John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 16,321 through 16,340 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #375490
    journey42
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 30 2014,04:14)

    Quote (journey42 @ Mar. 27 2014,20:40)
    I say he knew exactly what he was doing.
    keeping the understanding hidden from wolves in sheep's clothing……….


    So those who know that God, who never changes, did NOT become His own servant, are “wolves in sheep's clothing”?

    journey, our one and only God was never WITH our one and only God.

    Nor did something that used to BE God Himself become a different living, breathing being who serves the God he used to be.


    Mike

    I am doing my best to address ALL your questions.
    I would appreciate the same respect.
    You keep half quoting me.
    You said that God should of written it this way,
    This is what I answered.

    Quote
    Who are we to say how God should of explained it?
    I say he didn't explain it wrong.
    I say he knew exactly what he was doing.
    keeping the understanding hidden from wolves in sheep's clothing, and making this verse true;

    Those wolves in sheep's clothing are the ones that told you not to trust the holy bible, that it's worded wrong. So they made their own bible instead from some fragments, which do not agree with the 95% of copies that agree with that bible you hate so much, and issued out for the first time in history to the gentiles all over the world without it being against the law, and having a death penalty attached to reading it,
    ……. and besides a few little printing errors, or commentaries that have been taking away, and things that don't belong, it REMAINS UNCHANGED TO THIS VERY DAY, never needing to be REVISED.

    God never changes Mike.
    Because he gives his WORD to have life in himself, does not mean that the WORD has departed from him.
    It is still there with him as powerful as ever,
    and even more powerful because now there are two, speaking the SAME WORD,

    There was no need to rephrase in the beginning “and the Word was A God” because there was no other God beside himself, and the scriptures I gave you confirm that he was by himself, and his LIVING WORD, had not yet transformed into the man Jesus Christ and given all power and authority to be served and worshiped as God with his own identity.
    And there is still and will always be only ONE GOD,
    and the fact God called Jesus God, is because he is now worshipped also and has the power to forgive sins, and hold the keys to death and hell. Because God gave him that power.
    So no two God's in heaven, in the beginning, only ONE GOD working through HIS VERY OWN WORD who he gave life to have in himself, but under total subjection and control, until he was made flesh, and given his own will to carry out his obedience through choice now, and not control.

    #375491
    journey42
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Mar. 30 2014,05:27][/quote]

    Quote
    God “gave us” the Coptic translation hundreds of years BEFORE He “gave us” the KJV, journey.  Are you missing this fact?

    Then why did he not send it out to the gentiles at the command of a king, who had the power to change the Law and not persecute anyone for reading it?
    Why not send out the Coptic Version to the gentiles?
    Why send it out 400 years later?
    Why trick all the people?
    “Boobytrap,”
    “I fooled you's all”
    “ha ha”, I left my real word in “Egypt” in the land of the pharoah's and idles, and endless gods,
    in the land I freed my people from,
    and the land I now call my people “Sodom and Egypt”
    because of their detestable ways
    I hid my word there,”?

    #375501
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (journey42 @ Mar. 30 2014,04:05)
    You keep half quoting me.


    I quote the parts of your post that I am responding to, journey.  There is no reason to keep re-quoting the entire post each time.  In fact, t8 and I have worked to keep others here from doing that.  There is no reason to have a post that has 27 different quote boxes within it, displaying an entire week-long discussion – when all you're doing is replying to the very last part.

    Quote (journey42 @ Mar. 30 2014,04:05)
    Those wolves in sheep's clothing are the ones that told you not to trust the holy bible, that it's worded wrong.


    To get a translation of, “and the Word was God”, the translator must ADD the definite article “THE” to John's original words.  But this is something John himself could have done when he originally wrote 1:1…………. IF he wanted the last part to say, “and the word was THE god”.

    There is a REASON John wrote “THE logos” two times, and “THE god” only one time, journey.  Aren't you curious about WHY John DIDN'T write, “and the word was THE god” – when he certainly COULD HAVE?

    I trust in the Holy Bible that was written in Hebrew and Greek.  Don't confuse the often-flawed English TRANSLATIONS of those Hebrew and Greek words with “the Holy Bible” itself.  They are often two completely different things.

    Quote (journey42 @ Mar. 30 2014,04:05)
    God never changes Mike.
    Because he gives his WORD to have life in himself, does not mean that the WORD has departed from him………


    Are you saying the Word who became flesh REMAINED the very God it was brought forth from?  Or was the Word who became flesh a completely DIFFERENT living, breathing being after it was brought forth from Jehovah?  

