John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 16,661 through 16,680 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #377874
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi KW,
    You mean man?

    #377879
    kerwin
    Participant

    Nick,

    I am sure what you are speaking of but I do know what I am. I am speaking of flesh being subjected to vanity and how it will one day be feed from its bondage to corruption. I even know where God subjected it to frustration as it part of the God's curse of man that occurred at the Fall, Genesis 3:19.

    #377884
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi KW,
    The creature or the flesh?

    #377891
    kerwin
    Participant

    Nick,

    Flesh is a creature but it is not the only creature that was subjected to frustration. It is the one that is relevant to what I said. I am not even sure the soul or spirit of a man are creations as they either came with or are the result of the breath of God.

    #377899
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi KW
    Flesh is a creature??

    #377912
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,April 14 2014,04:07][/quote]

    Quote
    In your understanding, it reads, “The Father so loved the world that He sent Himself into earth as His own only begotten Son.”

    Mike,

    THAT'S THE TRUTH!

    JESUS'FLESH SUBSTANCE WAS ONLY A COVER, A CARRIER!

    THE ONLY DIFFERENCE WAS THAT GOD USED HIS OWN GENUINE SPIRIT SUBSTANCE SOLIDIFIED INTO MATTER IN ORDER TO OWN THAT COVER,

    NOTHING ELSE COULD BE SUFFICIENT FOR THE FATHER TO ABIDE WITHIN

    THIS COVER HAD ALSO LIFE IN ITSELF, AND INTEGRATED WITH GOD FOR ETERNITY AFTER RESURRECTION!

    NOT DEAD LIKE OURS!

    WE WOULD RECEIVE THE LIFE ONLY WHEN OUR COVER DIES! THE FIRST RESURRECTION!

    SIMPLY BECAUSE A SPECK OF THAT SAME GOD'S COVER SUBSTANCE IS WITHIN US FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD:

    THE ONLY LIFE SOURCE!

    THEREFORE

    THE TRIUNE MEDIATOR CREATOR GOD

    OR

    THE WORD

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #377914
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,April 14 2014,04:07][/quote]

    Quote
    So now we have two completely DIFFERENT heavenly Fathers – and two completely DIFFERENT Gods?

    Mike,

    NO ,

    ALL CREATURES HAVE ONLY ONE FATHER!

    JESUS CHRIST

    ALMIGHTY GOD DID NOT DIE!

    ALMIGHTY GOD ACQUIRED FATHERHOOD OF ALL CREATURES THROUGH JESUS CHRIST!

    HE WAS NEVER A FATHER BEFORE!

    ONLY A MYSTERIOUS,HIDDEN, SPIRIT GOD!

    TO BE A FATHER OF CREATURES, THE FATHER MUST OWN

    THE SAME FLESH SUBSTANCE,

    LIVE IN THE SAME ENVIRONMENT OF HIS OWN CHILDREN

    AND DIE LIKE ALL HIS CHILDREN!

    ALMIGHTY GOD WAS NOT IN THE POSITION TO ACHIEVE THIS

    UNLESS HE HIMSELF FURNISH HIMSELF WITH A COVER OUT OF HIMSELF, TO FUNCTION AS A MEDIATOR

    WITHIN HIS OWN AND THE SAME CHILDREN HE HIMSELF CREATED, DIED FOR LIKE HIS OWN CHILDREN, REDEEMED THEM, AND CONFIRMED THAT HE IS THE ONLY FATHER OF IT ALL NO ONE ELSE!

    NOW WHEN ALL HIS CREATURES, FROM HEAVEN AND EARTH ACCEPT THIS TRUTH,

    ONLY THEN THEY BECOME HIS CHILDREN!

    THEN THIS FATHER JESUS CHRIST,

    THE ABOVE IS FROM THE FATHER POINT OF VIEW ONLY

    NEXT I WILL POST FROM THE GOD AND THE INTEGRATION POINT OF VIEW, SINCE YOU ARE IN NEED OF WINE!

