John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 20,861 through 20,880 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #866527
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    John 1 speak of the Son of God AND of God His Father WHO were together in the biginning.

    THIS the thruth Jodi , I don’t lie Before God

    I wouldn’t tell you this if it wasn’t true.

     

     

    #866528
    Berean
    Participant

    It is the beautiful and simple truth to receive in his heart …
    Open your heart Jodi
    It’s the truth

    #866529
    Berean
    Participant

    It’s not the Trinity’s doctrine.

    That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

    #866530
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    You telling me so, doesn’t work for me. Me seeing you time and time again not responding to scriptures and my direct points to what they do and do not teach, just avoiding, doesn’t help you appear to be at all credible.

    You brought up 2 Corinthians 8:9 I respond to it applying other passages and no actual response back from you.

    You bring up divinity and I pull up actual scriptures that discuss it and apply those passages to others, you give back no actual response. There is actually no debate going on here, it’s pathetic.

    Quote what I say and then give me a direct passage that makes what I said untrue. Is that really too much to ask, is it too difficult to do?

    #866531
    Jodi
    Participant

    Berean, let’s talk about THE WORD, shall we? Is that possible?

    Isaiah 1:10 Hear THE WORD of the LORD, you rulers of Sodom; listen to the instruction of our God, you people of Gomorrah!

    Isaiah 2:3 Many peoples will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths.” The law will go out from Zion, THE WORD of the LORD from Jerusalem.

    THE WORD here represents the law or instruction of God, it doesn’t represent a pre-existing Son of God. 

    #866532
    Jodi
    Participant

    Berean,  let’s talk about THE WORD, shall we? Is that possible?

    Titus 1:2 in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, 

    THE WORD here represents eternal life, not a pre-existing Son of God. 

    1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was WITH the Father and has appeared to us. 

    THE WORD here is eternal life, which was WITH the Father from the beginning, even before time began.  

    Isaiah 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.’ 11 From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do. 12 Listen to me, you stubborn-hearted, you who are now far from my righteousness. 13 I am bringing my righteousness near, it is not far away; and my salvation will not be delayed. I will grant salvation to Zion, my splendor to Israel.

    THE WORD here is salvation and righteousness, eternal life. 

    THE WORD here is a man would come and fulfill this purpose. 

    THE WORD here is that both eternal life and a man who would come and fulfill it, was THE WORD made known FROM THE BEGINNING. 

    Berean, to try and tell me that because Jesus is named THE WORD OF GOD, that makes THE WORD in John 1:1 a Son of God who exists as God’s utterance since the beginning of time, is not only just totally nonsensical, but it is with all void of what scriptures teach.  

    1 John 1 tells you directly what the WORD that was WITH GOD from the beginning IS.

     THE WORD ETERNAL LIFE was WITH GOD from the beginning.

    Isaiah 46 tells you specifically that with God from the beginning was THE WORD that a man who would come to fulfill His purpose. 

    Berean, John 1 is the chapter that speaks of Jesus’s anointing, him being filled with grace and truth as the Spirit descended upon him. SUCH IS God’s WORD from Isaiah 11, 42, and 61 made true in the flesh, where the people then beheld his glory, the very glory that God had promised to no other in Isaiah 42. This anointed man was sent out for to be a light, also just as Isaiah 42 said. He was despised and rejected by his own, just as Isaiah 53 had prophesied. 

    John 1 is about the man of God’s WORD who would come that God declared from the beginning.

    John 1 is about the Son of Man, the son of Jesse, who was promised to be anointed and sent out into the world, not being of the world but sent from heaven/directly sent from God, for to be a savior through preaching God’s word and setting us at liberty from our sins. Anointed and sent to be made our source for eternal salvation fulfilling God’s purpose for His creation. NOW THINK about that, use your REASONING SKILLS BEREAN, what does such DIRECTLY IMPLY? 

    I will tell you, but really it should be obvious if you actually THINK ON GOD’S WORD absorbing it, not letting it go in one ear and out the other. 

