John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 17,121 through 17,140 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #382130
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ May 12 2014,18:13)
    Jesus is the exact image of God because he does what he sees God doing and says what he sees God say. It is not about physical appearance………..


    In Hebrews 1:3, the Greek word is “charakter”, Kerwin.

    Do you know what a “charakter” is?

    #382136
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ May 13 2014,14:35)

    Quote
    You have a right to your own understanding as well.

    Mike,

    I WOULD APPRECIATE IT IF YOU WERE TO PROOF OTHERWISE WITH SCRIPTURES!


    I do that all the time, Charles.

    Here's a couple for you:

    Luke 1:32
    He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High.

    Luke 8:28
    When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell at his feet, shouting at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, don’t torture me!”

    According to those scriptures, is Jesus the Most High God? Or the SON OF the Most High God?

    He can't be both, Charles.

    These are the scriptures I believe. I have no interest in the unscriptural mumbo-jumbo you try to preach around here.

    #382144
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ May 13 2014,11:13)

    Quote (jammin @ May 13 2014,05:54)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 13 2014,10:45)

    Quote (jammin @ May 12 2014,10:50)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 10 2014,05:05)
    Jammin,

    Do you understand this verse?

    John 14:9
    New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

    9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?


    yes. the meaning of the verse is that HE IS THE EXACT IMAGE OF HIS FATHER.

    Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
    hath seen the Father; the perfections which are in him also; for the same that are in me are in him, and the same that are in him are in me: I am the very image of him, and am possessed of the same nature, attributes, and glory, that he is; so that he that sees the one, sees the other:

    what about you? do you understand john 1.1 that Christ was the Word and he was God?

    i know you dont because you have your own doctrine.


    Jammin,

    Gill is using many vague terms and his meaning is open to interpretation.  More than likely there is more context in his further words than the few you supplied.

    I very much doubt that Gill believed that Jesus' outward appearance was the same as God's.  God is revealed in Jesus' words and actions just as Jesus is seen in those believers that are mature. In this was the nature of God is revealed in those that believe.


    gill is a bible scholar.

    In 1748, Gill was awarded the honorary degree of Doctor of Divinity by the University of Aberdeen. He was a profound scholar and a prolific author. His most important works are:

    The Doctrine of the Trinity Stated and Vindicated (London, 1731)
    The Cause of God and Truth (4 parts, 1735–8), a retort to Daniel Whitby's Five Points
    An Exposition of the New Testament (3 vols., 1746–8), which with his Exposition of the Old Testament (6 vols., 1748–63) forms his magnum opus
    A Collection of Sermons and Tracts[1]
    A Dissertation Concerning the Antiquity of the Hebrew Language, Letters, Vowel-Points, and Accents (1767)[1]
    A Body of Doctrinal Divinity (1767)
    A Body of Practical Divinity (1770).

    what about you kerwin? you are nothing. you have nothing to offer just like the other false teachers here.
    you offer stories and fairy tale doctrine but cant be read in the bible.

    you are a clown. hahaha


    Jammin,

    What is knowledge without the Spirit?

    Since Gill is so knowledgeable then perhaps he should be more clear.  Of course he might be if I read more of what he is saying.

    Jesus is the exact image of God because he does what he sees God doing and says what he sees God say.  It is not about physical appearance or being the same kind as God.


    oh yeah? hahaha

    that is the kind of reasoning from a creature who has the form of beast. hahahah

    gill is a normal person and he thinks properly. honestly, it is my first time to hear a person saying that he has the form of BEAST and not HUMAN nature. hahahah

    that is the most ridiculous words i have ever heard. hahahah

    you need a psychiatrist kerwin.

    #382148
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2014,12:02)

    Quote (jammin @ May 12 2014,17:56)
    what is your form or nature?


    Which one are you asking about, jammin?

    The words mean two different things.


    form also means nature.

    nature is a synonym of essence and essence is a synonym of form .
    do you understand?

    now to make it simple, what is your nature?

