John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 16,421 through 16,440 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #376018
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ April 03 2014,06:04)
    [quote=Wakeup,April 03 2014,02:19][/quote]

    Quote
    The Holy spirit is not a soul.

    Wakeup,

    THE HOLY SPIRIT IS A SPIRIT FROM THE FATHER!

    THE FATHER ABIDES ONLY WITHIN THE HOLY SPIRIT!

    THEREFORE JESUS' SOUL IS FOR SURE THE HOLY SPIRIT, SINCE THE FATHER ABIDED IN JESUS!

    ALSO ALL SPIRITS WHICH ARE USED BY THE FATHER, FOR HIS PERSONAL USE ARE HOLY SPIRITS, AND REMAIN HOLY SPIRITS!

    JESUS'S SPIRIT, THE SON, THE WORD IS ALSO A HOLY SPIRIT!

    THE HOLY SPIRIT WAS JESUS'SOUL FOR SURE SINCE IT ENTERED MARY, AND CONCEIVED, IN OUR TERMS ONLY,

    MARY!

    MORE SPAGHETTI FOR YOU TO CHEW!

    OUR SOUL BUILT OUR BODY, DO YOU KNOW THAT

    OUR SOUL IS RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR OWN BODY!

    OUR SOUL THROUGH NATURE

    EX EVIL SPIRIT,

    ENTERS THROUGH THE SPERM IN OUR MOTHER'S WOMB AND CONCEIVE OUR MOTHER'S OVUM!

    NOW WITHIN OUR SOUL, ABIDES THE WORD IT'S BEEN THERE BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD!REV 13:8

    FOR US THESE THINGS ARE NOT VISIBLE, AND SCIENCE COULD ONLY SEE THE EFFECT THROUGH THE VISIBLE STUFF!

    Quote
    (into thy hands I commend my spirit).

    Wakeup,

    tell me now:

    WHERE JESUS' SPIRIT WAS?

    THE ANSWER IS IN THIS POST, SO READ AND REFLECT!

    Quote
    Every person has not the Holy spirit,but his own soul.

    THANK YOU! THAT IS CHILDISH!

    WE ALL ARE EX LUCIFER'S ANGELS SUBSTANCE!

    WE ALL ARE DEAD CREATURES YET! SPIRITUALLY!

    WE ALL ARE SINFUL CREATURES!

    WE COME BACK TO LIFE WHEN OUR BODY DIES,

    THE FIRST RESURRECTION OF THE SOUL! GOD'S INTERESTS, WHAT JESUS DIED FOR!

    AND ONLY IF WE LIVE ACCORDING TO THE GOSPEL!

    SO DON'T COMPARE JESUS WITH US!

    HE WAS THROUGHOUT FROM HEAVEN, HE HAS NOTHING OF EARTH!

    WE ARE FROM HELL!

    ALSO:

    AGAIN,HERE'S MORE SPAGHETTI FOR YOU!

    THE HOLY SPIRIT WAS ALSO MARY'S SPIRIT!

    THAT MEANS THAT THE FATHER EMANATED A SPIRIT AND GAVE IT TO MARY WITHIN HER SOUL,
    AND HER SOUL WAS THE WORDWHICH ENTERED IN HER MOTHER'S WOMB!

    SO MARY'S SOUL WAS THE WORD

    NOW UNLESS YOU PROVE AND CONTRADICT ME, WORD BY WORD,

    NOT NONSENSE SPAGHETTI!

    MY POST STANDS!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Carmel.

    Quote
    OUR SOUL THROUGH NATURE
    EX EVIL SPIRIT,

    This is some more Spaghetti.

    Quote

    WE ALL ARE EX LUCIFER'S ANGELS SUBSTANCE!

    Some more spaghetti. Are you Mormon?

    Quote
    OUR SOUL THROUGH NATURE
    EX EVIL SPIRIT,
    ENTERS THROUGH THE SPERM IN OUR MOTHER'S WOMB AND CONCEIVE OUR MOTHER'S OVUM!
    NOW WITHIN OUR SOUL, ABIDES THE WORD IT'S BEEN THERE BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD!REV 13:8

    All spaghetti.

