John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 20,501 through 20,520 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #864406
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @t8

    Then again some of those who believe that all things were made through the Son, seek the scriptures for more information on the matter and accept that God the Father is identifying the Son as the YHVH who is spoken of here in Hebrews 1:10 “You founded the earth in the beginning, Lord, and the heavens are the works of your hands.

    And add to that so many other proofs of the ONE who is YHVH our Righteousness who is spoken of as the ONE through whom all things are made. Scripture speaks clearly but the veil covers the mind of those who seek Him through their own frail intellect. God can remove the veil of the man who turns from his own way of thinking to accept the truths of the glorious gospel. When Peter said the foundational truth statement of the church, “You are the Son of God,” he was speaking of the Son as the only begotten biological Son of God, not a created Son of God. He who has the Son has eternal life. He who has the Son, that same Son gives them power to be children of God.

    Many members here consider Jesus as the created Son of God. They also consider all of mankind as created sons of God. So no big deal. It doesn’t take a special revelation from the Father to believe in that way. Man’s logic says YHVH  created the world alone so God must be only one person, therefore Jesus must not be God end of discussion.

    But God has one biological Son and God identifies that Son as YHVH our Righteousness who founded the earth in the beginning and the heavens are the work of HIS hands. Now what do people do with that? Those who use frail logic try to show how God doesn’t really say that about the Son and then there are those who believe God and take it by faith and learn about the Unity of YHVH and believe that both the Father and the Son are involved in creation.

    By faith we are saved not by our own logic. Let the word of God speak to your heart, t8.

    #864418
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Then again some of those who believe that all things were made through the Son, seek the scriptures for more information on the matter and accept that God the Father is identifying the Son as the YHVH who is spoken of here in Hebrews 1:10 “You founded the earth in the beginning, Lord, and the heavens are the works of your hands.

    Some stick to the scriptures and others with wild imaginations come up with theories and join dots that shouldn’t be joined and use third-party influences.

    I prefer to believe each scripture and then give room for God to show the big picture. I am against isolating scriptures as proof and ignoring difficult scriptures.

    #864420
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    T8. ….Most of the time, those difficult scriptures are the one people use to make them say what they are not “specifically ” saying , they don’t compare them with the rest of the “clear” Scriptures that show their conclusions were wrong.   Satan loves that. MANY will not even question their learned misinformation, so they can get a clearer understanding.  

    That is why I like Jodi’s posts she uses not just one or two scriptures to show scriptural “truth” , but many scriptures to show it, and drives her points in using many  scriptural proofs, I love that about her, and all who do that.

    Some will make long posts and misquote scripture after scripture to try to prove their misguided points,  not even realizing what the are writing is not even written in any of our scriptures. The thing about being decieved is that,  the person deceived doesn’t even know he or she is,  and most do not want to be proven wrong, but those who love the truth do want to, if they are wrong. Because they “love the truth”.  BECAUSE THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH IS “IN” THEM.  They take no offense when being proven wrong. 

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

     

    #864423
    carmel
    Participant

    ME: SO THE HOLY SPIRIT WORKS ALL MY HIMSELF, WITH HIS SPIRITUAL MIND

    HE IS THE SERVANT THIS TIME

    HE IS SERVING JESUS CHRIST  John16:12-15
    IT IS HIS TASK  THROUGH OUR MOST BLESSED MOTHER MARY TO MAKE YOU ANOTHER JESUS

    YOU Sorry, I don’t speak drunkenese.

    ME: I don’t blame you Mike, if for you, I spoke drunkenness,  it proves that you are still on milk, and not ready for the MEAT. From the other hand, I could speak drunkenness since I spoke about the SPIRIT.

    Let’s face it, you don’t even deserve an answer, Mike, the way you spoke, it’s no use to reveal to you

    THE WISDOM OF GOD, AS FOR YOU IT IS SIMPLY

    FOOLISHNESS!

    Why didn’t you produce John16:12-15 and justified your point. That would have been something to see

    WHO REALLY SPEAK DRUNKENNESS, SIGNOR Mike!