    #382184
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ May 13 2014,20:52)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2014,12:02)

    Quote (jammin @ May 12 2014,17:56)
    what is your form or nature?


    Which one are you asking about, jammin?

    The words mean two different things.


    form also means nature.

    nature is a synonym of essence and essence is a synonym of form .
    do you understand?

    now to make it simple, what is your nature?


    Show me from a thesaurus.

    From Dictionary.com:

    Synonyms for form

    design
    fashion
    mode
    model
    pattern
    plan
    scheme
    structure
    style
    system
    anatomy
    appearance
    articulation
    cast
    configuration
    conformation
    construction
    contour
    cut
    die
    embodiment
    figure
    formation
    framework
    mold
    outline
    profile
    silhouette
    skeleton

    I don't see “nature” or “essence” there….. do you?

    #382201
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2014,08:20)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 12 2014,18:13)
    Jesus is the exact image of God because he does what he sees God doing and says what he sees God say.  It is not about physical appearance………..


    In Hebrews 1:3, the Greek word is “charakter”, Kerwin.

    Do you know what a “charakter” is?


    Mike,

    Thank you. That is interesting. It makes you wonder why some translators do not use the word character.

    Biblehub states the answer to your question is:

    Quote
    5481 xaraktḗr – properly, an engraving; (figuratively) an exact impression (likeness) which also reflects inner character.

    [5481 /xaraktḗr was originally a tool (used for engraving) and then came to mean “a die” (“mould”). Finally it stood for a stamp or impress used on a coin or seal (see H, 368). In each case, the stamp conveyed the reality behind the image.]

    The Greek fathers (ad 100 -500) used 5481 /xaraktḗr (“the ultimate radiance”) of the supreme effulgence of Christ, showing forth His glory as the second Person of the eternal Godhead (Heb 1:3).

    Whenever someone makes arguments like this I get suspicious. It sounds to much like a legal argument.

    #382202
    kerwin
    Participant

    Jammin,

    Quote
    you need a psychiatrist kerwin.

    Why do you choose to cover your lack of knowledge with insults? Have you not heard the proverb “It is better for a man to keep his mouth closed and to look a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.”

    #382203
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Quote
    The word “mortal” is not in the Greek scripture, Kerwin. But if your “expert witnesses” understand “flesh” to mean “mortal”, and our future bodies will NOT BE “mortal”, there is a strong implication that those future bodies will not be “flesh” either.

    Besides……. flesh, blood AND bone are all “mortal”. All three of those things decay. So even if you insist on your expert's addition of the word “mortal” in 1 Cor 15:50, you still can't say, “Well, only the blood part of the human body is mortal, and therefore the flesh and bone parts CAN inherit the kingdom of God – because those parts don't decay.”

    So you are accusing these experts of being off their rocker or least seems to be the case as they make the same argument I do when you say most people will think I am off my rocker. Of course you may disagree with those people who think such things.

    I see no evidence you bothered finding out why they have interpreted flesh and blood to mean mortal body. Instead you chose not to look for a good argument why they are in error.

    #382204
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Quote

    “Enter” is clearly implied by Paul, and explicitly STATED by Jesus in John 3.  And in Jesus' teaching, only “flesh” is mentioned, so you can't weasel out of it by saying, “Flesh and BONE is okay, as long as it's not flesh and BLOOD!”

    I assume you mean John 3:5 which has a meaning that a man cannot enter the kingdom after judgement day provide we are going by your interpretation which I disagree with.  It is not speaking of the present heaven.

    John 3:5
    King James Version (KJV)

    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    #382205
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Quote
    Kerwin, you'd be surprised at how many of the phrases “flesh and blood” in the OT are literally “BONE and flesh” in the Hebrew text. The phrases mean the same thing.

    The scholars who translated “BONE and flesh” as “flesh and BLOOD” knew this. They altered it to “flesh and BLOOD” in our Bibles, because although the phrases mean the same thing, we rarely, if ever, use “flesh and BONE” in English.