    PERHAPS! ONLY GOD KNOWS,

    YOU MIGHT TASTE IT AND ACCEPT IT

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #377923
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 14 2014,16:25)
    Hi KW
    Flesh is a creature??


    Nick……..Look up the word creature used there and you will find it means creation. The whole creation of God will be delivered and it is God who subjected it all to corruption in hopes and it is God who will deliver it (the creation) unto the Glorious liberty of the sons of God.

    God will never do away with his creation of man or this earth but will transform it to an eternal state of existences. Adam and Eve as flesh humans could have lived for ever according to God, had they take of the tree of life. Also human have lived through being thrown into a fiery furnace, have become so strong that they could single highhandedly slay one thousand solders in battle collapse large temples by human hand, walk on water, vanish and reappear carried unto heaven and will return also all with physical flesh bodies.

    The words that say flesh and blood can not enter the kingdom of God is relating to idea that our bodies of flesh is not what CAN enter IN, but it is the SPIRIT is in us that MUST of itself cause us (which includes our flesh bodies) to enter into the Kingdom of God.

    Jesus said the kingdom of God comes “not with observation” (it is not physical), it is “WITHIN” you. That means the Kingdom of God is “IN” your Physical Body where the Spirit dwell.

    It is not God plan to do away with his creation but to deliver it from it “Bondage” of Corruption, unto the glorious of the son of God. Jesus' body scriptures says did not see corruption , it was resurrected before it decade or was turned to corruption, like the rest of man has after death,

    Notice why Jesus' body did not see corruption, because he did not sin, and God judgement was that the Soul that sins shall parish. Jesus did not sin so his soul (body) did not see corruption.

    The whole idea that we will become a spirit, without a physical body is a false teaching, Jesus will return just as he was resurrected with a physical body .

    Much of what brother Kewin is saying on this subjectis right. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene

    #377928
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 13 2014,03:52)

    Quote (jammin @ April 11 2014,10:53)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 11 2014,09:36)

    Quote (jammin @ April 10 2014,07:45)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 10 2014,12:15)

    Quote (jammin @ April 09 2014,07:44)
    i believe that the word God in phil 2.6 refers to the nature or essence.


    Okay jammin,

    That takes care of the FIRST word “God” in verse 6.  But what about the second “God”?  

    Philippians 2:6 NET Bible
    who though he existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped………..

    Is that talking about equality with a nature or essence?  Or equality with the PERSON known as “God”?


    we are not done with the form of God and yet you want to jump to another topic.


    It's not a second topic jammin.  It is a question concerning the ONE verse we are discussing.

    So please answer the question.


    we need to finish the FIRST topic before we can jump to the SECOND topic.

    do you exist in the form of MAN?


    I exist in the form of manKIND, jammin……….. which means I am A man – not THE man.

    Now answer my question.

    i did not say you exist in the form of THE MAN. i said do you exist in the form of MAN.

    therefore you do exist in the form of MAN and not your OWN MAN. correct?

    if yes, then you must accept that Christ exist in the form of God and not HIS OWN GOD. you cant exist in the form of your own MAN because there is no such word like that. only a moron can tell that

    #377929
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ April 12 2014,06:41)

    Quote (jammin @ April 11 2014,22:53)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 11 2014,09:36)

    Quote (jammin @ April 10 2014,07:45)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 10 2014,12:15)

    Quote (jammin @ April 09 2014,07:44)
    i believe that the word God in phil 2.6 refers to the nature or essence.


    Okay jammin,

    That takes care of the FIRST word “God” in verse 6.  But what about the second “God”?  

    Philippians 2:6 NET Bible
    who though he existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped………..

    Is that talking about equality with a nature or essence?  Or equality with the PERSON known as “God”?


    we are not done with the form of God and yet you want to jump to another topic.


    It's not a second topic jammin.  It is a question concerning the ONE verse we are discussing.

    So please answer the question.


    we need to finish the FIRST topic before we can jump to the SECOND topic.

    do you exist in the form of MAN?
    or

    do you exist in the form of your OWN MAN?


    Jammin,

    God desire for each and every man to exist in his form.  