    I don’t even know what the hell are you talking about!

     

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

    #864424
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @t8

    You said:

    Some stick to the scriptures and others with wild imaginations come up with theories and join dots that shouldn’t be joined and use third-party influences.

    I prefer to believe each scripture and then give room for God to show the big picture. I am against isolating scriptures as proof and ignoring difficult scriptures.

    Who gives a person their imagination, t8? When in doubt, you are to test the message or the theory. This is not the way to test something: “that third party thesis probably says this or that and therefore disagrees with what I believe and therefore it is wrong” or “we can’t connect ‘those’ dots.”

    Those reasons that you have been using lately, that something can’t be true, are very poor reasons my friend. You need not be afraid of a thesis, it does disagree with who you think is the “theos of this age” and you don’t want to be wrong about that, do you? Reading an opposing view can often be enlightening but you have to have an open mind and not be afraid to acknowledge that you have been wrong. For the love of truth, consider that a third party paper where the person took many hours of research to include Bible verses, history, grammar, etc. and wrote 300 or so pages about the topic might have something you can at least point out as to why he is not correct.

    You also need not to be afraid of the creativity of others who are claiming that Jesus is the Son of God. Tell me why Jesus can’t be the only begotten biological Son of God or admit that it is possible at least. Test all things and tell us why they are wrong in an intelligent way. Don’t just degrade the creativity, tell me why the Son could not be a result of asexual reproduction before creation. He is either the only begotten biological Son or He is not. If you agree with that, say so. If you don’t believe that the Son of God is not the only biological Son begotten before creation, tell me why…show your reasons. Degrading the idea doesn’t show reasons, it shows that you have no reasons and therefore degrading the idea is the best you can do. It is not clever at all. Also, please tell us why connecting dots to get to the truth is wrong, don’t just mock it. That makes you look like a gas lighter. Gather your defense…prove your case and stop hiding, stop degrading. Degrading others is a coward’s way.

    What I show you or link you to has the intent of helping you. I am not your enemy trying to take your time. I believe that Jesus is the Son of God.

    LU

    #864426
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Who gives a person their imagination,

    I said wild imagination. That is, not tamed by God or a vain imagination.

    Those reasons that you have been using lately, that something can’t be true, are very poor reasons my friend. You need not be afraid of a thesis, it does disagree with who you think is the “theos of this age” and you don’t want to be wrong about that, do you?

    Do not be of this world. If you love the world, then the love of God is not in you. If your God is the god of this world, then that is your choice.

    You also need not to be afraid of the creativity

    Love creativity. But not into being a crafty serpent.

     I am not your enemy trying to take your time.

    Not sure if you are or not. But my only priority is to give truth and scripture the win. If I see preaching that goes against scripture, I call it out. It’s no more complicated than that.

     

    #864427
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    By faith we are saved not by our own logic. Let the word of God speak to your heart, t8.

    Okay.

    1 John 4:12 (English-NIV)
    No one has ever seen God; ….

    1 Timothy 1:17 (English-NIV)
    Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.
    Amen.

    1 Timothy 6:15-16 (English-NIV)
    15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
    16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

    I believe this and you do not. Because Jesus is not the God who is invisible, but the IMAGE of that invisible God.

    1 Corinthians 8:5-6 (English-NIV)
    5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
    6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

    I believe the above scripture and you truly do not. There is one God and that God made Jesus both Lord and Christ.

    1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
    Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

    I believe that Christ has a head, but you believe that Jesus is God. Another win for me here.

    Ephesians 4:4-6 (English-NIV)
    4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
    5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
    6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

    Again, this is what I truly believe while your confession is that there is one God the Father and Son. And that there is One Lord the Father and the Son. In the correct context, there is one God and we know that this God MADE Jesus both Christ and Lord.