    Compare:

    2 Samuel 19:13 NIV
    And say to Amasa, ‘Are you not my own flesh and blood?

    2 Samuel 19:13 KJV
    And say ye to Amasa, Art thou not of my bone, and of my flesh?

    I realize that sometimes both flesh and bone and flesh and blood refer to genealogy but I have doubts you will find many who agree that a human cannot enter the kingdom of God.

    Do a Google search and let me know the results.

    #382232
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ May 14 2014,16:49)
    Jammin,

    Quote
    you need a psychiatrist kerwin.

    Why do you choose to cover your lack of knowledge with insults? Have you not heard the proverb “It is better for a man to keep his mouth closed and to look a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.”


    why do you choose not to accept the truth even if it is written?

    did you ask yourself that maybe you have a mind problem? why cant you accept that you have the form of HUMAN?
    a man created by God has no form of beast. that is not God's creation. you fool people.

    #382234
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2014,14:56)

    Quote (jammin @ May 13 2014,20:52)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2014,12:02)

    Quote (jammin @ May 12 2014,17:56)
    what is your form or nature?


    Which one are you asking about, jammin?

    The words mean two different things.


    form also means nature.

    nature is a synonym of essence and essence is a synonym of form .
    do you understand?

    now to make it simple, what is your nature?


    Show me from a thesaurus.  

    From Dictionary.com:

    Synonyms for form

    design  
    fashion  
    mode  
    model
    pattern
    plan  
    scheme  
    structure  
    style  
    system  
    anatomy
    appearance
    articulation
    cast  
    configuration  
    conformation  
    construction
    contour
    cut
    die
    embodiment
    figure
    formation
    framework
    mold
    outline
    profile
    silhouette
    skeleton

    I don't see “nature” or “essence” there….. do you?


    why dont you go back to school and study synonyms?

    http://thesaurus.com/browse/essence

    essence synonym

    – form

    ——-

    you need to study more

    #382251
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ May 14 2014,19:56)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 14 2014,16:49)
    Jammin,

    Quote
    you need a psychiatrist kerwin.

    Why do you choose to cover your lack of knowledge with insults? Have you not heard the proverb “It is better for a man to keep his mouth closed and to look a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.”


    why do you choose not to accept the truth even if it is written?

    did you ask yourself that maybe you have a mind problem? why cant you accept that you have the form of HUMAN?
    a man created by God has no form of beast. that is not God's creation. you fool people.


    Jammin,

    I am not looking for a conversation from you where you choose not to seek knowledge. Lack of knowledge is nothing to feel shame about. The refusal to seek knowledge is something to feel shame about.

    You sit that and there and try to claim form and image are synonyms even though you should know better. If you do not know then seek to find out. This should be that important and more to you.

    You also choose to cast unfounded accusations against those who have done so. Sometimes they have also stooped seeking but a different level but it is always wise to test what your hear and as well as what you believe.

    #382253
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=Wakeup,May 12 2014,12:34][/quote]

    Quote
    Good question.

    The answer is because all that has to be written down for us.
    If the stones stayed closed and locked; then Mary and others would not have experienced what they saw.
    Therefore not written down.
    The broken chain lock is evidence.
    The stone door open,is evidence.
    The cloth left inside is evidence.
    The body missing is evidence,for us also.

    Wakeup,

    I WASN’T ARGUING REGARDING THOSE EVIDENCES  BY ALL MEANS, IN FACT THROIUGH THEM, AND THE WAY IT HAPPENED I AM CONVINCED THAT JESUS WAS A HUMAN BEING WHEN HE RESURRECTED!

    THAT WAS MY POINT!

    BUT DO NOT THINK THAT JESUS WAS IN A WAY CAPABLE OF COMING OUT THROUGH WALLS AND IN ORDER TO FURNISH US WITH THOSE EVIDENCES,HE HANGED ON AND WAITED FOR THE ANGEL TO REMOVE THE STONE!

    EVREYTHING  GENUINELY HAPPENED AS IT WAS WRITTEN, BUT IT IS  OUR  INTEREST TO ANALYZE WHAT WAS WRITTEN, TO ESTABLISH THE TRUTH, AND THAT’S WHAT I’M INTERESTED IN!

