John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 16,301 through 16,320 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #375382
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Carmel.

    The will of God is that all in him should be one,
    and be His children. Holy and true.

    wakeup.

    #375388
    kerwin
    Participant

    Wakeup,

    There is only one passage in Scripture that literally speaks of baptism with the holy spirit that is nowhere in the book of Acts. That means you are claiming that a person who exhibits the gift of the Spirit has been immersed in the spirit. I know of no evidence that supports that claim and plenty of evidence that opposes that claim. The 70 elders and King Saul exhibited the gift and yet they were under the old covenant and not the new. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a gift of the new covenant and not the old.

    #375402
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 30 2014,01:21)
    Wakeup,

    There is only one passage in Scripture that literally speaks of baptism with the holy spirit that is nowhere in the book of Acts.  That means you are claiming that a person who exhibits the gift of the Spirit has been immersed in the spirit.  I know of no evidence that supports that claim and plenty of evidence that opposes that claim.  The 70 elders and King Saul exhibited the gift and yet they were under the old covenant and not the new.  The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a gift of the new covenant and not the old.


    Kerwin.

    You are speaking of the baptism of the HS.
    All must go through Christ.
    The jews of old dont have that chance.
    They also must go through Christ.That will happen in the kingdom.

    If one has the HS he can understand the written word.
    Because their eyes are opened.

    Some partly,some more,some all.Depending on the hunger in them.
    Water can not do that.

    wakeup.

    #375404
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (journey42 @ Mar. 27 2014,20:40)
    I say he knew exactly what he was doing.
    keeping the understanding hidden from wolves in sheep's clothing……….


    So those who know that God, who never changes, did NOT become His own servant, are “wolves in sheep's clothing”?

    journey, our one and only God was never WITH our one and only God.

    Nor did something that used to BE God Himself become a different living, breathing being who serves the God he used to be.

    #375405
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (journey42 @ Mar. 27 2014,20:46)
    It's revealing who Christ is, and revealing in the background who the Word originally was for those weaned off the milk.


    But your understanding is that the Christ OF God used to actually BE the very God he is now the Christ OF.

    How can “God” become “NOT-God”, and begin to serve the God he used to BE?

    #375407
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi WU,
    “To receive Him is also to follow Him.”
    No this has no scriptural basis.

    #375418
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    journey,

    This post is quite long, and explains much.  I hope you read it all – for none of it is my “opinion”.  Instead, it is all just FACTS that you need to know.

    Quote (journey42 @ Mar. 27 2014,20:52)

    Quote (mikeboll @ 64)
    One of the very first languages into which the Greek NT was translated was the Coptic language. Somewhere around 200-300 A.D., I believe.  The Coptic language was the very first language into which the NT was translated that uses an indefinite article like English does.  And the Coptic people translated John 1:1 as, “and the Word was A god.

    You see Mike, it always comes down to this.
    You telling us not to trust what God first gave us.  The truth in his Word.


    God “gave us” the Coptic translation hundreds of years BEFORE He “gave us” the KJV, journey.  Are you missing this fact?

    Quote (journey42 @ Mar. 27 2014,20:52)

    Quote (mikeboll @ 64)
    That means that at the VERY FIRST opportunity someone had to translate 1:1 as “a god” – they did it.  Long, long, long BEFORE your KJV translated it as “God”.


    This came after the holy bible was introduced to the gentiles, and completely contrary to the 95% of copies found, and started a new Religion and preached a different gospel…….


    You are mistaken, journey.  The Greek language does not use an indefinite article.  That means if John wanted to tell us that the Word was a god who was with THE god, he would have written it exactly the way he DID write it.

    If, on the other hand, John wanted to tell us that the Word was THE god he was with, he would have written, “the word was with THE god, and the word was THE god.  See?  John had the CHOICE of writing that the Word was with THE god……. and he DID.  John also had the CHOICE of writing that the Word was THE god…….. but he DIDN'T.