    Without this man who comes to fulfill God’s purpose, nothing would have been made that was made, because from the beginning it was to be this son of Jesse to fulfill the purpose of why God created all things in the first place. All things weren’t just created by reason of him but also for him. WHO RECEIVES the WORKS of all that God created, WHO IS EXALTED to sit at God’s right hand, WHO is returning in the glory of the Father, WHO is going to sit on an eternal throne according to the flesh being a king of kings and a lord of lords, WHO is going to judge the world and put all enemies under foot, WHO is going to cause all nations to be blessed? The Son of Abraham, Jesse, and David, that is WHO, who is God’s Son according to the Spirit by his resurrection from the dead. The first begotten of the dead of many brethren WHO was raised receiving the promised Holy Spirit, wherein righteousness and eternal life is. 

    MOREOVER John 1 is about Jesus being recognized as the Son of God, the king of Israel, a direct reference to 1 Chronicles 17, where FIRST you have a son of David, and THEN God becomes a Father to him, promising that He WILL also never take His mercy away from him, promising He WILL also settle him in His house, promising He WILL also give him an eternal throne. 

     

    #866533
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer,

    Jesus’s name means YHVH is salvation.

    YHVH’s WORD promised from the beginning was salvation unto Eternal Life.

    YHVH’s WORD promised from the beginning was the shedding of Jesus’s blood for him to be made our source for eternal salvation.

    So it couldn’t be more perfect for Jesus to be given another name to be called that fits perfectly with his given name, The Word of God.

    Yes, he is the Word of God.

    You are making the case that he is the Word of God.

    This topic is done now.

    #866534
    Berean
    Participant

    Yes Jésus in John 1 IS CALLED “THE WORD” AND in Révélation 19 “THE WORD OF GOD”

    JESUS (THE WORD) WAS WITH GOD AND WAS GOD…

    All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

     

    #866548
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    To all…..John 1 was talking about the beginning of “all” things , as recorded in Genesis 1 : 1-31,shows ,   GOD “SPOKE” , himself,  17 times.  showing he along created everything on this earth that was created.  That was the beginning  John was talking about, had nothing to do with Jesus at  all.  JESUS was not even in existence in the “beginning” .  

    God’s  “words”  “ARE”  HIM , just as your words are you,  not one ounce of difference.  So you speak so you are, your own words describe who you are and what you are, just as God’s words describe who he is and what he is. 

    You word are also with you and are You,  YOU CANNOT SEPERATE yourself from your words, Nether can GOD SEPERATE HIS WORDS FROM HIMSELF EITHER.  

    That is exactly why it says,  “in the beginning (of creation)   was the word  and the word was with God , and the word was GOD” , YOU CANNOT “SEPERATE” GOD,  Who is a Spirit,  FROM HIS WORDS, no more then you can be seperated from your words. 

    God spoke to us in times past in different ways , and different manners,  and “through” the phophets, but in these “latter days” “through” a Son.  It ‘CLEARLY SAY , “GOD” SPOKE ” THROUGH” Them,  it doesent say “THEY SPOKE” “THROUGH” THEMSELVES! does it?  GOD is Spirit and can SPEED “THROUGH” ANYONE HE CHOSES TO. 

    HE SPOKE “THROUGH” JESUS,   but Jesus know the words he was telling us were not his word,  because he CLEARLY SAID THAT, “the words I am telling you are “NOT” MY WORDS, but the WORDS  “OF HIM”,  WHO SENT ME.  The “prophets” of old could say the exact same thing. 

    No Proclaimer, this subject is far from over, and  will exist till JESUS RETURNS , THEN IT WILL BE OVER,  THAT IS FOR SURE.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene

     

    #866549
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    You don’t Say the TRUTH

    Jesus is the center of the everlasting gospel of which the whole Bible speaks; without Him we cannot come to God.
    Stop resisting the light, you risk a lot by dint of resisting against the truth

    #866550
    Jodi
    Participant

    Good Morning All,

    THE WORD

    As said, John Chapter 1 IS ABOUT the anointing of Jesus. We are reading about God’s WORD made true in the flesh, the prophecies from Isaiah of a man being anointed and sent out into the world to bring forth salvation, righteousness and eternal life.

    John Chapter 1 IS ABOUT A man who had been promised to be begotten of the Spirit of Wisdom, Understanding, Council and Might, Knowledge and Fear of the LORD, a man FILLED THUS WITH GRACE AND TRUTH. The very man whom God had promised from the beginning who would come and fulfill God’s purpose that He had also declared from the beginning. 

