the world to do God’s work, to fulfill ALL of God’s will as the son of David was promised to do, where he was to speak the words of God and to set us free from sin. Other’s were also begotten of the Spirit, but they were according to a limit, some were made healers, others prophets, Jesus was the only begotten of the Spirit sent having all the powers of God’s Spirit. 

    By the Spirit you are sent coming down from heaven to do works from heaven, you are not of the world, and you do not speak of the world.

    Notice how The Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God mean the same thing, because the Kingdom of God means it is from God thus from heaven, just as the Kingdom of Heaven, means that it is a Kingdom from God thus from heaven.

    Berean, the Son of Man is from David’s seed, the Son of Man didn’t come down from heaven and then go back up to heaven. It’s crazy that you are even trying to say that because it’s against your own doctrine, as you say the spirit son of God came down from heaven, not a Son of Man came down from heaven.  So which is it Berean??

    John 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 

    38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

    Jesus tells you when he was sent, and that his purpose was to do the will of God. When he was anointed with the Spirit, sanctified with the Spirit he was not of this world but he was sent into the world.

    Berean, I have asked you this before,

    If Jesse and “they” are not of the world but were sent into the world, where did they come from???? HEAVEN, FROM GOD of course.

    Berean, the Son of Man must deny his own will, we see him do that when he is tested in the wilderness, we see him do that when he asked God to take the cup from him, but he said not as he wills but as the Father wills. The very fact that the Son of Man didn’t follow his own will but denied it made him not only humble but also made him existing in the form of God.

    You think Jesus was in heaven before in the form of God, where he himself you say is God also, but yet he came down from heaven not to do his own will?? How does that make any sense? 

     

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