    And what we can take away from that is that John definitely DIDN'T want to tell us that the Word WAS the very God he was WITH.  Nor was he telling us that the Word USED TO BE the very God he was now WITH.

    Do you understand this?  John had a clear way of writing those ideas – if that is what he wanted to teach us.  But John chose NOT to write it that way, because that is NOT what he was trying to teach us.

    The English translators who ADD the definite article into 1:1c are purposely ALTERING the teaching John wrote for us.  Because the Greek language DOES use the definite article “the”, and therefore John COULD HAVE written that the Word was THE god if he wanted to.

    Let me try to explain it this way:  If we wanted to say Jehovah was THE god, and Satan was A god in English, we would say:  “Jehovah is THE God, and Satan is A god.”  Are you with me so far?

    Now, since the Greek language does not use the indefinite article “a”, if JOHN wanted to tell us that Jehovah was THE god, and Satan was A god, he would have written:  “Jehovah is THE god, and Satan is god.”

    Can you see it yet?  “Satan is god”.  That is the only way John could have written that Satan is A god who is not THE god.  He couldn't write “Satan is A god”, because his language didn't use “a”.  So he would have distinguished Satan from Jehovah by saying Jehovah was THE god – and then NOT using the word “THE” for the Satan part.  Get it?  “Jehovah is THE god, Satan is god.”

    And that's exactly what John did in 1:1.  His language wouldn't allow him to write, “and the Word was a god”, so he did the only thing he could.  He USED the definite article in the first part (“the word was with THE god”), and then he purposely CHOSE NOT to use that definite article in the last part (“the word was god”).  His choice NOT to use the definite article in the last part was the only way in the Greek language he could distinguish the Word as a god who was with THE god.

    Quote (journey42 @ Mar. 27 2014,20:52)
    The Coptic translation produced a NEW RELIGION.  The Jehovah Witnesses.  A different gospel with the guise of being the same.  The Coptic translation condemns the fact that God made Jesus equal to himself, in the sense of having all knowlege and holiness, and power on this earth, given to him from God, and instead wants us to believe that Jesus is in fact equal to the angels, and claim Christ is an angel, so you see, it produced a “new doctrine”.


    Again, you are completely wrong, and speaking against the facts, journey.  You are not speaking against “my opinion”, but against the concrete FACTS of the matter.

    The FACT is that the only way the languages before Coptic COULD distinguish the difference between THE god, and A god who was with Him in the beginning, was to NOT call that second god “THE god”.  So that's what they did.  They called the first god “THE god”, and DIDN'T call the second god “THE god”.  

    Then came the translation into the Coptic language, which was the first language that had the chance to distinguish “THE god” from “A god”…….. because it was the first language that USED the indefinite article “a” – like English does.

    And those people who had the first possible CHANCE to distinguish “THE god” from “A god” he was with, DID JUST THAT.  Their version was not a “new religion”, journey.  Instead, it was the first time that the ORIGINAL teaching could be written with an indefinite article.

    So although the ORIGINAL teaching was ALWAYS that “THE god was with A god in the beginning”, it wasn't until the Coptic language that this ORIGINAL teaching could be written using the indefinite article “a”.

    So like I said, the very FIRST chance anyone ever had at translating the Greek as, “and the Word was a god”, they did it.  And this was in the 2nd or 3rd century A.D., journey.  HUNDREDS of years BEFORE the KJV people ADDED the definite article “THE” into John's original writing.  Remember, John COULD HAVE written “THE” into that last part…….. IF that is what John wanted to teach us.  But John DIDN'T write “THE” for a reason.  So who are the KJV people to come and ALTER John's teaching, by ADDING the definite article “THE” into that last part, when John specifically CHOSE NOT to put it in his original?

    Also, you should know that the translation into the Coptic language took place WHILE the original koine Greek language (that the NT was written in) was still being widely spoken.  This tells us that the Coptic translation didn't make a riff, or change the teaching of John 1:1.  It merely used the indefinite article “a” to say what John was already saying in the original koine Greek language.

