John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 20,261 through 20,280 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #863274
    Lightenup
    Participant

    While we are at it, Gene and Jodi, compare these words “the Lord of me” in both these verses as they are in the Greek:

    Screen Shot 2020-04-22 at 12.01.30 PM

    “And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me?

    Compare with this:

    Screen Shot 2020-04-22 at 12.02.41 PM

    Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

    You will see that the Greek words for “the Lord of me” in both verses are the same numbers in the Strong’s dictionary: #3588, #2962, #1473.

    https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/20-28.htm

    https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/20-28.htm

     

    #863275
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    I can call Jesus the master, as I can call him the king, as I can call him the Christ, or the Son of God.

    Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

    Just as Jesus is THE Christ and THE Son, he is THE lord, and THE king.

    THE lord and THE Christ, according to Acts specifically, would equate unto us as THE MAN of whom is THE son of David, and THE Son of God according to the Holy Spirit by his resurrection from the dead

    #863276
    Lightenup
    Participant

    So Jodi,

    Why have you been calling him “a lord” if he is “the lord?”

    #863277
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Lu,

    Here is a passage where “my” mou and “lord” kurios, represent a rich man.

    Luke 16:3 Then the steward said within himself, What shall I do? for my lord taketh away from me the stewardship: I cannot dig; to beg I am ashamed.

    here is a verse for you,

    29 And Jesus answered him,The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord OUR God is ONE Lord:

    There is the lord our God who is one Lord

    and

    There is the lord Jesus the Anointed

    This God is Jesus’s God and our God, Jesus’s Father and our Father John 20:17.

    This God MADE Jesus both lord and Christ. OUR God ordained the man Jesus to judge the righteous and the unrighteous.

     

     

    #863278
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    The Luke 16:3 is a good verse to show that Strong’s #2962 could be lord as in human master, or Lord who has all authority in heaven and on earth. Is the Son of God the Lord of you in the sense of having all authority in heaven and on earth?

     

    #863279
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    Matthew 20:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

    Matthew 20:8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.

    The lord referenced above is called “the lord” for being “a” lord over the vineyard.

    Jesus is “a” lord according to being made “a” lord by his God and our God. 

    Referring to Jesus as the Lord would be specific to what he is “a” lord of, as to his POSITION as a lord that his God and our God gave him.

    5 And he said unto them,That the Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath.

    I can rightfully say that Jesus the Son of man is the Lord over the Sabbath.

    27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

    28 And Jesus said unto them,Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    LU, Jesus is a lord of lords, a king of kings, as a SON OF MAN of whom his God and our God gave him glory.

    Luke 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

    Hebrews 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; 2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.

     

    #863280
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi,

    You said: 29 And Jesus answered him,The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord OUR God is ONE Lord

    Here is the original Greek:

    Screen Shot 2020-04-22 at 1.54.36 PM

    Here is a more accurate translation when you consider a more literal translation to the Greek.

    Mark 12:29 Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

    Can you see that your translation of this verse adds “lord” at the end where there is no “lord” written in the Greek at the end??

    #863281
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi,

    Can you say that Jesus is the Lord of you in the same sense as Elizabeth when Mary visited her while she was pregnant?

    Luke 1  39Now at this time Mary arose and went in a hurry to the hill country, to a city of Judah, 40and entered the house of Zacharias and greeted Elizabeth. 41When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42And she cried out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 43“And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me? 44“For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy. 45“And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what had been spoken to her by the Lord.”

    #863282
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi LU

    Thanks to God that He use you to show us more  the truth about THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.

    God bless

    #863283
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Jodi

    Considere Colossians 1:17a

    17a And he is before all things,…

    Thanks

    #863284
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean ……here is your answer…….1Co 15: 26-27…..”for he (God) has put all things under his (Jesus’) feet.  BUT when he (God) says “all” things , are put under him, it is “manifest” that he (GOD THE FATHER) IS “EXCLUDED”. 

    Jesus himself said this not me….John 17:3…..And this is “life eternal”, that they might know you the “ONLY” TRUE GOD , and Jesus the (anointed one) whom you have sent.  

    And again…..1 Titus 2:5……” For there is “one” God, and “one” mediator between GOD and men, the “MAN” Jesus Christ.  

    Berean,  how clearer could possibly get then that? Why do you spend all your energy denying those clear scriptures? Do you even spend any time even thinking about them? Have you been blinded so bad, you can’t even believe they are truly written in our scriptures.  So it is true as written if God sends unto them a deluding Spirit,  deceived they are,  and deceived they will be , unless God removes that deluding Spirit from them,   they simply can not understand nor perceive  the truth.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene

    #863288
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Thanks for your encouragement Berean. May God be blessed!

    LU

    #863290
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    YOU:

    Hi Jodi,

    The Luke 16:3 is a good verse to show that Strong’s #2962 could be lord as in human master, or Lord who has all authority in heaven and on earth. Is the Son of God the Lord of you in the sense of having all authority in heaven and on earth?

    ME:

    The Son of God is my Lord as he was appointed by his God and my God to have all authority, FOR the purpose of him to follow all of OUR God’s commands to fulfill all of OUR God’s will.  

    LU, prophecy of Isaiah 11 has not been fully completed yet. Jesus is not YHWH but the man who fulfills all of YHWH’s will.

    LU, the son of David who is a Son of God according to the Spirit by his resurrection from the dead, his name is JESUS.

    His God and my God, his Father and my Father’s name is YHWH.

    This is simple and clear.

    Isaiah 42:1 Behold MY servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put MY Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. ..6 I YHWH have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a LIGHT of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. 8 I am the LORD: that is MY NAME and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

    The Son of Man we are told returns in our Father’s glory. That alone should tell you your whole image of Jesus Christ is completely WRONG. 