    The Word was not given to every gentile.
    Such as hindus,krishnas.
    Adam and Noah were not ex lucifer.
    Adam was in the garden, and so was lucifer,the serpent.
    Unless you teach that the serpent was not lucifer.
    Lucifer is the light. **IS THAT IT**??

    wakeup.

    #376026
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,
    Charles words are sure evidence that a little bit of scripture and a whole lot of speculation spawns nothing useful.

    #376091
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,April 03 2014,09:36][/quote]

    Quote
    As long as you keep saying “God NEEDED”, I will disagree with you.  God didn't, doesn't, and never will “NEED” anyone or anything.

    You do realize that your own words prove that the “mediator” is not “God Himself”, right?

    Also, how did that mediator come to be?  If the mediator is not “God Himself”, then the mediator had a beginning at some point, right?  

    Mike,

    FEW PAGES BACK,I GAVE DETAIL REGARDING ALL WHAT YOU ARE SAYING, BUT YOU IGNORED IT ALL

    SO HERE IT IS AGAIN!

    SINCE GOD WAS IN NEED OF A MEDIATOR, AND GOD DOESN'T NEED ANY BODY, APART FROM HIMSELF, AND  CREATION WAS NOT POSSIBLE WITHOUT A MEDIATOR,

    BOTH AS A SPIRIT USED IN CREATION THE WORD

    AND AS MAN TO REDEEM CREATION   THE WORD MADE FLESH

    THEREFORE THAT MEDIATOR IS HIMSELF AS THE WORD!

    AS SCRIPTURE SAYS: MEDIATOR IS NOT OF ONE,

    GALATIANS 3:20 Now a mediator is not of one: but God is one.

    BUT GOD IS ONE

    THEREFORE SINCE GOD NEEDED A MEDIATOR , AND GOD IS ONE, GOD IS THAT SAME MEDIATOR

    ,BUT AS THE WORD

    I EXPLAINED THE FUNCTION OF GOD AS THE WORD

    I SAID THAT THE SON'S SPIRIT, WITHIN HIMSELF CONTAINED THE FATHER'S SPIRIT,

    ALSO BETWEEN THE FATHER AND THE SON THERE WAS THE HOLY SPIRIT!

    IN THIS FUNCTION THE SON'S SPIRIT IS ATTACHED TO ALL CREATURES!

    IT IS ALSO STRENGTHENED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, AND THE FATHER WITHIN THE HOLY SPIRIT, CREATES

    NOW SINCE THE SON OCCUPIED THE LEADING ROLE, THEREFORE REPLACED THE PREVIOUS ROLE BY THE FATHER,BEFORE ANY THING WAS CREATED,

    IT IS SIMPLY NAMED THE WORD TO INDICATE THE CHANGE IN THE POSITION WITHIN THE DEITY, TILL BOTH ALL CREATION AND REDEMPTION ARE ACHIEVED, SINCE IT IS A MATERIAL CREATION WHICH OBVIOUS WAS OF THE ENEMIES OF GOD!

    THEREFORE ONLY THROUGH A MEDIATOR, GOD HIMSELF IN THE FUNCTION OF

    THE WORD COULD DO IT!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #376092
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ April 03 2014,11:56)

    Quote (carmel @ April 03 2014,06:04)

    Quote (Wakeup @ April 03 2014,02:19)


    Quote
    The Holy spirit is not a soul.

    Wakeup,

    THE HOLY SPIRIT IS A SPIRIT FROM THE FATHER!

    THE FATHER ABIDES ONLY WITHIN THE HOLY SPIRIT!

    THEREFORE JESUS' SOUL IS FOR SURE THE HOLY SPIRIT, SINCE THE FATHER ABIDED IN JESUS!

    ALSO ALL SPIRITS WHICH ARE USED BY THE FATHER, FOR HIS PERSONAL USE ARE HOLY SPIRITS, AND REMAIN HOLY SPIRITS!

