August 1, 2004 at 8:22 am #3724
Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 30 2004,21:35) Afterall, we know Jesus WAS good
Jesus is not good only God is. That means that Jesus is not the source of good, but the recipent of it. All that he has that is good is given to him by God his Father. He was simply acknowledging that it is God who has done all that they saw Jesus do. He also said that I only do what the Father does, so he is trying to give all the glory that men gave to him, to God his Father. He was simply acknowledging where his good came from. Remember Jesus said, “but not my will but your will”. So he has a will that is not Gods will. But he chooses Gods will with his will so they are the same in that they agree and are in alignment. He taught and led by example.
We become good ourselves when that which God gives us becomes our character and nature. Then in that sense we are good. We have recieved Gods good things and they have moulded and shaped us closer to his perfect image. But even then it is God who gets the glory for this.August 1, 2004 at 6:58 pm #3725Is 1:18Member
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Quote (t8 @ Aug. 01 2004,03:22) Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 30 2004,21:35) Afterall, we know Jesus WAS good
Jesus is not good only God is. That means that Jesus is not the source of good, but the recipent of it. All that he has that is good is given to him by God his Father.
Why must you be the source of all that is good to be good? If Jesus was tempted in every way we are, yet without sin (Heb 4:15) then he must be considered good. Why not credit Him for this?August 2, 2004 at 6:55 am #3726
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Aug. 02 2004,08:58) Why must you be the source of all that is good to be good? If Jesus was tempted in every way we are, yet without sin (Heb 4:15) then he must be considered good. Why not credit Him for this?
I did that in the last part of the post.
We become good ourselves when that which God gives us becomes our character and nature. Then in that sense we are good. We have recieved Gods good things and they have moulded and shaped us closer to his perfect image. But even then it is God who gets the glory for this.”
Jesus credit lies in the fact that he does his Fathers will. The Father takes credit for all good. Same for us. Our only credit is obedience to God. That is the only thing that we really do that has value. Once we have decided to serve God, then it is just a matter of doing what he says. As it is written, “that which is not of faith is sin”.
In a loud voice they sang: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!”
The world takes credit for talents, looks and other gifts, but these things are given to us for free. What credit is it really if you are intelligent or the best soccer player in the world. After all these talents are given. It is what you decide to do with those talents that counts. Will we use them for God or ourselves?
Jesus is the firstborn of all creation and the image of God. But is that a credit to him or God. Jesus credit is his servitude toward God and from that obedience God bestows upon him all the honour that God gives him.
Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered.
“Not my will, but your will.”
I try to use these words when I pray to God for things, after all that is what Jesus did.August 4, 2004 at 10:53 pm #3727
You say Jesus is “firstborn of all creation” I am sure you did not quite mean that.
Jesus is the only “BEGOTTEN” Son .He was not created but begotten-like from like. .Ps 2.Heb 1.5 and 5.5 etc
He was only BORN when he was born of Mary in Bethlehem.
” For today in the City of David there has been BORN for you a saviour,who is Christ the Lord”Lk2 .11.
” And when He again brings the firstborn into the world..”Heb 1.6
He is also “The FIRSTBORN from the Dead” as the first to be resurrected. Coll 1.18
Do you agree?August 5, 2004 at 6:33 am #3728
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,
The Son is like God who cannot be seen. He was his Son before anything was made.
Although the last version probably takes a lot of licence with it's interpretation, it is what I believe.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
I personally believe that Jesus was begotten of God before creation and God created all things through him and for him. We (creation) were made in God's image; from God through Christ.
Jesus Christ is the firstborn and the only one to come directly from the Father.
1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
I believe that this line of authority is all the source lineage.
i.e. the woman came from man. Man came from Christ and Christ came from God.
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.
No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.
Tatian (165 A.D)
“For just as from one torch many fires are lighted, but the light of the first torch is not lessened by the kindling of many torches, so the Word, coming forth from the Word-Power of the Father, has not divested of the Word-Power Him who begat Him”.August 5, 2004 at 7:06 am #3729
I agree it is written thus and it is interesting that Coll 1.15 is the only use of the term “.the firstborn of all creatures.” for Jesus. in the Bible.
