John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 17,141 through 17,160 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #382324
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ May 14 2014,12:29)
    WHAT CONVINCED YOU SO MUCH THAT MADE YOU BELIEVE THAT HE NEVER HAD HIS SPIRITUAL BODY WHILE HE WAS ON EARTH?


    Luke 24:37-39, Charles.

    Jesus flat out told his disciples that he WASN'T a spirit at that time.  I don't believe he lied to them.

    Also 1 John 3:2, where it is clear that the disciples hadn't ever seen Jesus “as he is”.

    #382403
    jammin
    Participant

    you need to make your own dictionary mike.

    if you check the greek lexicon of strong you will see that morphe (form) also means nature.

    also, the http://thesaurus.com/browse/essence said form is a synonym for essence. hahaha

    you may also check this
    Essence is also called form, for the certitude of every thing is signified through its form, as Avicenna says in his Metaphysicae I, cap. 6.

    an educated man knows that essence is a synonym of form. i can't blame you mike because i know you have nothing to offer. you do not know greek. you do not know how to read the bible and now you do not know english hahaha.

    go to school. it is best if you take my advice.

    #382415
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 15 2014,05:43)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 14 2014,00:37)
    Mike,

    Quote

    “Enter” is clearly implied by Paul, and explicitly STATED by Jesus in John 3.  And in Jesus' teaching, only “flesh” is mentioned, so you can't weasel out of it by saying, “Flesh and BONE is okay, as long as it's not flesh and BLOOD!”

    I assume you mean John 3:5 which has a meaning that a man cannot enter the kingdom after judgement day provide we are going by your interpretation which I disagree with.  It is not speaking of the present heaven.

    John 3:5
    King James Version (KJV)

    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


    I'm not sure what your words are actually saying – or where you found the words “new heaven” or “present heaven” in John 3.

    But what that passage teaches is that FLESH can neither see, nor enter, the kingdom of God.

    Those who wish to enter that kingdom must be born again from above – by something OTHER THAN flesh – before being able to see or enter that heavenly kingdom.  They must be born of “spirit and water” – AS OPPOSED TO “flesh”.'

    Get it?  Something OTHER THAN flesh.


    Mike,

    I am saying the passage is speaking of the new earth and the new heaven and not the current earth or the current heaven.  

    I see no need to go beyond that as it clearly is not speaking of entering the current heaven.

    What do you think Jesus was teaching about if not entering the new heaven and the new earth?

    #382416
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Quote

    I didn't find too many results, Kerwin. But here is one place where someone asked the question.

    Notice that the answer designated as “Best Answer” says:

    The earth was made for man and man was made for the earth. Only a very few humans have been bought from the earth and they will have to be resurrected as spirit beings or changed in an instant before they can go there.

    I concur. But if you want to believe that Jesus and the angels in heaven are flesh beings – I can't stop you. Is there really any sense in dragging this out further?

    I can see the woman concurs to you though she stated he point strangely. She did not say that humans do not enter the kingdom of heaven but that instead they transform to spirit beings before entering. You have also claimed this previously even though there is nowhere in Scripture that is written.

    I do not thing of that works with flesh and blood being used to means kinship as the kinship remains.

    #382418
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,May 15 2014,12:04][/quote]

    Quote
    Jesus flat out told his disciples that he WASN'T a spirit at that time.  I don't believe he lied to them.

    Mike,

    HERE ARE SOME OF YOUR MUMBO-JUMBO!

    YOU SAID:

    Quote
    God has given Jesus all things – to the point that Jesus can say, “What's His is mine, and what's mine is His.”

    THAT’S PERFECT!

    BUT DO YOU KNOW WHAT EXACTLY THAT MEANS?

    IT MEANS THAT GOD THE FATHER GAVE JESUS, HIS ATTRIBUTES, ALL HIS THINGS, WHICH DEFINTIELY ARE ALL THE POWERS AND FUNCTIONS OF THE SPIRIT!  SO JESUS OWNED AS HIS OWN ALL SPIRITUAL PROCESSES, AND HE COULD USE THEM AS HE SEES FIT! APART THAT HE OWNED HIS OWN FLESH BODY

    NOW IN HEBREWS 2:8  PAUL SAID:

    8Thou hast subjected all things under his feet. For in that he hath subjected all things to him, he left nothing not subject to him.

    IN THE ABOVE  IT IS EMPHATICALLY CLEAR THAT:

    THERE WAS NOTHING LEFT NOT SUBJECT TO JESUS

    SO ALL SPIRITUAL POWERS WERE SUBJECT TO JESUS!