    As we are likewise told from prophecy, which is additionally the WORD from God made true in the flesh, a prophet was raised up from among brethren, God put His words in this man’s mouth, and those who heard the WORD and believed would be saved.

    THE WORD

    Acts 10:36 THE WORD which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:) 37 That WORD, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; 38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: 40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;

    1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

    The WORD from the beginning that was WITH the Father promised unto us is ETERNAL LIFE. That WORD became true in the flesh of Jesus of Nazareth, when God raised him from the dead as a firstborn of many brethren. 

    #866551
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    All this to deny the divinity of the Son of God who was made flesh for our salvation.

    #866552
    Jodi
    Participant

    Good Morning All,

    People on this forum seem to have no clue what the Gospel is, what the Good News really is according to scripture.

    The GOOD NEWS is that the Spirit of our One True God the Father YHVH does in fact cause righteousness and life for mankind.

    The man Jesus was anointed with it, said to be a calling to righteousness where God would direct all His ways. As God directed all his ways we are told that he was MADE PERFECT learning obedience through suffering on the cross unto his death.

    We are told that “God hath raised him up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.”

    The Spirit that came to dwell upon Jesus brought forth unto him righteousness and life. 

    We are told that “This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    You people are NOT LISTENING to the WORD, instead it is clear you are blinded and the word of God goes in one ear and directly out of the other. You can’t even put simple two and two together.

    The Spirit gives life because of righteousness we are told. 

    Jesus wanted you to know that he could do nothing of himself, it was all God being in him and with him.

    Isaiah 45:13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.

    18 The Spirit of the LORD is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

    Isaiah’s prophecies concerning the son of Jesse are not completed yet, this son of Jesse was raised from the dead receiving the promised Holy Spirit and by that Spirit he is returning in the glory of our Father to judge, not with his own eyes and ears but through the Spirit of righteousness that is upon him.

    He is returning to share the glory, share of the cup of the One Spirit, where with that Spirit upon us it will cause our own righteousness and eternal life, as it causes us too to walk in all of God’s ways. The Spirit will bear witness to our spirit that we are children of God, heirs of His Spirit, a Son like Jesus, a joint heir with Jesus, for those who are LED by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God.  

     

    #866553
    Berean
    Participant

    No one denies what Jesus did when he was in the flesh (birth, life, death, resurrection, ascension and his next return) …. that is not the subject of this topic
    The subject is :
    WHO IS THAT WHO IS CALLED “THE WORD”
    WHO IS “THE WORD”?

     

    #866554
    Berean
    Participant

    This is very important because the Bible says in John 1
    that THE WORD WAS GOD

    AND That

    THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH….

    #866555
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean…..Wrong again,  GOD,  the  Father is the center of everything  that exists ,  the Gospel is about, the SALVATION OF GOD THE FATHERS , “work” in humanity.  Just as the scriptures say,  “God”  so loved the world, that “HE”,  gave ,  his “only (uniquely) ” begotten human  son, by raising him from the , “dead” , back to “eternal” life,  that whoever believes in him “should” not parish”.   Berean if you ‘truly” believed in Jesus you would believe in what he said? 

    YOU DO NOT ‘TRULY”,  BELIEVE IN HIM OR YOU WOULD , “BELIEVE” IN WHAT HE SAID”.   AND when he said,  “the words he was telling us were “NOT” , “HIS” WORDS , YOU WOULD BELIEVE THAT ALSO.  That alone tells us you don’t actually “believe”   Jesus at all,  or you would agree with him. In fact you don’t even believe him when he said ,  ” this is eternal life, that they might know “YOU” the “ONLY” true God.”. .., and Jesus who you have sent.”  Berean do you know God the Father, as the “ONLY” TRUE GOD?  Jesus sure did. 

    Satan loves you people, your doing exactly what he wants you to do with Jesus,  Change the “IMAGE” of him,  OF BEING the second Adam ,  A  HUMAN BEING,  INTO YOUR GOD.  2THS2. It’s all there for those who have the eyes to see. That man of sin mentioned is the false “IMAGE” you people have created of The “man” Jesus.  That false “image” is changing Jesus’ “IMAGE”  from a “real human being”, into a devine prexisting being a  God. THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT “IDOLATRY ” IS. 