    John 17:3 (English-NIV)
    Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 

    That last scripture rebukes your teaching strongly. First off, these are Jesus Christ’s own words and they are eternal life. You teach against this with implied special revelation that God is like a cell. Totally on the wrong path with that one LU. Again, I believe that the Father is the one true God. But you do not believe Jesus because the only true God to you is Jesus and the Father. But Jesus speaks against you with his own testimony. I can only conclude that you are a false teacher. What else are we suppose to conclude when Jesus says one thing and you contradict him with another?

    #864438
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @t8,

    Thank you for those scriptures. I will be addressing them again soon LORD willing. First though, I want to clarify something you don’t seem to understand about the cell theory. I do not think that God is like a cell. I think that looking at the cell during closed mitosis can give us insight how one organism becomes two distinct, yet identical organisms  that have the same substance within them and that substance within them would be the same age for the first generation of the parent/offspring relationship. This is from a post that I made about it:

    I started seriously seeking the relationship of the Father and Son and Spirit for 28+ years. I have been wrestling with it and I believe God has honored my persistence. I have a recent analogy, a picture of an actual design of asexual begetting in the simplest form. Keep in mind that it is analogy mainly to demonstrate how, from one organism, through the process of asexual reproduction (a begetting) two distinct ”persons” are established in the relationship of parent and offspring. In the following picture you can see how the offspring was every bit as much a part of the original as the parent and that the parent had a beginning at the moment that the offspring had a beginning. However, it was the relationship that began, not their substance/essence. In the case of God, their substance/essence was eternal.

    Here is the picture of that analogy:

    ClosedMitosisDiagram

    After looking at this and considering the first time this took place in creation, you can no longer say that a son can not be the same age as his father. That is my main point.

    More later on  the other things that God calls the Son, like “God” and “LORD” for instance and how scripture identifies the Son as YHVH our Righteousness and the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father. Those things aren’t going anywhere, you have to consider them with the other scriptures you posted.

     

    #864439
    Proclaimer
    Participant

     I think that looking at the cell during closed mitosis can give us insight how one organism becomes two distinct, yet identical organisms  that have the same substance within them and that substance within them would be the same age

    Except there is no expectation in scripture or from the apostles to reconcile Jesus as God. So why bother?

    So if there is no expectation and if Jesus even said that his Father was the only true God and that this God sent him, then that is even more reason to not get involved with the philosophy of worldly wide men and women.

    Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 

    I just accept and believe Jesus Christ’s own words. His word is good enough for me, but not for others it seems.

    #864442
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @t8,

    You said: Except there is no expectation in scripture or from the apostles to reconcile Jesus as God. So why bother?

    The cell theory can give insight to John 1:1 and John 1:18 for starters.

    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

    Two different persons are called God in each verse.  One was begotten.

    #864443
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    John 1:1 doesn’t lead us to reconcile two as God.

    It simply states that the Word was with God in the beginning and that this Word was what God created all things through. The Word is theos means the Word was divine. Sharing or participating in divine nature doesn’t make you God because we can share in divine nature. John 1:1 confuses people because of the English translation. The Greek translation makes it simple.

    And elsewhere we clearly read that God is invisible, the only God, the only true God, and the one that sent his son whom he made both Lord and Christ.

    Scripture teaches us who Jesus is.

    As for gods, they are a dime a dozen. And not all gods are false. There is the one true God. God of this world. Even Jesus said, “ye are gods”. When you understand the usage of theos, then the confusion will disappear. If Theos to you means the only true God in every instance, then yes, you will remain confused and may need to resort to mitosis, the Binity, Trinity, or some version of a polytheistic god.

    #864444
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Mitosis doesn’t have to make Jesus God. You see God is God not because he is divine, but because he is the Father of all, even his son.

    Mitosis may help one understand how nature is shared, but as long as we realise that nature doesn’t define you as God.

    God is God because of who he is, that is the Father of all.

    We do not say that your child is you or part of you because of the shared DNA. No we realise that our children are unique individuals not entirely defined by their parents despite their nature. We do not say they are the parents. When you say someone is God, you are saying they are the person of God. God is not God because of a God substance. God is God because he is the Father. Jesus is not the Father.

    #864445
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    In short, the Spirit is the Spirit OF God.