    JESUS'S SPIRIT, THE SON, THE WORD IS ALSO A HOLY SPIRIT!

    THE HOLY SPIRIT WAS JESUS'SOUL FOR SURE SINCE IT ENTERED MARY, AND CONCEIVED, IN OUR TERMS ONLY,

    MARY!

    MORE SPAGHETTI FOR YOU TO CHEW!

    OUR SOUL BUILT OUR BODY, DO YOU KNOW THAT

    OUR SOUL IS RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR OWN BODY!

    OUR SOUL THROUGH NATURE

    EX EVIL SPIRIT,

    ENTERS THROUGH THE SPERM IN OUR MOTHER'S WOMB AND CONCEIVE OUR MOTHER'S OVUM!

    NOW WITHIN OUR SOUL, ABIDES THE WORD IT'S BEEN THERE BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD!REV 13:8

    FOR US THESE THINGS ARE NOT VISIBLE, AND SCIENCE COULD ONLY SEE THE EFFECT THROUGH THE VISIBLE STUFF!

    Quote
    (into thy hands I commend my spirit).

    Wakeup,

    tell me now:

    WHERE JESUS' SPIRIT WAS?

    THE ANSWER IS IN THIS POST, SO READ AND REFLECT!

    Quote
    Every person has not the Holy spirit,but his own soul.

    THANK YOU! THAT IS CHILDISH!

    WE ALL ARE EX LUCIFER'S ANGELS SUBSTANCE!

    WE ALL ARE DEAD CREATURES YET! SPIRITUALLY!

    WE ALL ARE SINFUL CREATURES!

    WE COME BACK TO LIFE WHEN OUR BODY DIES,

    THE FIRST RESURRECTION OF THE SOUL! GOD'S INTERESTS, WHAT JESUS DIED FOR!

    AND ONLY IF WE LIVE ACCORDING TO THE GOSPEL!

    SO DON'T COMPARE JESUS WITH US!

    HE WAS THROUGHOUT FROM HEAVEN, HE HAS NOTHING OF EARTH!

    WE ARE FROM HELL!

    ALSO:

    AGAIN,HERE'S MORE SPAGHETTI FOR YOU!

    THE HOLY SPIRIT WAS ALSO MARY'S SPIRIT!

    THAT MEANS THAT THE FATHER EMANATED A SPIRIT AND GAVE IT TO MARY WITHIN HER SOUL,
    AND HER SOUL WAS THE WORDWHICH ENTERED IN HER MOTHER'S WOMB!

    SO MARY'S SOUL WAS THE WORD

    NOW UNLESS YOU PROVE AND CONTRADICT ME, WORD BY WORD,

    NOT NONSENSE SPAGHETTI!

    MY POST STANDS!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Carmel.

    Quote
    OUR SOUL THROUGH NATURE
    EX EVIL SPIRIT,

    This is some more Spaghetti.

    Quote

    WE ALL ARE EX LUCIFER'S ANGELS SUBSTANCE!

    Some more spaghetti. Are you Mormon?

    Quote
    OUR SOUL THROUGH NATURE
    EX EVIL SPIRIT,
    ENTERS THROUGH THE SPERM IN OUR MOTHER'S WOMB AND CONCEIVE OUR MOTHER'S OVUM!
    NOW WITHIN OUR SOUL, ABIDES THE WORD IT'S BEEN THERE BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD!REV 13:8

    All spaghetti.

    The Word was not given to every gentile.
    Such as hindus,krishnas.
    Adam and Noah were not ex lucifer.
    Adam was in the garden, and so was lucifer,the serpent.
    Unless you teach that the serpent was not lucifer.
    Lucifer is the light.    **IS THAT IT**??

    wakeup.


    Quote
    The Word was not given to every gentile.
    Such as hindus,krishnas.

    Wakeup,

    MORE SPAGHETTI FOR YOU:

    YOU SAID:The Word was not given to every gentile.

