John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 17,101 through 17,120 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #381832
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 12 2014,01:13)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 10 2014,22:31)
    Wakeup,

    John is saying that believers should have confidence they will be like Jesus because the will see him as he is at that time.  It sounds like the very sight of Jesus will transform them.


    Many commentators also understand it that way, Kerwin.  They think that the action of seeing Jesus as he is is what will transform them into being as he is.

    I don't hold that opinion myself.

    But since you do, the fact that those people WEREN'T transformed at all, when Jesus was on earth for that 40 days, should be enough to tell you that those people HADN'T YET “seen him as he is”.

    Agreed?


    Mike,

    I did not say I held that opinion because too many times I have found that looks can be deceiving. I think that all humans will be changed when Jesus appears a second time, and if a human happens to be dead then they will arise at that time.

    Revelations speaks of two resurrections and that altars what I believe on the subject so that I believe all the living and the righteous dead will be changed but the wicked dead will remain dead until after the Messianic age.

    #381840
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ May 10 2014,04:59)
    Jammin,

    As a human being I exist in the form/nature of the beast but my hope is to be be a son of God in which I will exist in the form/nature of God.  In this hope I seek to purify myself even as he is pure.


    you do not exist in the form of HUMAN? are you an animal?

    if you do exist in the form you HUMAN, are you not HUMAN?

    what is the form of your father? does he exist in the form of HUMAN? yes or no? if yes, do you believe that you and your father have the same form, HUMAN?

    #381841
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ May 10 2014,05:05)
    Jammin,

    Do you understand this verse?

    John 14:9
    New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

    9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?


    yes. the meaning of the verse is that HE IS THE EXACT IMAGE OF HIS FATHER.

    Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
    hath seen the Father; the perfections which are in him also; for the same that are in me are in him, and the same that are in him are in me: I am the very image of him, and am possessed of the same nature, attributes, and glory, that he is; so that he that sees the one, sees the other:

    what about you? do you understand john 1.1 that Christ was the Word and he was God?

    i know you dont because you have your own doctrine.

    #381842
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Jammin,
    Do you exist in the form of an answerphone message?

    #381862
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,May 12 2014,06:16][/quote]

    Quote
    Yes.

    Just like he and Peter were both in the state of a man when they walked on water.

    The fact that God can cause Jesus to enter a locked room doesn't prove he wasn't a man at that time, Charles.  God has caused many men in scripture to do things men can't normally do.

    Mike,

    IT IS SIMPLY IRRELEVANT WHAT KIND OF SUPERNATURAL POWER JESUS HAD!

    THE FACT THAT JESUS NEVER CAME THROUGH WALLS IN THE FIRST PLACE AT THE TOMB, DUE TO THE FACT THAT HE WAS JUST A MAN,

    IT IS ALSO A FACT THAT SINCE HE DID ENTER, HE HAD SUPERNATURAL POWER AND HE ENTERED AS A SPIRIT, THEN HE RETURNED IN HIS HUMAN STATE!

    NOT REMAINED IN HIS FLESH BODY AND ETERRED THROUGH THE WALLS!

    NOW AS YOU KNOW THE HOLY GHOST IS AN ATTRIBUTE TO GOD ALMIGHTY!

    ONLY HE SUPPLIES THE HOLY GHOST!

    THE FACT THAT JESUS SAID TO HIS APOSTLES:

    …………..: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. OBVIOUS FROM HIS HUMAN SIDE POINT OF VIEW, SINCE HE WAS STILL ON EARTH!

    AND IN JOHN 14:16 HE SAID:

    And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you ANOTHER Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever.

    ISN'T IT A PROOF ENOUGH THAT JESUS WAS IN THE GLORY OF THE FATHER? AND HE HAD ALSO THE FACULTY TO SUPPLY HIS OWN PARTICULAR HOLY GHOST! SINCE HE INTEGRATED WITH HIS SOUL, FORMERLY THE HOLY GHOST?

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #381907
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Wakeup @ May 11 2014,19:34)

    Quote (carmel @ May 12 2014,08:19)

    WHY GOD DIDN'T DO IT ALSO WHEN JESUS RESURRECTED, BUT INSTEAD HE SEND AN ANGEL TO SHIFT THE STONE?


    Carmel.

    Good question.