    Jesus is the Son OF God.

    The Father is NOT the Father OF God.

    He is God.

    Simple.

    #864449
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    Here I am!

    Carmel:  Jodi, first of all, IGNOR COMPLETELY YOUR HUMAN MENTALITY…

    YOU: With what, then, will we understand scripture?  I understand that spirit can reveal heavenly things to us.  But we still decipher and make sense of those things with our God-given human mentality.  We have nothing else by which to make sense of them.

    Carmel, people have been saying “you must understand it spiritually, not carnally” for centuries.  I’ve noticed that the people who say this are always the ones arguing for completely nonsensical doctrines that can’t possibly be backed up by a sensible and rational understanding of the scriptures.  If your doctrine requires you to claim that it doesn’t make sense to human mentality, then I’m pretty sure your doctrine is just plain wrong.  Jehovah is not a god of confusion, and the scriptures were written for the benefit of human beings – not spiritual angels.  Therefore they must be able to make sense TO human beings.  Otherwise they’re useless.

    ME: I couldn’t agree with you more. I have addressed this similarly to Carmel a few times. I say the scriptures were written by men through the Holy Spirit to give us the direct truth. I also say that certain passages are more clearly understood through what other passages say. As you probably know, Carmel believes that certain scriptures hold hidden meanings and you can only see those hidden meanings if you have God’s Spirit telling you what those secrets are. As he constantly tells me I am being carnally minded, all I can say is that I am only going to debate over that which is actually written.

    Others also believe in hidden meanings and they have a different doctrine than Carmel. So who then actually has the Spirit upon them giving them the true understanding to those hidden meanings they believe exist, where others don’t see it? There is no actual debating of scripture in this situation, there is no confidence in the word, no confidence that Apostle Paul and others were teaching us the truth. Carmel wants us to have confidence in him, that he has been sent to us by God to reveal to us that Paul wrote in code and he is a chosen decoder. This makes debating with him, as to what scripture says and does not say, impossible, a waist of time.

    #864450
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Mike,

    ME: Can someone explain,

    Jesus is said to be God’s son because he pre-existed as such.

    Jesus is likewise said to be God’s son because he was born with Mary as his mother and God as his Father. So where does the pre-existing son come into this equation?

    YOU: Thanks,   Jodi
    It’s not two different “God’s Sons”, Jodi.  Jesus was the firstborn Son of God long before the other angels or our world was created.  Jesus was “created as the first of God’s works”, and was “the beginning of the creation by God”.  So he was already the only begotten Son of God long before he was sent into the world.  God’s Son was then born on earth as a human being by a combination of Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary.

    Romans 8:3
    For what the Law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin.See?  Jesus was already God’s Son before.  But THEN God sent His son to be born of a woman and dwell on earth in the likeness of sinful man… ie: the Word who was with God in the beginning BECAME flesh.

    ME: I put in bold that which directly addressed my question, however I am still a little unclear. “A combination of Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary”, so Jesus was combination of the Holy Spirit and Mary? Where does the already existing Son come in then? Or are you saying that the power of the Holy Spirit combined the already existing Son with Mary?…which that I can’t wrap my brain around.

    My understanding is that the man Jesus was born again, the Spirit came upon him and did so not by measure, said to be an anointing, and upon that anointing he was SENT. The prophecy of this also further states the promise of a calling to righteousness where God is going to direct all his ways. Paul teaches us that we are joint heirs with the anointed, being also heirs of God. Jesus said that we shall drink of the same cup and be baptized with the same baptism that he was. Jesus said he needed to be baptized to fulfill all righteousness. Paul explains in the same chapter that those who are LED by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God, and that the Spirit bears witness to our Spirit that we are children of God. Paul also teaches that Jesus was made of the seed of David and declared to be God’s Son according to the Spirit, and no doubt an eternal Son at that by his resurrection from the dead.

