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Hi Gene
This is what Thayer says about this word BFORE.
Thayer’s Greek LexiconSTRONGS NT 4250: πρίν
πρίν ((according to Curtius, § 380 comparitive προιον, προιν, πρίν)), as in Greek writings from Homer down:
1. an adverb previously,formerly (cf.πάλαι, 1): 3Macc. 5:28 3Macc. 6:4, 31; but never so in the N. T.
2. with the force of a conjunction, before, before that: with an accusative and aorist infinitive of things past (cf. Winers Grammar, § 44, 6 at the end; Buttmann, § 142, 3); πρίν Ἀβραάμ γενέσθαι, before Abraham existed, came into being, John 8: ok58; also πρίν ἤ (cf. Meyer on Matthew 1:18), Matthew 1:18; (Acts 7:2); with an aorist infinitive haying the force of the Latin future perfect, of things future (cf. Winer‘s Grammar, 332 (311)): πρίν ἀλέκτοραφωνῆσαι, before the cock shall have crowed, Matthew 26:34, 75; Mark 14:72; Luke 22:61; add, John 4:49; John 14:29; also πρίν ἤ, Mark 14:30; Acts 2:20 (where L TTr WH text omit ἤ); πρίν ἤ, preceded by a negative sentence (Buttmann, § 139, 35), with the aorist subjunctive having the force of a future perfect in Latin (Buttmann, 231 (199)), Luke 2:26 (R G L T Tr marginal reading, but WH brackets ἤ), and R G in Luke 22:34; πρίνἤ, followed by the optative of a thing as entertained in thought, Acts 25:16
Hope this helps. God bless 🙏
Anthony……haven’t you noticed that 30-40 of the translations you used don’t say “I was “born” before, ABRAHAM, shouldn’t that alone give you a clue that Jesus was not talking about his actual existence as a being.
Let me try to help you here, the Jew trusted that because they were decendents of Abraham they were a special, people , and they trusted in that fact to make them the true people of God. So the whole descussion was about the importance of their relationship to Abraham. Jesus knew that, so he simply told them that he was before ABRAHAM AND HE WAS MENTIONED IN SCRIPTURE BEFORE HIM by the way. Jesus was not descussing him being a “alive being” before Abraham. If that were the case he simply would have “I WAS “ALIVE” BEFORE ABRAHAM. The blind pharassies took it that way also as your do..
So again you people force the text to meet you perceptions, as they did, bad form Anthony.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene
Hi Gene
It is not necessary that Jesus say a certain phrase in order for the truth of who He is to be made clear. The issue is not if He speaks a certain sentence that we construct in present terms in order to satisfy our theological demands. The issue is what did Jesus say in the context and culture of the time in which He spoke.
To me Gene Jesus Christ played on the words I Am, and the Jewish people new what He was saying, He was saying that before Abraham exsisted (past tense), I Am (present tense) meaning that He was before Abraham and God.
Finally, we know that Jesus is God in flesh because the Bible tells us so.John 1:1, 14, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God . . . 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.”John 20:28-29, “Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”Heb. 1:8, “But of the Son He says, ‘Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.'”
God bless
YOU PREEXISTENERS move or try your best to “SEPERATE” Jesus from the rest of his brothers and sister, as his HUMAN EXISTENCE and MAKE UP IS CONCERENED, something Jesus sure did not do. You preach a different JESUS, different from his brothers and sisters, different FROM the rest of humanity . Your Jesus is not the Jesus of scripture. You efforts are to make a Jesus not human, a preexisting centinel being “MORPHED” into a human body, but truly not one of us humans. So you try in every way to make him different the we are as a human, who came into his “EXISTENCE’ the same way we did.
Gene,
With respect to scriptures, HEREUNDER Jesus PREEXISTED for sure.
Hebrews 1:2 In these days has spoken to us by his Son, whom he has appointed HEIR of all things, by whom also HE MADE THE WORLD. 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the figure of his substance, and UPHOLDING ALL THINGS by the word of his power, making purgation of sins, sits on the right hand of the majesty on high.
Hebrews 1:10 And: YOU in the beginning, O Lord, did FOUND the earth: and the works of YOUR hands are the heavens.