    The answer is because all that has to be written down for us.
    If the stones stayed closed and locked; then Mary and others would not have experienced what they saw.
    Therefore not written down.
    The broken chain lock is evidence.
    The stone door open,is evidence.
    The cloth left inside is evidence.
    The body missing is evidence,for us also.

    wakeup.


    Good answer, Wakeup. I hadn't thought of that.

    #381909
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ May 11 2014,20:31)
    Milke,

    I point to many but you do not agree with me.


    I'm only asking for ONE, Kerwin.  Point to ONE of them right now.  Show me where my understanding is NOT “based on the word of God”.

    Either that, or admit that you meant, “Mike's understanding is not based on MY PERSONAL INTERPRETATION OF the word of God.”

    I let a lot of things go on this site, Kerwin.  I mean, just count the number of times jammin called me a moron in the last week or two.

    But when someone calls me out by making a false accusation against me, that person needs to answer for it.  In jammin's case, he has every right to his opinion that I'm a moron. That kind of accusation is subjective, and doesn't require any proof.

    But you need to either PROVE that what you said is true – or retract what you said.

    You know I can be stubborn in situations like this, because you've been privy to the discussion David and I have been having in the Slavery thread, right?

    Do the right thing, Kerwin.

    #381910
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ May 12 2014,13:23)
    ISN'T IT A PROOF ENOUGH THAT JESUS WAS IN THE GLORY OF THE FATHER?


    Proof of what, Charles?

    God shares His own glory with no one. But God has indeed exalted His holy servant Jesus Christ above his companions.

    Jesus' own Father and God has given Jesus all things – to the point that Jesus can say, “What's His is mine, and what's mine is His.”

    It still doesn't make Jesus the God who gave him all those things, right?

    #381916
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ May 12 2014,10:44)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 10 2014,04:59)
    Jammin,

    As a human being I exist in the form/nature of the beast but my hope is to be be a son of God in which I will exist in the form/nature of God.  In this hope I seek to purify myself even as he is pure.


    you do not exist in the form of HUMAN? are you an animal?

    if you do exist in the form you HUMAN, are you not HUMAN?

    what is the form of your father? does he exist in the form of HUMAN? yes or no? if yes, do you believe that you and your father have the same form, HUMAN?


    Jammin,

    I am a beast in nature as I yet fall of God's glory. My hope is to be God in nature and therefore not fall short of his glory. Perhaps one day you will come understand my words.

    #381919
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ May 12 2014,10:50)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 10 2014,05:05)
    Jammin,

    Do you understand this verse?

    John 14:9
    New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

    9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?


    yes. the meaning of the verse is that HE IS THE EXACT IMAGE OF HIS FATHER.

    Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
    hath seen the Father; the perfections which are in him also; for the same that are in me are in him, and the same that are in him are in me: I am the very image of him, and am possessed of the same nature, attributes, and glory, that he is; so that he that sees the one, sees the other:

    what about you? do you understand john 1.1 that Christ was the Word and he was God?

    i know you dont because you have your own doctrine.


    Jammin,

    Gill is using many vague terms and his meaning is open to interpretation.  More than likely there is more context in his further words than the few you supplied.

    I very much doubt that Gill believed that Jesus' outward appearance was the same as God's.  God is revealed in Jesus' words and actions just as Jesus is seen in those believers that are mature. In this was the nature of God is revealed in those that believe.

    #381922
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ May 13 2014,10:45)

    Quote (jammin @ May 12 2014,10:50)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 10 2014,05:05)
    Jammin,

    Do you understand this verse?

    John 14:9
    New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

    9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?


    yes. the meaning of the verse is that HE IS THE EXACT IMAGE OF HIS FATHER.

    Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
    hath seen the Father; the perfections which are in him also; for the same that are in me are in him, and the same that are in him are in me: I am the very image of him, and am possessed of the same nature, attributes, and glory, that he is; so that he that sees the one, sees the other:

    what about you? do you understand john 1.1 that Christ was the Word and he was God?

    i know you dont because you have your own doctrine.


    Jammin,

    Gill is using many vague terms and his meaning is open to interpretation.  More than likely there is more context in his further words than the few you supplied.