    BECAUSE ALTHOUGH AS YOU SAID IT WAS WRITTEN, IT IS STILL A MYSTERY WHAT ACTUALLY THROUGH WHAT WAS WRITTEN WHAT THE TRUTH IS!

    AND IF THE TRUTH COULD INTERFERE IN A WAY MIKE,

    HE SIMPLY CALLS IT  ALL SORTS, EXCEPT TRUTH!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #382254
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,May 14 2014,13:26][/quote]

    Quote
      I have no interest in the unscriptural mumbo-jumbo you try to preach around here.

    Mike,

    UNSCRIPTURAL MUMBO-JUMBO WOULD BE WHAT YOU SAID REGARDING JESUS' SPIRITUAL STATE IF YOU DON'T ANSWER THIS QUESTION!

    WHAT CONVINCED YOU SO MUCH THAT MADE YOU BELIEVE THAT HE NEVER HAD HIS SPIRITUAL BODY WHILE HE WAS ON EARTH?

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #382290
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ May 13 2014,23:42)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2014,08:20)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 12 2014,18:13)
    Jesus is the exact image of God because he does what he sees God doing and says what he sees God say.  It is not about physical appearance………..


    In Hebrews 1:3, the Greek word is “charakter”, Kerwin.

    Do you know what a “charakter” is?


    Mike,

    Thank you.  That is interesting.  It makes you wonder why some translators do not use the word character.

    Biblehub states the answer to your question is:

    Quote
    5481 xaraktḗr – properly, an engraving; (figuratively) an exact impression (likeness) which also reflects inner character.

    [5481 /xaraktḗr was originally a tool (used for engraving) and then came to mean “a die” (“mould”). Finally it stood for a stamp or impress used on a coin or seal (see H, 368). In each case, the stamp conveyed the reality behind the image.]

    The Greek fathers (ad 100 -500) used 5481 /xaraktḗr (“the ultimate radiance”) of the supreme effulgence of Christ, showing forth His glory as the second Person of the eternal Godhead (Heb 1:3).

    Whenever someone makes arguments like this I get suspicious.  It sounds to much like a legal argument.


    I agree with your last point.  It's easy for people like you and me to see when a Trinitarian “scholar” is simply talking smack in an effort to cause the more gullible people into believing the Son OF God IS the very God he is the Son OF.

    You and I are aware of their tricks, and therefore don't fall for that garbage they spew.

    But the definition I supersized is the correct one for Hebrews 1:3.

    A “charakter” was an engraving tool which was used to stamp symbols into metal.  You might remember some of the old time movies that ended with a close up of a hand holding such a tool, and stamping Roman numerals on a piece of metal.  I can't remember the name of the studio which ended their movies that way – but maybe you remember seeing them anyway.

    The thing is that both the tool, AND the impression that tool made in the metal, is called a “charakter”.

    So from the context, and from knowing that Jesus came FROM the Father, we know that the writer of Hebrews was talking about Jesus being the impression left behind by the tool. (The Father is obviously the tool that made the mark.)

    If the tool is engraved with “XXL”, for instance, the mark made with the tool will be an equivalent “XXL”.

    So Hebrews 1:3, in conjunction with Colossians 1:15, tells us that Jesus is the “spitting image” of the God we humans cannot see with our flesh eyes.

    Jesus is the VISIBLE image of the INVISIBLE God.  He is the exact “charakter” of that God.  In other words, Jesus looks just like His and our God looks.

    (As a side note, the translators probably didn't use the word “character” because, although the English word “character” came from the Greek word, the Greek word refers to the visible outward appearance of a thing – and not to the inner traits or “characteristics” of that thing.)

    #382292
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ May 14 2014,00:30)
    Mike,

    Quote
    The word “mortal” is not in the Greek scripture, Kerwin.  But if your “expert witnesses” understand “flesh” to mean “mortal”, and our future bodies will NOT BE “mortal”, there is a strong implication that those future bodies will not be “flesh” either.