John17: 5 And now glorify you me, O Father, with yourself, with the glory WHICH I HAD,
BEFORE THE WORLD WAS, with you.
John 1:15 John bears witness of him, and cries out, saying: This was he of whom I spoke: He that shall come after me, is preferred before me:
BECAUSE HE WAS BEFORE ME.
John1:18 No man has seen God at any time:
THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON WHO
IS IN THE BOSOM OF THE FATHER., he has declared him.
John 3:13 And no man has ascended into heaven,
BUT HE THAT DESCENDED FROM HEAVEN, the Son of man
WHO IS IN HEAVEN.
John6:29 Jesus answered, and said to them: This is the work of God, that you believe in him
WHOM HE HAS SENT.
John6:38 Because I CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, not to do my own will, but the will of him
THAT SENT ME.
John 6:46 Not that any man has seen the Father;
BUT HE WHO IS OF GOD, he has seen the Father.
John6:62 If then you shall see the Son of Man ascend up
WHERE HE WAS BEFORE?
John8:58 Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you,
BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS MADE, I AM.More to come in the next post
Peace and love in Christ Jesus
Gene you said:
You preach a different JESUS, different from his brothers and sisters, different FROM the rest of humanity.
Philippians 2:Who being in the FORM OF GOD, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Jesus in the above PREEXISTED IN THE FORM OF GOD, and also He would not be a robber to consider Himself EQUAL TO GOD.
ORDINARY HUMAN BEING HASN’T GOT THE ABOVE CREDENTIALS.
Jesus Himself made Christians ONLY TEMPLES OF GOD.
Now read hereunder:
7But EMPTIED himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man. 8He humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross.
Thus in respect of the scriptures above, thou Jesus, without being a robber, considered himself equal to God, nevertheless
HE EMPTIED HIMSELF SIMPLY TO BE IN ALL THINGS LIKE MEN. BUT REFLECT
LIKE MEN! NOT IN THE SAME ESSENCE OF THE AUTHENTIC SATANIC CURSED MEN.
JESUS HUMBLED HIMSELF FOR OUR SAKE, OBEYED HIS FATHER, AND DIED. INNOCENTLY IN EVERY SENSE.
1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a
MYSTERY, a wisdom which is
HIDDEN, which GOD ORDAINED
BEFORE THE WORLD, unto
OUR GLORY:
Now reflect on the above, the fact GENERALLY SPEAKING, that JESUS’ ENTIRE DIVINE PROCESS, WAS
A MYSTERY, HIDDEN AND ORDAINED BEFORE THE WORLD, SIMPLY FOR OUR GLORY!
DOESN’T THAT MAKE JESUS A UNIQUE EXTRAORDINARY HUMAN BEING, AND IN THE SAME TIME DEFINITELY
NOT A CURSED AUTHENTIC SATANIC HUMAN BEING? LIKE THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE?
More scripture hereunder:
John8:23 And he said to them:
YOU ARE FROM BENEATH, (definitely a reference to HELL, our origin AFTER WE REBELLED IN HEAVEN)
I AM FROM ABOVE. ( Definitely a reference to HEAVEN )
YOU ARE OF THIS WORLD, ( Definitely CURSED AND SATANIC)
I AM NOT OF THIS WORLD. ( JESUS HAS NOTHING OF THIS SATANIC WORLD) Asserted by Jesus in
John14: 30 I will not now speak many things with you. For the prince of this world cometh, and
IN ME HAS NOTHING.
Now according to you
IS JESUS AN ORDINARY AUTHENTIC CURSED SATANIC HUMAN BEING?
To the last scripture:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew; for if they had known it, they would never have crucified the Lord of glory.
WOW! WOW! AND WOW!
THEY CRUCIFIED NOT AN ORDINARY AUTHENTIC CURSED SATANIC HUMAN CRIMINAL BEING. BUT THEY CRUCIFIED
THE LORD OF GLORY!
WHAT A MAN!
Gene, YOU SAIS:
You preach a different JESUS, different from his brothers and sisters, different FROM the rest of humanity.
Are you still with your mentality that Jesus is not different from the rest of humanity?