    John 10:25 Jesus answered them,I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me is GREATER THAN ALL; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

    Luke 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

    #863292
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene , Jodi

    [17] And he is before all things, …

    CONSIDERE just this piece of verse

    Isn’t Jesus BEFORE all things?

    Paul said that JESUS IS BEFORE ALL THINGS….

     

     

    #863294
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Derean…..No one is arguing that point, yes Jesus is before all things, except for His God and our God, his Father and our Father. I quoted that scripture directly that says that. You present Jesus as GOD himself, no scripture says that, Jesus never said he was God, those are the concepts of false trinitarian religion, that infected the true church ,   from the “GNOSTIC’S ” WHO CREATED THE FALSE IMAGE OF JESUS being a GOD,  in the first place .

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene

    #863295
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    YOU:

    Hi Jodi

    Considere Colossians 1:17a

    17a And he is before all things,…

    Thanks

    ME:

    Berean, why don’t YOU consider the CONTEXT of “and he is before all things..” that is directly given to you in the passage. You are not only directly told as to WHO theheIS, but also the very meaning to him being said to be “before” all things. 

    17 And he is before all things, and through him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD; that in all things he might have the preeminence (to be first, hold the first place). 19 For it pleased the Father that in him SHOULD all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, through him to reconcile all things unto himself;

    Let me highlight this in a different way to help you see the context given and then please read the other passages you should apply.

    17 And he is before all things, and through him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD; that in all things he MIGHT HAVE the preeminence (to be first, hold the first place). 19 For it pleased the Father that in him SHOULD all fullness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, through him (the Father that was in him) to reconcile all things unto himself (the Father);

    2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

    Matthew 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

    Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them,Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration (NEW BIRTH) when THE SON OF MAN shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    17 And he (the Son of Man of the NEW BIRTH) is before all things, and through him all things consist (as the Father made peace unto all heaven and earth through his blood). 18 And he (the Son of Man of the NEW BIRTH) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD; that in all things he MIGHT HAVE the preeminence (to be first, hold the first place). 19 For it pleased the Father that in him (the firstborn of the dead/the Son of Man of the NEW BIRTH) SHOULD all fullness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, through him (the Father that was in him) to reconcile all things unto himself (the Father);

    Berean the reason WHY we read “he might have” and “should” is because this is the WORD of our Father that He declared from the beginning now being told to us by Paul as having been fulfilled. 

    Don’t forget what you are told,

    Jesus shed his blood on the cross according to the “determined purpose and foreknowledge of God”

    1 Peter 1,

    “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ”

    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

    “Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”

    “Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, who through him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.”

    #863296
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    Your recent post and actually nearly every post of yours, does not challenge the fact that myself and Christians all over the world believe that Jehovah is more than one person as a unity, where one has the position and true relationship of a father to another who has the position and relationship as his only begotten son. That Father/Son relationship presumes one is greater than the other in authority and in that sense the one with the greater authority would be God to the other. Together they are the unity of Jehovah to creation. Together, they alone created all things. Together they do all things that Jehovah is said to do. The Father does nothing apart from the Son, the Son does nothing apart from his Father.

    Blessings, LU

    #863298
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    YOU: That Father/Son relationship presumes one is greater than the other in authority and in that sense the one with the greater authority would be God to the other.

    ME: 

    This is great! It’s nice to see you actually acknowledging a truth from scripture and making room for it in your doctrine.

    You acknowledge that the Son has a God and that God is greater than he. 

    Now it would be great if you could make more room in your doctrine for additional scripture,

    “I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.”

    “But to us there is but ONE God, the Father

    Let’s put it all together,

    Jesus has a God and that God is greater than him, his God and Father is also our God and Father, and for us there is thus ONE GOD, the Father. 

     

    #863299
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    Maybe there is even more additional room in your doctrine for more scriptures,

    “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;”

    “For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.”

    “And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

    We see Jesus as a Lord unto the glory of his God and our God, our ONE GOD the Father, and this Jesus who was made a Lord unto us is a Son of Man who returns in the glory of our ONE GOD, the Father.

    “Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:”

    “the gospel of God, which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures, concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh, and declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

    Our unity of faith is to believe that Jesus is the seed of David and is a Son of God as a perfect man, according to God’s anointing Spirit, which he received as promised upon his resurrection from the dead. This was promised by our ONE GOD, the Father, before the world even began revealed by the prophets and also given to us by Paul.

    “And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.”

    “But if the Spirit of him (One God, the Father) that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, HE that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

    The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.”

    Jesus’s resurrection is our resurrection, as he is a Son according to the Spirit that directs all his ways, we are promised to be resurrected as Sons, made perfect according to the Spirit, glorified together being joint heirs of the Spirit of the ONE GOD, the Father, with Jesus.

     

    #863300
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jodi……well put, Jesus certanly had a God he prayed to that he called his “father” in heaven, just as he told us to pray ” our ” Father who art in heaven”  by him saying “our”, that’s a all “inclusive ” term, which includes Jesus himself. 

    No scripture tells us to pray to Jesus as our GOD. He is our brother in the family of God, like it says the first born of “many” brethern. We can ask GOD the Father in the name of Jesus, but that’s a far cry from calling him GOD. IMO.

    LU, most trinitarians believe that once they start to question some of the false teaching they have received over the years, it represents a falling away from FAITH, but it only represent a falling away from  false religious concepts, they actually are gaining a  true Faith in the true GOD and Lord Jesus christ. Don’t let the fear of leaving false teaching and  years of traditions, keep you from comming to the truth.  Let the day star rise in your heart, as Peter said it can happen.

    Peace and love to you and yours………..gene

     

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