    I very much doubt that Gill believed that Jesus' outward appearance was the same as God's.  God is revealed in Jesus' words and actions just as Jesus is seen in those believers that are mature. In this was the nature of God is revealed in those that believe.


    gill is a bible scholar.

    In 1748, Gill was awarded the honorary degree of Doctor of Divinity by the University of Aberdeen. He was a profound scholar and a prolific author. His most important works are:

    The Doctrine of the Trinity Stated and Vindicated (London, 1731)
    The Cause of God and Truth (4 parts, 1735–8), a retort to Daniel Whitby's Five Points
    An Exposition of the New Testament (3 vols., 1746–8), which with his Exposition of the Old Testament (6 vols., 1748–63) forms his magnum opus
    A Collection of Sermons and Tracts[1]
    A Dissertation Concerning the Antiquity of the Hebrew Language, Letters, Vowel-Points, and Accents (1767)[1]
    A Body of Doctrinal Divinity (1767)
    A Body of Practical Divinity (1770).

    what about you kerwin? you are nothing. you have nothing to offer just like the other false teachers here.
    you offer stories and fairy tale doctrine but cant be read in the bible.

    you are a clown. hahaha

    #381923
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ May 13 2014,10:40)

    Quote (jammin @ May 12 2014,10:44)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 10 2014,04:59)
    Jammin,

    As a human being I exist in the form/nature of the beast but my hope is to be be a son of God in which I will exist in the form/nature of God.  In this hope I seek to purify myself even as he is pure.


    you do not exist in the form of HUMAN? are you an animal?

    if you do exist in the form you HUMAN, are you not HUMAN?

    what is the form of your father? does he exist in the form of HUMAN? yes or no? if yes, do you believe that you and your father have the same form, HUMAN?


    Jammin,

    I am a beast in nature as I yet fall of God's glory.  My hope is to be God in nature and therefore not fall short of his glory. Perhaps one day you will come understand my words.


    so you are not HUMAN? is that what are you trying to say?

    you need psychiatrist. hahahah

    #381924
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 12 2014,15:51)
    Hi Jammin,
    Do you exist in the form of an answerphone message?


    i exist in the form of hUMAN. i am HUMAN just like my father.

    and you???are you an animal? what is your form or nature?

    #381931
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 13 2014,05:16)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 11 2014,20:31)
    Milke,

    I point to many but you do not agree with me.


    I'm only asking for ONE, Kerwin.  Point to ONE of them right now.  Show me where my understanding is NOT “based on the word of God”.

    Either that, or admit that you meant, “Mike's understanding is not based on MY PERSONAL INTERPRETATION OF the word of God.”

    I let a lot of things go on this site, Kerwin.  I mean, just count the number of times jammin called me a moron in the last week or two.

    But when someone calls me out by making a false accusation against me, that person needs to answer for it.  In jammin's case, he has every right to his opinion that I'm a moron.  That kind of accusation is subjective, and doesn't require any proof.

    But you need to either PROVE that what you said is true – or retract what you said.

    You know I can be stubborn in situations like this, because you've been privy to the discussion David and I have been having in the Slavery thread, right?

    Do the right thing, Kerwin.


    Mike,

    You would have to agree with that one and if you did we would not disagree on it.

    Unless you have changed your opinion 1 Corinthians 15:50 is a good example.

    Weymouth New Testament
    But this I tell you, brethren: our mortal bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, nor will what is perishable inherit what is imperishable.

    International Standard Version
    Brothers, this is what I mean: Mortal bodies cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and what decays cannot inherit what does not decay.

    Both of these expert witnesses state mortal bodies cannot inherit the kingdom of God and yet you toss them out as true translations because they do not fit your idea of what 1 Corinthians 15:50 means. You present no evidence to disprove them but they do not agree with the doctrine you have chosen to embrace.

    NET Bible
    Now this is what I am saying, brothers and sisters: Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

    You want this verse to be speaking of the present heaven and so you fix it in your mind that it does even though it is talking about inheriting the new earth and/or the new heaven.

    You want it to mean enter when instead it states inherit.

    You want it to mean only spirit bodies when it at most states bodies composed of both flesh and blood cannot inherit the world to come.

    You want it to mean all flesh so you say it means flesh and bone bodies when it does not state nor are they included in the words flesh and blood; especially if you take the later literally.

