John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 16,881 through 16,900 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #380118
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ April 29 2014,19:32)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2014,06:56)

    From the time Jesus left Mary, to the time he came to the two disciples on the road, had his “essential inner substance” gone through a change?

    Or just his “outward appearance”?


    Mike,

    That definition seems to be a scholar speaking to another scholar just to show how knowledgeable he is.  I would like to say it favors my understating but it just sounds like gibberish to me.  


    :D  :laugh:  :D   Good on you, Kerwin.

    Quote (kerwin @ April 29 2014,19:32)
    For now I am going to say it is the equivalent to form.  In Mark it is speaking of the outward form of Jesus being in a different form.


    In other words, Jesus appeared to the two disciples in a different “outward appearance” than he had when he was with Mary earlier, right?

    So my point is that we KNOW the word means “outward appearance” in Mark 16:12.  And the definition “outward appearance” also works just fine for both uses in Phil 2.

    Add that to the way the secular classic writers used the same word (as “outward appearance”), and then the only reason left to insist on something other than “outward appearance” is because some people don't want to think of God having an outward appearance………. despite the fact that God's form is described all throughout the scriptures.

    At any rate, I see no reason whatsoever to not accept “form/outward appearance” as the correct meaning in all three scriptural uses of the word.

    #380125
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,April 29 2014,13:22][/quote]

    Quote
    Read Mark 16:12, jammin.

    Did Jesus appear to them in a DIFFERENT morphe?  YES.

    Was Jesus' “essential form” altered?  Or just his “outward appearance”?

    Which one?

    MIke,

    HE WAS COMPLETELY THROUGHOUT CHANGED!

    JESUS CONFIRMED THIS TO MARY THROUGH HIS OWN WORDS!

    GO AND TELL MY BRETHREN, I WILL ASCEND TO ………………

    WHICH IN THE TRUTH REFERED, AND MEANT THAT HE ASCENDED AND UNITED AS

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST

    WHICH SIGNIFIES THAT HUMAN FORM,

    JESUS' GLORIFIED FLESH BODY.

    INTEGRATED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT,GOD'S FORM ,

    JESUS' GLORIFIED SOUL!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #380127
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,April 30 2014,12:05][/quote]

    Quote
    therefore there is nothing special about Jesus also being “from eternity” like we all are, right?

    Mike,

    THAT' S WHERE YOU ARE WRONG I'M AFRAID!

    BECAUSE IF JESUS WAS AN IDENTICAL BEING LIKE ALL OF US, HE WOULDN'T HAVE REDEEMED US FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT HE WOULD HAVE HAD SIN WITHIN HIS OWN ESSENCE, WHICH HE DIDN'T

    THE REASON THAT HE BEGUILED SATAN AND  MADE HIM BELIEVE THAT HE WAS!

    1Corinthians 2:Which none of the princes of this world knew; for if they had known it, THEY WOULD NEVER HAVE CRUCIFIED THE LORD OF GLORY.

    NOW THE FACT THAT WE ARE ETERNAL MR. MIKE, IS SIMPLY BECAUSE WITHIN US FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD THERE WAS SLAIN THE LAMB, REV.13:8 THE WORD THE MEDIATOR SPIRIT, THE SON'S WHO LEFT THE FATHER TO CREATE ALL!

    IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN ETERNAL LIFE INTACT! NO MATTER WHAT, AND HOW LONG, TILL ALL RETURN TO THE FATHER

    ALSO JESUS CONFIRMED THIS AND SAID:

    YOU ARE FROM BENEATH THROUGHOUT A REFERENCE TO HUMANS: HELL

    I AM FROM ABOVE THROUGHOUT  HEAVEN

    SO STOP PUTTING JESUS CHRIST THE ONLY HUMAN SAVIOUR GOD! INTO THE SAME BASKET AS OURS!

    HOW ON EARTH HE COULD HAVE BEEN THE RANSOM FOR THE WORLD,

    IF HE WAS IN THE SAME TIME ANYTHING

    OF THE WORLD?