    CHILDISH AND THE POOREST OF ALL CONCLUSIONS I EVER HEARD REGARDING THE WORD

    ALL WAS CREATED BY, IN ,AND FOR THE WORD

    THEREFORE NOT EVEN THE LEAST OF THE LEAST WORM IS WITHOUT THE WORD!

    ALSO ALL ARE SUSTAINED WITH THE WORD!

    ALSO ALL ARE REDEEMED BY THE WORD

    Peace and love in Jeuss THE EX WORD

    Charles

    #376094
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=Wakeup,April 03 2014,11:56][/quote]

    Quote
    Adam and Noah were not ex lucifer.
    Adam was in the garden, and so was lucifer,the serpent.
    Unless you teach that the serpent was not lucifer.
    Lucifer is the light.    **IS THAT IT**??

    Wakeup,

    GET THIS INTO YOUR MIND:

    THAT ALL MATTER IS EX LUCIFER NO MATTER WHO WITH THE EXCEPTION OF JESUS WHO WAS ALL THROUGHOUT FROM HEAVEN OBVIOUS OTHERWISE HE WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN THE REDEEMER! SINCE THERE WAS A RANSOM TO BE PAID, DEFINITELY NOTHING OF SATAN'S WORLD!

    SO

    ADAM WAS ONE OF LUCIFER'S SPIRIT WHICH GOD TRANSFORMED HIM THROUGH NATURE INTO THE FIRST LIVING SOUL!

    THE SERPENT IS ANOTHER SPIRIT OF LUCIFER, WHICH GOD ESTABLISHED HIM AS SATAN, THE EVIL SPIRIT WHICH ORIGINALLY WAS PART OF THE TRIUNE SPIRIT AS LUCIFER THE FIRST ANGEL EVER CREATED!

    THE THIRD SPIRIT WHICH WAS ORIGINALLY PART OF LUCIFER, GOD TRANSFORMED HIM INTO MATTER!

    SATAN'S KINGDOM IS HELL AND HIS DEMONS!EVIL SPIRITS!  THE WORST!

    ADAM'S KINGDOM IS THE SOUL !  GOD'S INTERMEDIATE SPIRIT  THE ABODE OF THE WORD

    LUCIFER'S KINGDOM IS THE WORLD, MATTER!

    WHICH AS SOON AS ADAM THE SOUL SINNED, BECAME LOCKED IN THE EX LUCIFER SUBSTANCE THE MATTER  FLESH

    SATAN WHO WAS IN THE SERPENT ENTERED WITHIN ADAM'S SOUL, THEREFORE THE SOUL DIED SPIRITUALLY!

    ADAM BECAME WORLDLY DEAD MATTER, SINCE SATAN OCCUPIED HIS SOUL DUE TO THE FACT THAT HE USED HIS ASSET SIN, AND THROUGH SIN UNFORTUNATELY ALSO DEATH IN ORDER TO LEAVE LUCIFER'S WORLDLY MATTER AND GO THE SATAN'S KINGDOM HELL

    SO AS YOU CAN SEE THROUGH THESE SPAGHETTI

    YOU ARE AWARE THAT THE FIRST TRIUNE SPIRIT LUCIFER IS:

    THE SPIRIT OF HELL     SATAN

    THE SPIRIT OF THE WORLD   MATTER   LUCIFER

    THE SOUL WHICH NOW IS OWNED BY THE WORD FROM THE CROSS!

    BEFORE REDEMPTION IT WAS ALSO OWNED BY SATAN!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #376102
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 03 2014,09:29)

    Quote (jammin @ April 02 2014,07:52)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 01 2014,11:33)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 31 2014,06:20)
    i did not say that jesus was not God on earth.


    Of course you did, jammin.

    You told me that God doesn't have any limitations, and that anyone who DOES have limitations is not God.

    Then you told me that Jesus DID have limitations on earth.

    So all I have to do is add the things YOU SAID together to come up with a conclusion that Jesus was NOT God on earth.

    See?  YOU are the one who told me this with your own words.  Thanks.  :)


    do you understand english?

    i said i am referring to the HUMAN nature of Christ.
    do you understand that? i think you need a doctor and ask what is the best vitamin for your brain.