    THEREFORE HE USED THAT SPIRITUAL FUNCTION IN ORDER TO ENTER THROUGH WALLS! THAN HE RETURNED INTO HIS FLESH BODY, AND SHOWED THEM HIS WOUNDS!

    SO THEY BELIEVE THAT HE REALLY IS BACK TO LIFE!

    NOW:

    ANGELS ARE ONLY SPIRITS,THEREFORE  SINCE  JESUS OWNED ALL THE FATHER’S THINGS, AND ALSO HAD HIS OWN CARNAL THINGS,  HE COULD FUNCTION, BOTH AS A SPIRIT, AND AS FLESH, AS THE CASE MAY BE!

    OTHERWISE, NOT ONLY HE WOULDN’T HAVE GLORIFIED , BUT HE ALSO WOULDN’T HAVE BECOME  SUPERIOR OVER THE ANGELS!

    AND THE ANGELS WOULD NOT BE SUBJECT TO HIM!

    NOW AS I SAID IN THE OTHER POST, IT WAS VITAL BOTH FOR GOD ALMIGHTY, AND EVEN MORE FOR JESUS, TO USE BOTH OF THESE POWERS ON EARTH, SINCE HE DIED ON EARTH, SATANA’S OWN GROUND, PRECISELY  FOR THESE CAUSES !

    CONSIDERING THE FACT THAT SATANA BELIEVED THAT HE WOULD BE LIKE THE MOST HIGH THROUGH JESUS’ DEATH!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #382453
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ May 15 2014,07:41)
    you may also check this
    Essence is also called form, for the certitude of every thing is signified through its form, as Avicenna says in his Metaphysicae I, cap. 6.


    I have never heard of that person, or of that line of reasoning before.

    But it doesn't matter, since “form” was in your list of synonyms of “essence”.  

    You won the battle, but lost the war, jammin.  Even if you insist that “morphe” refers to “ESSENCE”, then Phil 2:6 still teaches that Jesus was existing “in the essence” of HIS OWN God, the Father.

    I don't agree with the “essence” or “nature” thing, and believe that entire idea was cooked up by Trinitarian “scholars”, who regularly try their best to twist any scripture they can into saying Jesus is God Almighty.  

    I mean, just look at those butchered paraphrase translations you're always posting here.  These guys are not honest scholars…… and they aren't interested in scriptural TRUTH.  All they want is for other people to believe the nonsense that you believe, jammin.  And they don't care how badly they have to twist scriptures and Greek definitions to arrive at their ultimate goal.

    If the word “morphe” was found ONLY in Mark 16:12, there would never be any scholar trying to invent a new definition for it, like “essence” or “nature”.

    But these “experts” have two agendas here:

    1.  They DON'T want people to think of God as having a form.

    2.  They DO want to convince people that Jesus and God are of the exact same “essence”, and are therefore both “God Almighty”.

    I don't buy it for a minute, because I can easily see the agendas that are driving them to do the things they do.  You are blind to the way they butcher scriptures, because when they are butchering those scriptures, they are at the same time telling you exactly what your ears are itching to hear.

    The bottom line is that Phil 2:6 teaches that Jesus was existing in the “morphe” of his own God, the Father, before being made in the likeness of a human being.  The Trinitarian scholars agree with me about that part.  So there is really no need for further discussion on the matter.

    #382454
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ May 15 2014,11:48)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 15 2014,05:43)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 14 2014,00:37)
    Mike,

    Quote

    “Enter” is clearly implied by Paul, and explicitly STATED by Jesus in John 3.  And in Jesus' teaching, only “flesh” is mentioned, so you can't weasel out of it by saying, “Flesh and BONE is okay, as long as it's not flesh and BLOOD!”

    I assume you mean John 3:5 which has a meaning that a man cannot enter the kingdom after judgement day provide we are going by your interpretation which I disagree with.  It is not speaking of the present heaven.

    John 3:5
    King James Version (KJV)

    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


    I'm not sure what your words are actually saying – or where you found the words “new heaven” or “present heaven” in John 3.

    But what that passage teaches is that FLESH can neither see, nor enter, the kingdom of God.

    Those who wish to enter that kingdom must be born again from above – by something OTHER THAN flesh – before being able to see or enter that heavenly kingdom.  They must be born of “spirit and water” – AS OPPOSED TO “flesh”.'

    Get it?  Something OTHER THAN flesh.


    Mike,

    I am saying the passage is speaking of the new earth and the new heaven and not the current earth or the current heaven.  

    I see no need to go beyond that as it clearly is not speaking of entering the current heaven.

    What do you think Jesus was teaching about if not entering the new heaven and the new earth?