    So the “NEW RELIGION” wasn't making use of the indefinite article that John couldn't possibly have used.  The “NEW RELIGION” came about when men started adding the definite article “THE” into the last part of 1:1 – a word that John himself could have written IF that is what John wanted to teach us.

    John chose NOT to use it in part c.  So why would men later take it upon themselves to ADD it………. thereby ALTERING the teaching John wrote, and ending up with the completely NONSENSICAL statement that the Word actually WAS the very God he was WITH in the beginning.

    This completely nonsensical and ALTERED translation of John's original words has stemmed many equally NONSENSICAL understandings.

    The Trinitarians use this flawed translation to pretend that the “God person of Jesus” was with the “God person of the Father”.  Curiously, they don't seem to have any idea where their “God person of the Holy Spirit” was at that time – or why he was not mentioned at all.

    And you and Wakeup use that flawed translation to come to the conclusion that something that USED TO BE God Himself, ended up becoming a different being, who then served the God he used to BE.

    It's time to face the truth, journey.  Jesus is often called a god in scripture.  But in those verses, he is ALWAYS distinguished from THE God, Jehovah.

    For example, in Isaiah 9:6, Jesus is foretold to be called a mighty god, but verse 7 tells us that is the zeal of THE God, Jehovah, who will do this.

    And in Hebrews 1:8, Jesus is called a god whose throne will last forever, but verse 9 tells us that this is because THE God Jehovah has set Jesus above his companions.

    See what I mean?  Jesus is definitely “A god” according to scripture.  But he is always distinguished from “THE god” who is his own God.

    And all of this aligns EXACTLY with the fact that Jesus was A god who was with THE god in the beginning – as taught by John in 1:1.

    #375419
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 27 2014,21:14)
    and yes Jesus was an angel ;because the translation of that name means MESSENGER , but it also is used to point to heavenly spirit beings ,things it seems you do not want to see ,


    That is correct, Pierre.

    The English word “angel” is used to translate the Hebrew word “ma'lak” – which means “messenger”……. and the Greek word “aggelos” – which also means “messenger”.

    When the “messenger” in question is thought by the English translators to be a SPIRIT BEING messenger – we use the English word “angel”.

    So basically, an “angel” is a spirit messenger. Revelation 1:1 makes it clear that Jesus, now as a spirit being, is still a messenger of his and our God, Jehovah. And if Jesus is a “spirit messenger of God”, then by definition, Jesus is an “angel of God”.

    The word generally refers to any spirit being who is NOT God Almighty Himself. That fits Michael, Gabriel, Satan, and also Jesus.

    #375420
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (journey42 @ Mar. 27 2014,21:30)

    Quote (mikeboll @ 64)
    Yeah, but of WHAT were they created?  Did there exist other things at that time that God made them OUT OF?

    Mike this is what you do, only put in half of my answer.
    This is what I said.

    God spoke and they were created.
    With his wisdom he designed them,
    and with his WORD he commanded them into existence,
    just like he made everything else that exists.

    The angels were created spirit.  Heavenly creatures.


    Okay…….. I left your entire statement in there this time.  But I'm STILL waiting for you to tell me WHAT those other spirit sons of God were made OF.

    If there was NOTHING ELSE in existence, then they too must have been made out of “God-stuff” – just like God's firstborn Son, Jesus Christ.

    Can you REFUTE that claim?  If so, then do so.

    Quote (journey42 @ Mar. 27 2014,21:30)
    So before creation, there was just God and His Word beside him ready to start creating everything together.


    Okay.  So since God and His Word were the only things in existence, the other spirit sons of God were either made out of “God” – or they were made out of the Word, who was himself made out of God, meaning that the other spirit sons were ultimately also made out of “God” – just like the Word.