    CAN YOU SEE THE TRUTH?

    CAN YOU SEE THE DIFFERENCE?

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #380128
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,April 30 2014,12:05][/quote]

    Quote
    In the meantime, I've asked you very simply which scripture says God Almighty doesn't have daughters, and “Father Jesus” does.  I have yet to see that scripture – or an explanation of the two scriptures Nick and I posted – each of which say God Almighty has daughters.              

    Mike,

    IS JESUS CHRIST. THE MESSIAH, THE REDEEMER OF ALL, THEREFORE:

    BOTH SONS AND DAUGHTERS!?

    ANSWER!

    YES OR NO!

    Peace and love in Jesus THE FATHER OF REDEMPTION

    Charles

    #380173
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ April 30 2014,00:45)
    Mike,

    IS JESUS CHRIST. THE MESSIAH, THE REDEEMER OF ALL, THEREFORE:

    BOTH SONS AND DAUGHTERS!?

    ANSWER!

    YES OR NO![/b]


    NO.

    Jesus is the Christ/Messiah of his and our God, Jehovah.

    He is, however, the redeemer of all human beings, who are brothers and sisters to him – not sons and daughters.

    On the other hand………..

    Malachi 2:10
    [ Breaking Covenant Through Divorce ] Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us?  Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another?

    13 You flood the LORD’s altar with tears. You weep and wail because he no longer looks with favor on your offerings or accepts them with pleasure from your hands.

    14 You ask, “Why?” It is because the LORD is the witness between you and the wife of your youth. You have been unfaithful to her, though she is your partner, the wife of your marriage covenant.

    15 Has not the one God made you? You belong to him in body and spirit.

    The supersized part above refers to God being the Father of both men and woman, Charles.  I posted the context so you could see Malachi was referring to both men and women.

    And if God is the “Father” to a woman, then that woman is God's “daughter”.

    So tell me once again how Jehovah doesn't have daughters.  Tell me once again how Jesus does.

    Can you see how badly you've twisted things up?  Jehovah is the Father of all human beings – men and women alike.  Those same men and women are not “sons and daughters” to Jesus.  Instead, they are “brothers and sisters” to him, for he is also a child of God – just like we are.

    And as brothers and sisters of Jesus, we also have the chance to share in the inheritance his Father and God gave him.

    #380175
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ April 30 2014,00:07)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 29 2014,13:22)
    Read Mark 16:12, jammin.

    Did Jesus appear to them in a DIFFERENT morphe?  YES.

    Was Jesus' “essential form” altered?  Or just his “outward appearance”?

    Which one?

    MIke,

    HE WAS COMPLETELY THROUGHOUT CHANGED!

    JESUS CONFIRMED THIS TO MARY THROUGH HIS OWN WORDS!

    GO AND TELL MY BRETHREN, I WILL ASCEND TO ………………

    WHICH IN THE TRUTH REFERED, AND MEANT THAT HE ASCENDED AND UNITED AS

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST


    Luke 24
    37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a spirit.

    38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds?

    39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

    So in your opinion, Jesus was already “God Almighty the Father” at the time he said the above words?

    #380179
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ April 30 2014,00:32)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 29 2014,19:05)

    Quote (carmel @ April 29 2014,13:31)

    MIke,

    WHEN YOU REFLECT, SINCE ALL CREATURES SPIRIT WISE,  HAVE A SPECK OF GOD,WITHIN AS THEIR ESSENCE ALL CREATURES ARE FROM ETERNITY


    Yep!  If you want to look at it that way, then all of us are “from eternity”, and therefore there is nothing special about Jesus also being “from eternity” like we all are, right?


    Mike,

    THAT' S WHERE YOU ARE WRONG I'M AFRAID!

    BECAUSE IF JESUS WAS AN IDENTICAL BEING LIKE ALL OF US………….


    Charles,

    No one was saying Jesus is an “identical being like all of us”.