Jesus was in all things LIKE HIS BRETHREN, but NOT AN AUTHENTIC SATANIC CURSED HUMAN BEING LIKE ADAM AFTER HE SINNED. OK?
Not even conceived, born, and died. LIKE HUMANS DO.
More to come in the next post.
Peace and love in Christ Jesus
YOU PREEXISTENERS move or try your best to “SEPERATE” Jesus from the rest of his brothers and sister,
That is simply not true. I have no agenda as you appear to have because I accept these scriptures as they are written without adding or taking away. My guess is you are the one with the agenda because you have to add words to derive your understanding. It is as simple as that and very obvious to anyone reading this topic.
In short, you are the one with a motive.
T8…..My motive is the truth, nothing more, that was my motive before I ever became a believer in Jesus , Many many years ago. No your motive is to not except the truth, and so you kick off those who disagree with your views .
I am not the one forcing text to say what it does not “specifically” say . You read into scriptures like so many do, never think what Jesus said, like him not speaking clearly unto the aver person, that hearing they perceive not, hearing they hear not.
Is that not what he told his apostles, “it has been give you to understand the things of the kingdom , but to the rest in parables , that hearing they hear not seening they see not, and he did not speak unto them without parable language. Like Nick told you you need to dig deeper.
Peace and love to you and yours. …….gene
Carmel…..You quoted a scripture from Php 2:6., bear with me and I will show you your error.
When it says he existed in the “form” of God, it should read figuratively like this , “he being, or existing with the “nature” of God” would be more accurate, why “nature” because he had the Holy spirit in him, that is to say GOD THE FATHER’S NATURE was “in” him, just as all who have the anointing spirit of God the Father in them also have the Natura of God “in” them to.
Now ask you self “when” did he exist with that Spirit nature, what time does it protan to, is it not, when he was on this earth as a human being after he was anointed with the holy spirit?m yes it was, this has nothing to do with a preexisting Jesus before his berth on this earth as may false teachers supose.
What point was that scripture trying to bring out?, this , that when he existed on this earth with that nature of God, he did not try to “rob” God to make himself equal with GOD . He knew he was a man and not the God who was doing all those mircales and speaking throught him, therefore he humbled himself a became a servant of God. Jesus could have easely taken the credit for all the mircales done through him, robbing GOD OF GLORY. As Moses did at the waters of Meriba.
Thats the main teaching of that text. Imo it has nothing to with Jesus “being” equal with God at all. False christanity believes it show Jesus as equal with God, nothing could be further from the truth.
You cannot “seperate ” Jesus’ idenity from yourself , he is one of us humans, we are his brothers and sisters, he is a son of man. A son of God also just as we are. If you can’t see that concerning JESUS, THEN you are worshiping the wrong Jesus, Remember what he said ,”many shall come in my name, saying I am, and decieve many. Many means most especially today.
It’s all about how you see Jesus, that what all the deception is about.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene
Hi Gene
Those that seek will find. Those that do not seek will instead end up deluded. God sends strong delusion to those that reject the truth because they rejected the truth and thus they choose another way but the truth.
So is God the one deluding them? No, they delude themselves with their dishonest search for truth.
Think about this Gene, you all ways try to make scriptures what you want them to say, by twisting and adding and taken away, some of scripturers you don’t even use, because they out right go against your owe doctrine. You need to stop doing that, humble yourself and except scriptures as they read.
God bless.
Gene, I seriously doubt that your motive is truth. A true seeker who believes in Jesus Christ believes scripture and derives doctrine from there. They don’t start with doctrine and add or takeaway from scripture to reinforce their doctrine.
kick off those who disagree with your views .
Are you going to be the new false accuser Gene? I hope not.
I know in my own heart I do not kick people off for difference of opinion, never have and probably never will.
People get kicked off here for constant unrepentant false accusations, bearing false witness, spam, inappropriate contact, and flooding the topics with the same thing not related to the topic at hand. See the rules if you have any doubts.
And you just proved to me that if you can be wrong in your judgement in this matter, that you can be wrong in other things you say. While I already believe you are wrong in your doctrine being discussed here, your false accusation is but another sign to me that reinforces to me your tendencies toward error.
I think you need ask yourself how this happened.
