John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 16,901 through 16,920 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #380246
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ May 01 2014,07:46)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2014,11:04)
    John 3:16
    For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


    john 3.16 said those who believe will have eternal life. it is not the same as being ETERNAL.

    do you understand english boy? hahahaha

    that is the most ridiculous explanation i have ever heard! hahaha


    Actually, I DO understand English, jammin.  On the other hand, it seems you sometimes struggle with it.

    If I am granted eternal life, then I – from that moment on – will be an eternal being.  I would be ETERNAL, jammin.

    On the contrary, being ETERNAL does NOT necessarily mean FROM eternity.

    Angels were created as ETERNAL beings – never to die.  That doesn't mean the angels are FROM eternity.

    Consider:

    Matthew 25:41
    Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”

    Does the fact that the fire is ETERNAL mean that fire has existed FROM eternity?  NO.  It only means that the fire WILL last forever.

    So the word “eternal” doesn't always mean “FROM eternity”, jammin.

    #380247
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ May 01 2014,07:46)
    what a miserable doctrine you have mike. hahaha


    Says the guy who nonsensically believes that the Son, Messiah, Priest, Prophet, Lamb, and Holy Servant OF God can actually BE the very God he is all those things OF. ???

    #380248
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ May 01 2014,08:00)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2014,11:17)

    Quote (jammin @ April 29 2014,10:53)
    Gill said God is nothing but nature and essence. do you believe that? you just cut and paste the short phrase of gill's commentary.


    That's right.  I cut and pasted the ONLY part that had to do with our discussion, jammin.

    We weren't discussing who thinks Jesus is “God by nature”, and who doesn't.  We were discussing whether the word “God” in Phil 2:6 referred to a PERSON – or to a “nature/species”.

    And the very first words out of Gill's mouth made it abundantly clear that he thinks the “God” mentioned in Phil 2:6 is “the Father”.

    Why would I post more of his commentary, when all I needed for THIS DISCUSSION was right there in his first words?   ???


    because you dont understand what gill really said.

    let me post the whole thing

    Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

    Who being in the form of God,…. The Father; being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person…………..

    therefore, GILL IS NOT SUPPORTING YOUR FAIRY TALE DOCTRINE. poor mike.

    hahahaha


    jammin,

    WHO does Gill think the “God” is in Phil 2:6?

    It seems to me he says the word “God” refers to THE FATHER.  That means Gill DOESN'T think the word “God” refers to a “nature/species” known as “God”.

    So Gill is indeed supporting me on the thing we were actually discussing.

    #380249
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ May 01 2014,08:01)
    hahaha.

    mike
    profile

    studied at UNIVERSITY OF MORON… hahaha


    If this “moron” proves YOU wrong every step of the way – often using your own TRINITARIAN scholars to do so – then what does that make YOU? :)

    #380250
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ May 01 2014,10:23)
    NOW READ AND DISCERN THE TRUTH!

    21 As the Father hath sent me, I also send you.


    I do, Charles. I read the truth that the one who SENDS is greater than the one who was SENT. I learned that truth from Jesus himself.

    So, from that simple line in the quote box above, we can learn that Jesus is greater than the disciples he SENT. And we can learn that the Father is greater than His holy servant Jesus, whom He SENT.

    It's high time that YOU learn to “read and discern the truth”.

    Charles, Jesus and you have the same exact God. Since Jesus' God isn't some weird combination of Father, Son, Ex-Holy Spirit, Satan, or whatever…… then neither is YOUR God.

    YOUR one and only Most High God is the VERY SAME one and only Most High God Jesus himself has. I also learned that truth from Jesus himself.

    #380251
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ May 01 2014,11:08)
    Mike,

    Quote
    In other words, Jesus appeared to the two disciples in a different “outward appearance” than he had when he was with Mary earlier, right?

    So my point is that we KNOW the word means “outward appearance” in Mark 16:12.  And the definition “outward appearance” also works just fine for both uses in Phil 2.

    The word form in Mark 16 works just like the Koine Greek word to express outward appearance but it does not work to express outward appearance in the statement “a form of godliness”.

    Humans and angels have the same outward appearance so that is not a definition you go by in Philippians 2.   We exist in the form of angels, at least externally.


    Kerwin,

    Angels have wings.  We don't.  Cherubim have four different faces.  We don't.  Some angels have eyes in their hands.  We don't.

    Can you see how your stubbornness concerning “spiritual flesh angels” is leading you astray elsewhere as well?  We can.

    My point stands.  The word “morphe” in Mark 16:12 CLEARLY and UNDENIABLY refers to a different “OUTWARD APPEARANCE” that Jesus had.

