John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 15,381 through 15,400 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #368660
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 28 2014,12:08)
    Wakeup,

    Last week you were applauding every word that came out of Charles' mouth.

    Not so much these days, huh?  :cool:


    Mikeb.

    I must agree when he speaks right.
    I must corrrect; if He speaks wrong.
    Vise versa.
    I dont have favourites.
    If j42. speaks wrong;I will correct her too.
    If I speak wrong I will correct myself also.
    I will announce my mistakes.

    wakeup.

    #368661
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 28 2014,09:20)

    Quote (carmel @ Jan. 27 2014,10:54)
    Wakeup,

    these  ARE your words:

    Quote
    FOR GOD HAD TO GIVE JOHN THE SIGN OF A DOVE TO IDENTIFY JESUS,THE TRUE MESSIAH.

    AND I PROVED TO YOU THAT JOHN RECOGNIZED JESUS, AS THE SON OF GOD BEFORE THE DOVE WENT ON JESUS!

    SINCE HE SAID TO JESUS THAT JESUS OUGHT TO BAPTISE HIM RATHER! SO THEY KNEW EACH OTHER!


    This is a tough one, guys.  Because even when John was imprisoned, he was still sending his own disciples to Jesus to ask if he was the Messiah who was to come.

    I get the feeling that the Spirit showed John certain things, but sometimes he felt like maybe that Spirit was just his mind playing tricks on him, and so he sought the truth of the matter by human means.

    There are quite a few other scriptural examples of the same thing.  Many people asked for visible and physical signs so they could know for sure that the Spirit or angel was from God………. and for real.

    I would most likely be the same way if a voice just started talking to me in my mind, and telling me things.  I would want some kind of sign that it was for real, and that I wasn't just going crazy.  And I would want a sign that it was indeed from God, and not Satan playing tricks to trip me up.

    Anyway, that's my two cents on the matter.  Carry on………..


    Mikeb.

    I agree with you here.

    Dont always cosnider voices or dreams as automatically from God.
    Even angel apparitions.
    Look what happened to mohamad.
    That was the angel of darkness appearing as light.
    That was the reason Jesus had to appear to the apostles
    in the flesh,so they can feel and touch him.

    wakeup.

    #368683
    jammin
    Participant

    kerwin,

    no commentary will agree to you and even bible version.

    you have to publish your own king kerwin version so that you will have proof of your false doctrine

    #368685
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Jan. 28 2014,19:55)
    kerwin,

    no commentary will agree to you and even bible version.

    you have to publish your own king kerwin version so that you will have proof of your false doctrine


    Jammin,

    There are plenty that agree with me. I am certain you will disagree with them as well. John 1:1 is controversial because it requires context to be interpreted correctly and the needed context is not available in John 1:1-14. The commentators I have heard interpret it according to their chosen doctrine.

    #368697
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Jan. 27 2014,02:02][/quote]

    Quote
    And now you've lost me again.  This is why I don't usually get involved with you in scriptural discussions – because your ideas come from outside of the scriptures.

    Mike,

    I agree, there are no detailed word to word that we came from an original spirits which rebelled!

    But in scripture there are STATEMENTS which through reflection, and also through light from the Holy Spirit we could discover  many conclusions!

    For instant reflect a bit on this scripture hereunder!

    Genesis 6:For after the sons of God ( ANGELS)went in to the daughters of men and they brought forth children, these are the mighty men of old, men of renown.

    THE ANGELS TO HAD INTERCOURSE WITH HUMANS, THEY DEFINITELY DESIRED TO DO SO, AND THROUGH THAT DESIRE, THEY SINNED, AND THROUGH SIN THEY BECAME HUMANS!

    NOW SINCE THESE ANGEL BECAME HUMANS THROUGH SIN, IT STANDS TO REASON THAT WE ARE HUMANS BECAUSE AT ONE STAGE WE WERE ALSO ANGELS AND SINNED!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #368702
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 27 2014,22:28)
    If I speak wrong I will correct myself also.
    I will announce my mistakes.


    YOU will correct YOURSELF?

    Has anyone else ever been able to correct you? Or are you the only one who can correct you?

    #368704
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 29 2014,09:55)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 27 2014,22:28)
    If I speak wrong I will correct myself also.
    I will announce my mistakes.


    YOU will correct YOURSELF?  