    You are asking Mike if he is a mere man and so not a son of God.


    answer my question

    do you exist in the form of MAN or your OWN MAN?

    #377930
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi GB,
    What do you make of 1Cor 15?
    We shall be changed.

    2Cor 5?

    Jesus does not live in a torn cut body and our new tent is going to be an improvement on this corruptible one

    #377938
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=kerwin,April 14 2014,04:41][/quote]

    Quote
    1 Corinthians 15:46 RHE
    Douay-Rheims

    Yet that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural: afterwards that which is spiritual.

    God created the heaven and earth, the physical, first.
    God created the beasts, the natural, second.
    God created the humans, the spiritual, last.

    Scripture testifies of this as the first use of created is:

    Genesis 1:1
    Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

    1 In the beginning God created heaven, and earth.

    Kewin,

    1 Corinthians 15:46 is regarding RESURRECTION!

    WHAT CREATION GOT TO DO WITH IT?

    YOU SAID:

    God created the heaven and earth, the physical, first.

    physical

    Free Dictionary Download  

    1.
    of or pertaining to the body: physical exercise.
    2.
    of or pertaining to that which is material: the physical universe; the physical sciences.
    3.
    noting or pertaining to the properties of matter and energy other than those peculiar to living matter.
    4.
    pertaining to the physical sciences, especially physics.
    5.
    carnal; sexual: a physical attraction.

    AS YOU CAN READ THERE'S NOTHING RELATED TO SPIRITS!

    SO THE ABOVE IS AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL, GOD CREATED THE HEAVEN SPIRITUAL CREATURES FIRST!

    THEN EARTH MATERIAL CREATURES SECOND!

    FOR YOUR INFORMATION:

    GENESIS 1:1 ALTHOUGH THERE WAS EARTH INCLUDED, IT WAS NOT MORTAL! UP TO THAT MOMENT IN TIME SINCE ALL WAS IN GOD'S HARMONY!

    THEREFORE ALTHOUGH IT WAS EARTH IT WAS STILL SPIRITUAL, AND IT COULD DISSOLVE IN AN INSTANT BACK TO SPIRITS!

    THEN THE REBEL OCCURRED AND THE EARTH SOLIDIFIED PERMANENTLY THROUGH THE FALL!

    SO BETWEEN GENESIS 1:1, AND 1:2 THE REBEL OCCURRED AND GOD'S HARMONY ENDED, AND MATTER BECAME PERMANENTLY SOLID, HELL, THE CENTRE OF THE EARTH WAS INTRODUCED, AND OUR WORLD WAS ESTABLISHED AS IT IS NOW!

    God created the beasts, the natural, second.

    THE ABOVE IS STILL MATTER!  NATURE IS MATTER! THROUGHOUT!

    IT  SIMPLY GRADUALLY LOOSES ITS HARDNESS, TILL EVENTUALLY BECAME FLESH! IN ORDER TO REVERSE ITSELF TO SPIRIT,

    God created the humans, the spiritual, last.

    THE ABOVE IS NOT SPIRITUAL! BUT ALSO MATTER!

    OUR KIND OF HUMANS WERE NEVER SPIRITUAL!ADAM WAS NOT CREATED SPIRITUAL!

    ADAM WAS THE TRANSFORMATION OF LUCIFER FROM BEAST INTO A MAN,  AFTER IT WENT EXTINCT!

    THEN GOD GAVE HIM HIS SPIRIT, AND CHANGED HIM INTO A LIVING SOUL!

    ADAM LOST HIS SPIRITUAL FLESH STATE THROUGH SIN, AND BECAME FLESH AND BLOOD, SATAN'S IMAGE!

    SINCE HE REJECTED GOD, AND ACCEPTED SATAN!

    ANIMALS WERE MORE PERFECT THAN ADAM WAS, AFTER HE SINNED, SINCE THEY RETAINED THEIR ORIGINAL STATE, !