    If your understanding is the latter, then you have a case of a living, breathing being who USED TO BE God Himself, but who is no longer God Himself.   And that understanding directly contradicts your first statement that God never changes.

    Quote (journey42 @ Mar. 30 2014,04:05)
    It is still there with him as powerful as ever,
    and even more powerful because now there are two, speaking the SAME WORD.


    Two WHAT, journey?  Two gods?

    Quote (journey42 @ Mar. 30 2014,04:05)
    There was no need to rephrase in the beginning “and the Word was A God” because there was no other God beside himself………


    So what about AFTER God spoke this Word out of His mouth – or whatever it is you believe?  Was there another god beside Him THEN?  Or was this new “Word-being” not a god at all?  And if not, then what WAS this new being who later became flesh?

    Quote (journey42 @ Mar. 30 2014,04:05)
    And there is still and will always be only ONE GOD,
    and the fact God called Jesus God, is because he is now worshipped also and has the power to forgive sins, and hold the keys to death and hell.  Because God gave him that power.


    God gave WHO that power, journey?  Did Jehovah give that power to HIMSELF?  If not, then the person Jehovah GAVE that power to is NOT Jehovah Himself, and should therefore NOT be worshipped and served as if he IS Jehovah Himself.

    #375504
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=Wakeup,Mar. 30 2014,08:40][/quote]

    Quote
    Speaking of the resurrection.
    They are born of God's woman,she is spirit.

    Wakeup,

    WHERE IN SCRIPTURE WE CAN READ:

    THEY ARE BORN OF GOD'S WOMAN, SHE IS SPIRIT!

    DON'T KEEP BUILDING UP SUCH INVENTIONS!

    UP TO NOW YOU BUILT TWO:

    THE FIRST ONE WAS:

    THEY WERE BORN BY THE WILL OF GOD!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #375505
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (journey42 @ Mar. 30 2014,04:15)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 30 2014,05:27)

    God “gave us” the Coptic translation hundreds of years BEFORE He “gave us” the KJV, journey.  Are you missing this fact?

    Then why did he not send it out to the gentiles at the command of a king, who had the power to change the Law and not persecute anyone for reading it?
    Why not send out the Coptic Version to the gentiles?
    Why send it out 400 years later?
    Why trick all the people?
    “Boobytrap,”
    “I fooled you's all”
    “ha ha”, I left my real word in “Egypt” in the land of the pharoah's and idles, and endless gods,
    in the land I freed my people from,
    and the land I now call my people “Sodom and Egypt”
    because of their detestable ways
    I hid my word there,”?


    There was no “booby trap”, journey.  The Greek teaching John wrote was already about a god who was with THE god in the beginning.

    But it wasn't until the Greek was translated into a language that uses the indefinite article “a” that “a god” could be written.

    journey, even the Trinitarian expert scholars know that the Word couldn't have been THE very God he was WITH in the beginning.

    Daniel B. Wallace says, Its lack of a definite article keeps us from identifying the person of the Word (Jesus Christ) with the person of “God” (the Father).

    The 25 Trinitarian scholars of NET Bible say, The construction in John 1:1c does not equate the Word with the person of God (this is ruled out by 1:1b, “the Word was with God”)

    From Professor Jason David BeDuhn’s book TRUTH IN TRANSLATION:  ACCURACY AND BIAS IN ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS OF THE NEW TESTAMENT: “Surprisingly, only one, the NWT, adheres to the literal meaning of the Greek, and translates ‘a god’.  

    Translators for the KJV, NRSV, NIV, NAB, NASB, AB, TEV, and LB all approached the text at John 1:1 already believing certain things about the Word, and made sure that the translations came out in accordance with their beliefs.  Ironically, some of these same scholars a quick to charge the NW translation with ‘doctrinal bias’ for translating the verse literally, free of KJV influence, following the sense of the Greek.  It may very well be that the NW translators came to the task of translating John 1:1 with as much bias as the other translators did.  It just so happens that their bias corresponds in this case to a more accurate translation of the Greek.

    Trinitarian scholar Murray J. Harris has written: “Accordingly, from the point of view of grammar alone, [QEOS HN hO LOGOS] could be rendered “the Word was a god,….”

    Trinitarian scholar C. H. Dodd says: “……a possible translation of [QEOS EN hO LOGOS]; would be, “The Word was a god”. As a word-for-word translation it cannot be faulted.

    And here are just a few of the many translations that don't fall victim to, “and the Word was God”:

    1808 “and the Word was a god” – Thomas Belsham The New Testament, in An Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text , London.

