John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 18,261 through 18,280 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #803729
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    A number of people here have shown flawed thinking, It goes like this.

    If the word is an attribute of God, then the Word cannot be Jesus.
    If wisdom is an attribute of God, then Wisdom cannot be a pre-incarnate Jesus.

    Okay, so let’s look at truth. We know that is an attribute of God. But Jesus said he was THE Truth. Same for Life.

    It stands to reason that people are named after attributes and often the definite article can distinguish whether it is a person or not.

    I know a girl called ‘Grace’. Yes she really exists even though ‘grace’ is an attribute of God,

    Peter was a ‘rock’ or ‘stone’ and he really existed even though God is the Rock.

    Come on you guys, this is basic stuff. I shouldn’t have to teach such simple basic things to you.

    Even my five year old understands this.

    #803732
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    T8…..THE WORD OF GOD is not an atribute it is GOD and represents his totality , JUST AS YOUR WORDS ARE YOU, and represent you totality. That is not the same as using an atribute to describe a “aspect” of a person OR SOMETHING, like wisdom, which is a atribute that anyone can have. The name PETER WAS GIVEN, TO PETER because he exhibited an atribute of a rock, could be he was stubborn or hard headed or some other atribute he possessed, but PETER HIMSELF WAS NO ACTUAL ROCK AT ALL. JESUS BEING CALLED THE WORD OF GOD is also an atribute he has because he brings to us the words of GOD the FATHER. But he himself is not the source of those words he brings us, GOD the Father is the source of them and produced them in Jesus, VIA HIS SPIRIT, who spoke them to us, JUST THE SAME AS THE PROPHETS DID. IT WAS GOD THE FATHER SPEAKING TO US IN BOTH CASES, THROUGH THE PROPHETS AND JESUS CHRIST.

    YOU ARE TRYING TO MAKE GOD’S WORDS SEPERATE FROM GOD, BY SAYING JESUS IS ACTUALLY THE WORDS HE WAS SPEAKING TO US. JESUS NEVER SAID THAT , IN FACT HE SAID THE WORDS HE WAS SPEAKING WERE NOT “HIS” WORDS , BUT THE WORDS OF HIM THAT SENT HIM.

    Jesus was not sent from HEAVEN INTO THE WORLD, EXCEPT IN THE SENSE, IT WAS GOD THE FATHER WHO WAS IN HEAVEN WHO CAME INTO HIM AND LEAD HIM, HE WAS THE ONE WHO SENT JESUS FROM HIS EARTHELY DWELLING WHERE HE LIVED, OUT INTO THE WORLD, AFTER HE WAS BAPTIZED AND TESTED IN THE WILDERNESS, THEN HE WAS SENT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD, INTO THE WORLD TO PREACH THE GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

    peace and love to you and yours. …………gene

    #803733
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi t8.

    Jn17.18

    ‘As you sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world”

     

    So if the apostles were not pre existent beings why would you think the man Jesus was ?

    The Word was with God, not the man Jesus.

    #803737
    kerwin
    Participant

    Nick,

    Jesus is an over-comer because he always walked according to the Spirit and not to the flesh and so is revealed to be the Author of the faith. (Hebrews 12:2)

    It is said about those that walk according to the flesh, the old human, that “there is none righteous, no, not one” (Romans 3:10) but it is said about those that walk by the Spirit that they do not sin even though tempted as common to humans (Hebrews 4:15) because they are like God in true righteousness and holiness. (Ephesians 4:24)

    It is impossible to do all that is right without the Spirit but what is impossible with man, which is to say the flesh, is possible with God, whom works through his Spirit.

    #803739
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi KW,

    Yet you only have your dogma to support you.

    You have found no proof that Jesus was a divine being or was anointed prior to birth or at any other time before the Jordan.

     

    You stand alone against scripture

    #803741
    kerwin
    Participant

    t8,

    Other scripture teach us human is a human being conceived through a miracle of God, received the Spirit from God, born of a virgin, continued to live his mortality and afterwards continuously walking according to the Spirit, choosing to sacrifice himself in his mercy for those in darkness, resurrected by the power of the Spirit of holiness because he did not earn the wages of sin, ascending to heaven as a human to receive his reward from God and mediate the new covenant still as a human being.

    It is only hard to understand passages like the first chapter of John that those that lack knowledge or are corrupt misinterpret that are used to support claims that Jesus has ever been or is other than human.

    #803742
    kerwin
    Participant

    Nick,

    I am not claiming that Jesus has ever been other than a human being.

    I am claiming Jesus has always walked by the Spirit and not by the flesh and so became the Author of the new covenant. You should know this since the instruction of the new covenant is to put off old man that was buried with him in death and put on your new man whom lives by the Spirit and that arose from the grave in him. The new man who is created like God in true holiness and righteousness.

    The new covenant is not written on stone like the old one but it is instead written on the hearts and minds of believers and placed. Jesus was and is the first believer it was done with. God in his pleasure at Jesus’ faith appointed him to be the Christ before the world began.