    Mike, prophecy was that FIRST you have a son of David and THEN God becomes a Father unto him. God became a Father unto Jesus when he was born again at his baptism, God did declare at that moment that this was who His Son was, the man who left the river Jordan having been filled with the Spirit and then was LED by the Spirit into the wilderness where he did not fail because God was directing all his ways.

    I’m trying to make this short!! This anointed Jesus having the Spirit upon him, could be tempted but with God directing all his ways he would never give into temptation and sin. As we are told in prophecy he would be called to righteousness and God would hold his hand and keep him for to fulfill God’s covenant, for him to be a light to the world. This anointed man was SENT out to preach, to deliver captives from darkness, to set us at liberty, to obey all of God’s commands even going to the cross to die, all being able to do so because he was being LED by the Spirit of God, and thus was the Son that was sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, as he was a man who could be tempted like all men, but because he was being fully led by God he could not sin. 

    Mike, it is the Spirit that gives life right?…and the flesh profits nothing, and we are also told by John that the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Jesus was called to righteousness, Jesus received the Spirit and was sent, bringing forth life to the world by God forgiving us through this man who He anointed with His Spirit! Jesus was the ONLY mortal man to have received the Spirit not by measure, by such he was God’s only begotten Son. His resurrection is our resurrection, he was raised no longer an only begotten Son but a Son firstborn of many others to come. As he is a Son according to the Spirit we are to be children of God according to the Spirit also. As Ezekiel says that God is going to give us a new spirit a new heart of flesh and place His Spirit upon us and cause us to walk in ALL of God’s ways, we will be joint heirs with the anointed Jesus, heirs of God’s Spirit as he is, where God’s Spirit bears witness to our spirit (as it does for Jesus), that we are children of God. 

    Jesus is the son of David who will sit on his father David’s throne according to the flesh, being one of many Sons of God according to the Spirit.

     

    #864451
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi…..AMEN, Carmel’s so-called “spiritual understandings”,  are manufactured in his own mind, which he proberly recieved from other fasle teachers,  many of them completely go against sound Doctrines and scriptures.

    No one can ever come to a concensus when someone just ignores direct quoted scriptures and then  add their own private inputations, as to what they “clearly say”. 

    Ti 1:7……For God has not given us the Spirit of fear; but of “power” and of “love”,  and a “sound mind”.  

    I wish Carmel would just stop and think he may see some things correctly,  sad.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

     

    #864453
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @t8

    You said:

    John 1:1 doesn’t lead us to reconcile two as God.

    It simply states that the Word was with God in the beginning and that this Word was what God created all things through. The Word is theos means the Word was divine.

    You have been told many times that the theos in “the word was theos” is a noun. You keep using it as an adjective. See here:

    Screen Shot 2020-06-03 at 5.50.31 PM

    N-NMS means Noun, Nomitave, Masculine, Singular.

    To continue in error, your arguments based on this thinking have been built on error.

    #864454
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @y8

    You said:

    As for gods, they are a dime a dozen. And not all gods are false. There is the one true God. God of this world. Even Jesus said, “ye are gods”. When you understand the usage of theos, then the confusion will disappear. If Theos to you means the only true God in every instance, then yes, you will remain confused and may need to resort to mitosis, the Binity, Trinity, or some version of a polytheistic god.

    You claim that satan is the god of this world. Did you change your mind? Also, do you claim that Jesus is a god? The word theos is used for Jesus, you know.

    And, no, theos to me doesn’t mean the true God in every instance.

    #864455
    carmel
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    YOU: Carmel, people have been saying “you must understand it spiritually, not carnally” for centuries.  I’ve noticed that the people who say this are always the ones arguing for completely nonsensical doctrines that can’t possibly be backed up by a sensible and rational understanding of the scriptures.

    Isaiah 55:For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

    9For as the heavens are exalted above the earth,

    so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts.

    Now Jodi, using our mentality

    WE WILL NEVER AGREE OF THE ABOVE TRUTH!

    Now with respect of the above scriptures we are 

    completely opposite of God in every sense 

    including our mentality!

    When we want to do something, we organize ourselves and start working on it till we achieve what we had in mind!