Coll 1.18″..the firstborn of the dead.”
Rev 1.5 “..the firstborn from the dead and ruler of the kings of Earth”
Heb 12.23 ” No, you have drawn near to Mount Zion and the City of the Living God,the heavenly angels in festal gathering, to the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, to God the Judge of all ,to the spirits of just men made perfect ,to Jesus ..”
The word used in all the above scriptures is the same and different to the word “begotten” which appears 10 times in relationship to Jesus.
I am puzzled and expect there will be a deeper reason for this lone scripture use. Anyone else know?August 5, 2004 at 7:10 am #3730
To me these 2 versions say different things.
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
One version says that Jesus is of creation and the other says that he is over it. I think the NIV is the more accurate when we look at the context of other scriptures about Christ.August 5, 2004 at 7:20 am #3731
Yes.October 6, 2004 at 9:31 pm #3732
If you were selling your house and arranged for a buyer to give you a downpayment and he gave you a blank sheet of paper instead would the sale go through? No way.
God has made us the same sort of promise. And He is the REAL DEAL.
2 Cor1.21f ” Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God ,WHO ALSO SEALED US AND GAVE US THE SPIRIT IN OUR HEARTS AS A PLEDGE.”
Eph 1.13″ ..-having also believed ,you were SEALED IN HIM WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE, WHO IS GIVEN AS A PLEDGE OF OUR INHERITANCE , WITH A VIEW TO THE REDEMPTION OF GOD'S OWN POSSESSION, TO THE PRAISE OF HIS GLORY”
1Jn 4 13″ By this we know that we abide in Him and he in us
BECAUSE HE HAS GIVEN US OF HIS SPIRIT”
No wonder Paul was able to say to the believers in Acts 19
” Did you receive the holy Spirit when you believed ?” He expected them to have experienced a new power and life.
That promise was given by Jesus in Jn 14-17. He said the Holy Spirit would teach us and remind of the words of Jesus and would comfort us and would tell us of things in the future.
Do we experience these things? Do scriptures come to mind when needed and the whole picture fit together in harmony?Does comfort come when we are stressed and struggling?
If not do not hesitate to remind the Father of His promised gift and expect an answer.October 22, 2004 at 8:35 am #3733
I Cor 12.12f ” The body is one and has many members,but all the members,many though they are ,are one body.It was in one Spirit that all of us, whether Jew or Greek, slave or free
were baptised into one body. All of us have been given to drink of the one Spirit”
This is the living church ,the Body of Christ on earth. Entry demands baptism in water and the Spirit. Jesus said in
Jn 3.5″ I solemnly assure you, no one can enter into God's kingdom without being begotten of water and the Spirit”
Rom 8 .9″..If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ ,he does not belong to Christ. If Christ is in you the body is dead because of sin, while the spirit lives because of justice. If the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you , then he who raised Christ from the dead will bring your mortal bodies to life also, through his Spirit dwelling in you.”
Mk 16.17 “Signs like this will follow those who have professed their faith. They will use My Name to expel demons, they will speak entirely new languages, they will be able to handle serpents, they will be able to drink deadly poison without harm, and the sick upon whom they lay their hands will recover”
Acts 2 38″..then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. It was to you and your children that the promise was made, and to all those still far off whom the Lord calls”
THe Spirit is still available to God's children.
The Spirit is essential to salvation .
The Spirit is essential if we are to be in the first resurrection
The Spirit does God's works of power still.October 23, 2004 at 6:15 pm #4318
As a perfect vessel for the Spirit of God only Jesus fully expressed the nature and abilities of God. Only he showed all the Fruits and all the Gifts of the Spirit. These fruits and gifts are the heart and hands of God on earth, the grace of God. In him the fullness of deity resided in bodily form.
