John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 20,241 through 20,260 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #863244
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    You are given that YHWH from the beginning gave His WORD of a man to come that would execute His purpose.

    CAN YOU BRING YOURSELF TO SAY THOSE WORDS? COULD YOU POSSIBLY PUT THOSE WORDS INTO YOUR HEART WHERE THEY BRING MEANING OF TRUTH TO YOU?

    By REASON OF and FOR

    WHO receives all things, and by whose hands is it directly said that created all things that are then given over to another?

    A Son of MAN receives all things to have dominion. A Son of Man sits at YHWH’s right hand. A Son of Man is returning, and a Son of Man is going to sit on a throne according to the flesh for all eternity.

    YHWH created all things by His Wisdom and Power, you are told He did so ALONE.

    Isaiah’s prophecies concerning the man anointed with YHWH’s Spirit are not yet fully completed. When the Son of Man returns he is fulfilling YHWH’s will through having YHWH’s Spirit upon him.

    CAN YOU BRING YOURSELF TO PUT YHWH’S WORDS THE PROPHET ISAIAH SAID INTO YOUR HEART AND HAVE THEM HOLD MEANING UNTO YOUR THOUGHTS? 

    READ and COMPARE,

    Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

    Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. 6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. 7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil. 8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones. 9 Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase: 10 So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine. 11 My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction: 12 For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth. 13 Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding. 14 For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold. 15 She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her. 16 Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour. 17 Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace. 18 She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her. 19 The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens. 20 By his knowledge the depths are broken up, and the clouds drop down the dew. 21 My son, let not them depart from thine eyes: keep sound wisdom and discretion: 22 So shall they be life unto thy soul, and grace to thy neck. 23 Then shalt thou walk in thy way safely, and thy foot shall not stumble.

    Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; 25 That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish; 26 That confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the counsel of his messengers; that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited; and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the decayed places thereof:

     

    #863247
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi,

    I have many possible things to say about your recent posts. Perhaps I will get to that but I want to put this here for you. This should be clear to those who are willing to see that Jesus is THE Lord, not a Lord AND THE God of Thomas.

    Screen Shot 2020-04-21 at 12.40.58 PM

    John 20:27 Then Jesus said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and look at My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Stop doubting and believe.” 28Thomas replied, “My Lord and my God!” 29Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”…

    #863250
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi,

    You asked:

    Matthew 19: 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

    Who is “he” that says there is none good but ONE?

    Jesus asks questions to some people and looks for evidence or lack of evidence of faith, then responds accordingly. He did not see evidence of the Holy Spirit revealing truth into the man’s life. If he had, he would have reponded in a different manner, imo.

    Hopeful, LU

    #863251
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Gene,

    If you had read my response to your “dia” argument, you wouldn’t keep mentioning it. See if you can find it.

    Have a good day, LU

     

    #863252
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    YOU:

    Matthew 19: 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

    Who is “he” that says there is none good but ONE?
    Jesus asks questions to some people and looks for evidence or lack of evidence of faith, then responds accordingly. He did not see evidence of the Holy Spirit revealing truth into the man’s life. If he had, he would have reponded in a different manner, imo.

    ME: LU, Jesus was making the point that without his God he is nothing. It is the Spirit that brings forth life, the flesh profits nothing. He, like this man is to keep God’s commandments, Jesus is to follow the will of his God and our God. Such is the very reason why God raises Jesus from the dead, through the works of God’s Spirit Jesus had been perfected by God having learned obedience through suffering.

    Matt 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him,Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 

    Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    The message we are given by the bible is that the law does not work righteousness it only produces sin, it was a tutor to bring us to Christ (the anointed of the Spirit).

    The law separates that which is good from that which is bad, right from wrong. God has used time and history to teach man, that he can do nothing of himself, his flesh profits him nothing. Paul tells us that to be carnally minded is death, and that the carnal mind cannot please God, it is not subject to the law nor indeed can be, such is why Paul says we are carnal sold under sin.

