John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 20,881 through 20,900 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #866560
    Berean
    Participant

    If You don’t see THE SON OF GOD in John 1

    know that there is no other solid way of salvation other than THE DIVINE SON OF GOD made FLESH for our

    salvation.

     

    #866561
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    God paid the highest price for our redemption. The firstborn of all creation. He didn’t look for the most righteous man he could find and sacrifice him. No he sent his only begotten. If he was looking to send the best among the offspring of Adam, he would have sent John the Baptist.

    I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.”

    #866562
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Well Saïd Proclaimer

     

    God the Father gave his most precious possession: His own Son

    Romans 8
    For this is impossible for the law, because the flesh rendered it without force, -God condemned sin in the flesh, by sending, because of sin, his own Son in a flesh like that of sin, … .

    What shall we say then with regard to these things? If God is for us, who will be against us?

    8:32 He, who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for all of us, how will he not also give us all things with him?

    God bless

    #866563
    carmel
    Participant

    H Berean and Proclaimer,

    YOU:God the Father gave his most precious possession: His own Son

    GOD GAVE

    ALL

    OF HIS MOST PRECIOUS POSSESSIONS. 

    Matthew 13:44The kingdom of heaven is like unto a treasure hidden in a field. Which a man having found, hid it, and for joy thereof goeth, and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.45Again the kingdom of heaven is like to a merchant seeking good pearls. 46Who when he had found one pearl of great price, went his way, and sold all that he had, and bought it.

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #866564
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    To the ” ONLY” Saviour is GOD THE FATHER, No matter how he does it he “ALONE” is the one who saves us.  He was the “only one” who also saved the man Jesus.  Had he not raised JESUS FROM THE “DEAD”,  he still would have been dead to this very day. 

    Jesus is not our Saviour,  GOD the Father is,  and he “only” is the Saviour of his people and his creation, Jesus never himself saved anyone. But you people do not believe Jesus do you?m Jesus  PLAINLY SAID,  “the son of man can do “NOTHING”, of “HIMSELF” , the Father wh I is “IN” him “HE” does the work”.

    You people are nothing but liars, you deny what Jesus says,  almost everytime you open you mouths,   Robbing God the Father of  “His” glory and giving it to a man,  Jesus, is something the “man”  Jesus “never” did. 

    Our salvation has no more to do with Jesus, then  the ancient Isrealites  deliverance from the Egyptian”s had to do with Moses . it’s all  from the start to the finish,  a “WORK”  of  “ONE” TRUE,  God,  the Father .  Moses and Jesus , and many others LIKE PROPHETS ETC. ,  were instruments that God the Father “WORKED” through, to bring about “HIS”  purposes on this earth.  IF you can’t see that, then you people haven’t even begun to understand Jesus or the truth.

    Like I said,  I  bow my knee to Jesus my lord (adoni )  a human ruler, “to the glory of God”.  Jesus is given the position as the head of  humanity (under God the Father), because he is the “firstborn” from the dead, from the human race. He has been “given” that Honor and Glory, from God the Father.  JESUS never prexisted his birth on this earth, he came into being as a human  and still is a human, and always will be a human.  His position he had and has , was and is given him by the “ONE” and “ONLY”  “TRUE” GOD. 

    Peace and love to you and yours. …….gene

     

     

    #866565
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    The Divine Son of God made the CHOICE himself TO GIVE HIS LIFE FOR THE Salvation OF HUMANITY IN ACCORDANCE WITH HIS FATHER .

    17The Father loves me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it up again. 18Nobody takes it from me, but I lay it down of myself; I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it up again: this is the commandment which I received from my Father. (John 10)

    #866566
    Berean
    Participant

    The Savoir of the World

    from John 4

    So when the Samaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there two days.
    [41] And many more believed because of his own word;
    [42] And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
    [43] Now after two days he departed thence, and went into Galilee.

    Jesus did not contradict them

     

    #866567
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Jodi: 1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was WITH the Father and has appeared to us. 

    THE WORD here is eternal life, which was WITH the Father from the beginning, even before time began.  

    Hi Jodi, in what way did the disciples see “eternal life” with their eyes, and touch “eternal life” with their hands? Surely in this case, ‘eternal life” is a metaphor for the physical person of Jesus.  What if, instead of using the pronouns in John 1, we just stuck with the original name of the subject that John used?  Maybe that would help.

    John 1

    14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his the Word’s glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    15 (John testified concerning him the Word. He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ ”)

    Do you see that the subject has not changed, but remains “The Word” that John began talking about in vs 14?  The subject doesn’t change from “the Word” to “the one and only Son” in vs 14.  Rather, the subject is still “the Word”, and we’re told that “the Word” has the glory of  “the one and only Son”.  Do you understand this?

    So it was “the Word” about whom John said, “He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.”

    And we all know exactly who John the Baptizer said that statement about, right?

    John 1:29-30

    The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”

     

    So John testified about the Word: “He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.

    And John testified about Jesus/the Lamb of God: “A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.