    You people do not bow your knee to Jesus,  “to the glory of God”,  you bow your knee to the “glory of Jesus”,  something Jesus would never have us do. You do not see that God the Father was,  ” IN “,  JESUS “RECONCILING” THE “WHOLE WORLD”,  UNTO “HIMSELF”.  through the ANOINTING SPIRIT he recieved at the Jordan river,  after he was baptized, by John the Baptist. 

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

     

    #866556
    Jodi
    Participant

    Berean,

    You are told the WORD was God. 

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    Jesus tells you that the Spirit IS LIFE.

    Job tells you,the Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.”

    READ, 

    Romans 8:11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

    In the beginning was the WORD -the WORD OF ETERNAL LIFE

    The WORD- of life was WITH GOD from the beginning – as you are told in Titus 1 and 1 John 1 

    The WORD was God -for God’s Spirit is LIFE

    ALSO in the beginning with God was His WORD that a man would come and be made into our source for eternal life. 

    THIS IS ALL BIBLICAL FACT Berean!

    #866557
    Jodi
    Participant

    Berean,

    YES the WORD was made flesh, in many ways as a matter of fact!

    When Jesus was anointed with the Spirit filled with grace and truth, such was God’s word made true in the flesh, and the people beheld his glory as he spoke God’s word and performed signs and miracles all through the Spirit that was upon him.

    It is beyond me how you don’t apply Isaiah’s prophecies that speak of the son of Jesse being anointed with that of the CHAPTER of John 1, which in that chapter you are being given Isaiah’s words as fulfilled in the flesh of Jesus when you are told that the Spirit came down like a dove upon him.

    TRULY how BLIND can you be Berean?????????????

    This anointing was for him to PREACH the WORD, which he did, he preached of the resurrection unto eternal life, and those who believed in his word were saved by it.

    Good grief Berean, Isaiah tells you that he would be anointed, a calling to righteousness where he would fulfill the covenant the promise of salvation and eternal life, he would be for a LIGHT. John chapter 1 is speaking of THIS MAN being the LIGHT because God’s Spirit of righteousness came to dwell upon him. Isaiah also tells you that his own would reject him, which likewise you are told in John chapter 1.

    The below scripture is likewise the declaration of the WORD made true in the flesh. 

    Romans 8:11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

    God’s word of LIFE, that had been with God from the beginning and was God because God’s Spirit is LIFE, was made true in the flesh when Jesus was raised from the dead. 

    #866558
    Jodi
    Participant

    Proclaimer,

    When you don’t believe that Jesus is God, I really don’t understand how you would then possibly try and say that THE WORD from John 1:1 represents Jesus, when THE WORD is said to be God.

    You honestly don’t see how John 1 directly connects to 1 John 1 and Titus 1:2????

    Did not God give word from the beginning declaring LIFE, are you not directly told that such was with Him from the beginning? Are you not told that God’s Spirit is LIFE? 

    Likewise are you not told that God’s WORD from the beginning was also that God would bring forth that LIFE through a man, and that this man became our source for eternal salvation? 

    You too, are you so blind that you do not see that verse 14 is directly speaking to God’s WORD from Isaiah being made true in the flesh of Jesus? ..especially when verse 32 in the same chapter speaks of his anointing of the Spirit?? 

    COME ON!! FULL of GRACE and TRUTH, that has nothing to do with him being begotten of the Spirit of Wisdom, Understanding, Council and Might, Knowledge and Reverence of the LORD????

    No you say, verse 14 is not about God’s word of Isaiah 11, 42, 45, and 61 being made true in the flesh of Jesus.

    You say, 

    it’s about a pre-existing spirit son who existed as God’s utterance leaving his glory behind to become flesh, so that the people could behold his glory as he had actually left his glory behind, and they are to see him as full of grace and truth because he pre-existed as God’s only begotten Son. Is that about right? It’s all absurd.

    #866559
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi and Gene

    If You don’t see THE SON OF GOD in John 1

    know that there is no other solid way of salvation other than THE DIVINE SON OF GOD made FLESH for our salivation.

     

     

Viewing 20 posts - 20,861 through 20,880 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account