    And the ONLY reason to not assume it means the same exact thing in Phil 2 is if you already have preconceived notions you must protect.

    For example, you have already decided on your own that God doesn't have an outward appearance at all.  And because of that preconceived notion you must protect, you are forced to argue against an “outward appearance” meaning of “morphe” in Phil 2 – despite KNOWING that the same word refers to “outward appearance” in Mark 16.

    That, my friend, is your own problem.  And only you can sort it out for yourself.  I have no such dilemma, because I have no such preconceived notion to protect.

    #380252
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 01 2014,13:35)
    Hi KW,
    No mention of angels here

    1 Corinthians 15:39
    All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.


    I'll take that point one step further, Nick:

    1 Corinthians 15
    39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

    40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

    After Paul explained the different kinds of flesh the terrestrial bodies have, he went even further by pointing out the difference between those terrestrial bodies and the celestial bodies of heaven.

    The idea is that “FLESH” is a thing TERRESTRIAL bodies are made of…… not a thing CELESTIAL bodies are made of.

    #380254
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ May 01 2014,14:30)
    [quote=mikeboll64,April 30 2014,11:04][/quote]

    Quote
    whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

    This verse sums up the entire NT.  Who did our ONE and ONLY God “give”, jammin?  Himself?  Or His Son?

    You need to learn the difference between the two.

    Mike,

    IN  WHOM SHALL WE BELIEVE TO HAVE ETERNAL LIFE?

    IN THE FATHER  OR   IN HIS SON?

    WHO IS THEREFORE OUR ETERNAL LIFE FATHER?

    THE FATHER OR THE SON?

    You need to learn the difference between the two


    John 12
    44 Then Jesus cried out, “Whoever believes in me does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me.

    49 For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken.

    50 I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”

    There's that pesky “SENT” again, Charles. Remind me……… who did Jesus say was greater: the one who SENDS – or the one who was SENT?

    At any rate, it's clear that by believing in Jesus we are believing also in the GREATER one who SENT Jesus into the world as His sacrificial lamb.

    John 1:12
    Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God………..

    Not children of HIMSELF, Charles…….. but children of his and our God, Jehovah.

    “Jesus” is the one name JEHOVAH gave by which we can be saved. Don't confuse the sacrificial lamb with the one who sacrificed it on our behalf.

    #380294
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 02 2014,10:45)
    WHO does Gill think the “God” is in Phil 2:6?

    It seems to me he says the word “God” refers to THE FATHER.  That means Gill DOESN'T think the word “God” refers to a “nature/species” known as “God”.

    So Gill is indeed supporting me on the thing we were actually discussing.


    really? hahaha

    that is only your OPINION.

    let me post what gill said

    Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

    but this phrase, “the form of God”, is to be understood of the nature and essence of God, and describes Christ as he was from all eternity;

    poor mike. you are a moron. hahaha

    #380296
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote

    Actually,I DO understand English, jammin.  On the other hand, it seems you sometimes struggle with it.

    If I am granted eternal life, then I – from that moment on – will be an eternal being.  I would be ETERNAL, jammin.

    On the contrary, being ETERNAL does NOT necessarily mean FROM eternity.

    Angels were created as ETERNAL beings – never to die.  That doesn't mean the angels are FROM eternity.

    Consider:

    Matthew 25:41
    Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”

    Does the fact that the fire is ETERNAL mean that fire has existed FROM eternity?  NO.  It only means that the fire WILL last forever.

    So the word “eternal” doesn't always mean “FROM eternity”, jammin.


    as i said, john 3.16 has nothing to do with phil 2.6.

    i do not know what school did you come from. it seems that you were not able to develop your reading skill.

    ill repeat what matthew said.
    Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

    2:5-11 The example of our Lord Jesus Christ is set before us. We must resemble him in his life, if we would have the benefit of his death. Notice the two natures of Christ; his Divine nature, and human nature. Who being in the form of God, partaking the Divine nature, as the eternal and only-begotten Son of God, Joh 1:1,

    did you notice that matthew gave john 1.1 to support his explanation for phil 2.6?
    it is really hard to speak to a moron like you because i need to repeat myself over and over again.

    let me post what matthew said about john 1.1
    Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

    1:1-5 The plainest reason why the Son of God is called the Word, seems to be, that as our words explain our minds to others, so was the Son of God sent in order to reveal his Father's mind to the world. What the evangelist says of Christ proves that he is God.

    God is eternal. Christ is God just like his father. he is from eternity.

    therefore, matthew not is supporting your fairy tale doctrine as well.