    Kerwin,

    It doesn't matter if you want to say “new heaven”, “old heaven”, “current heaven”, or “tomorrow land heaven”……… because Jesus never mentioned the word “heaven” at all. And even if he had, it wouldn't matter WHICH heaven he was talking about.

    The fact is that flesh can ONLY give birth to more flesh. And for that reason, those who hope to see or enter the kingdom of God must be born again from above……. of WATER and SPIRIT. Ie: NOT FLESH.

    If flesh could enter the kingdom of God, then there would have been no reason for Jesus to say we must be born again of something OTHER THAN flesh in order to see and enter the kingdom of God.

    Can't you see this easy teaching?

    Btw, this was a part of my daily Bible reading today:

    Psalm 148:4
    Praise him, O highest heaven, and you waters above the sky!

    This alludes to the “heavenly water” I mentioned to you a while back. Also compare to Genesis 1:7.

    In my understanding, there is “heavenly water” that is not the same as H2O. Those of us who are to dwell in heaven after the resurrection will be comprised of this heavenly water and spirit.

    I believe this is what the angels are already comprised of.

    #382455
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ May 15 2014,12:10)
    She did not say that humans do not enter the kingdom of heaven but that instead they transform to spirit beings before entering.  You have also claimed this previously even though there is nowhere in Scripture that is written.


    But it IS written in scripture!

    Humans are made of FLESH, Kerwin.

    And Paul says FLESH cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

    And Jesus says FLESH cannot see or enter the kingdom of heaven.

    Don't confuse the fact that you don't WANT to see it in scripture with the claim that it isn't even IN scripture.

    #382458
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ May 15 2014,12:52)
    NOW IN HEBREWS 2:8  PAUL SAID:

    8Thou hast subjected all things under his feet. For in that he hath subjected all things to him, he left nothing not subject to him.

    IN THE ABOVE  IT IS EMPHATICALLY CLEAR THAT:

    THERE WAS NOTHING LEFT NOT SUBJECT TO JESUS


    A father can give his son “everything he owns”.  But we must also use reason, Charles.  If God literally gave Jesus EVERYTHING, then God Himself would have NOTHING – not even an existence.

    So take statements like those with a grain of understanding, okay?

    In the following statement, Paul lays out the obvious for people like you, who might have otherwise allowed your personal wishes to cause yourself confusion:

    1 Corinthians 15:27
    For he “has put everything under his feet.”  

    Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

    So use common sense here.  God Himself is not subjected to His holy servant, Jesus Christ.  Nor would Jesus even be that highly exalted if it was not for his own God and King anointing him with the oil of joy, and placing him above his companions.  (Heb 1)  

    Remember Charles, there isn't a servant who “became” God Almighty.  There still exists both God Almighty and His holy servant Jesus Christ.

    And our one and only God (who is also Jesus' one and only God) has given His holy servant Jesus a very great amount of power and authority.  But don't let the fact that the GREATER ONE gave the LESSER ONE a bunch of stuff confuse you into thinking that the LESSER ONE has now become the GREATER ONE.

    There is still a Most High God.  His name is Jehovah.  Jesus remains Jehovah's prophet, priest, spokesman, messiah, and servant.  He is not equal to Jehovah, but sits at the NEXT HIGHEST position there is – at Jehovah's right hand.

    #382498
    jammin
    Participant

    mike,

    when gill said THE father in his commentary, he was explaining about form that the father and the son both have.
    there is no version that would say Christ was existing in the form of HIS OWN GOD. if this phrase “form of his own God” (which you were saying) means they have the same form then i agree. i just do not want make confusion here by saying that the son was existing in the form of his own God because some believes that the son is also the father. that is not the teaching of the bible. the bible said Christ has the same nature just like his father. he is God just like his father. those scholars translated the bible to the best of their knowledge and ability. they did not say that God has no form. where can you read that? God has a form (nature). all scholars know that and they teach the nature and attributes of God. also, it is not the scholars who said that Christ and the father are of the exact same essence. it is written in the bible and john told us about this.

    john 1.1

    The Word was God.

    paul also said Christ is equal with God.

    phil 2.6 NIV
    did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

    if Christ is not equal with God, then paul should not say did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage. it is non sense to say those words if he is not equal with God.

    therefore, it is very clear that you do not know the true meaning of the word of God.

    #382505
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ May 15 2014,04:54)

    Quote (jammin @ May 14 2014,19:56)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 14 2014,16:49)
    Jammin,

    Quote
    you need a psychiatrist kerwin.

    Why do you choose to cover your lack of knowledge with insults? Have you not heard the proverb “It is better for a man to keep his mouth closed and to look a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.”


    why do you choose not to accept the truth even if it is written?

    did you ask yourself that maybe you have a mind problem? why cant you accept that you have the form of HUMAN?
    a man created by God has no form of beast. that is not God's creation. you fool people.