    COMPARE A CHILD ON BIRTH WITH A MERE CHICK WHEN IT COMES OUT FROM AN EGG, AND YOU WILL REALIZE THAT HUMANS DEFINITELY LOST THE ENTIRE IMAGE OF GOD, AND THE ONLY WAY TO BECOME GOD'S IMAGE WAS THAT GOD HIMSELF BECAME LIKE US IN JESUS CHRIST!

    SO READ AGAIN:

    1 Corinthians 15:46 Yet that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; afterwards that which is spiritual.

    THEREFORE REGARDING RESURRECTION,

    THE NATURAL BODY FIRST TO BE RESURRECTED, AS INCORRUPTIBLE HUMAN BODY,

    THEN AFTERWARDS GOD CHANGES US AND  GIVES US A NEW BODY

    THE SAME PROCESS WHICH ADAM HAD!

    THE SAME PROCESS WHICH THE SECOND ADAM HAD!

    1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as he will: and to every seed its proper body.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #377940
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 15 2014,01:29)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 14 2014,16:25)
    Hi KW
    Flesh is a creature??


    Nick……..Look up the word creature used there and you will find it means creation. The whole creation of God will be delivered and it is God who subjected it all to corruption in hopes and it is God who will deliver it (the creation) unto the Glorious liberty of the sons of God.

    God will never do away with his creation of man or this earth but will transform it to an eternal state of existences. Adam and Eve as flesh humans could have lived for ever according to God, had they take of the tree of life. Also human have lived through being thrown into a fiery furnace, have become so strong that they could single highhandedly  slay one thousand  solders in battle collapse large temples by human hand, walk on water, vanish and reappear carried unto heaven and will return also all with physical flesh bodies.  

    The words that say flesh and  blood can not enter the kingdom of God is relating to idea that our bodies of flesh is not what CAN enter IN, but it is the SPIRIT is in us that MUST of itself cause us (which includes our flesh bodies) to enter into the Kingdom of God.

    Jesus said   the kingdom of God comes “not with observation” (it is not physical), it is “WITHIN” you. That means the Kingdom of God is “IN” your Physical Body where the Spirit dwell.

    It is not God plan to do away with his creation but to deliver it from it “Bondage” of Corruption, unto the glorious of the son of God.  Jesus' body scriptures says did not see corruption , it was resurrected before it decade or was turned to corruption, like the rest of man has after death,

    Notice why Jesus' body did not see corruption, because he did not sin, and God judgement was that the Soul that sins shall parish. Jesus did not sin so his soul (body) did not see corruption.

    The whole idea that we will become  a spirit, without a physical body is a false teaching,  Jesus will return just as he was resurrected with a physical body .  

    Much of what brother Kewin is saying on this subjectis right. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene


    Good explanation brother.

    #377942
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi GB,

    It shall be
    67.Luke 13:28
    There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

    68.Luke 13:29
    And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.

    69.Luke 14:15
    And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God.

    It comes this way.
    This is how it IS

    71.Luke 17:20
    And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

    72.Luke 17:21
    Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

    #377984
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2014,19:16)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 14 2014,06:52)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2014,18:28)
    I do know that Hebrews 6:3 is using flesh as if it was in rebellion against the governance of the Spirit.


    Please give me the correct scripture, so I can check what you're saying.


    Mike,

    It is definition of flesh I found at blueletterbible.org.  Psalms 78:38 uses it the same way


    Kerwin,

    This is Hebrews 6:3……….

    NET © And this is what we intend to do, if God permits.

    NIV ©
    And God permitting, we will do so.

    NASB ©
    And this we will do, if God permits.

    NLT ©
    And so, God willing, we will move forward to further understanding.

    MSG ©
    God helping us, we'll stay true to all that. But there's so much more. Let's get on with it!

    BBE ©
    Now we will do this, if God lets us.

    NRSV ©
    And we will do this, if God permits.

    NKJV ©
    And this we will do if God permits.

    I'm asking for the correct scripture.

    #377985
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ April 14 2014,00:34)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 14 2014,04:07)
    In your understanding, it reads, “The Father so loved the world that He sent Himself into earth as His own only begotten Son.”

    Mike,

    THAT'S THE TRUTH!