    I was saying that if you want to consider US as existing FROM ETERNITY, because our spirit is from God Himself, and therefore eternal, then we could say the same thing about why Jesus is “from eternity” as well.

    Get it?  If YOU can say, “Mike can be said to be 'from eternity' BECAUSE his spirit from God is 'from eternity'”, then I can say, “Jesus can be said to be 'from eternity' BECAUSE his spirit from God is 'from eternity'”.

    In either case, the BEING who is “Mike” is not actually “from eternity”, because he was created.

    And the BEING who is “Jesus” is also not actually “from eternity”, because he also was created.

    #380191
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,May 01 2014,12:29][/quote]

    Quote
    So in your opinion, Jesus was already “God Almighty the Father” at the time he said the above words?

    Mike,

    IN A PARTICULAR UNIQUE WAY  YES! AND HOW HE WAS!

    READ:

    John 20:19

    Now when it was
    LATE THAT SAME DAY OF THE WEEK,THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK,

    THE ABOVE CONFIRMED THAT JESUS, AFTER HIS RESURRECTION AS MAN,ON THE THIRD DAY, TO RESPECT HIS OWN WORDS WHEN HE SAID THAT HE WILL RAISE UP HIS OWN BODY IN THREE DAYS,

    THE SAME DAY,  BUT LATE, OBVIOUS IN ORDER FOR THE THIRD NIGHT TO BE OVER, TO RESPECT ALSO HIS OWN WORDS WHEN HE SAID THAT:

    For as Jonas was in the whale's belly three days and three nights: so shall the SON OF MAN be in the heart of the earth……….. IN HELL

    WHICH IT IS OBVIOUS THAT THIS IS A REFERENCE TO HIS SOUL, THE EX HOLY SPIRIT, BUT GLORIFIED WITH THE FLESH BODY OF JESUS

    THE SON OF MAN BOTH IN HELL, AND IN THE TOMB! THE TWO NATURES OF JESUS!OBVIOUS UP TO THAT TIME, SEPARATED  

    THEREFORE  HE WAS BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH IN HELL FIRE, CONFIRMED THAT HE WAS AND IS:

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD ,AND JESUS CHRIST

    AND ALL THOSE WHO BELIEVED WENT TO HEAVEN IN THAT INSTANT! AND HELL REMAINED OPEN UP TO THIS VERY DAY SUBJECT ONLY TO JESUS!

    NOW READ ON!

    and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them: Peace be to you.

    SO HERE IS CONFIRMED! WHILE JESUS NEVER LET MARY TO TOUCH HIM, WHEN HE WAS RESURRECTED AS MAN,  IN THE ABOVE SCRIPTURE HE NEVER BOTHERED AT ALL ABOUT HIS BODY OR WHO TOUCHES HIM, IN FACT HE WENT THROUGH WALLS, AND STATIONED HIMSELF IN THE MIDST OF! THEM!

    SO HE WAS COMPLETELY TRANSFORMED GOD ON EARTH! NOT THE FATHER YET, BUT ALSO THE FATHER THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT!

    IN A PARTICULAR UNIQUE WAY

    ON THE LAST DAY, THE FATHER EVENTUALLY WOULD OWN THIS SAME BODY ALL IN ALL THOUGH NOT ONLY ALL AS ONE IN JESUS AS HE IS NOW

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Chrales

    #380203
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2014,11:04)

    Quote (jammin @ April 29 2014,10:50)
    you said

    MANY who will someday be eternal.

    where is that>? what verse is that? hahaha


    Here's just one of the many, jammin:

    John 3:16
    For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

    This verse sums up the entire NT.  Who did our ONE and ONLY God “give”, jammin?  Himself?  Or His Son?