    In short 1 Corinthians does not say or mean what you have insisted it does and yet you refuse to admit it.

    #381935
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ May 13 2014,05:54)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 13 2014,10:45)

    Quote (jammin @ May 12 2014,10:50)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 10 2014,05:05)
    Jammin,

    Do you understand this verse?

    John 14:9
    New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

    9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?


    yes. the meaning of the verse is that HE IS THE EXACT IMAGE OF HIS FATHER.

    Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
    hath seen the Father; the perfections which are in him also; for the same that are in me are in him, and the same that are in him are in me: I am the very image of him, and am possessed of the same nature, attributes, and glory, that he is; so that he that sees the one, sees the other:

    what about you? do you understand john 1.1 that Christ was the Word and he was God?

    i know you dont because you have your own doctrine.


    Jammin,

    Gill is using many vague terms and his meaning is open to interpretation.  More than likely there is more context in his further words than the few you supplied.

    I very much doubt that Gill believed that Jesus' outward appearance was the same as God's.  God is revealed in Jesus' words and actions just as Jesus is seen in those believers that are mature. In this was the nature of God is revealed in those that believe.


    gill is a bible scholar.

    In 1748, Gill was awarded the honorary degree of Doctor of Divinity by the University of Aberdeen. He was a profound scholar and a prolific author. His most important works are:

    The Doctrine of the Trinity Stated and Vindicated (London, 1731)
    The Cause of God and Truth (4 parts, 1735–8), a retort to Daniel Whitby's Five Points
    An Exposition of the New Testament (3 vols., 1746–8), which with his Exposition of the Old Testament (6 vols., 1748–63) forms his magnum opus
    A Collection of Sermons and Tracts[1]
    A Dissertation Concerning the Antiquity of the Hebrew Language, Letters, Vowel-Points, and Accents (1767)[1]
    A Body of Doctrinal Divinity (1767)
    A Body of Practical Divinity (1770).

    what about you kerwin? you are nothing. you have nothing to offer just like the other false teachers here.
    you offer stories and fairy tale doctrine but cant be read in the bible.

    you are a clown. hahaha


    Jammin,

    What is knowledge without the Spirit?

    Since Gill is so knowledgeable then perhaps he should be more clear. Of course he might be if I read more of what he is saying.

    Jesus is the exact image of God because he does what he sees God doing and says what he sees God say. It is not about physical appearance or being the same kind as God.

    #381936
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ May 13 2014,05:55)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 13 2014,10:40)

    Quote (jammin @ May 12 2014,10:44)

    Quote (kerwin @ May 10 2014,04:59)
    Jammin,

    As a human being I exist in the form/nature of the beast but my hope is to be be a son of God in which I will exist in the form/nature of God.  In this hope I seek to purify myself even as he is pure.


    you do not exist in the form of HUMAN? are you an animal?

    if you do exist in the form you HUMAN, are you not HUMAN?

    what is the form of your father? does he exist in the form of HUMAN? yes or no? if yes, do you believe that you and your father have the same form, HUMAN?


    Jammin,

    I am a beast in nature as I yet fall of God's glory.  My hope is to be God in nature and therefore not fall short of his glory. Perhaps one day you will come understand my words.


    so you are not HUMAN? is that what are you trying to say?

    you need psychiatrist. hahahah


    Jammin,

    I said what I said.

    #381994
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,May 13 2014,10:25][/quote]

    Quote
    God shares His own glory with no one.

    God has given Jesus all things – to the point that Jesus can say,

    “What's His is mine, and what's mine is His.”  

    Mike,

    I SAID

    JESUS WAS IN THE GLORY OF THE FATHER?

    WHICH MEANS THAT JESUS ACQUIRED ALL THE FATHER'S ATTRIBUTES!

    WHICH YOU ALSO CONFIRMED THAT JESUS OWNS ALL WHAT THE FATHER HAS, AND THE FATHER OWNS ALL WHAT JESUS HAS!

    AND TO YOU THAT STATEMENT IS NOT EQUIVALENT AS SHARING!

    AND HOW IT IS!

    FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT IF GOD GAVE ALL HIS THINGS TO JESUS IN A WAY THAT HE BECAME EMPTY HANDED,

    THAT WOULD MEAN, THAT GOD PART EXCHANGED HIS THINGS WITH JESUS'

    BUT SINCE HE GAVE ALL HIS THINGS, AND STILL OWNS WHAT HE OWNED, IT IS DEFINITELY SHARING! NO?