    I guess I'm not seeing your point, jammin.

    If Jesus had human nature while he was on earth, then Jesus had limitations while he was on earth, right?  

    And what did YOU tell me about limitations?  Didn't YOU tell me that if one has limitations, that one is not God?

    You can't say that Jesus was God on earth AND ALSO had limitations because of his flesh nature, right?

    Because if he truly was God on earth, then there would be no limitations, right?

    Maybe I'm not understanding what you're trying to say.  Please try again.


    ok let me make this very simple for you to understand.

    jesus has the nature of MAN and nature of God while he was on earth.

    so if your question is about LIMITATIONS of christ, it refers to the human nature. because christ became like us and that is why HE HAD LIMITATIONS.

    HUMAN has limitations.

    BUT if your question is about the nature of God, Christ is all knowing, all powerful, unique, etc

    all knowing

    mat 9.4
    4 But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts?

    all mighty

    Revelation 1:8 (NKJV)
    8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

    he is equal with God
    Philippians 2:6 says that Jesus was in the “form of God”, and that he thought it not robbery to be “equal with God”!

    #376104
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jammin……..if you did and intent study on those scriptures in Phi 2:6, you would find it should read this way, Jesus who existed with the Nature of God thought not to rob God to makes himself equal with him. Jesus could have very easily did that, How by taking credit for the Miracles the were done through him as if they were coming from Him.

    Here is a good example of this , remember when Jesus told Martha Lazarus's  sister, Joh 11:40..Said i not unto you, if you would believe, you should see the glory of God Now Jammin notice the last part of  verse 42 , ……> I said it, that they may believe you have sent me.

    Question, why did Jesus say that?, answer, because it could easily have appeared that Jesus was taking the place of God to Martha and the others around when he said the would see the GLORY OF GOD, that is why he clarified it to God the Father, Had he not it would appear as if he were trying to be “EQUAL” with God and himself doing the Miracle of raising Lazarus back to life, as you falsely Preach.

    peace and love to you and yours………………gene

    #376108
    kerwin
    Participant

    Jammin,

    Quote
    really?? do you mean JOHN was lying when he told that Christ is the Word of God? was john lying when he said that the Word of God is a title of Christ?

    you have to make your own version to support your doctrine.

    Scripture is not broken but you teaching is.  John spoke in symbolism to say that in the future there is a man on a white horse that was called Faithful and True and is called by the  name of the word of God.  John did not say that in the beginning there was a man that was called the word of God while you do. In doing so you add to what is written.

    #376180
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 02 2014,18:25)
    Hi MB,
    As scripture says others are CALLED gods.
    But for us there is ONE GOD, the Father


    It was Jehovah Himself who foretold that Jesus would be called a mighty god, Nick.

    And it was Jehovah Himself who later called him “O God”, right?

    Why do you suppose Jehovah would do such a thing, if Jesus wasn't a god?

    For kicks?

    I just read one of your posts in a different thread, where you spoke about “the god of this world”.  I noticed you didn't call him, “the one who is CALLED the god of this world”.

    Why?  Because USUALLY, when someone is CALLED something, it is because that someone IS that thing.  Do you agree?

    It doesn't really matter, Nick.  You and Wakeup have both shown yourselves to be masters at running away from my points – because you can't figure out a way to explain why Jehovah would call Jesus “O God”,  if Jesus ISN'T really a god.

    And you'll never find a way to explain it, which is why you run from the questions.

    Keep on running if you want….. but you are only running from the scriptural TRUTH of the matter.

    Sometimes, the thoughts that have been “grandfathered in” from men are hard to forget – even when clear scriptures are staring you in the face and telling you that those things aren't true.

    As Professor Jason BeDuhn put it, when discussing how the NWT's “and the Word was a god” was the best of the nine English translations he compared against each other:

    “Surprisingly, only one, the NWT, adheres to the literal meaning of the Greek, and translates ‘a god’.  Translators for the KJV, NRSV, NIV, NAB, NASB, AB, TEV, and LB all approached the text at John 1:1 already believing certain things about the Word, and made sure that the translations came out in accordance with their beliefs.”