    #380297
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ April 30 2014,04:28)

    Quote (jammin @ April 29 2014,22:47)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 29 2014,13:22)

    Quote (jammin @ April 27 2014,15:41)
    Mike

    You dont understand again what barclay said. Hahahaha you are a moron. Ill post it again

    Morphe (Greek #3444) is the essential form which never alters…………


    Read Mark 16:12, jammin.

    Did Jesus appear to them in a DIFFERENT morphe?  YES.

    Was Jesus' “essential form” altered?  Or just his “outward appearance”?

    Which one?


    the morphe is HUMANITY. do you understand what barclay said?

    i told you to study greek. you are a great pretender hahaha.

    you will never understand that because you have no knowledge about the greek language.

    the essential form is still HUMANITY.


    Jammin,

    You need to rethink what you just wrote as Jesus appeared to the two as a different human being.  He still looked like the human he is.


    one form, HUMANITY.
    do you understand?

    #380298
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2014,04:08)

    Quote (jammin @ April 26 2014,20:42)
    There are two Greek words for form, morphe (Greek #3444) and schema (Greek #4976). They must both be translated form, because there is no other English equivalent, but they do not mean the same thing. Morphe (Greek #3444) is the essential form which never alters; schema (Greek #4976) is the outward form which changes from time to time and from circumstance to circumstance. For instance, the morphe (Greek #3444) of any human being is humanity and this never changes; but his schema (Greek #4976) is continually changing. A baby, a child, a boy, a youth, a man of middle age, an old man always have the morphe (Greek #3444) of humanity, but the outward schema (Greek #4976) changes all the time. — WILLIAM BARCLAY


    This information cannot be accurate, since Barclay says “morphe” never changes, and “schema” does change from time to time.

    It doesn't work because Mark 16:12 says Jesus appeared to them in a DIFFERENT “morphe”.  But Barclay says “morphe” never changes.

    It also doesn't work because of the teaching in Phil 2:6 itself, which clearly says Jesus was in one “morphe” before being CHANGED to a different “morphe”.

    I have respect for the knowledge of the scholars, and often learn many things from them.  But you must also check the things they write, since they are just men like us, and as such, are prone to human mistakes like we are.  We must also remember that the vast majority of those scholars come into it with their own BIASES, and those biases often taint their conclusions.

    This is why I told you that the word “morphe” means “outward appearance”, and not “nature”.  

    1.  “God” is a PERSON, not a “nature”.
    2.  “A servant” is a PERSON, not a “nature”.
    3.  In Mark 16:12, Jesus did not appear to them in a different “nature”.

    I'm in the process of reading the NET Bible, cover to cover.  I read every footnote they have, and you'd be surprised at all the Hebrew and Greek words they simply don't KNOW the definition of, and so they make “educated guesses” about what those words really meant.

    They use context, and search out Aramaic, Arabic, and Akkadian cognates (base forms of the same word) to help them “guess” what the Hebrew word might have meant.

    In the case of “morphe”, some of them are “guessing” that it must also have a hidden meaning of “nature” – simply because they can't fathom God having a “form”, or “outward appearance”.

    But God DOES have an outward appearance – so the search to come up with a different meaning of “morphe” is really unnecessary.

    Nevertheless, this is how they do it, jammin.  This is how they translate the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek words of scripture into English the best they can.


    let me the post the profile of barclay

    While professor, he decided to dedicate his life to “making the best biblical scholarship available to the average reader”. The eventual result was the Daily Study Bible, a set of 17 commentaries on the New Testament, published by Saint Andrew Press, the Church of Scotland's publishing house. Despite the series name, these commentaries do not set a program of regular study. Rather, they go verse by verse through Barclay's own translation of the New Testament, listing and examining every possible interpretation known to Barclay and providing all the background information he considered possibly relevant, all in layman's terms. The commentaries were fully updated with the help of William Barclay's son, Ronnie Barclay, in recent years and they are now known as the New Daily Study Bible series.

    and here is the profile of mike

    studied at university of moron.

    hahaha

    #380310
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jammin………….If you don't see Jesus as a pure human being who came into existence at the time of his berth on this earth, You simply do not see Jesus as he really is , and you have bought into the biggest LIE ever taught by SATAN and His Churches. THE DOCTRINE OF “SEPARATION”   that makes Jesus our brother “DIFFERENT” then we are and moves His Identity away from ours. This also destroys the Plan God has for “ALL” HUMANITY It is SATAN who has moved you away from Jesus and your relating with Him by the LIE that Jesus is a God. 2 th 2.

    peace and love to you and yours………………………….gene

    #380311
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,May 01 2014,12:20][/quote]

    Quote
    He is, however, the redeemer of all human beings, who are brothers and sisters to him – not sons and daughters.