    SO YOU BETTER DEFINE WHAT YOUR INTELLIGENCE ESTABLISHED WITHIN YOUR BRAINS,

    NOW IN JOHN 13:32 HE SAID:

    If God be glorified in him, God also will

    GLORIFY HIM IN HIMSELF;

    and immediately will he glorify him.

    IN HIMSELF MIKE!

    OK? JESUS WAS IN THE GLORY OF THE FATHER, WHEN HE ENTERED THOSE WALLS! MR………………….

    NOT AS YOU SAID GOD MADE JESUS ENTER THOSE WALLS IN THE HUMAN STATE! BUT IT WAS HIS OWN SUPERNATURAL STATE WHICH YOU ALSO CONFIRMED AND SAID THAT HE GAVE HIM ALL THINGS

    SO IF IT WAS GIVEN IT BELONGS TO HIM! ETERNALLY!

    IN JOHN 17 HE SAID:

    …………….glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee.

    OK?  JESUS ASKED THE FATHER:

    GLORIFY ME!

    AND I WILL GLORIFY YOU IN RETURN!

    NOW WHAT DO YOU CALL THAT! MR……………….

    PART EXCHANGE OR SHARING!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #382064
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote
    You have a right to your own understanding as well.

    Mike,

    I WOULD APPRECIATE IT IF YOU WERE TO PROOF OTHERWISE WITH SCRIPTURES!

    SO WHAT CONVINCED YOU SO MUCH THAT MADE YOU BELIEVE THAT HE NEVER HAD HIS SPIRITUAL BODY WHILE HE WAS ON EARTH?

    MIKE, REFLECT!

    WOULD IT HAVE BEEN A GLORY,FOR JESUS, AND GOD ALMIGHTY,

    IF HE DIDN'T WALK ON EARTH AND MANIFESTED HIS AND THE UNIQUE HIGHEST SPIRITUAL STATE ON HIS ENEMIES' PLANET?

    IT WAS THE PINNACLE POINT OF GOD'S SUCCESS OF HIS INCARNATION

    IT WAS EITHER GOD OR SATANA!

    ON SATANA'S OWN GROUND, AND PRINCIPALS

    WHO OWNS ETERNALLY THE FLESH BODY!

    AND JESUS' MASSACRED HIS, SIMPLY TO GLORIFY IT! AND GIVE ETERNAL LIFE TO ALL HUMANS!

    AND THIS WAS SUPPOSED TO BE SATANA'S

    Luke 8:18 …………..For whosoever hath, to him shall be given: and whosoever hath not, that also which he thinketh he hath, shall be taken away from him.

    IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A FARCE NOT A VICTORY FOR GOD ALMIGHTY! NEVER MIND CALL IT A GLORY!

    Jeremiah 32:Behold I am the Lord the God of all flesh: shall any thing be hard for me?

    SIMPLY READING THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE IS ENOUGH TO CONVINCE YOU THAT JESUS WALKED ON EARTH AND MANIFESTED HIS DEITY, IN FULL!

    WHEN SATANA ACHIEVES HIS IT WOULD ONLY MEAN
    THE END OF HIM

    Job 20:20 And yet his belly was not filled: and when he hath the things he coveted,

    HE SHALL NOT BE ABLE TO POSSESS THEM!

    MIKE JESUS APPEARED TO 500 PEOPLE AT ONE TIME!

    SO JESUS WAS IN HIS UNIQUE SUPERNATURAL STATE, AND HE MANIFESTED BOTH HIS SPIRITUAL AND FLESH STATE, DURING THOSE FORTY  DAYS HE WAS ON EARTH!

    I POSTED A PARTICULAR POST WHICH IF YOU WERE REALLY A BIT INTERESTED IN THE TRUTH,YOU WOULD HAVE GIVEN AN ANSWER TO IT!