    We are given the law but it is not within our own selves to be able to keep it, as only God is good and we are but beasts of a carnal mind like all other creatures. CHRIST teaches us that man is good only through God’s Spirit dwelling within him. This is God’s mercy upon human beings, He gives us of His goodness so instead of being beasts, carnal creatures, we can live in His image.

    Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    We are joint heirs with Christ, we are promised to put on Christ-AN ANOINTING, the fullness of the Spirit that Jesus received, becoming an heir of God’s Spirit.

    If you change the image of Christ you cover up that which is the truth to your own salvation. Our Father is our savior and Jesus is the image as to how our Father saves us. The FLESH profits nothing it is the Spirit that brings forth eternal life. Jesus was raised from the dead receiving the promised Holy Spirit, he was begotten by God’s Spirit where it is to dwell in him for all eternity. His resurrection is our resurrection. He is the man raised first in an order.

    Our Father chose to wipe our sins clean through the suffering and death of one man, with the plan before the world began to then grant us access to the very full measure of the Spirit that He had given unto that one man that had caused him to be fully obedient. God has mercy on us because He knows that we have all sinned we have a fallen short, because we did not have the full measure of His Spirit as Jesus did. That Spirit is that which is necessary to keep us from sin. Jesus THE ANOINTED OF THE SPIRIT is proof to us that the Spirit indeed brings forth life, people witnessed Jesus rise from the dead, so we know that God is true, we know the great work that His Spirit does for a man, it brings forth righteousness and life. 

     

     

    #863253
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene et Jodi

    Stay on Colossians 1

    be very careful

    COLOSSIANS 1: 16-17 KING JAMES BIBLE

    1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers : all things were created by him, and for him:[17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    IN THESE TWO VERSES, WE HAVE THREE PREPOSITIONS THAT INTEREST US:
    “EN”(en), “DIA”(di) and “EIS”(eiV)

     

    oti en autw ektisqh ta panta ta en toiV ouranoiV kai ta epi thV ghV ta orata kai ta aorata eite qronoi eite kuriothteV  eite arcai eite exousiai ta panta di autou kai eiV auton ektistai

    1:16 For by(en) him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by(dia) him, and for(eiV) him:

    17
    kai autoV estin pro pantwn kai ta panta en autw sunesthken
    1:17 And he is before all things, and by(en) him all things consist.

     

     

    1722
    en
    en
    en
    a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between eiV – eis 1519 and 1537); “in,” at, (up-)on, by, etc.:–about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-)by (+ all means), for (… sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-)in(-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-)on, (open-)ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, (speedi-)ly, X that, X there(-in, -on), through(-out), (un-)to(-ward), under, when, where(-with), while, with(-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) preposition.

     

    1223
    dia
    dia
    dee-ah’
    a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through (in very wide applications, local, causal, or occasional):--after, always, among, at, to avoid, because of (that), briefly, by, for (cause) … fore, from, in, by occasion of, of, by reason of, for sake, that, thereby, therefore, X though, through(-out), to, wherefore, with (-in). In composition it retains the same general importance.

     

    1519
    eiV
    eis
    ice
    a primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases:–(abundant-)ly, against, among, as, at, (back-)ward, before, by, concerning, + continual, + far more exceeding, for (intent, purpose), fore, + forth, in (among, at, unto, -so much that, -to), to the intent that, + of one mind, + never, of, (up-)on, + perish, + set at one again, (so) that, therefore(-unto), throughout, til, to (be, the end, -ward), (here-)until(-to), …ward, (where-)fore, with. Often used in composition with the same general import, but only with verbs (etc.) expressing motion (literally or figuratively).

     

    VERSION GENE AND JODI  ?????

    IF you remove the “by him” and you adopt  the”for him” or “for the purpose of him”

    we have

    1:16 For “for  him” were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers:

    all things were created for him, and for him

    1:17 And he is before all things, and for him all things consist.

    Don’t you think there is something wrong?