    Quote (journey42 @ Mar. 27 2014,21:30)
    No.  This is where your mind has crossed a wire.
    The “FIRSTBORN SPIRIT SON” was the “FIRSTBORN OF THE DEAD”.  First to be resurrected from flesh to spirit.
    Died flesh, rose to Spirit.  FIRSTBORN OF THE DEAD.
    Not FIRSTBORN IN HEAVEN.  
    The WORD was never born, or created,  but was always there, whether inside God or out beside him.  


    I haven't crossed a wire, journey.  It's more a matter of you ignoring certain clear scriptures.  Proverbs 8:22 speaks of Jesus as “wisdom”, and says God created him as the first of His works.

    Colossians 1:15 says Jesus was the firstborn of every creature – which logically means that Jesus was the first creature ever created/born.

    And in Revelation 3:14, Jesus calls himself the beginning of the creation by God – which also logically means that Jesus was the first thing God ever created.

    Also, the word “Son”, in and of itself, refers to someone who was GIVEN EXISTENCE by another who is called “father”.

    No “son” has existed for as long as the father who begot him, journey.  Sons BEGIN to exist when their fathers beget them.  (Psalm 2:7)

    #375421
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (journey42 @ Mar. 27 2014,21:48)

    Quote (mikeboll @ 64)
    Was he inside of God as a living, breathing BEING before God brought him out?


    The Word was God Mike, before God brought him out.
    There was just God with his Word INSIDE HIM.
    THERE WAS ONE.


    Does that mean, “NO Mike – the Word WASN'T a living, breathing being before God brought him out.” ?

    I need a CLEAR answer, journey.

    #375422
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (journey42 @ Mar. 27 2014,21:48)
    I hope you understand this much clearer now, that this question is based on what you perceived wrongly “the Firstborn” as really meaning. Now you know it means, “Firstborn of the DEAD”. – FIRST RESURRECTED.


    I know the DIFFERENCE between “firstborn from the dead” and “firstborn of every creature”, journey. I know they mean completely different things.

    Do YOU think they mean the same exact thing?

    #375423
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 28 2014,07:49)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 28 2014,10:23)

    Quote (jammin @ Mar. 26 2014,06:20)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 26 2014,13:39)

    I only need to accept the words YOU said, jammin.

    If he has limitations, then he is not God.

    Jesus has limitations.  That should clear it up once and for all, right?


    that is the HUMAN nature of JESUS.

    do you understand?


    So Jesus exists right now with both human and God natures?

    If that was the case, then I would be right in saying Jesus has limitations, right?  And you told me that if one has limitations, that one is not “God”.

    But let me ask you this, jammin:  Which of Jesus' two natures will destroy his enemies – the last of which will be death?


    1. as i have said, if you are talking about the human nature then my answer is YES. as HUMAN, we have limitations. as GOD, no limitations.

    2. for your second question, create a thread for that one


    1. So then we both agree that Jesus was NOT God on earth. Good.

    2. You don't have to answer, jammin. But we both know that it is Jesus in his EXALTED SPIRIT NATURE that will subdue Satan, Satan's angels, and death itself.

    And since Jesus – even in his EXALTED SPIRIT NATURE – still needs his own God Jehovah to place those enemies at his feet before he can destroy them, we know that Jesus STILL has limitations. And according to your own words, a person who has limitations is NOT God.

    Case closed.

    #375424
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Mar. 28 2014,15:23)

    Quote
    No Charles,

    God is able to create children for Abraham out of stones of the field.  He doesn't NEED anything, or anyone.

    Never has, never will.

    YES MIKE I KNOW ALL ABOUT THAT,

    BUT DID HE NEED HIS SON?

    OR RATHER HE IS HIMSELF IN HIS SON'S BODY!

    OR EVEN RATHER HE EMANATED HIS OWN SPIRIT SUBSTANCE INTO FLESH SUBSTANCE, AND ABIDED IN HIMSELF AS JESUS!

    IN THAT WAY HE WAS FOR SURE IN NO NEED OF HIS SON!