    Professor BeDuhn summed up by saying:

    “It can be said that the NWT emerges as the most accurate of the [nine] translations compared.  The translators managed to produce works relatively more accurate and less biased than the translations produced by multi-denominational teams, as well as those produce by single individuals.”

    And concerning the other 8 translations in his study, he said:

    “To me, it expresses a lack of courage, a fear that the Bible does not back up their ‘truth’ enough.  

    To let the Bible have its say, regardless of how well or poorly that say conforms to expectations of accepted forms of modern Christianity is an exercise in courage or, to use another word for it, faith.”

    That's all I'm trying to do, Nick.  I'm trying to let the Bible have its say, regardless of how well or poorly that say conforms to your expectations, or the popularly accepted forms and beliefs of modern Christianity.

    You and most others have been brainwashed by MEN to believe that there LITERALLY exists only one god.  But the Bible NEVER taught such a thing.  Instead, the Bible speaks often of MANY gods, both in heaven and on earth…… and even more often about the ONE of those many gods who is the MOST HIGH God, and the God OF all the other ones.

    You would do well to do away with those false teachings of men, and accept what the Bible REALLY teaches, Nick.

    But I can't force you to do that.

    Suffice to say that John calls Jesus a god twice. Thomas called Jesus a god once. Jehovah called Jesus a god twice. And Paul may or may not have called Jesus a god in a couple of his writings as well.

    All these things are true and scriptural. So when you go around preaching that Jesus was never a god, you preach AGAINST the scriptures.

    #376181
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    Some are CALLED gods as the scripture says
    Moving right along

    #376182
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    Are you one of US?

    For US there is one God, the Father.

    Time to stop playing games with the truth

    #376183
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ April 03 2014,00:16)
    THEREFORE THAT MEDIATOR IS HIMSELF AS THE WORD!


    So “God” NEEDED a mediator, and therefore “God” BECAME that mediator BETWEEN men and “God”? ???

    Poppycock.

    If “God” was the one who was going to become the mediator anyway, then what need did He have FOR a mediator in the first place?

    Did God say, “I cannot talk to these people directly, so I will become a mediator so I CAN talk to them directly!” ?

    Would it still be “GOD” talking to us? How would calling Himself a mediator change the fact that it was still “GOD” talking to us? ???

    Come on, Charles.

    #376184
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ April 03 2014,07:50)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 03 2014,09:29)

    I guess I'm not seeing your point, jammin.

    If Jesus had human nature while he was on earth, then Jesus had limitations while he was on earth, right?  

    And what did YOU tell me about limitations?  Didn't YOU tell me that if one has limitations, that one is not God?

    You can't say that Jesus was God on earth AND ALSO had limitations because of his flesh nature, right?

    Because if he truly was God on earth, then there would be no limitations, right?

    Maybe I'm not understanding what you're trying to say.  Please try again.


    ok let me make this very simple for you to understand.

    jesus has the nature of MAN and nature of God while he was on earth.

    so if your question is about LIMITATIONS of christ, it refers to the human nature. because christ became like us and that is why HE HAD LIMITATIONS.

    HUMAN has limitations.

    BUT if your question is about the nature of God, Christ is all knowing, all powerful, unique, etc


    Nope. Still not any nearer to clearer.

    It seems like you're trying to tell me that someone was both “limited” AND “unlimited” at the same time.

    But surely that must be a misunderstanding on my part, because no sensible person would ever make such a claim, right?

    #376185
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB
    “Because USUALLY, when someone is CALLED something, it is because that someone IS that thing.”

    .1 Corinthians 5:11
    But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one.

    474.2 Thessalonians 2:4
    who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

    .1 Timothy 6:20
    O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called “knowledge”—

    .Revelation 11:8
    And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

    #376186
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ April 03 2014,11:10)
    John spoke in symbolism to say that in the future there is a man on a white horse that was called Faithful and True and is called by the  name of the word of God.  


    Kerwin,

    The Greek says, “the name of him is called the Word of God”.