    1864 “and a god was the Word” The Emphatic Diaglott by Benjamin Wilson, New York and London.

    1935 “and the Word was divine” – The Bible—An American Translation, by John M. P. Smith and Edgar J. Goodspeed, Chicago.

    1955 “so the Word was divine” – The Authentic New Testament, by Hugh J. Schonfield, Aberdeen.

    1978 “and godlike sort was the Logos” – Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider, Berlin.

    1822 “and the Word was a god.” – The New Testament in Greek and English (A. Kneeland, 1822.);

    1863 “and the Word was a god.” – A Literal Translation Of The New Testament (Herman Heinfetter [Pseudonym of Frederick Parker], 1863);

    1885 “and the Word was a god.” – Concise Commentary On The Holy Bible (R. Young, 1885);

    1879 “and the Word was a god.” – Das Evangelium nach Johannes (J. Becker, 1979);

    1911 “and the Word was a god.” – The Coptic Version of the N.T. (G. W. Horner, 1911);

    1958 “and the Word was a god.” – The New Testament of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Anointed” (J. L. Tomanec, 1958);

    1829 “and the Word was a god.” – The Monotessaron; or, The Gospel History According to the Four Evangelists (J. S. Thompson, 1829);

    1975 “and the Word was a god.” – Das Evangelium nach Johannes (S. Schulz, 1975);

    1975 “and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word” Das Evangelium nach Johnnes, by Siegfried Schulz, Göttingen, Germany

    So it is not just the Coptic and NWT translations, journey. There are many people, Trinitarian and non-Trinitarian alike, who know that John wasn't trying to tell us that THE God was with THE God.

    Whether you ever understand this fact remains to be seen.

    #375506
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    journey,

    Maybe this will help:

    Acts 12:22 King James Version
    And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man.

    In the Greek, this says the crowd shouted that it was the voice “of god and not of man”.

    Now I could say that the KJV is wrong, because they ADD the word “a” before “god” and before “man”.  That word isn't in the Greek language… so why do they ADD it, journey?

    They add it BECAUSE they know that the Greek language doesn't use an indefinite article, but English does.  And they know by the fact that Luke DIDN'T write, “the voice of THE god”, that he wasn't talking about people who thought Herod was THE God Jehovah.

    Do you understand yet?  Luke COULD HAVE written, “the voice of THE god”………. IF Luke had wanted to teach us that the people thought Herod spoke with the voice of THE God.

    But since Luke didn't have the CHOICE of writing “the voice of A god” – because his language didn't have the word “a” – we can know he MEANT “a god” from the fact that he DIDN'T write THE god”.

    It is the same in John 1:1.  If John wanted us to believe the Word was THE God, then John could have simply WRITTEN that the Word was THE God.  The fact that John DIDN'T write THE god” in part c tells us that John MEANT that the Word was A god…….. just like in Acts 12:22.

    Do you understand this? Do you understand that the KJV translators ADDED the word “a”, forming the phrase “a god”, 36 times in their Bible?

    Yet they didn't do it in John 1:1c. It is not because “a god” shouldn't be in 1:1c, journey. It is because these MEN who translated the KJV were Trinitarians, and although they knew that “a god” was meant by John, “God” fit their own “truth” better.

    From Professor Jason BeDuhn, who I quoted in that last post:

    “To me, it expresses a lack of courage, a fear that the Bible does not back up their ‘truth’ enough. To let the Bible have its say, regardless of how well or poorly that say conforms to expectations of accepted forms of modern Christianity is an exercise in courage or, to use another word for it, faith.”

    #375507
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    For us there is one God.
    For US

    #375511
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    You only quoted a part of the statement, Nick.

    …as indeed there ARE many gods and many lords, both in heaven and on earth………. yet for us there is but one God, the Father………..

    The point is that many gods do indeed exist – both in heaven and on the earth.  But for us, the metaphorical nation of Israel, there is only one of those many gods who is worthy of our worship and service.

    See?  When you put it in CONTEXT, the true meaning is revealed.  The point is not that there LITERALLY exists only one god.  The point is that we (“US”) worship and serve only one of those MANY gods as “OUR God”.

    We also serve His holy servant Jesus Christ, who Jehovah made both King and Lord over us.  But we don't worship the servant as we worship the God who created that servant.

    And the fact that we only worship ONE god as “Our God” doesn't change the fact that many of that God's servants are themselves some of the other gods Paul mentioned.

    The spirit sons of that one God we worship are also gods, Nick. Scripture tells us this fact. Jesus, as the firstborn of all those spirit sons of God, is called a god 5 times in scripture.

