John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 18,121 through 18,140 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #803511
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    EDj..YOU AND NICK AND KERWIN HAVE PRESENTED IT CORRECTLY.

    TERRICCA, YOU STILL HAVE SOME OF THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF THE TRINITAARIANS REMAINING IN YOU BROTHER, IMO, you must come all the way out of those false teachings, Jesus must be seen as a completely human being, not dusting before his berth on this earth, he is a son of man, through his berth, that is what he is said to be begotten , that requires a human berth, it makes no difference if he was begotten by God the Father, or another human being , he still is now and alway will be a son of man, exactly as we all are. The only one who wants you to see Jesus different the we are is Satan himself, that was his plan all along. It was his Doctrine of Seperation, that he himself designed to cause people to. Not relate EXACTLY with Jesus, he wants you to think Jesus was and is different then we are that is exactly what he wants you to think brother. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours………………gene

    #803512
    kerwin
    Participant

    Terrartica,

    Koine Greek is like French, Italian, and a number of other languages where the pronouns take on the gender of the noun they replace. I believe you are well aware of this as I think you are literate in more than one language.

    So John 1:12-13 could be translated in one of three ways.

    Option 1:

    Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
    children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

    Option 2:

    Yet to all who received it, to those who believed in its name, it gave the right to become children of God—
    children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

    Option 3:

    Yet to all who received she, to those who believed in her name, she gave the right to become children of God—
    children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

    The fact that the nouns in John 1:13-14 are male reveals they are replacing a male noun even as you know is done in some languages, including modern Greek. The best candidate for that noun according to English grammar would be Light but since it has a neuter gender it clearly is not the correct one. That leads me to conclude John is still speaking about the word and John 1:6-9 is a comment made the writer.

    In English we say “he comes in the name of the Law” and that is equivalent to “believe in its (the word’s) name” so it is possible it can be done Koine Greek as well. Being that is so it is not clear evidence that the English gender of the pronouns should be either “he” or “she”.

    To conclude John 1-13 has no actual evidence that the word has a English gender. Any assigned gender comes from ideas developed outside the passage itself.

    You have simply been taught that the passage has been speaking of Jesus and so you read that into the words of John when John assumes his readers already know what he is writing of as John 1 is not teaching the path to salvation so much as striving to strengthen the believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

    #803513
    kerwin
    Participant

    Terrarica,

    No man can redeem the life of another
    or give to God a ransom for him—
    Ps 49:8 the ransom for a life is costly,
    no payment is ever enough—
    Ps 49:9 that he should live on forever
    and not see decay.

    That passage need verse 6 included as it is part of the sentence.

    Psalm 49:6-9Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    6
    They that trust in their wealth,
    and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches;
    7
    none of them can by any means redeem his brother,
    nor give to God a ransom for him:
    8
    (for the redemption of their soul is precious,
    and it ceaseth for ever:)
    9
    that he should still live for ever,
    and not see corruption.

    Jesus did not “trust in his wealth, and boast himself in the multitude of his riches”.

    #803514
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,

    The choosing by G0d, the cleansing by obedience and the anointing with the Spirit transformed an ordinary man.

    It is always all about God.

    #803515
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,

    The body of Jesus did not corrupt as prophesied.

    The sign of Jonah was fulfilled.

    But that did not mean he was created as different to us.

    Neither did the body of Jonah when he went to the place of the dead.

    Nobody says Jonah was different to you and I do they?

    #803516
    942767
    Participant

    Hi T8:

    You say:

    You have just explained why he is called the Word of God. He chooses to speak that which the Father says, and does not speak for himself.

    At the cross he asked God to remove the cup from him, but not his will but the Father’s will. So he also chooses to do the will of God.

    He existed in the form of God, emptied himself, came in the flesh, was obedient until death, rose from the dead, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

    My comments:

    The scripture states:

    Revelation 19:

    And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    And so, precisely, the scripture does not say that “he is the Word of God” but “his name is called The Word of God”.