    #803746
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi KW,

    Yes and your claims are not supported by scripture.

    You must be born again as Jesus was

    #803747
    kerwin
    Participant

    Nick,

    It does both.

    Isaiah 55:11Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    11
    so shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth:
    it shall not return unto me void,
    but it shall accomplish that which I please,
    and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

    As with his word so with his Spirit.

    He sends it one time to accomplish one thing he pleases and then sends it another time to accomplish another thing. It is the Spirit so he can sent it multiple places at the same time and/or the same place multiple times.

    You know this as you know that two believers at two different locations can receive the Spirit at exactly the same time while others at even more locations are walking by the same Spirit. You also know that the Advocate is a new thing because God said he was doing something new in putting his Law in his people and writing it on their hearts and that is what is and does by teaching. Jesus is the one he chose to be the first.

    • This reply was modified 10 years, 9 months ago by Admin.
    #803751
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi KW,

    Gal5

    “If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit”

     

    No man lives by the Spirit until he has been reborn from above

    #803753
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    T8…..THE WORD OF GOD is not an atribute it is GOD

    You deny that God has the logos within him then.

    Then you say he is all logos. Well he is also love. If he is 100% logos only, then how can he be love.

    Your argument appears to be flawed again.

    #803754
    kerwin
    Participant

    Nick,

    No one lives by the Spirit until he has been born again from above at that includes Jesus Christ.

    Jesus is a son of man because he was conceived and born of a woman and he is a son of God because he was conceived and born of the Spirit.

    He is the chief son of each, aka the Son, because he is the Christ.

    The old man walk by the flesh, aka the nature of fallen man, and the new man walks by the Spirit and so has a righteousness and holiness that is like God’s. Jesus had that righteousness and holiness before the Jordon.

    #803755
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi t8.

    Jn17.18

    ‘As you sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world”

    So if the apostles were not pre existent beings why would you think the man Jesus was ?

    The Word was with God, not the man Jesus.

    The point is that God sent his son into the world. That usually means he was the son and then was sent. That is the point I made. When I came into the world, I was not a son, but I was born from above and became an adopted son later in my life. And does being a son mean that you are a man? Are angels sons of God?

    #803756
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Other scripture teach us human is a human being conceived through a miracle of God, received the Spirit from God, born of a virgin, continued to live his mortality and afterwards continuously walking according to the Spirit, choosing to sacrifice himself in his mercy for those in darkness, resurrected by the power of the Spirit of holiness because he did not earn the wages of sin, ascending to heaven as a human to receive his reward from God and mediate the new covenant still as a human being.

    You also need to include that he existed in the form of God, emptied himself, then came in the flesh. Additionally, we know he is in the glory that he had with the Father, before the Cosmos. Is he back as an idea in God’s mind?

    #803758
    kerwin
    Participant

    t8,

    Philippians 2:5-7 is another passage that some have a hard time understanding. It contains a list of things Jesus always performed because the spirits of his mind were in the form of God. Because he did not see it as loot to become God’ equal he emptied himself of pride and became a servant of all and was he was always made be God in the in the likeness of humanity. The angels of God have the form of God in the same sense as do any the walk by the Spirit. In fact Paul was urging the Christians at Philippi to walk by the Spirit instead if by the flesh in Philippians 2 by using Jesus as an example.

    • This reply was modified 10 years, 9 months ago by Admin.
    #803761
    kerwin
    Participant

    T8,

    God planned for Jesus to be the Christ before Jesus was conceived by Mary. He had the whole plan laid out before it occurred he even told us of Judas and the thirty pieces of silver before the Betrayer was conceived in his mother’s womb.

    Romans 9:11-13Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    11 (for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

    The fact that God stated he hated Esau and loved Jacob before they were even born does not mean they existed before they were born. It seems John 17:5 is just another hard to understand passage of Scripture.

    #803764
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi t8,

    Indeed the Word was with God and was God.

    The Word, now known as Jesus Christ, existed in the form of God.

    \

    Then the Word was made flesh- in Jesus -and dwelled among us.

    #803765
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi t8,

    As jn 17 shows God sends all His sons into the world.

    That does not mean they were not on earth before they were sent

    #803766
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi KW,

    We are still waiting for you to show from scripture that Jesus was reborn of the Spirit before the Jordan.

    #803768
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    t8,
    Philippians 2:5-7 is another passage that some have a hard time understanding

    But isn’t that the problem? If there are too many hard verses for your view, then perhaps you need to consider that the view may be faulty.

    The amount of references in scripture regarding the ancient origins of whom we know as Jesus Christ today are numerous.

    You have the difficult job of having to provide an alternate explanation for each one, rather than accept the simple meaning in the text.

    Similarly, it would be difficult and confusing to try and prove that Jesus wasn’t the Christ too. There too would be many verses that you need to provide an alternate explanation rather than just believe the simple message that the text was conveying.

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