    Mike,

    JESUS IS THE REDEEMER OF ALL HUMANITY! RIGHT?

    NOW READ THIS SCRIPTURE:

    1Peter 1 BEING BORN AGAIN  

    not of corruptible seed, but incorruptible,

    BY THE WORD OF GOD WHO LIVES AND REMAINS FOR EVER

    NOW ANSWER:

    SINCE WE ARE BORN AGAIN ACCORDING TO THIS SCRIPTURE ABOVE,

    BY WHOM ARE WE BORN AGAIN?

    THEREFORE:

    WHO IS OUR FATHER?

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #380314
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    The angels that visited Lot, Abraham id not have wings and were said in Scripture to have same outward appearance of humans.

    If you desire to claim that outward appearance varies among angels then I will go along but it still opposes your chosen interpretation of Philippians 2.

    #380317
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,May 01 2014,12:38][/quote]

    Quote
    In either case, the BEING who is “Mike” is not actually “from eternity”, because he was created.

    Mike,

    GOD COULDN'T CARE LESS FOR THE FLESH!

    GOD SENT HIS SON TO REDEEM HUMANITY 'S SOULS,

    NOT FLESH!

    SO MIKE THE MORTAL BEING IS NOT GOD'S INTEREST, BUT SATAN'S!

    Quote
    In either case, the BEING who is “Mike” is not actually “from eternity”, because he was created.

    And the BEING who is “Jesus” is also not actually “from eternity”, because he also was created.

    Mike,

    IT IS THE FACT THAT JESUS WAS NOT CREATED,

    MADE HIM

    NOT AN IDENTICAL BEING LIKE US

    HE IS THE SOURCE OF ETERNAL LIFE TO ALL CREATURES!

    SO WE ARE ETERNAL THROUGH THE PRESENCE OF THE WORD WITHIN US!

    NOT THROUGH OUR OWN SUBSTANCE!

    FROM THE OTHER HAND

    THE SON IS THE WORD ITSELF!  

    AND THE SON HAS LIFE IN HIMSELF!

    HE IS THE ETERNAL LIFE GIVING SPIRIT!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #380343
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,May 02 2014,11:28][/quote]

    Quote
    There's that pesky “SENT” again, Charles.  

    Mike,

    READ AGAIN THE GOSPEL:

    whoever believes in HIM shall not perish but have eternal life.

    AND YOU SAID:

    that pesky “SENT” again, Charles.

    MIKE HOW ON EARTH HUMANS COULD BELIEVE IN GOD'S SON, WITHOUT SENDING HIM OVER TO HUMAN'S PLANET?

    SO,IT IS IRRELATIVE TO MY QUESTIONS!

    ALSO THE FACT THAT GOD ALMIGHTY SENT HIS SON,

    HE AUTOMATICALLY CONFIRMED THAT HE WAS IN A WAY OF NO USE REGARDING THE FLESH BEINGS, AS A PRINCIPAL THE FEMALE FACTOR, THE DAUGHTERS! SATANA'S OWNERSHIP!

    I SAID ALREADY:

    THE FATHER COULDN'T CARE LESS FOR THE FLESH, IT IS NOT HIS ENTITY BUT HIS OPPONENT'S SATANA!

    HIS OWN INTEREST ARE THE SONS, THE SOULS SPIRITS

    AND IT IS CONFIRMED ALSO HEREUNDER  

    And a voice came out of the cloud, saying: This is my beloved Son; HEAR HIM.

    OK? JESUS WAS IN FLESH, SATANA'S SUPPOSED OWNERSHIP!

    SO GOD THE FATHER LITERALLY DECLARED THAT HE, GOD ALMIGHTY HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH HUMANS ANY MORE!

    AFTER ALL HUMANS ARE FILTHY FLESH AND ONLY THEIR ONLY TRUE GOD OF FLESH COULD SPEAK TO THEM!

    SO AGAIN:

    You need to learn the difference between the two

    NOW THESE WERE MY QUESTIONS:

    IN  WHOM SHALL WE BELIEVE TO HAVE ETERNAL LIFE?

    IN THE FATHER  OR   IN HIS SON?

    WHO IS THEREFORE OUR ETERNAL LIFE FATHER?

    THE FATHER OR THE SON?

    ANSWER AND SWALLOW THE TRUTH!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #380344
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote
    John 1:12
    Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God………..

    Not children of HIMSELF, Charles…….. but children of his and our God, Jehovah.

    Mike,

    FIRST OF ALL YOUR SCRIPTURES ARE CORRUPTED!

    READ:

    But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the SONS OF GOD, to them that believe in his name.