    You need to learn the difference between the two.


    do you understand what matthew said? john 3.16 has nothing to do with phil 2.6. did john 3.16 say that we as HUMAN are ETERNAL? john 3.16 said those who believe will have eternal life. it is not the same as being ETERNAL.

    do you understand english boy? hahahaha

    that is the most ridiculous explanation i have ever heard! hahaha

    matthew is telling us the divine nature of Christ. he is God just like his father. he is divine.

    Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

    2:5-11 The example of our Lord Jesus Christ is set before us. We must resemble him in his life, if we would have the benefit of his death. Notice the two natures of Christ; his Divine nature, and human nature. Who being in the form of God, partaking the Divine nature, as the eternal and only-begotten Son of God, Joh 1:1,

    if you notice, matthew give the verse jn 1.1 to further explain what phil 2.6 is all about. let me post what matthew said about john 1.1

    Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
    JOHN 1.1
    What the evangelist says of Christ proves that he is God. He asserts, His existence in the beginning; His coexistence with the Father.

    This eternal Word, this true Light shines, but the darkness comprehends it not.

    what a miserable doctrine you have mike. hahaha

    #380204
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2014,11:17)

    Quote (jammin @ April 29 2014,10:53)
    Gill said God is nothing but nature and essence. do you believe that? you just cut and paste the short phrase of gill's commentary.


    That's right.  I cut and pasted the ONLY part that had to do with our discussion, jammin.

    We weren't discussing who thinks Jesus is “God by nature”, and who doesn't.  We were discussing whether the word “God” in Phil 2:6 referred to a PERSON – or to a “nature/species”.

    And the very first words out of Gill's mouth made it abundantly clear that he thinks the “God” mentioned in Phil 2:6 is “the Father”.

    Why would I post more of his commentary, when all I needed for THIS DISCUSSION was right there in his first words?   ???


    because you dont understand what gill really said.

    let me post the whole thing
    Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

    Who being in the form of God,…. The Father; being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person. This form is to be understood, not of any shape or figure of him; for as such is not to be seen, it is not to be supposed of him; or any accidental form, for there are no accidents in God, whatever is in God, is God; he is nothing but nature and essence, he is the , the Jehovah, I am what I am; and so is his Son, which is, and was, and is to come, the fountain of all created beings nor does it intend any outward representation and resemblance of him, such as in kings; who, because of the honour and dignity they are raised unto, the authority and power they have, and because of the glory and majesty they are arrayed with, are called gods: nor does it design the state and condition Christ appeared in here on earth, having a power to work miracles, heal diseases, and dispossess devils, for the manifestation of his glory; and so might be said to be in the form of God, as Moses for doing less miracles is said to be a God unto Pharaoh; since this account does not regard Christ; as he was on earth in human nature, but what he was antecedent to the assumption of it; or otherwise his humility and condescension in becoming man, and so mean, will not appear: but this phrase, “the form of God”, is to be understood of the nature and essence of God, and describes Christ as he was from all eternity; just as the form of a servant signifies that he was really a servant, and the fashion of a man in which he was found means that he was truly and really man; so his being in the form of God intends that he was really and truly God; that he partook of the same nature with the Father, and was possessed of the same glory: from whence it appears, that he was in being before his incarnation; that he existed as a distinct person from God his Father, in whose form he was, and that as a divine person, or as truly God, being in the glorious form, nature, and essence of God; and that there is but one form of God, or divine nature and essence, common to the Father and the Son, and also to the Spirit; so that they are not three Gods, but one God: what the form of God is, the Heathens themselves (g) say cannot be comprehended nor seen, and so not to be inquired after; and they use the same word the apostle does here (h): and now Christ being in this glorious form, or having the same divine nature with the Father, with all the infinite and unspeakable glories of it,