    Besides……. flesh, blood AND bone are all “mortal”.  All three of those things decay.  So even if you insist on your expert's addition of the word “mortal” in 1 Cor 15:50, you still can't say, “Well, only the blood part of the human body is mortal, and therefore the flesh and bone parts CAN inherit the kingdom of God – because those parts don't decay.”

    So you are accusing these experts of being off their rocker or least seems to be the case as they make the same argument I do when you say most people will think I am off my rocker.  Of course you may disagree with those people who think such things.  

    I see no evidence you bothered finding out why they have interpreted flesh and blood to mean mortal body.  Instead you chose not to look for a good argument why they are in error.


    I don't disagree with those translations, Kerwin.  So why would I try to find fault with them?

    The point is that flesh, blood, and bone bodies are MORTAL.  We all know this.

    The bodies in which the dead are raised are NOT mortal.  We also know this.

    So I understand those translations to be saying that we will be raised with a body that ISN'T mortal, and therefore ISN'T flesh, blood, or bone.

    I agree with them.  We will not be raised with a mortal flesh, blood, and bone body – but with an immortal spiritual (“made of spirit”) body.

    I highly doubt the guys who did those translations agree with you that our “mortal flesh body” will die, but we will be raised with an “IMMORTAL flesh body”.  It is THAT belief that causes me to say you're off your rocker.  And I think you stand alone with that belief, because I've never read any scripture, or any commentary, that spoke of “immortal spiritual flesh bodies”.

    #382293
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ May 14 2014,00:37)
    Mike,

    Quote

    “Enter” is clearly implied by Paul, and explicitly STATED by Jesus in John 3.  And in Jesus' teaching, only “flesh” is mentioned, so you can't weasel out of it by saying, “Flesh and BONE is okay, as long as it's not flesh and BLOOD!”

    I assume you mean John 3:5 which has a meaning that a man cannot enter the kingdom after judgement day provide we are going by your interpretation which I disagree with.  It is not speaking of the present heaven.

    John 3:5
    King James Version (KJV)

    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


    I'm not sure what your words are actually saying – or where you found the words “new heaven” or “present heaven” in John 3.

    But what that passage teaches is that FLESH can neither see, nor enter, the kingdom of God.

    Those who wish to enter that kingdom must be born again from above – by something OTHER THAN flesh – before being able to see or enter that heavenly kingdom. They must be born of “spirit and water” – AS OPPOSED TO “flesh”.'

    Get it? Something OTHER THAN flesh.

    #382308
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ May 14 2014,00:45)
    Mike,

    Quote
    Kerwin, you'd be surprised at how many of the phrases “flesh and blood” in the OT are literally “BONE and flesh” in the Hebrew text.  The phrases mean the same thing.  

    The scholars who translated “BONE and flesh” as “flesh and BLOOD” knew this.  They altered it to “flesh and BLOOD” in our Bibles, because although the phrases mean the same thing, we rarely, if ever, use “flesh and BONE” in English.

    Compare:

    2 Samuel 19:13 NIV
    And say to Amasa, ‘Are you not my own flesh and blood?

    2 Samuel 19:13 KJV
    And say ye to Amasa, Art thou not of my bone, and of my flesh?

    I realize that sometimes both flesh and bone and flesh and blood refer to genealogy but I have doubts you will find many who agree that a human cannot enter the kingdom of God.

    Do a Google search and let me know the results.


    I didn't find too many results, Kerwin.  But here is one place where someone asked the question.

    Notice that the answer designated as “Best Answer” says:

    The earth was made for man and man was made for the earth. Only a very few humans have been bought from the earth and they will have to be resurrected as spirit beings or changed in an instant before they can go there.

    I concur.  But if you want to believe that Jesus and the angels in heaven are flesh beings – I can't stop you.  Is there really any sense in dragging this out further?  

    I made a bunch of wonderful points using scriptures in our private discussion of this topic.  You balked at all of them – always coming up with a nonsensical way to understand the words, while pretending you couldn't even SEE the most sensible way those words could be understood.