    WON'T HE?

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Charles,

    You are missing the point. The fact that God CHOOSES to do certain things certain ways does not mean that God NEEDS anyone, or anything.

    You are correct that God never NEEDED to create Jesus as His firstborn Son…….. but God CHOSE to do that.

    God didn't NEED to atone for our sins by the sacrifice of that firstborn Son…….. but God CHOSE to do it that way.

    Don't confuse “CHOICE” with “NEED”.

    #375430
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=Gene Balthrop,Mar. 29 2014,01:48][/quote]

    Quote
    To all………..Baptism is required, but it does not guarantee receiving the Holy Spirit of God. Many have been baptized and have not the Spirit. And some received the Spirit before they were baptized.

    Gene,

    THE BAPTISM WAS ONLY ESSENTIAL FOR THE SAME AMOUNT OF YEARS! FROM ABRAHAM, TO JESUS! APPROXIMATELY 1700 YEARS!

    TODAY, BAPTISM IS NON EFFECTIVE AS YOU WELL SAID HEREUNDER,

    Quote
    Many have been baptized and have not the Spirit.
    And some received the Spirit before they were baptised.

    WATER BAPTISM WAS NEVER ESSENTIAL AS SUCH.

    THAT WAS TEMPORARY TILL JESUS ACCOMPLISHED HIS REDEMPTION!

    JOHN HIMSELF DECLARED THIS

    JOHN1:31 ……….., BUT THAT HE MAY BE MADE MANIFEST IN ISRAEL , THEREFORE AM I COME BAPTIZING WITH WATER.

    SO BAPTISM WAS ONLY TEMPORARY BY JOHN TO MANIFEST JESUS IN ISRAEL!  

    ISRAEL SYMBOLICALLY WAS LUCIFER/SATANA!

    TODAY ALL BIRTHS ARE AUTOMATICALLY BEING BORN OF GOD, THE PROPERTY OF GOD! THROUGH THE WORD WHO WAS SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD! REV:13 :8 WHOM THE FATHER SEALED! JOHN 6:27

    REFLECT:

    John 1:9 That was the true light, which enlighteneth EVERY MAN THAT COMES INTO THE WORLD

    SO  FROM THE CROSS, JESUS, THE SON, OFFICIALLY AS THE WORD BECAME THE ABSOLUTE OWNER OF THE ENTIRE PROCESS THROUGH NATURE FOR PRODUCING SOULS, AND THEIR BIRTHS IN HUMAN FLESH BODIES FROM CONCEPTION!

    SO GOD IS IN FULL CONTROL OF THE ENTIRE REDEPTION PROCESS!

    SO ONCE A PERSON BEELIEVES IN JESUS NAME, HE BECOMES HIS! HE WILL RECEIVES THE HOLY SPIRIT!

    NOTWITHSTANDING THE FACT THAT HE NEITHER IS BAPTIZED,NOR FORM PART OF AN ORGANISED CHURCH!

    JOHN DECLARED THIS:

    33 HE IT IS THAT BAPTIZETH WITH THE HOLY GHOST.

    SO AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL JESUS’SPIRIT, THE WORD BAPTISES WITH THE HOLY GHOST!

    OBVIOUSLY, SINCE HE FIRST WAS USED AS A MEDIATOR SPIRIT IN CREATION, THE WORD AND THAN AS THE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD  AND MAN THROUGH REDEMPTION! THE WORD MADE FLESH

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #375432
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Mar. 30 2014,06:35][/quote]

    Quote
    Don't confuse “CHOICE” with “NEED”

    Mike,

    GOD NEEDED A MEDIATOR! THE WORD

    NOT CHOOSES TO HAVE A MEDIATOR!

    GOD WAS IN NEED OF A SPIRIT WHICH COULD BE BETWEEN EVIL CREATURES AND HIM IN ORDER FOR GOD TO MAINTAIN ETERNAL LIFE! IN THEM TILL THEY ARE BACK TO THE FATHER!