    thought it no robbery to be equal with God; the Father; for if he was in the same form, nature, and essence, he must be equal to him, as he is; for he has the same perfections, as eternity, omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, immutability, and self-existence: hence he has the same glorious names, as God, the mighty God, the true God, the living God, God over all, Jehovah, the Lord of glory, &c. the same works of creation and providence are ascribed to him, and the same worship, homage, and honour given him: to be “in the form of God”, and to be “equal with God”, signify the same thing, the one is explanative of the other: and this divine form and equality, or true and proper deity, he did not obtain by force and rapine, by robbery and usurpation, as Satan attempted to do, and as Adam by his instigation also affected; and so the mind of a wicked man, as Philo the Jew says (i), being a lover of itself and impious, , “thinks itself to be equal with God”, a like phrase with this here used; but Christ enjoyed this equality by nature; he thought, he accounted, he knew he had it this way; and he held it hereby, and of right, and not by any unlawful means; and he reckoned that by declaring and showing forth his proper deity, and perfect equality with the Father, he robbed him of no perfection; the same being in him as in the Father, and the same in the Father as in him; that he did him no injury, nor deprived him of any glory, or assumed that to himself which did not belong to him: as for the sense which some put upon the words, that he did not “affect”, or “greedily catch” at deity; as the phrase will not admit of it, so it is not true in fact; he did affect deity, and asserted it strongly, and took every proper opportunity of declaring it, and in express terms affirmed he was the Son of God; and in terms easy to be understood declared his proper deity, and his unity and equality with the Father; required the same faith in himself as in the Father, and signified that he that saw the one, saw the other, Mark 14:61 John 5:17. Others give this as the sense of them, that he did not in an ostentatious way show forth the glory of his divine nature, but rather hid it; it is true, indeed, that Christ did not seek, but carefully shunned vain glory and popular applause; and therefore often after having wrought a miracle, would charge the persons on whom it was wrought, or the company, or his disciples, not to speak of it; this he did at certain times, and for certain reasons; yet at other times we find, that he wrought miracles to manifest forth his glory, and frequently appeals to them as proofs of his deity and Messiahship: and besides, the apostle is speaking not of what he was, or did in his incarnate state, but of what he was and thought himself to be, before he became man; wherefore the above sense is to be preferred as the genuine one,

    (g) Socraticus, Xenophon, & Aristo Chius, apud Minuc. Felic. Octav. p. 20. & Hostanes apud Caecil. Cyprian. de Idol. van. p. 46. (h) Laertii proem. ad Vit. Philosoph. p. 7. (i) Leg. Alleg. l. 1. p. 48, 49.

    hahahaha
    therefore, GILL IS NOT SUPPORTING YOUR FAIRY TALE DOCTRINE. poor mike.

    hahahaha

    #380205
    jammin
    Participant

    hahaha.

    mike
    profile

    studied at UNIVERSITY OF MORON… hahaha

    #380208
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,May 01 2014,12:29][/quote]

    Quote
    So in your opinion, Jesus was already “God Almighty the Father” at the time he said the above words?      

    MIKE,

    IT'S NOT MY OPINION!

    IT IS SCRIPTURAL!

    UNOFFICIALLY JESUS WAS GOD ALMIGHTY ON EARTH!

    GOD ALMIGHTY IN BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH FORM  ON EARTH!

    AND IN HEAVEN LIKE ALWAYS,GOD ALMIGHTY WAS AND IS A SPIRIT!

    NOW READ AND DISCERN THE TRUTH!

    21He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost.

    THE ABOVE IS AN EMPHASIS THAT HE WAS GOD! THE LORD!

    AS THE FATHER SENT ME,

    WHEN DID THE FATHER SEND JESUS, THE SON'S SPIRIT, THE WORD ?

    FIRST ON THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD TO CREATE ALL,REV:13:8!

    THEN

    IN THE FIRST EVER HUMAN BEING  ADAM, AS HIS SOUL!

    WHEN GOD BREATHED IN ADAM'S NOSTRILS !

    SO  IN JOHN 20:22  ABOVE THE WORD MADE FLESH THE SON HIMSELF, WAS IN HIS GLORY, AND IN THE GLORY OF THE FATHER!

    WHICH JESUS DECLARED BEFOREHAND IN JOHN 17:1…….. Father, the hour is come, glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee.