    Jodi, it is absolutely undeniable from a straight reading of the text that “the Word”, “Jesus”, and “the Lamb of God” are ALL one and the same person.  And from what I’ve already showed you before, it is undeniable that “the light” is also the same person.  And now you’ve included “the Word of Life” in 1 John, whom the disciples TOUCHED WITH THEIR HANDS and SAW WITH THEIR EYES, right?  So among Jesus’ many titles and names, we can unequivocally include: “Jesus”, “the Word (of Life)”, “the Lamb of God”, “the Light”, and “the Eternal Life”.

    You must eventually face the scriptural facts here.  John the Baptizer came to testify about “the Light”, who came into a world that was created through him but didn’t receive him.  He came to testify about “the Word” who was with God in the beginning, and through whom God created the world.  He came to testify about “Jesus, the Lamb of God”.

    There is only one person John went out into the wilderness to testify about.  And that one person has all of the names mentioned above.  In John 1:1,14; 1 John 1:1; and Revelation 19:13, the name the Apostle John uses to identify him is the Word (of Life/of God).

     

     

    #866568
    Jodi
    Participant

    Proclaimer,

    The anointed Jesus of Nazareth is he whom God SENT into the world to be our savior. 

    You don’t even believe Jesus’s own words that were spoken beforehand by Isaiah, which were in fact God’s WORD MADE TRUE IN THE FLESH. 

    Listen to Jesus,

    18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, BECAUSE he has anointed me TO proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me TO proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, TO set the oppressed free,
    19 TO proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”

    You are told directly that this savior didn’t COME until AFTER the baptism John preached. 

    PROCLAIMER, without the anointing of the Spirit upon Jesus there is NO SAVIOR, do you not comprehend what “BECAUSE” means??????

     

    #866569
    Jodi
    Participant

    Proclaimer,

    to continue,

    John 3:34 For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit. 35 The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 

    Really Proclaimer, the Spirit coming down upon Jesus WITHOUT LIMIT  and then being said to be SENT out into the world, is not Jesus as God’s only begotten Son whom God sent?  

    Proclaimer it is BECAUSE Jesus was anointed with the Spirit and SENT we are saved, saved by believing in the words of God he preached, and by him dying on the cross. It is because of God’s Spirit that came upon him we are saved. It is not because God sent a son to be a human who could do nothing of himself that we are saved. 

    #866570
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi All,

    Jesus of Nazareth was the only human to be begotten with God’s Spirit without limit, and it is he whom God sent out into the world, where we are saved upon believing in the word of God he preached, and through him going to the cross. 

    Our One True God the Father YHVH IS OUR SAVOIR and He saved us through His anointing Spirit that He had begotten Jesus with. 

    That Spirit upon him made him a Son of God, 

    Romans 8:14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God. 

    Isaiah 45:13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.

    Isaiah 42: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 

    Galatians 5:5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope.

    Isaiah 61:1/Luke 4:18,  The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 

    Jesus was given the name Jesus -YHVH is salvation, not because he was a pre-existing only begotten son, but because Jesus was going to be our savior through YHVH’s anointing Spirit coming upon him without measure and then SENDING HIM out into the world. He who IS A SON because he is LED by that Spirit. 

    Luke 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and PROPHESIED, saying, 68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: 71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

    Acts 13:23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

    #866571
    Berean
    Participant

    Jodi

    You

    It is because of God’s Spirit that came upon him we are saved. It is not because God sent a son to be a human who could do nothing of himself that we are saved.

    Me

    First

    Jésus IS not a son , He IS THE ONLY ONE BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD . And only he could be CANDIDATE To save humanity

    TWO

    This is not enough for him to become the Savior of the world; he had to be able to perfectly manifest the character of the Father until the death on the cross, being in the flesh such as ours.
    This is what Paul says in Romain 8

    There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    [2] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
    [3] For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
    [4] That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
    [9] Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
    [10] That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
    [11] And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

     

    #866572
    Jodi
    Participant

    To  ALL,

    Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

    Here you have the WORD given as a PROMISE, where a man is to be BEGOTTEN OF GOD’S SPIRIT being FILLED WITH GRACE AND TRUTH. 

    The people will behold his glory as he is sent out into the world where he will heal the sick and give sight to the blind, where he will walk on water, turn water into wine, make a lot of food from a little, where he will even raise the dead, all doing so by the glory of the power of YHVH’s Spirit that he will be begotten with. 

    Isaiah 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

    Romans 8:14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God. 

    THIS WORD from Isaiah we read was made true in the flesh, 

    John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15 John bare witness of him,…..32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him….34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God. 

    Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 

    Isaiah 45:11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my Sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. 12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. 13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.

    Romans 8:14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God. ..heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ..

    29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

    Jesus was the ONLY mortal man to receive the Father’s glory, be called to righteousness to have YHVH direct all his ways, and thus be a Son of God by being LED by the Spirit that came upon him. 

    He died, but was raised a firstborn overall creation, a firstborn of many brethren, resurrected being an heir of God, an heir of God’s Spirit as was promised since the world began. 