    Jammin,

    I am not looking for a conversation from you where you choose not to seek knowledge.  Lack of knowledge is nothing to feel shame about.  The refusal to seek knowledge is something to feel shame about.

    You sit that and there and try to claim form and image are synonyms even though you should know better. If you do not know then seek to find out.  This should be that important and more to you.  

    You also choose to cast unfounded accusations against those who have done so.  Sometimes they have also stooped seeking but a different level but it is always wise to test what your hear and as well as what you believe.


    God never created HUMAN with a form of beast. i said the form in phil 2.6 is a synonym of essence and it is written in the dictionary and the bible. if i say something, i back up it with version. i am not a storyteller like you.

    #382510
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Quote
    And Paul says FLESH cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

    It does not say that.

    It instead says in part that “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God”

    I am not finished processing it as of yet.

    #382515
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ May 16 2014,07:23)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 15 2014,04:54)

    Quote (jammin @ May 14 2014,19:56)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 14 2014,16:49)
    Jammin,

    Quote
    you need a psychiatrist kerwin.

    Why do you choose to cover your lack of knowledge with insults? Have you not heard the proverb “It is better for a man to keep his mouth closed and to look a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.”


    why do you choose not to accept the truth even if it is written?

    did you ask yourself that maybe you have a mind problem? why cant you accept that you have the form of HUMAN?
    a man created by God has no form of beast. that is not God's creation. you fool people.


    Jammin,

    I am not looking for a conversation from you where you choose not to seek knowledge.  Lack of knowledge is nothing to feel shame about.  The refusal to seek knowledge is something to feel shame about.

    You sit that and there and try to claim form and image are synonyms even though you should know better. If you do not know then seek to find out.  This should be that important and more to you.  

    You also choose to cast unfounded accusations against those who have done so.  Sometimes they have also stooped seeking but a different level but it is always wise to test what your hear and as well as what you believe.


    God never created HUMAN with a form of beast. i said the form in phil 2.6 is a synonym of essence and it is written in the dictionary and the bible. if i say something, i back up it with version.  i am not a storyteller like you.


    Jammin,

    I do not want to confuse you by using the words “form of a beast” to mean two different things so I will not address it in reference to the creation of man.

    Mankind has existed in the form of a beast since he rebelled against God.  Jesus came to free us and create a new man that exists in the form of God.

    You can use essence or nature instead of form and  it all means the same thing.

    I often hear the arguments of other men from you. They are not yours as they have been around longer than you have unless you are very very ancient.

    #382517
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 16 2014,05:05)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 15 2014,11:48)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 15 2014,05:43)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 14 2014,00:37)
    Mike,

    Quote

    “Enter” is clearly implied by Paul, and explicitly STATED by Jesus in John 3.  And in Jesus' teaching, only “flesh” is mentioned, so you can't weasel out of it by saying, “Flesh and BONE is okay, as long as it's not flesh and BLOOD!”

    I assume you mean John 3:5 which has a meaning that a man cannot enter the kingdom after judgement day provide we are going by your interpretation which I disagree with.  It is not speaking of the present heaven.

    John 3:5
    King James Version (KJV)

    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


    I'm not sure what your words are actually saying – or where you found the words “new heaven” or “present heaven” in John 3.

    But what that passage teaches is that FLESH can neither see, nor enter, the kingdom of God.

    Those who wish to enter that kingdom must be born again from above – by something OTHER THAN flesh – before being able to see or enter that heavenly kingdom.  They must be born of “spirit and water” – AS OPPOSED TO “flesh”.'

    Get it?  Something OTHER THAN flesh.


    Mike,

    I am saying the passage is speaking of the new earth and the new heaven and not the current earth or the current heaven.  

    I see no need to go beyond that as it clearly is not speaking of entering the current heaven.

    What do you think Jesus was teaching about if not entering the new heaven and the new earth?


    Kerwin,

    It doesn't matter if you want to say “new heaven”, “old heaven”, “current heaven”, or “tomorrow land heaven”……… because Jesus never mentioned the word “heaven” at all.  And even if he had, it wouldn't matter WHICH heaven he was talking about.

    The fact is that flesh can ONLY give birth to more flesh.  And for that reason, those who hope to see or enter the kingdom of God must be born again from above……. of WATER and SPIRIT.  Ie:  NOT FLESH.

    If flesh could enter the kingdom of God, then there would have been no reason for Jesus to say we must be born again of something OTHER THAN flesh in order to see and enter the kingdom of God.