Hi Gene
Philippians 2:Who being in the FORM OF GOD, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.
You said: When it says he existed in the “form” of God, it should read figuratively like this , “he being, or existing with the “nature” of God” would be more accurate, why “nature” because he had the Holy spirit in him, that is to say GOD THE FATHER’S NATURE was “in” him,
Me: This isn’t figuratively and it doesn’t read like that Gene, Nature and form. Yes Jesus Christ has the nature of God and He has the nature of man. To me this two separate nature’s the human nature is so fused with the Divine nature that we only see one. If they where separate I would have to choose which one He was speaking or acting in, that’s how I see the nature’s. Like Bishop Cyril of Alexandria, one person, one nature. The was extra on the nature’s.
God bless
Anthony……You can see it as you wish, but to me the nature of God is given to those who are the sons of God, and that is why we are called the sons of God, and call him our father.
Her is one “again” for you, see where you stand.
1 Ti 2-5…..For this is good and exceptable in the sight of GOD our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is ONE GOD, and ONE MEDIATOR between GOD and men, The (MAN) Christ Jesus.
John 17:3….and this is life eternal, that they might know you, the (ONLY) TRUE GOD, and Jesus the anointed , whom you have sent.
Tell me Anthony do you see the words, the God Jesus mentioned anywhere there?
Now do you even know what is the first commandment? And Do you believe it?, do you truly believe it?
I could give you all kinds of scriptures that clearly prove Jesus is not a God of anyki n d never was and never will be, but whats the purpose I have posted many many of them and you people still reject them.
Anthony this is a basic teaching, be like the Berean’s they searched the scriptures to see if what they heard was true or not, now ask yourself what scriptures did they search, it could not have been the new testement becaue it was not available then, so it was the old testement they were searching to conferm what they were being told, right? Do the same thing and if what you read in the new testement it does not match what is written in the old testement , then that should cause you some major concern. And please don’t kid your self about translations, because there are many grammatical errors in them. In fact one scholar, MILL’S said there were over 20, 000, grammatical erros in the Greek texts.
You rely to much on what modern traditions teach, big mistake Anthony.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene
Hi Gene
You said: but to me the nature of God is given to those who are the sons of God,
Me: my point was you just can’t take scripture and change it, first you made it figuratively , then you changed the word form into nature. I also see that “we” get the divine nature when we get saved. The thing here is this, I can hear you now claiming that Jesus Christ is a son of God just like us, just a man,right. There a different’s Jesus Christ started out with the Divine Nature and we didn’t can you see the difference, see the human nature had fuse into the the Divine nature and they became one. See we started out with the human nature and the Divine nature, is waiting for us to die to the old man. So we can be one. Progressive. Jesus Christ is the only Begotten Son, The Messiah He started out with the Divine nature because He always had it, before the foundation of the world. Him and His Father are one and we will be one with them in the fullness of time.
God bless
Philippians 2:6 Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man.
Gene you said:
When it says he existed in the “form” of God, it should read figuratively like this, “he being, or existing with the “nature” of God” would be more accurate,
Gene, In the next verse, it says
Jesus EMPTIED HIMSELF than he was born
ONLY IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN! He didn’t empty Himself and became AN AUTHENTIC SATANIC CURSED MAN, like all of humanity ESPECIALLY THE GENTILES, THE PAGANS, US.
Now If Jesus EMPTIED HIMSELF before he was born, WHERE WAS HE? WHAT WAS HE FILLED WITH? HOW DID HE EMPTY HIMSELF? WHAT PROCESS DID HE GO THROUGH IN ORDER TO EMPTY HIMSELF?
Jesus was born as a human being but ALL HEAVENLY. HE WAS NOT IN THE POSITION TO HAVE THE LEAST SPECK OF THE WORLD. NEVER MIND ONE OF US!
Otherwise, He would not have been justified as the Messiah. The fact that HE PURCHASED HUMANITY BY HIS OWN FLESH BODY, UNIQUE. Well clear in
John8:23 And he said to them:
YOU ARE FROM BENEATH, (definitely, a reference to HELL, our origin AFTER WE REBELLED IN HEAVEN)
I AM FROM ABOVE. ( Definitely a reference to GOD)
YOU ARE OF THIS WORLD, ( Definitely CURSED AND SATANIC)
I AM NOT OF THIS WORLD. ( JESUS HAS NOTHING OF THIS SATANIC WORLD) Asserted by Jesus in
John14:30 I will not now speak many things with you. For the prince of this world comes, and
IN ME HE HAS NOTHING.