    So Jesus definitely IS a god, and he is the god who was with “THE God” in the beginning. But he is not the Most High God he serves along with us – and is therefore not to be worshipped by us.

    #375514
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    Jesus was never a god.

    He became the Son of God.
    The Word became flesh

    #375523
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Mar. 31 2014,03:50)
    [quote=Wakeup,Mar. 30 2014,08:40][/quote]

    Quote
    Speaking of the resurrection.
    They are born of God's woman,she is spirit.

    Wakeup,

    WHERE IN SCRIPTURE WE CAN READ:

    THEY ARE BORN OF GOD'S WOMAN, SHE IS SPIRIT!

    DON'T KEEP BUILDING UP SUCH INVENTIONS!

    UP TO NOW YOU BUILT TWO:

    THE FIRST ONE WAS:

    THEY WERE BORN BY THE WILL OF GOD!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Carmel.

    Isaiah 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day?
    ***or shall a nation be born at once***?
    ***for as soon as Zion travailed, SHE brought forth her
    children***.

    TRAVAILED=TRIBULATION. AFTER THE TRIBULATION SHE
    WILL GIVE BIRTH TO ALL HER CHILDREN.

    ZION WILL GIVE BIRTH TO HER CHILDREN AT ONCE.
    THIS IS AT THE RESURRECTION.
    THIS IS BORN *ONCE MORE*.BORN AGAIN.

    ZION, SHE IS SPIRIT AND HER CHILDREN WILL BE BORN SPIRIT.

    wakeup.

    #375525
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2014,07:40)
    Hi MB,
    Jesus was never a god.

    He became the Son of God.
    The Word became flesh


    Nick.

    Why can you see, and understand,
    and mike is still bogged down?

    wakeup.

    #375527
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    Try to see the work of God.
    Making men gods is what the unbelievers did.

    .Acts 14:11
    And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.

    .Acts 17:18
    Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.

    #375532
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Wakeup @ Mar. 30 2014,15:10)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2014,07:40)
    Hi MB,
    Jesus was never a god.

    He became the Son of God.
    The Word became flesh


    Nick.

    Why can you see, and understand,
    and mike is still bogged down?

    wakeup.


    Isaiah 9:6
    For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given……. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God………..

    Hebrews 1:8
    But about the Son he says,

    “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
    a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.”

    1. Who is the son that is called “Mighty God” in Isaiah 9:6?

    2. Who is the son that is called “O God” in Hebrews 1:8?

    Nick makes a statement that directly CONTRADICTS these two SCRIPTURES. And Wakeup jumps on board with him and calls me “bogged down”.

    How rich. :)

    #375533
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    Try to see what our God has done through this man.
    The rest is just distraction

    #375534
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 30 2014,15:25)
    Hi MB,
    Try to see the work of God.


    Nick,

    Try to answer the 2 questions I asked in my last post. Oh, and answer them DIRECTLY.

    #375535
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 30 2014,15:39)
    Hi MB,
    Try to see what our God has done through this man.
    The rest is just distraction


    Nick,

    Try to answer those two questions. The rest of your words are just distractions.

    #375536
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi MB,
    For us there is one God.

    But you wish to speak of the other so called gods such as men and angels and lumps of wood and stone?

    Why should we focus on your distractions.

    #375538
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 30 2014,08:05)
    Hi KW,
    The Holy Spirit brings gifts.
    The Spirit of Christ manifested in the Prophets who were judged as clean by God.
    None received the Spirit of Christ under the new covenant till he returned to God and the Spirit was shared.


    Nick,

    Some of what you say is unclear. The prophets spoke the word of God as they were carried along by the Spirit. That is the gift the Spirit gave them. They were merely credited with righteousness for their faith but better things remain for those who live by the Spirit of Christ.

    #375542
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 30 2014,15:44)
    Hi MB,
    For us there is one God.

    But you wish to speak of the other so called gods such as men and angels and lumps of wood and stone?

    Why should we focus on your distractions.


    You are the one trying to distract, Nick.

    They are simple questions that anyone with a Bible can answer. So why can't you answer them?

    Here they are again:

    1. Who is the “god” in Isaiah 9:6?

    2. Who is the “god” in Hebrews 1:8?

    (Hint: This person is also called “son” in both of those verses. Does that help?)

    #375543
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi KW.
    The gift of prophecy was manifested in God's servants, the prophets.

    Our hope is to sit and dine with them in the kingdom

    1.Matthew 8:11
    And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

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