    For example:

    1 John 3:2
    Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

    The SENSIBLE understanding of these words is:

    1.  We have NOT yet seen Christ as he is now.

    2.  But when Christ appears, we will finally be able to see him as he is.

    3.  At that time, we will also be like he is.

    4.  But, because none of those first three things have happened yet, we don't yet know what we will be.

    The very LEAST anyone should be able to take from this verse is that even those who DID see Jesus on earth after the resurrection, DID NOT see Jesus as he now is.

    The last time John saw Jesus, John was NOT seeing Jesus as he now is.  That means Jesus now has a DIFFERENT appearance than the way he looked the last time John saw him.

    But again, you will just balk at this most sensible understanding of John's words.  So is it really worth it to carry on with this discussion?

    #382319
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ May 14 2014,08:04)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2014,14:56)

    Quote (jammin @ May 13 2014,20:52)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2014,12:02)

    Quote (jammin @ May 12 2014,17:56)
    what is your form or nature?


    Which one are you asking about, jammin?

    The words mean two different things.


    form also means nature.

    nature is a synonym of essence and essence is a synonym of form .
    do you understand?

    now to make it simple, what is your nature?


    Show me from a thesaurus.  

    From Dictionary.com:

    Synonyms for form

    design  
    fashion  
    mode  
    model
    pattern
    plan  
    scheme  
    structure  
    style  
    system  
    anatomy
    appearance
    articulation
    cast  
    configuration  
    conformation  
    construction
    contour
    cut
    die
    embodiment
    figure
    formation
    framework
    mold
    outline
    profile
    silhouette
    skeleton

    I don't see “nature” or “essence” there….. do you?


    why dont you go back to school and study synonyms?

    http://thesaurus.com/browse/essence

    essence synonym

    – form

    ——-

    you need to study more


    Here is the entire list:

    aspect
    basis
    bottom line
    character
    core
    crux
    element
    lifeblood
    meaning
    nature
    principle
    quality
    reality
    root
    soul
    spirit
    structure
    substance
    attribute
    backbone
    base
    being
    bottom
    burden
    caliber
    constitution
    entity
    essentiality
    fiber
    form
    fundamentals
    germ
    grain
    kernel
    life
    marrow
    meat
    nitty-gritty
    nub
    nucleus
    pith
    point
    property
    quiddity
    quintessence
    stuff
    timber
    vein
    be-all and end-all
    chief constituent
    essentia
    main idea
    name of game
    virtuality

    There are a lot of words there that I would never equate with “essence”.  “Vein”?  “Meat”?  “Name of game”?  “Germ”?  “Grain”?  “Kernel”?  ???

    I don't know what “form”, or those other words, are doing on that list, or how the word “form” is intended in that list.  I do know that when “form” has a meaning of “outward appearance”, like it does every time “morphe” is used in scripture, it is NOT a synonym of “essense”.

    In fact, here are the antonyms of “essence”:

    Antonyms for essence

    abstract
    exterior
    exteriority
    outside

    The word “form” refers to the “exterior”, or “outside” that is VISIBLE.  So how could “form” be a synonym of “essence” – which clearly refers to the INNER things, since “exterior” and “outside” are ANTONYMS of it?  ???

    Perhaps you could explain it to me.

    At any rate, here is the definition of “morphe” from the Bible sites:

    morphe
    1) the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision 2) external appearance

    That is good enough for me, since it makes perfect sense in EACH of the three times that Greek word is used in scripture.  There are also secular old Greek writings which use that same word “morphe” when referring to the form of gods when they make themselves VISIBLE to human beings.

    But all of this is still beside the point anyway.  It doesn't matter if you want to say “morphe” refers to “nature” or “essence” – because the fact would still be that Phil 2:6 speaks of Jesus existing in the “nature/essence” of his own God, the Father.  (I learned that from your buddy Gill.  :) )

    No matter how you slice it, you lose on this one, jammin.

    Phil 2:6 says Jesus was existing in the form of HIS OWN God before being made in the likeness of a human being.  Just like I originally said so long ago.  :)

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