    SO HE BREATHED ON THEM AND SAID:

    RECEIVE THE HOLY GHOST GOD ALMIGHTY'S UNIQUE ATTRIBUTE, THE GIVING OF HIS SPIRIT

    BUT IN THAT PARTICULAR INSTANT JESUS CHRIST SUPPLIED THE HOLY GHOST!

    WHY DID HE DO THAT? MIKE?

    BUT YOUR WORLDLY WISDOM WON’T REACH THAT FAR!

    WAIT FOR MY NEXT POST!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #380210
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Quote
    In other words, Jesus appeared to the two disciples in a different “outward appearance” than he had when he was with Mary earlier, right?

    So my point is that we KNOW the word means “outward appearance” in Mark 16:12. And the definition “outward appearance” also works just fine for both uses in Phil 2.

    The word form in Mark 16 works just like the Koine Greek word to express outward appearance but it does not work to express outward appearance in the statement “a form of godliness”.

    Humans and angels have the same outward appearance so that is not a definition you go by in Philippians 2. We exist in the form of angels, at least externally.

    #380224
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi KW,
    We exist in the form of angels externally??

    #380225
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi KW,
    Genesis 6:13
    And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

    Genesis 6:17
    And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

    Genesis 6:19
    And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.

    Genesis 7:15
    And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

    Do these verse refer to angels??

    #380226
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi KW,
    How about these?

    Genesis 9:4
    But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

    Genesis 9:11
    And I will establish my covenant with you, neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.

    Genesis 9:15
    And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.

    Genesis 9:16
    And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.

    Genesis 9:17
    And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.

    #380227
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi KW,
    No mention of angels here

    1 Corinthians 15:39
    All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

    #380229
    carmel
    Participant

    Mike

    WHY DID JESUS GAVE THE APOSTLES THE HOLY GHOST, AN ATTRIBUTE OF THE FATHER?

    HE DID SO FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT:

    FIRST:
    JESUS, ASSERTED , THAT HE NEVER WENT TO HIS FATHER IN HEAVEN ! LIKE YOU AND OTHERS BELIEVE HE DID AFTER HE SPOKE TO MARY MAGDALENE! WHEN HE SAID I ASCEND TO…………… AND SO ON!

    SECOND:
    SINCE  HE REMAINED ON EARTH, IT IS CLEAR THAT THE FATHER WAS NOT YET  GLORYFIED, AS SUCH! THEREFORE, THE FATHER WAS NOT IN THE POSITION TO SUPPLY JESUS’ APOSTLES WITH THE GLORIFIED HOLY GHOST! OBVIOUS JESUS DIED, NOT THE FATHER! NO? JESUS INTEGRATED WITH THE HOLY GHOST, ON EARTH! NO?

    THIRD:
    JESUS HAD TO PASS ONTO HIS APOSTLES THE GLORIFIED HOLY GHOST FROM THE HUMAN SIDE GLORIFICATION POINT OF VIEW  HE WAS MAN!

    AND  OBVIOUS!  THE HOLY GHOST WAS JESUS’SOUL!

    FOURTH:
    JESUS  DEMONSTRATED  THAT FROM THAT MOMENT ON

    WITHOUT A DOUBT

    HE WAS IN THE GLORY OF GOD ALMIGHTY ON EARTH!

    IN FULL POWER, EVEN MORE THAN EVER! SINCE HE OWNED THE HUMAN FLESH SUBSTANCE! AS HE CONFIRMED IN JOHN

    17:2 As thou hast given him power over ALL FLESH, NOT JUST MALES BUT ALSO FEMALES, NOT JUST SONS BUT ALSO DAUGHTERS! AND SO ON!

    SO SATAN LOST AS A PRINCIPAL THE FEMALE FACTOR!

    OTHERWISE IT WON'T BE A GLORY AT ALL! NO?