In the above Jesus, Himself declared that Satan has nothing in Him. This means that since the entire world was satanic, JESUS HAD NOTHING OF THE WORLD. THE FACT THAT HE PURCHASED AND SAVED THE WORLD BY HIS OWN BLOOD AS A RANSOM.
IN EXCHANGE FOR OURS, Simply because HE HAD NOTHING OF OURS.
Read Peter hereunder:
1Peter 2:9But you are a chosen generation, a kingly priesthood, a holy nation,
A PURCHASED PEOPLE:
Ok? I REPEAT he purchased humanity simply because He was not an authentic HUMAN, ONE OF US, satanic and cursed.
1 Peter 2:10WHO IN TIME PAST WERE NOT A PEOPLE: but are now the people of God. Who had not obtained mercy; but now have obtained mercy.
In the above it is evidently clear that the gentiles WERE NOT EVEN A PEOPLE, SIMPLY DEVILS IN FLESH.
Jesus was a PERFECT PARADOX!
IN ONE INSTANT:
HE WAS A MAN, AND HE WAS NOT.
HE WAS CONCEIVED AND HE WAS NOT.
HE WAS BORN AND HE WAS NOT.
HE DIED, AND HE DIED NOT! The fact that He transformed DEATH into LIFE.
When Jesus was dead on the cross HE TOOK HOLD OF THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE,
SATANIC! OF WHICH HE HAD NOT A SPECK OF IT! NEVER MIND ONE OF IT.
AND JUSTIFIED HIMSELF THE SOLE SOVEREIGN IN ALL SOULS ETERNALLY.
John8:35 Now the servant ( SATAN) abides not in the house( SOUL) forever; but the son(JESUS) abides FOREVER.
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Some good points being raised here. For me, once the following point is understood, scripture has zero conflicts as other views on Jesus do.
In identity, there is one God the Father, and one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ. In nature, there are many beings with divine nature or godly nature.
Theos can apply to God or God’s nature. Context will help determine which, and the definite article is a strong indicator. For example, Jesus said, ‘ye are theos’ . He didn’t say you are God, but essentially gods.
On the the otherhand, ‘THE’ God is talking about the Father if it is referencing the true God.
Generally speaking, in Greek, the definite article identifies and the lack of one qualifies. There are exceptions depending on sentence structure. It kinda works like that in English too. Think about the difference between ‘the man’ and ‘man’ . The first is talking about a specific person or identity while the latter talks about nature. Adam is a person in scripture and in Greek the structure is ‘the adam’ (we use a capital instead of the definite articke). But Eve is adam, that is she is not her husband but is in nature part of mankind and the Word for man or mankind is ‘adam’.
To all……MAN WHAT YOU PEOPLE GO THROUGH, TRYING TO MAKE PIECES FIT YOUR RENDITIONS. But forcing pieces into places they don’t fit only further destorts the real picture.
Jesus never existed till he was born on this earth by his mother, Mary as a human being, The holy spirit existed for ever, and came into Jesus at the Jordan river when he was around thirity years old, it was not in him till then, that is when the word who is GOD the Father came to be with the Flesh man Jesus. Just as Jesus said “the Father is “IN” ME, he never said he was the Father that was “in”him, only false christianity say that. Making Jesus t h e Father that was “IN” HIM , IS idolatry.
What did JOHN SAY “LITTLE CHILDERN KEEP YOURSELVES FROM IDOLS”.
Peace and love to you and yours. …..gene
Reading scripture as it is written is forcing nothing Gene. Rather adding words like you and Jodi do is forcing your view. Simple as that.
that is when the word who is GOD the Father came to be with the Flesh man Jesus.
It is written the the Word was with God in the beginning. I believe that because it is written and it compliments the other scriptures we quote.
You have an almost zero chance of convincing us of your view because it means you need to add words to lots of scriptures when I’m not even willing to alter one scripture.
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