    As soon as we achieve what we had in mind we enjoy ourselves living with it. TILL WHAT?

    WE THROW IT AWAY SIMPLY BECAUSE ACCORDING TO OUR MENTALITY IT COULD BE DONE BETTER EVEN STILL, AND FOR US HUMANS AFTER MORE THAT 6000 YEARS IT IS 

    A NEVER-ENDING STORY!

    GOD DOES THINGS ONLY ONCE AND it’s THERE FOR ETERNITY!

    WE NEVER NEVER NEVER EVEN ACCEPT IT WHILE LIVING ON THIS CORRUPTED PLANET

    NEVER MIND SEE IT WITH OUR CORRUPTED

    MENTALITY!

    GOD BEFORE HE CREATED ANYTHING HE ESTABLISHED HIS EMBODIMENT OF

    JESUS CHRIST

    FOR HIS OWN PLEASURE

    SIMPLY TO MOVE,

    AS GOD, WHO OCCUPIED THE ETERNAL INFINITE EXISTENCE WAS NOT IN THE NEED TO MOVE, THUS

    GOD LACKED MOVEMENT!

    THIS EMBODIMENT OF JESUS CHRIST, GOD,

    WAS HIDDEN FROM THE HEAVENLY REALMS FOR A PROBATION PERIOD! FOR US ENDLESS TIME!

    SIMPLY AS GOD GAVE FREE WILL TO THE HEAVENLY REALMS IN ORDER TO ACCEPT GOD’S WILL.

    TO ACCEPT GOD

    MAN IN JESUS CHRIST,

    AND

    BE SUBJECT TO HIM and HIS MOTHER!

    DESPITE HIS MOTHER WAS NOT YET CREATED, AS MUCH AS HUMANS WERE NOT!

    The rebel occurred, and God went backwards simply for the.

    TRUTH 

    TO ESTABLISH JESUS CHRIST AS MAN ON EARTH

    FIRST AND FOREMOST!

    THEN AS SOON AS HE DID SO!

    HE WENT TO HEAVEN GLORIFIED ON EARTH AND IN HEAVEN!

    OK LADIES AND GENTLEMEN!

    FOR GOD IN JESUS CHRIST TO BE ACCEPTED AS

    HE WAS BEFORE THE VERY BEGINNING IN HEAVEN,

    HE EMPTIED HIMSELF, BECAME DUST, IN A WAY, LIKE HIS BRETHREN, IN A WAY, WHILE  HE NEVER LOST HIS EXISTENCE IN HEAVEN,

    HE DIED, IN A WAY, HE BECAME ALIVE IN A WAY, HE ESTABLISHED HIS KINGDOM ON EARTH, IN A WAY, WENT BACK TO HEAVEN

    GLORIFIED AS

    OUR LORD GOD AND FATHER JESUS CHRIST

    WHERE HE WAS ETERNALLY AND IS NOW WAITING FOR THAT MOST PRECIOUS MOMENT WHEN ALL THE HUMAN RACE WOULD BE SAVED BY

    THE WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT ON EARTH SIMPLY TO ESTABLISH

    TRUTH AGAIN ON EARTH! 

    once and for all

    WHICH WAS ESTABLISHED BUT NOT ACCEPTED 

    WHEN JESUS DIED ON THE CROSS!

    NOW USING YOUR MENTALITY! which all of you, with every respect would never agree among yourselves,

    TELL ME WHAT MORE TRUTH IS THERE TO ESTABLISH ON EARTH IN ORDER FOR 

    THE HUMAN RACE WOULD FINALLY 

    BE SAVED

    Peace and love in Jesus Christ

     

     

     

    #864456
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    You claim that satan is the god of this world. Did you change your mind? Also, do you claim that Jesus is a god? The word theos is used for Jesus, you know.

    Do not be of the world. Do not love the world. The God of this world is not the God of the cosmos. I haven’t changed my mind. Yes many are called theos, even men. This is my point. It helps people to understand that not all who are described as theos are the Most High God. Only one theos is the most high. That is the Father.

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