    Galatians 3:14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

    #866573
    Jodi
    Participant

    Berean,

    You are totally blind if you don’t think that Jesus being begotten of the Spirit without measure, an anointing (chrio made into a christos), who was then sent out into the world, does not represent Jesus as God’s only begotten Son whom God sent.

    Seriously, John bore witness, John tells you that he who had God’s Spirit descend and come to abode upon him, is he who is God’s Son.

    We are to inherit the Spirit of God, be a JOINT heir with the anointed of the Spirit JESUS, whose origin is of the seed of David but is declared to be God’s Son ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT by his resurrection from the dead, AS HE had been raised from the dead RECEIVING AS PROMISED unto the son of David, the Holy Spirit. 

     

    #866574
    Jodi
    Participant

    Anyone here want to tell me the below is a LIE??

    Isaiah 11, 42, 45, and 61, the Spirit coming upon the son of Jesse a calling to righteousness, is our One True God the Father YHVH’s WORD made true in the man of flesh Jesus, at the river Jordan. 

    #866576
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    You still haven’t figured it out Jodi.

    Believing that God made all things through the Son and that he is now with God in the glory he had before the cosmos, doesn’t negate that he came as a man and fulfilled prophecy.

    This is all you have, and with your sleight of hand you want to pit one set of scriptures against another.

    We are onto to your deception. Give up. Try something else. You’re fooling no one except Gene.

     

    #866577
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    Titus 1:2 in the hope of eternal life, which God,

    who does not lie, 

    promised

    before the beginning of time,

     

    YOU: THE WORD here represents eternal life,

    not a pre-existing Son of God.

    Jodi, the word

    PROMISED

    is the most influential in Titus 1:2

    Now may I ask you a

    VERY SIMPLE question please?

    WHAT DOES IT REVEAL WHEN A PERSON PROMISES ANOTHER PERSON  SAY

    A THOUSAND DOLLAR?

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #866578
    Berean
    Participant

    How true is what you say Proclaim and I will add that God continues to do all things through Jesus in the Heavenly Sanctuary (as Advocate, Mediator and High Priest and finally Judge) until
    his people be ready to welcome him at his coming in the clouds of heaven.

    #866579
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi, Jodi

    1John1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the word of life: 2For the life was manifested; and we have seen and do bear witness, and declare unto you the life eternal, which was with the Father, and hath appeared to us:

    YOU:  THE WORD here is eternal life, which was WITH the Father from the beginning, even before time began.

    Jodi, IN THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE IT CLEARLY SAYS THAT THIS

    ETERNAL LIFE HATH

    APPEARED!

    IF “THE WORD” JESUS, THE SON OF MAN TO BE, ETERNAL LIFE, 

    DID APPEAR

    DOESN’T IT MEAN TO YOU THAT

    IT PRE-EXISTED BEFORE IT APPEARED?

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #866580
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    YOU:That was the beginning  John was talking about, had nothing to do with Jesus at  all.

    JESUS was not even in existence in the “beginning” .

    ME: THE BIGGEST LIE EVER PRONOUNCED!READ:

    John1:1 IN the beginning was the Word,

    and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

     2The same was in the beginning with God. 

    3All things were made

    by him:

    and without him

    was made nothing that was made.

     

    John8:25  They said therefore to him:

    Who art thou?

    Jesus said to them:

    The beginning,

    who also speak unto you.

    1 John1:1That which was from the beginning,

    which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the word of life:

    Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God,( THE FIRST EMBODIMENT OF GOD, BEFORE THE WORLD WAS) John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.(the abode of God)

    the firstborn of every creature:

    PRE-EXISTED

    16For in him were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers:

    all things were created by him and in him. 

    17And he is before all,

    and by him all things consist. (ETERNAL LIFE)

    18And he is the head of the body, the church,

    who is the beginning,(OF ALL BEGINNINGS)

    the firstborn from the dead;(SPIRITUALLY DEAD BOTH IN HELL AND ON EARTH, ORIGINALLY

    SLAIN LIKE A LAMB FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD Rev.13:8)

    that in all things he may hold

    the primacy: (the first of all the FIRSTS)

     19Because in him,

    it hath well pleased the Father, that

    all fullness should dwell;

     20And through him to

    reconcile all things unto himself,( RECREATED ANEW IN HIMSELF)

    making peace through the blood of his cross,

    both as to the things that are on

    earth,

    and the things that are in

    heaven. 

    HEAVEN and EARTH REESTABLISHED ANEW

    ALL PHYSICALLY  IN

    JESUS’EMBODIMENT

    “THE WORD” MADE FLESH

    JESUS’ HUMAN NATURE

    SIMPLY GOD AND FATHER OF ALL PHYSICAL John 17:2

    Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all.

    WITH HIS OWN BLOOD IMMEDIATELY ON HIS DEATH, BY WHICH DEATH HE INTEGRATED ONE SUBSTANCE WITH

    THE HOLY GHOST 

    JESUS’DIVINE NATURE

    peace and love in Jesus Christ

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