    His “name is called the Word of God” because he is the judge of the living and the dead.  Following is Strong’s definition for
    “name”:

    name: univ. of proper names
    the name is used for everything which the name covers, everything the thought or feeling of which is aroused in the mind by mentioning, hearing, remembering, the name, i.e. for one’s rank, authority, interests, pleasure, command, excellences, deeds etc.
    persons reckoned up by name
    the cause or reason named: on this account, because he suffers as a Christian, for this reason

    John 12:

    47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

    48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

    49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

    50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

    He was “in the form of God” in his ministry here on earth as God’s as God’s Christ being sent by God and operating in God’s authority, not in some pre-existent form prior to his his advent on earth.

    John 5 states:

    16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

    17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

    18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

    19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

    20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

    21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

    22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

    23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

    • This reply was modified 10 years, 9 months ago by Admin.
    #803520
    terraricca
    Participant

    kerwin

    I don’t use a dictionary to understand that Jesus ,came down from heaven and was made flesh ,and when he died he return to his previous position /glory

    this is well explained in scriptures ;if you did not see this yet ,per ups later but for now no use to explain you what you cannot comprehend ,so I going to leave it as it is ,

    Jesus did not chose that name “THE WORD” IT WAS GIVEN TO HIM BY HIS FATHER ,no one names any thing unles it is given by God ,

    the reason he receive this name ;well he became the spokesperson for /over all of creation ;

    God has established that his son will be the heir of all things ;(this is well described in scriptures)

    this is why J the Bpt said ;Jn 1:14 “THE WORD” became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.(JOHN SPEAKS ABOUT JESUS )

    pay attention to what it says here ;
    1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning “THE WORD”of life.(and if you know the scriptures we all know that through Jesus sacrifice he bring life and so again ;it was not written words that they could touch and see and live with him ,)

    1Jn 2:18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.
    1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
    1Jn 2:20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.
    1Jn 2:21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth.
    1Jn 2:22 Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son.
    1Jn 2:23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
    1Jn 2:24 See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father.
    1Jn 2:25 And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.

    see how John is careful to include these words in bold ;so he bring us back to what was said in John 1;1- 4;6

    1Jn 4:6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

    pay attention to what John says ;WHOEVER KNOWS GOD LISTEN TO THEM , how can we know God ?

    #803521
    terraricca
    Participant

    more;

    1Jn 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
    1Jn 4:15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God.

    God does not have two sons when it talks about Jesus “THE WORD” only one is his son ;

    1Jn 5:5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

    Col 1:15 He (Jesus)is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    Col 1:16 For through him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created through him and for him.
    Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    but in addition to the above scriptures Jesus is also ;

    Col 1:18 And1) he is the head of the body,2) the church;3) he is the beginning and 4)the firstborn from among the dead, 5)so that in everything he might have the 6) supremacy.
    Col 1:19 (7)For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him (Jesus),
    Col 1:20 (8)and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on 9)earth or things in 10)heaven,11) by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

    Jn 3:11 I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.

    Jn 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

    HOW PLAIN DO YOU WANT JESUS SAY THIS TO US ?

    WHY do you feel that you have to interpret his words ? this is not a parable nor a story, it is plain and simple language ;

    Jn 1:14 “THE WORD” became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father,

    • This reply was modified 10 years, 9 months ago by Admin.
    #803524
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,

    Scripture specifies that Jesus is a man, a son of Adam.

    Men do not come from heaven.

    The anointing on this man came from heaven.

    Flesh contributes nothing.

    #803525
    kerwin
    Participant

    Terrarica,

    The only proper name God gave to Jesus is translated “God is Salvation”.

    Nick is correct that Scripture teaches us Jesus is a human being and human beings do not physically come from heaven.

    The word comes out of God’s mouth and since God is in heaven and therefore it comes from heaven.

    I find dictionaries and there equivalent useful for understanding a language and if I do not understand it then the language, even my own, is alien to me.

    Jesus received the Spirit which is the agent of God word and communicates the word. The Spirit also comes from God and so from above, even as Nick implies.

    #803526
    kerwin
    Participant

    Terrarica,

    1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning “THE WORD”of life

    Be careful not to be presumptuous about what you hear from scripture. The “apostles” proclaim the word of God and not the person of Jesus Christ, who is the pioneer and mediator of the word they proclaim.