    SO IT WAS A FACT THAT THE FATHER ABANDONED JESUS ON THE CROSS, AND IT WAS ALSO A FACT THAT HE NEVER ABIDED AGAIN IN JESUS LIKE HE DID BEFORE HIS DEATH,

    NO NEED TO! MISSION ACCOMPLISHED

    THEREFORE, JESUS EXECUTED GOD ALMIGHTY'S WORK! ON EARTH

    OBVIOUS! GOD ALMIGHTY GAVE ALL THINGS INTO HIS HANDS BEFORE HE WAS CRUCIFIED!

    John 13:3 Knowing that the Father had given him all things into his hands, and that he came from God, and goeth to God;

    THAN JESUS CONCLUDED:

    23Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

    MORE EMPHASIZED:

    JESUS  ATTRIBUTED TO HIS APOSTLES!THE POWER TO FORGIVE SINS!

    AGAIN: ONLY GOD IS AN AUTHORITY OVER SINS!

    SO JESUS, WAS THE ONLY TRUE GOD ON EARTH SINCE HE PASSED IT ONTO THEM!

    THEN AFTER 40 DAYS, JESUS WENT TO HEAVEN, AND HE INTEGRATED WITH THE FATHER, AND THE FATHER SENT THE HOLY GHOST FROM THE FATHER’S POINT OF VIEW

    John 16:15 ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER THE FATHER HAS, ARE MINE .

    NOTICE: NOT MY FATHER, BUT THE FATHER AND THEN HE ASSERTED:

    Therefore I said, that HE SHALL RECEIVE OF MINE, …………

    THIS IN ORDER TO MAKE IT POSSIBLE ALSO FOR THE FATHER TO ABIDE  IN MAN, AND TOPPLED SATAN,

    BUT FIRST AND FOREMOST, ONLY IN THOSE WHO BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS:

    THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST

    SOMETHING WHICH SATAN UP TO THIS VERY DAY REFUSED TO BELIEVE!

    OBVIOUS!

    Matthew 10:32 Every one therefore that shall confess me before men, I will also confess him before my Father who is in heaven. 33But he that shall deny me before men, I will also deny him before my Father who is in heaven.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #380230
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2014,11:04)


    Quote
    whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

    This verse sums up the entire NT. Who did our ONE and ONLY God “give”, jammin? Himself? Or His Son?

    You need to learn the difference between the two.

    Mike,

    IN WHOM SHALL WE BELIEVE TO HAVE ETERNAL LIFE?

    IN THE FATHER OR IN HIS SON?

    WHO IS THEREFORE OUR ETERNAL LIFE FATHER?

    THE FATHER OR THE SON?

    You need to learn the difference between the two

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #380245
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ May 01 2014,00:58)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 01 2014,12:29)
    So in your opinion, Jesus was already “God Almighty the Father” at the time he said the above words?


    Mike,

    IN A PARTICULAR UNIQUE WAY  YES! AND HOW HE WAS!


    Charles,

    1.  It is said all throughout scripture that Jesus' own Father and God is the one who raised Jesus from the grave.

    2.  What I gathered from your post is that Jesus, as a man, didn't want to be touched by Mary.  But then the fact that Jesus went through a wall and was touched by many means Jesus had transformed into God Almighty.

    That is quite a stretch, Charles.  Also, you never did actually address my point, which was:  Why would Jesus tell his disciples he was NOT a spirit – when you say he was God Almighty at the time he told them that?

    Then you say the Father eventually owned that very same body.  And that means you don't think the Father is a spirit.

    Then you were talking about something you called the “Ex-Holy Spirit” – something I've never heard about in any scripture.

    Charles, you are all over the place with your doctrine.  It's like you think ANYTHING Jesus does makes him God…….

    Hey Mike, do you see that scripture where Jesus blew his nose?  That tells us that he was now rid of the Ex-Holy Spirit, and had transformed from Satan as he assimilated into the Father God Almighty!

    That is what most of your doctrines sound like to me, Charles. I simply have no scriptural reason to believe the things you tell me.

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