    SO YES

    GOD WAS IN NEED OF A MEDIATOR BOTH AS A SPIRIT USED IN CREATION AND AS MAN TO REDEEM CREATION

    BUT AS I SAID A MEDIATOR IS NOT OF ONE BUT GOD IS ONE THAT SAME MEDIATOR,

    HIS SON'S SPIRIT, THE WORD, IN CREATION, AND JESUS CHRIST, THE WORD MADE FLESH IN REDEMPTION!

    SO THAT'S THE ONLY REASON THAT GOD NEVER NEED ANY BODY! BECAUSE HE IS

    OMNIPOTENCE, OMNIPRESENCE, OMNISCIENCE, AND OMNIBENEVOLENCE!

    SO HE CAN BE IN HIMSELF! IN A SPIRIT OF HIS OWN SELF!

    THE WORD

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #375433
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=Wakeup,Mar. 29 2014,19:38][/quote]

    Quote
    The will of God is that all in him should be one,

    Wakeup,

    BUT YOU SAID:

    They are born by the will of God.

    WHERE IN SCRIPTURE IT SAYS THAT THEY ARE BORN BY THE WILL OF GOD?

    Peace and loive in Jesus

    Charles

    #375435
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Mar. 30 2014,08:13)
    [quote=Wakeup,Mar. 29 2014,19:38][/quote]

    Quote
    The will of God is that all in him should be one,

    Wakeup,

    BUT YOU SAID:

    They are born by the will of God.

    WHERE IN SCRIPTURE IT SAYS THAT THEY ARE BORN BY THE WILL OF GOD?

    Peace and loive in Jesus

    Charles


    Carmel.

    Speaking of the resurrection.
    They are born of God's woman,she is spirit.
    Her children will also be spirit children.
    The resurrection is of God.

    Born again by the will of God.

    wakeup.

    #375440
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Mar. 29 2014,14:55)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 30 2014,06:35)
    Don't confuse “CHOICE” with “NEED”

    Mike,

    GOD NEEDED A MEDIATOR! THE WORD

    NOT CHOOSES TO HAVE A MEDIATOR!


    No Charles,

    God is capable of speaking directly to his human creations. He did just that with Moses, Aaron, and the Israelites who were gathered around Mount Horeb.

    #375458
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Mar. 29 2014,22:59)

    Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 30 2014,01:21)
    Wakeup,

    There is only one passage in Scripture that literally speaks of baptism with the holy spirit that is nowhere in the book of Acts.  That means you are claiming that a person who exhibits the gift of the Spirit has been immersed in the spirit.  I know of no evidence that supports that claim and plenty of evidence that opposes that claim.  The 70 elders and King Saul exhibited the gift and yet they were under the old covenant and not the new.  The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a gift of the new covenant and not the old.


    Kerwin.

    You are speaking of the baptism of the HS.
    All must go through Christ.
    The jews of old dont have that chance.
    They also must go through Christ.That will happen in the kingdom.

    If one has the HS he can understand the written word.
    Because their eyes are opened.

    Some partly,some more,some all.Depending on the hunger in them.
    Water can not do that.

    wakeup.


    WU,

    Scripture states:

    Hebrews 11:40
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

    It sounds like the believers of this age are their proxies.

    But my point is that the people of the old covenant received the gifts of tongues and prophecy and yet could not have been baptized in the Holy Spirit because Jesus was not yet baptizing anyone in the Holy Spirit.  In short the gifts are a sign of God's approval but not a sign that a person has been immersed in the Holy Spirit.  What Jesus tells us is we will know them by their fruits, and it is written those who live by the Spirit bear its fruits.

    #375468
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi KW,
    The Holy Spirit brings gifts.
    The Spirit of Christ manifested in the Prophets who were judged as clean by God.
    None received the Spirit of Christ under the new covenant till he returned to God and the Spirit was shared.

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