    “That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched” is the same word that the prophets speak at they are carried along by the Spirit and the same word the was first put in Jesus and written on his heard so that he would be the author of the true Christian faith. It is that same word the apostles proclaim as they are carried along by the Spirit.

    #803527
    terraricca
    Participant

    kerwin

    Be careful not to be presumptuous about what you hear from scripture. The “apostles” proclaim the word of God and not the person of Jesus Christ, who is the pioneer and mediator of the word they proclaim.

    “That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched” is the same word that the prophets speak at they are carried along by the Spirit and the same word the was first put in Jesus and written on his heard so that he would be the author of the true Christian faith. It is that same word the apostles proclaim as they are carried along by the Spirit.

    ————————————————————————-

    when John speaks of the beginning in 1 John 1;1 he means the beginning of Jesus (THE WORD”) preachings and miracles and his teachings of the truth from the already written scriptures ,

    this is why it says ;1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning “THE WORD”of life

    when John the apostle talks in John 1; 1 —Jn 1:1 In the beginning wasTHE WORD”, and “THE WORD” was with God, and “THE WORD” was (a) God.
    Jn 1:2 He(“THE WORD” was with God in the beginning.

    THIS COMPLY WITH Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    Col 1:16 For through him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created through him and for him.

    in this John means at the beginning of creation

    this also comply with ;
    Pr 8:22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
    before his deeds of old;

    and this also comply with ;
    JN 6:41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.”
    JN 6:51 “ I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”
    JN 6:58 “This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever

    also comply with ;

    Jn 17:24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

    and also;

    Jn 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    and many other scriptures ,if you don’t believe in scriptures then we have done talking

    #803530
    kerwin
    Participant

    Terrarica,

    I assume you are claiming that one of Jesus’ titles in Scripture is “the word” but you have not presented a case that is true.

    The words “[It](‘THE WORD’) was with God in the beginning” are talking of the words God’s speak which Scripture teaches us come from God and were with him in the beginning of creation for by them all things were created and nothing was created without God’s words (Word). Paul is speaking in Colossians of the Word made Flesh as you well know and so of course it describes the actions of the words that created all things that have been created.

    #803535
    terraricca
    Participant

    kerwin

    you don’t believe scriptures unless you agree with them this is putting God in the second plan you being first ;

    sorry I do not worship men ,

    so this is the end for me in this discussion ;with you

    #803536
    kerwin
    Participant

    Terrarica,

    You are clearly losing this discussion because what you believe does not come from Scripture that are interpreted according to the principle of God. Instead you prefer to understand Scriptures that are interpreted according to the principles of humanity.

    It is very simple the word means “the expressed or manifested mind and will of God ” and it is not hidden as I obtained that definition from Merriam-Webster’s online dictionary.

    It is not the name or title of a creature. There is no evidence John is speaking about a creature until the word was made flesh. Jesus Christ is the “manifested mind and will of God”.

    #803539
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,

    God knows the end of things already.

    So prophetic words are confusing to those yet to know the light.

    Scripture says of us that we are saved, we have been saved and we will be saved.

    None of these things are untrue and there are no contradictions.

    Be transformed by the renewing of your minds before relying on your understanding.

    #803540
    terraricca
    Participant

    Nick

    why you don’t show scriptures ?

    why are you not believe the scriptures ?

    why are you find the need to interpret scriptures that are so simple to read ?

    if you cannot recognise the one that has send us his only son will you accept the father that sent him ?

    you don’t have to believe me ,I don’t ask for it ;just believe the scriptures can you ? it seem not

    #803541
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,

    To show scriptures is helpful only to those who have spiritual eyes and ears.

    To those still bound by the earthly view it is uselessness.

    #803542
    kerwin
    Participant

    Terraricca,

    To illustrate Nick’s point I show Scriptures and what has it accomplished?

    #803546
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,

    Men seek understanding without wisdom.

    They try to define what is spiritual according to human concepts.

    Their efforts only frustrate them as the ways of God do not fit in the ways of men.

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