     

    Especially 

    “all things were created for him, and for him  “

    Please make an effort to review this

    For me I stick to the King James version…

     

     

     

    #863254
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    You can’t take a passage and put meaning to it that is directly against other passages. 

    Luke 42:2 And Jesus said unto him,Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee. 43 And immediately he received his sight, and followed him, glorifying God: and all the people, when they saw it, gave praise unto God.

    Jesus’s works were not his, these people gave praise unto who it was due, God.

    Luke 19:37 And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen; 38 Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest. 

    1 Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

    John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the TRUE worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her,I that speak unto thee am he.

    John 20:17 “Don’t cling to Me,” Jesus told her, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to My brothers and tell them that I am ascending to My Father and your Father to My God and your God.”

    Matt 22:37 Jesus said unto him,Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment.

    Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him,The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is ONE Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

    Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

    Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. 37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. 38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him. 

    Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 

    LU, YOU ARE NOT LISTENING AT ALL TO THE WORD OF THE PROPHET JESUS. His God is OUR God and His Father is our Father, and he says TRUE WORSHIPERS WORSHIP THE FATHER, he says that the Lord OUR God is ONE Lord. He is the Messiah, he is the prophet who was sent so that we may believe in the Lord our God who is ONE Lord. 

    We are to praise and worship the Father our Lord God who is One Lord for all His works.

    Jesus’s resurrection is to the PRAISE of our heavenly Father. Thomas when he realized Jesus was raised from the dead he PRAISED the Father, he was not calling Jesus his Lord and his God, otherwise he would be a total fool not having heard or believed anything that Jesus taught him. 

    THOMAS BELIEVES that the Father is true, that the Father raised up Jesus from the dead, and when he realizes such is true he gives praise unto Jesus’s God and his God, who is ONE lord.

    John 20:27 Then Jesus said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and look at My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Stop doubting and believe.” 28 Thomas replied,My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

     

    #863255
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi,

    You said: LU, Jesus was making the point that without his God he is nothing.

    That is so far from reality.

    The Father and the Son do nothing apart from each other. Together they can do everything needed.

    #863256
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi,

    You probably won’t like this verse either:

    1 Cor 11:23

    For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread;

    Did you notice the article “the” as in “the Lord” there, not “a lord” as you want to believe.

    #863257
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi,

    You probably won’t like this verse either:

    Screen Shot 2020-04-21 at 5.12.07 PM

    Luke 1

    42In a loud voice she exclaimed, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 43And why am I so honored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44For as soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy.…

    Literally translated “of the Lord of me.

    Did you notice the article “the” as in “the Lord” there, not “a lord” as you want to falsely teach.

    #863258
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    How many more verses do you want to see before you will admit that you have incorrectly been calling Jesus “a lord” and not “the Lord?” I could go on and on.

    Mark 16:19

    So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.

    Did you notice the article “the” as in “the Lord” there too, not “a lord” as you want to falsely teach.

    #863259
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi Berean,

    I have already explained to you that what you say that we are saying is wrong.

    YOU: “all things were created for him, and for him”

    ME: That is not what Gene and I say.

    We say that all things were created DIA –by reason of him, and for him.

    18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

    Berean, without the man who shed his blood there is no peace, there is no life, without him nothing would have been made by our Father, the Lord our God who is ONE Lord.

    YHWH says He created all things alone, by himself and He gives you the reason why He created it (Isaiah 44)! His promise before the world began was for man to obtain eternal life. He likewise tells you that from the beginning He planned to have a man come and execute that purpose.

    Berean please explain Isaiah’s word of God where you have YHWH saying that He created all things and then immediately talks about calling a man to righteousness for to execute His purpose (Isaiah 42 and 45)

    All things were created FOR him it says, and the him who we see receive it is a SON OF MAN, can you explain that? 

    #863260
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    Interesting as I see you not addressing the many scriptures I give!

    YOU:

    Hi Jodi,

    How many more verses do you want to see before you will admit that you have incorrectly been calling Jesus “a lord” and not “the Lord?” I could go on and on.