    I POSTED AND SHOWED YOU THE DIFFERENCES IN THE NARRATIONS OF THE EVENT OF JESUS' RESURRECTION, WHICH THEY ARE NOT ERRORS, BUT A CLEAR EVIDENCE THAT JESUS MANIFESTED HIS TWO DIFFERENT STATES, HIS TWO NATURES, THE SON OF GOD, AND THE SON OF MAN

    ARE YOU INTERESTED TO ANALYZE WHAT I POSTED FOR GOD'S TRUTH SAKE

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #382122
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ May 12 2014,17:56)
    what is your form or nature?


    Which one are you asking about, jammin?

    The words mean two different things.

    #382127
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ May 12 2014,18:06)

    Weymouth New Testament
    But this I tell you, brethren: our mortal bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, nor will what is perishable inherit what is imperishable.

    International Standard Version
    Brothers, this is what I mean: Mortal bodies cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and what decays cannot inherit what does not decay.

    Both of these expert witnesses state mortal bodies cannot inherit the kingdom of God and yet you toss them out as true translations because they do not fit your idea of what 1 Corinthians 15:50 means.  You present no evidence to disprove them but they do not agree with the doctrine you have chosen to embrace.


    The word “mortal” is not in the Greek scripture, Kerwin.  But if your “expert witnesses” understand “flesh” to mean “mortal”, and our future bodies will NOT BE “mortal”, there is a strong implication that those future bodies will not be “flesh” either.

    Besides……. flesh, blood AND bone are all “mortal”.  All three of those things decay.  So even if you insist on your expert's addition of the word “mortal” in 1 Cor 15:50, you still can't say, “Well, only the blood part of the human body is mortal, and therefore the flesh and bone parts CAN inherit the kingdom of God – because those parts don't decay.”

    Well, I guess you CAN say it, but most people will probably think you're off your rocker.

    Also, I don't need to present any evidence to disprove your translations above, because they have ADDED words into the text.  Why would I need to “disprove” words that weren't even in the original teaching?  Nor would I even try to disprove them anyway, since I agree with them that our mortal flesh bodies cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven.

    Quote (kerwin @ May 12 2014,18:06)
    You want it to mean all flesh so you say it means flesh and bone bodies when it does not state nor are they included in the words flesh and blood; especially if you take the later literally.


    Kerwin, you'd be surprised at how many of the phrases “flesh and blood” in the OT are literally “BONE and flesh” in the Hebrew text.  The phrases mean the same thing.  

    The scholars who translated “BONE and flesh” as “flesh and BLOOD” knew this.  They altered it to “flesh and BLOOD” in our Bibles, because although the phrases mean the same thing, we rarely, if ever, use “flesh and BONE” in English.

    Compare:

    2 Samuel 19:13 NIV
    And say to Amasa, ‘Are you not my own flesh and blood?

    2 Samuel 19:13 KJV
    And say ye to Amasa, Art thou not of my bone, and of my flesh?

    Quote (kerwin @ May 12 2014,18:06)
    You want it to mean enter when instead it states inherit.  


    “Enter” is clearly implied by Paul, and explicitly STATED by Jesus in John 3.  And in Jesus' teaching, only “flesh” is mentioned, so you can't weasel out of it by saying, “Flesh and BONE is okay, as long as it's not flesh and BLOOD!”

    Quote (kerwin @ May 12 2014,18:06)
    In short 1 Corinthians does not say or mean what you have insisted it does and yet you refuse to admit it.


    It teaches EXACTLY what I've been saying, Kerwin.  And I came to that understanding from the written word of God.

    Paul says we have already borne one kind of body, and that we will bear a different kind of body after the resurrection.  The body we have all borne is flesh, Kerwin.  So what kind of “DIFFERENT THAN FLESH” bodies do those in heaven have?  They have SPIRIT bodies, just like their God who created them.

    But the real bottom line is this:  You might not INTERPRET these scriptures the same way that I, and MILLIONS OF OTHERS, interpret them……. but you have no cause to say that my interpretation is “not based on the word of God”.  Because it is clear that millions of others also understand those scriptures the same way that I do.

    Understand?  You don't have to agree with our understanding; but you can't possibly claim that our understanding isn't based on the word of God.

    Besides, you should know by now that my doctrine comes SOLEY from the scriptures that I research over and over on a daily basis here. I am at odds with the “status quo” more times than not around here, BECAUSE I base my understanding directly on the word of God, and not popularity with others.

Viewing 20 posts - 17,101 through 17,120 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account