We have no record of Jesus praying in tongues but it is likely he did so when he sought his Father's will in prayer when he went alone into the country as this gift is used to upbuild and pray beyond our understanding for our needs.
The other vessels ,the disciples and apostles, showed all of these graces in varying levels of beauty as they ,together formed the body of Christ on earth.
Peter showed enormous faith and healing ability. He taught with wisdom and led by example. He laid hands on converts for them to receive the Spirit and pastored the flock. He understood the value of suffering and spoke of it ofen in his letters. But his knowledge had to be corrected by Paul.
John was the outstanding example of Love. He showed that perfect love drives out all fear as he rested his head on his master at the last supper and was the only disciple standing on Calvary when Jesus died. His books are full of the word love.
James fully understood truth and his book is simple and straight to the point with no messing around. He is the chilli sauce on the gospel with no compromise or favouritism.
Matthew, Mark and Luke showed the evidence of the Holy Spirit promise in Jn 14-16 of perfect recall of the words and actions of Jesus but no mention of healing or other powers.
Phillip listened to the Spirit and evangelised but did not lay on hands leaving that work to others.
Paul, the perfectionist Pharisee, strived mightly to express every work of God in truth and knowledge. But even he had difficulties relating to Barnabas and Mark at times as his tolerance was stretched.
None were complete as all needed the rest of the body to let the body function on earth as God had designed.November 1, 2004 at 6:43 pm #4361
The Father is never seen in scripture on earth because He is never on earth. His throne is in heaven.
The Holy Spirit is never seen in scripture in heaven. That is because the Spirit does not have a separate existence there. it is the Spirit of God that filled Jesus and God pours out a portion of on men as Peter quoted Joel in Acts 2.17f
The Spirit is one in men also and reveals the nature and will of God to men. All who receive this gift have different aspects and roles as only as one do they fulfill the work of the Body of Christ on earth. God's spirit teaches and can be grieved in us. God does not control our actions but can if we submit to His spirit and that is what he wants.[gal 5.25]November 5, 2004 at 12:22 pm #4384
When we are one with God and with regards to Jesus being one with his Father and them being in each other. Are we one in spirit or Spirit. Is it the Spirit that makes us one, or is it spirit as in unity of purpose that we are one?
God's Holy Spirit or unity of purpose? Perhaps unity of purpose can only be obtained in God's Spirit. After all the Church of God is made up of living stones filled with his Spirit.
1 Peter 2:5
you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.November 5, 2004 at 7:48 pm #4385
I love the building concept. We have our own building which rises on the foundation stone of Jesus[1 peter 2. 6-8], has deep foundations on the rock of the word [Mt 7 24]and has the virtues added as described in 2 Peter 1 .5-8.
It goes with the church building in Eph 2.20
” You form a building which rises on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone . Through him the whole structure is fitted together and takes shape as a holy temple in the Lord: in him you are being built into this temple to become a dwelling place for God in the Spirit”
Rev 21.9.f shows the New Jerusalem with the 12 apostles names written on the foundation stones as Jesus had told Peter in in mt 16.18.
Jeus prayed that we would be one as he is one with th Father in jn 17. That unity is in the Spirit and in devotion to the Word. But who is totally submitted to the Spirit? None of us. Who is also totally consecrated to the truth of the Word?Few of us. Those are the things that give us true unity but it has to be worked for too.
He also prayed that we would be guarded from the evil one whose mischief making could destroy and divide the church.November 6, 2004 at 9:46 pm #4413
An amazing book to read, giving revelation on the church is the The Shepherd of Hermas.
The Shepherd of Hermas was one of the most popular books produced in the early Church, and for a time it was frequently quoted and regarded as inspired.
The text of the Shepherd has not been well preserved. Only 3 incomplete Greek manuscripts and a number of small fragments have been discovered.
The book is definately the shepherd of Hermas's own words, but the interesting part is when he describes the vision given to him. The theme seems to be the understanding of the church as a building made by God.
This could lead to some interesting dialogue and we could start up a new discussion for it.
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