    Mark 16:19

    So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.

    Did you notice the article “the” as in “the Lord” there too, not “a lord” as you want to falsely teach.

    ME: Um this is silly LU.

    Falsely teach what exactly according to this specific passage?

    I don’t treat “the” in that passage any different then I treat “the” in the below passages. 

    13 Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.

    16 Now the priest of Midian had seven daughters: and they came and drew water, and filled the troughs to water their father’s flock.

    48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,

    31 But the king of Syria commanded his thirty and two captains that had rule over his chariots, saying, Fight neither with small nor great, save only with the king of Israel.

    LU here are some passages again,

    John 20:17 “Don’t cling to Me,” Jesus told her, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to My brothers and tell them that I am ascending to My Father and your Father to My God and your God.

    Matt 22:37 Jesus said unto him,Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment.

    Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him,The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is ONE Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

    Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

    LU, JESUS is NOT THE LORD GOD who is ONE LORD, he is the son of David who RECEIVES, FROM THE LORD GOD who is ONE LORD, the throne of his father David. 

    Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. 37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. 38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him

    Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

    LU, the prophet IS NOT the Lord our God who is ONE Lord, he is a man raised up from among brethren by the Lord our God who is ONE Lord.

    Please speak directly of these passages.

     

     

     

    #863261
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    Isaiah 50:10 Who is among you that feareth the LORD, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the LORD, and stay upon his God.

    Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles….4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

    Exodus 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, YHWH God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

    Mark 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

    29 And Jesus answered him,The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord OUR God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment….

    ….32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: 33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. 34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him,Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

    The SERVANT of YHWH is not YHWH. The name of the servant is not YHWH, it’s Jesus, and Jesus says that his God and our God is ONE lord. Jesus doesn’t say “I” am  or “we” are the Lord our God who is one Lord. His reference to the Lord our God who is one Lord, is not him giving reference to himself, he is speaking of his Father and our Father.

     

    #863262
    Jodi
    Participant

    Hi LU,

    ME: LU, Jesus was making the point that without his God he is nothing.

    YOU: That is so far from reality.

    The Father and the Son do nothing apart from each other. Together they can do everything needed.

    ME: It is obviously far from reality in your own mind but it is INDEED the VERY REALITY of scripture and that of Jesus’s OWN MIND. 

    John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them,Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

    John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

    LU all things are according to the Father’s will and all things are according to the Father’s Spirit, all the powers and wisdom thereof.

    Israel was set free by our Father making Moses a god unto Pharaoh where Moses had our Father’s Spirit upon him to perform our Father’s will. They were set free but it was not lasting.

    All nations of people are set free by our Father making Jesus a god where he received  all of our Father’s Spirit and power dwelling upon him for the reason to perform our Father’s will.

    All things are according to the will of our Father and by the power and wisdom of His Almighty Spirit.

    Jesus is NOT that Spirit nor is he the Lord our God, who is ONE Lord.  Jesus IS the Son of Man returning in the glory of our Father where he will complete the Father’s will by having the Father’s Spirit and powers therein upon him.

    LU, YHWH our heavenly Father doesn’t even have Jesus judge by his own eyes and ears.

    Everything that was determined that needed to be done in order to bring forth our Father’s purpose was CAUSED by the Father.

    Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because HE hath appointed a day, in the which HE will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained whereof HE hath given assurance unto all men, in that HE hath raised him from the dead. 32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.

    LU, the God who made the world an all things therein who is Lord of heaven and earth DOES NOT NEED ANYTHING.

    Jesus and all brethren certainly NEED this God though. Jesus needed to be ordained by this God, Jesus needed to be raised from the dead by this God, and Jesus needed to receive the promised Spirit of this God, which is his God and our God, which is the Lord our God who is ONE Lord

    #863267
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Jodi,

    You said: the Lord OUR God is ONE Lord

    You say that over and over but where does it say that specifically in the Bible in the original language and what is the original word that was translated as “Lord?” It seems that you will find out that your understanding of this is but sand and that you have been building a sand castle that is about to get washed away.