    It does not say he “is called by the name OF the Word of God” – like you've mistakenly written.

    Quote (kerwin @ April 03 2014,11:10)
    John did not say that in the beginning there was a man that was called the word of God while you do.  In doing so you add to what is written.


    There is no adding, Kerwin.  The entire context of John 1 speaks about Jesus, and how he came to be on earth, dwelling among us with the glory of God's only begotten Son.

    It is no accident that the very apostle who called Jesus “the Word of God” in Revelation 19:13 also called the same person by the same name/title in his gospel, and in one of his letters.

    There is only ONE through whom God created all things.  

    There is only ONE who was sent to be the light of the world for a little while.  

    There is only ONE who John the Baptist came to pave the way for, and testify about.  

    Only ONE has the name by which we can become real children of God.

    These things are all said about Jesus Christ throughout scripture.  But in John 1, all of these things are said about “the Word of God”.

    I know that all of you SEE the obvious link here.  It's just that some of you already have your own personal wishes for who “the Word” should be, and who “Jesus” should be.  Those personal wishes cause those of you to pretend you can't see the obvious link.

    This should help:

    John 1
    14 The Word…. came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    17 ……grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

    Hmmm…….. Grace and truth came from “the Word”?  And grace and truth came from “Jesus Christ”?  Interesting.

    This one should also help:

    15 (John testified concerning [the Word]. He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”)

    29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said…….

    30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’

    So John the Baptist said the EXACT SAME WORDS about “the Word” as he said about “Jesus”?  Even more interesting, huh?

    Anyway, all of this is wasted on you guys, because you already know what it is you WANT to believe, and will therefore believe that no matter what the scriptures actually teach.

    How sad for you.

    #376187
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 03 2014,18:42)
    Hi MB,
    Some are CALLED gods as the scripture says
    Moving right along


    And what does it mean that they are called gods, Nick?

    Hmmm……. Well, what does it mean that David was called a king? Doesn't it mean David WAS a king?

    How about when Abraham was called a lord? Didn't it mean he WAS a lord?

    Moses was called “a man of God”. Doesn't that most likely mean that Moses WAS “a man of God”?

    Whose the one playing games with the truth now, Nick?

    #376188
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    So logic again forms a false foundation for you and you struggle to grasp what is spiritual?

    #376190
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    Your approach is always in defence of your dogmas.
    When did you stop searching for truth?

    #376192
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 03 2014,19:12)
    Hi MB
    “Because USUALLY, when someone is CALLED something, it is because that someone IS that thing.”

    .1 Corinthians 5:11
    But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one.

    474.2 Thessalonians 2:4
    who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.


    Is that what Jehovah meant when He twice called Jesus a god, Nick?

    Was Jehovah calling Jesus one of the “so-called fake gods” in a derogatory sense, like the scriptures you've posted convey?

    You also forget the last words of 1 Corinthians 8:5, which clearly and directly say, “as indeed there ARE many gods, and many lords”.

    If the “gods” Paul mentioned are all just fake “so-called gods”, then wouldn't the lords he mentioned also be fake “so-called lords”?  On the other hand, if the “lords” are real, then why not the “gods”?

    You're trying your best to make the scriptures null and void – but it will never work.

    Nick, is it possible for Jehovah to be the God OF gods – if He is literally the ONLY god?

    Is it possible for Him to be the MOST HIGH God – if there are no less high gods with which to compare His highness?

    In your quest to nullify the scriptures, you'll also have to find ways to do away with those two scriptural teachings.

    #376193
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 03 2014,19:32)
    Hi MB,
    So logic again forms a false foundation for you and you struggle to grasp what is spiritual?


    That isn't an answer to my questions, Nick. It is mindless tripe.

    I will take that mindless tripe to mean, “Yes Mike, David was called a king because he WAS a king, and Abraham was called a lord because he WAS a lord, and Moses was called a man of God because he WAS a man of God.”

    Because THAT is the only honest answer to those questions, Nick.

    So you're welcome for me helping you to be more honest.

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