    Okay Charles,

    Now we're sure of what you believe. I don't believe the same thing. I believe one person, “God”, sent another person, “His Son Jesus”, into the earth.

    I will never believe that the Son OF God IS the very God he is the Son OF.

    #377991
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ April 14 2014,10:58)

    Quote (mikeboll @ 64)

    Quote (jammin @ April 09 2014,07:44)
    i believe that the word God in phil 2.6 refers to the nature or essence.


    Okay jammin,

    That takes care of the FIRST word “God” in verse 6.  But what about the second “God”?  

    Philippians 2:6 NET Bible
    who though he existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped………..

    Is that talking about equality with a nature or essence?  Or equality with the PERSON known as “God”?


    1.  therefore you do exist in the form of MAN and not your OWN MAN. correct?

    2.  if yes, then you must accept that Christ exist in the form of God and not HIS OWN GOD.


    1.  Only if by “man” you mean “MANKIND”, jammin.

    Let me show you the difference:

    A.  I exist in the form of Adam – by which I mean I am “Adam-kind”, otherwise known in English as “Mankind”.

    In sample A, the word “Adam” refers to the SPECIES known to us as “Mankind”.

    B.  I exist in the form of Adam – by which I mean Eve's husband and I share a form/image.

    In sample B, the word “Adam” refers to the PERSON who was the first human being ever created.

    Can you see that the same word “Adam” is used in both samples, but those words refer to two different things?

    It is the same in Phil 2, jammin.  The phrase “existing in the form of God” means for me that Jesus was existing in the form of the PERSON known to us as Jehovah.

    But for you, that same phrase means Jesus was existing as a member of a SPECIES called “Godkind”.

    We cannot, from the phrase “existing in the form of God”, tell which one of us is right – although we must note that your understanding calls for the INVENTION of a species called “Godkind”.

    But since we can't tell for sure from that one simple phrase, we must look to the rest of the context for the answer.

    This is why I'm asking you who or what the SECOND word “God” refers to in that same statement.  Perhaps the meaning of the SECOND mention of “God” can shed some light on the meaning of the FIRST mention of “God” for us.

    2.  Your statement is correct AS LONG AS the “God” mentioned in the first part of the statement refers to a “Godkind” SPECIES.

    If the “God” in the first part of the statement refers to JEHOVAH, like I think, then I am right that Jesus was existing in the form of HIS OWN GOD – since we know from scriptures that Jehovah IS the God of Jesus.

    Now it's time for YOU to answer MY question. Who or what does the SECOND word “God” refer to in that statement?

    #377995
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 14 2014,12:18)
    Hi GB,
    What do you make of 1Cor 15?
    We shall be changed.

    2Cor 5?

    Jesus does not live in a torn cut body and our new tent is going to be an improvement on this corruptible one


    Also Phil 3:21. Or 1 John 3:2, where John makes it clear that he had yet to see Jesus “as he is”.

    Also think about the transfiguration, Gene. Why in the world would God show Jesus to three apostles in a glorified state, shining brighter than the sun – if Jesus was never going to achieve that glorified state?

    #377996
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ April 14 2014,13:54)

    Quote (kerwin @ April 14 2014,04:41)
    1 Corinthians 15:46 RHE
    Douay-Rheims

    Yet that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural: afterwards that which is spiritual.


    Kerwin,

    1 Corinthians 15:46 is regarding RESURRECTION!

    WHAT CREATION GOT TO DO WITH IT?


    Exactly, Charles.

    Kerwin is using an unrelated teaching to “support” his view on a completely different teaching.

    I also tried to tell him the same.

    #378025
    kerwin
    Participant

    Carmel,

    Quote
    SO THE ABOVE IS AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL, GOD CREATED THE HEAVEN SPIRITUAL CREATURES FIRST!

    People say that but they fail to point to one Scripture that actually states that. I sat there and went to the fist chapter of genesis and pointed at the fact God created the heaven and the earth is the first time that the word “created” is used in Scripture.

    Are you and others reading a different bible and afraid to let your fellow posters know?

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