    NOT CHILDREN BECAUSE GOD ALMIGHTY HAS NO DAUGHTERS, FLESH ONLY SONS!  SOULS

    BUT FOR YOUR A ARGUMENT SAKE!

    YOU ALWAYS LOOK FROM ONE ASPECT OF GOD!

    THE ONE WHO NEVER GLORIFIED, AND REMAINED A SPIRIT THE USELESS GOD REGARDING THE MORTAL HUMAN FLESH BEINGS THE EX DAUGHTER, FACTOR, SATANA'S OWNERSHIP

    IT IS THE FACT THAT ONLY ALL WHO RECEIVE AND BELIEVE IN JESUS' NAME , THE ONLY TRUE SPIRIT/ FLESH GOD!

    JESUS THE ONLY TRUE SPIRIT/FLESH GOD HIMSELF GAVE THEM THE RIGHT TO BECOME FOR THE FIRST EVER TIME  THE CHILDREN OF THE ONLY TRUE SPIRIT/FLESH GOD SINCE ONLY JESUS AS GOD'S ONLY SUBSTANCE  CAME IN FLESH ON EARTH!

    OR MORE APPROPRIATE:

    THE CHILDREN, MALES AND FEMALES, SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF:

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST

    SO AGAIN:

    You need to learn the difference between the two

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #380345
    terraricca
    Participant

    charles

    Quote
    SO AGAIN:

    You need to learn the difference between the two

    NOW THESE WERE MY QUESTIONS:

    1)IN WHOM SHALL WE BELIEVE TO HAVE ETERNAL LIFE?

    IN THE FATHER OR IN HIS SON?

    2)WHO IS THEREFORE OUR ETERNAL LIFE FATHER?

    THE FATHER OR THE SON?

    ANSWER AND SWALLOW THE TRUTH!

    1) eternal life comes from God this is the new covenant ;GOD SEND HIS SON TO TEACH MEN THE WAY TO THE FATHER ,AND ANYONE THAT BELIEVE WHAT HE SAYS WOULD HAVE LIFE;

    2)TO THOSE THAT HAVE BELIEVED IN THE SON WILL RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE ,FROM THE FATHER ,BUT THE SON AS RECEIVED FROM THE FATHER THE POWERS TO GIVE LIFE TO THOSE THAT BELIEVE ,SO THE FATHER AS PUT IN THE SON THE POWERS TO GIVE LIVE AND GIVE IT TO WHOM HE WANTS TO;
    THE FATHER BY DOING SO DOES NOT CHANGE HIS FATHERHOOD NOR THE SON LOOSING HIS SONSHIP

    #380346
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ May 02 2014,07:45)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 02 2014,10:45)
    WHO does Gill think the “God” is in Phil 2:6?

    It seems to me he says the word “God” refers to THE FATHER.  That means Gill DOESN'T think the word “God” refers to a “nature/species” known as “God”.

    So Gill is indeed supporting me on the thing we were actually discussing.


    really? hahaha

    that is only your OPINION.

    let me post what gill said

    Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

    but this phrase, “the form of God”, is to be understood of the nature and essence of God…….


    jammin,

    I feel like I'm trying to explain brain surgery to an ant.  I fear that your mental capacities are not up to the task at hand.

    Yes, I agree that Gill believes the phrase “form of God” refers to the “nature and essence of God“.

    BUT WHO IS THAT “GOD” HE IS TALKING ABOUT?

    Gill believes the “God” in Phil 2:6 is the Father…… NOT a “nature”.  So in his opinion, Phil 2:6 teaches us that Jesus was existing with the “nature and essence” OF THE FATHER.

    So here's the difference between me and Gill:

    1.  I believe Jesus was existing in the OUTWARD APPEARANCE of HIS OWN FATHER AND GOD, JEHOVAH.

    2.  Gill believes Jesus was existing with the NATURE AND ESSENCE of HIS OWN FATHER AND GOD, JEHOVAH.

    So like I said so many posts ago:  It doesn't really matter (for OUR current discussion) if you insist that “morphe” means “nature” or “species” or “essence”……. because the bottom line is that the word “God” in Phil 2:6 refers to Jesus' OWN GOD, the Father.  It refers to Jesus' own God both times the word is used in Phil 2:6.

    And on this point, Gill and I DISAGREE with you, because you think the word “God” refers to a “nature” or “species”……. and NOT to Jesus' own God, the Father.

    Can you see the difference, jammin?  ???

    Some of the Trinitarian scholars I quoted agree with you that “MORPHE” means “nature”.  But none of them agree with you that the word “GOD” refers to a “nature” or “species”.

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