    Hopeful, LU

    #863268
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Jodi,

    You asked: Falsely teach what exactly according to this specific passage?

    I am pointing out to you that you believe that Jesus is “a” Lord but those verses that I put up call Jesus “the” Lord. Can you call Jesus “the” Lord?

    #863270
    Berean
    Participant

     

    Hi Jodi

    You

    Hi Berean,

    I have already explained to you that what you say that we are saying is wrong.

    YOU: “all things were created for him, and for him”

    ME: That is not what Gene and I say.

    We say that all things were created DIA –by reason of him, and for him.

     

    Me

    1:16 FOR BY(EN) HIM WERE ALL THINGS CREATED…

    the beginning of verse 16, there is no “dia” but “en”
    And “en” doesn’t mean “by reason of”

     

    1722
    en
    en
    en
    a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between eiV – eis 1519 and 1537); “in,” at, (up-)on, by, etc.:–about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-)by (+ all means), for (… sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-)in(-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-)on, (open-)ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, (speedi-)ly, X that, X there(-in, -on), through(-out), (un-)to(-ward), under, when, where(-with), while, with(-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) preposition

     

    ALSO END OF VERSE 17

    kai ta panta en autw sunesthken  =  and by him all things consist.

    IF YOU PUT    ” FOR HIM”  all things consist

    it doesn’t make sense (to me)

     

     

     

     

     

     

    #863271
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    LU….the word “the” , is a definite artical, specific to something, that is correct,  but not to the exclusion of others,  for instance we could say , “the mechanic “,  talking about a paticular person, but not exclusive to all the others, because we know there are many mechanics.

    There are many lords “adoni” but only one “adonia” ( Almighty God) . 

    What do you do with this , “the LORD (ADONAI) said unto my lord (adoni ) sit on my right hand until I  (ADONAI) make your enimies your foot stool”.  King David it appears had a LORD “ALMIGHTY GOD”, and a human ruler over him the lord.  They were not the same person, that should be obvious to anyone who reads it.

    Not to even mention Jesus himself recites the Shama,  “the LORD “our” GOD is “one” LORD”,   Did you notice he said “our” God , that included him also.  

    LU…..Jesus had a GOD, and it certanly was not himself.  Do you actually think he was praying to himself when he prayed ?  When he told us to say in prayer, “our” Father, who is in heaven ,  do you think he wasn’t speaking of himself also?  When Jesus said “my God, my God , have you forsaken me”,  do you actually believe he was talking to himself?

    If you and other here can’t see Jesus as a ordinary flesh born human being who God the Father raised up from the tribe of Juda, from the loins of King David, a man he who was prophesied and  ordained to come,  and put his Anointing Spirit  on him , and told him the words to speak to us,  then you simply are not believing in the true Jesus of scriptures. The Jesus that “all” the prophets prophesied about, then you simply are not believing in the true  Jesus of scriptures . IMO.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

     

     

    #863273
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hi Gene and Jodi,

    You quote the Shema incorrectly which is making much of the problem with your understanding. I’m gonna try to help you but I would like you to acknowledge that you have been quoting it incorrectly. It is not your fault since several translations also translate it incorrectly. Here it is:

    Hear, Israel: Yahweh is our God; Yahweh is one

    Here it is in the original language:

    Screen Shot 2020-04-22 at 11.36.50 AM

    https://biblehub.com/text/deuteronomy/6-4.htm

    Btw, I believe the one YHWH expresses himself as a father AND a son, two distinct persons. The father is God to his son since the father gave of himself to the son and the son received what the father gave. Nevertheless, the Son is YHWH every bit as much as the Father is YHWH, they are ONE. YHWH is ONE, a unity. The Father is our one true God together (not seperatly) with the Son and their united Spirit. The Father and the Son do nothing of their own accord but can do everything necessary together.

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