    Can't you see this easy teaching?

    Btw, this was a part of my daily Bible reading today:

    Psalm 148:4
    Praise him, O highest heaven, and you waters above the sky!

    This alludes to the “heavenly water” I mentioned to you a while back.  Also compare to Genesis 1:7.

    In my understanding, there is “heavenly water” that is not the same as H2O.  Those of us who are to dwell in heaven after the resurrection will be comprised of this heavenly water and spirit.

    I believe this is what the angels are already comprised of.


    Mike,

    It matters only in so much as I am intent on pointing out that 1 Corinthians 15:50 is not speaking of those who enter the current heaven, a place which will pass away.

    #382526
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ May 15 2014,19:12)
    if this phrase “form of his own God” (which you were saying) means they have the same form then i agree.


    Good enough.  I'm tired of talking about it.  :)

    Quote (jammin @ May 15 2014,19:12)
    if Christ is not equal with God, then paul should not say did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage.


    But Paul didn't say that, jammin.  You quoted the new, revised, 2011 NIV.  Here's what the original 1984 NIV said:

    Philippians 2:6 NIV 1984
    Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

    They changed it later because of those PERSONAL AGENDAS that I mentioned in my last post.

    But think it out, jammin………. if ever someone was said to be “equal to God”, it is clear that that person was NOT God.  In order to be “equal to” someone, you can't actually BE the person you are “equal to”.

    So even in the newer, butchered version of the NIV, the fact that “equality WITH God” was mentioned at all tells us that we are talking about “God” – AND someone OTHER THAN “God”.

    #382528
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ May 15 2014,19:51)
    Mike,

    Quote
    And Paul says FLESH cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

    It does not say that.

    It instead says in part that “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God”

    I am not finished processing it as of yet.


    So you think FLESH can enter, all by itself? And BLOOD can enter, all by itself?

    But they can't enter as a combination?

    Pffff………

    It doesn't matter, because Jesus only used the word FLESH, Kerwin. Jesus effectively took away your “flesh and BONE can enter” argument – long before Paul ever wrote his first letter to the Corinthians. So it's time you give it up – don't you think?

    #382530
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ May 15 2014,20:13)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 16 2014,05:05)

    Kerwin,

    It doesn't matter if you want to say “new heaven”, “old heaven”, “current heaven”, or “tomorrow land heaven”……… because Jesus never mentioned the word “heaven” at all.  And even if he had, it wouldn't matter WHICH heaven he was talking about.

    The fact is that flesh can ONLY give birth to more flesh.  And for that reason, those who hope to see or enter the kingdom of God must be born again from above……. of WATER and SPIRIT.  Ie:  NOT FLESH.

    If flesh could enter the kingdom of God, then there would have been no reason for Jesus to say we must be born again of something OTHER THAN flesh in order to see and enter the kingdom of God.

    Can't you see this easy teaching?


    Mike,

    It matters only in so much as I am intent on pointing out that 1 Corinthians 15:50 is not speaking of those who enter the current heaven, a place which will pass away.


    But you don't even know that, Kerwin.

    Luke 9:27
    “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.”

    Some of them have already been “transformed in the blink of an eye”, Kerwin. Some of these are the souls under the alter in Revelation.

    So they went to the CURRENT heaven, and they are not there in a flesh body.

    I still can't see the point of you trying to distinguish between “current heaven” and “new heaven”. I don't see how any of it changes the outcome of the discussion.

    #382544
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Quote
    So you think FLESH can enter, all by itself? And BLOOD can enter, all by itself?

    But they can't enter as a combination?

    That would be the literal interpretation. If Paul meant only flesh could not inherit then why add the words “and blood”?

    Note: Be careful not to read into my words. I am investigating not stating a conclusion.

    #382545
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Quote
    It doesn't matter, because Jesus only used the word FLESH, Kerwin.  Jesus effectively took away your “flesh and BONE can enter” argument – long before Paul ever wrote his first letter to the Corinthians.  So it's time you give it up – don't you think?

    Jesus is speaking of the renewal of the spirit, Psalms 51:10, something any teacher of God's people should know.

    That which is born of the human body is flesh while that which is born of God's spirit is spirit.  There is nothing about the body dying or transforming in the whole passage.  So you are assuming that spirit is referring to a body and that a body can either be flesh or spirit.

    John seems to be the only one that uses that form of the Greek word “gennaó” and the other places he uses it besides John 3 is 1 John 5: 1 and 4 in which he speaks of being born of God.

    #382546
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi KW,
    Ps 51
    10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

    Surely this is one of the times when spirit means soul.

Viewing 20 posts - 17,141 through 17,160 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account