    Has anyone else ever been able to correct you?  Or are you the only one who can correct you?


    Mike b.

    If you can come up with a scripture or scriptures, that
    can contradict me.I will automatically agree.
    And correct myself. What is the point in teaching lies?
    What is the reward?

    wakeup.

    #368705
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Corrections has to be based on scriptures.
    Not PO.

    wakeup.

    #368707
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Jan. 28 2014,14:34)
    THE ANGELS TO HAD INTERCOURSE WITH HUMANS, THEY DEFINITELY DESIRED TO DO SO, AND THROUGH THAT DESIRE, THEY SINNED, AND THROUGH SIN THEY BECAME HUMANS!

    NOW SINCE THESE ANGEL BECAME HUMANS THROUGH SIN, IT STANDS TO REASON THAT WE ARE HUMANS BECAUSE AT ONE STAGE WE WERE ALSO ANGELS AND SINNED!


    The angels themselves didn't become humans, Charles.  Their offspring ended up being human/angel hybrids.

    Do you ever look at nature and think about all the wonderful shapes, sizes, colors, smells, tastes, etc?

    God didn't have to make our world so awe-inspiring for us.  A human being can live an entire lifetime locked in a 8×8 concrete block room.  So God didn't make our world so beautiful and awe-inspiring because we NEEDED it to be that way for us to survive.  He did it for our joy and entertainment.

    What if the entire earth, humans and all, were made for the joy and entertainment of God and His spirit sons?

    You act as if being a human being is a punishment, and that we must have sinned at one point to receive this terrible existence.

    But God took great joy in creating our species.  He made Adam wonderfully, and He saw that it was good.

    Imagine watching a couple of cute puppies playing around. And you think to yourself, “They are so freakin' ADORABLE!”

    Perhaps observing us makes God and His angels feel the same way observing children, puppies, and kittens make us feel.

    Have you ever had a 3 or 4 year old child put on a talent show for you? They're banging on the piano, singing a song they made up, and dancing around like they think they're John Travolta in Saturday Night Fever.

    How can you not take sheer joy from that experience? I believe God and His spirit sons also experience joy like that from watching us sing, dance, act silly, laugh, love, etc.

    God created us for His own pleasure. He loves us, and I'm sure He gets much joy from watching our sometimes hilarious antics.

    We are a wonderful species, created by a magnificent Creator.

    #368708
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 28 2014,17:03)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 29 2014,09:55)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 27 2014,22:28)
    If I speak wrong I will correct myself also.
    I will announce my mistakes.


    YOU will correct YOURSELF?  

    Has anyone else ever been able to correct you?  Or are you the only one who can correct you?


    Mike b.

    If you can come up with a scripture or scriptures, that
    can contradict me.I will automatically agree.


    :)

    #368738
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 29 2014,10:25)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 28 2014,17:03)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 29 2014,09:55)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 27 2014,22:28)
    If I speak wrong I will correct myself also.
    I will announce my mistakes.


    YOU will correct YOURSELF?  

    Has anyone else ever been able to correct you?  Or are you the only one who can correct you?


    Mike b.

    If you can come up with a scripture or scriptures, that
    can contradict me.I will automatically agree.


    :)


    Mikeb.

    The fallen angels must have materialised to
    have sex with the women,and produced seed.

    wakeup.

    #368752
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 29 2014,01:35)

    Quote (jammin @ Jan. 28 2014,19:55)
    kerwin,

    no commentary will agree to you and even bible version.

    you have to publish your own king kerwin version so that you will have proof of your false doctrine


    Jammin,

    There are plenty that agree with me.  I am certain you will disagree with them as well.  John 1:1 is controversial because it requires context to be interpreted correctly and the needed context is not available in John 1:1-14.  The commentators I have heard interpret it according to their chosen doctrine.


    really? who are those people that agree to you? those false teachers? im not surprised

    #368783
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 29 2014,03:50)
    Mikeb.

    The fallen angels must have materialised to
    have sex with the women,and produced seed.

    wakeup.


    You mean like God materialized to cause a human woman to give birth from His seed? :)

    Wakeup, the biggest thing you have against your “materialized bodies” theory is Balaam and the donkey. In that scenario, the angel would have had to materialize TWO different times – once in a way only the donkey could see him, and a second time in a way that both the donkey and Balaam could see him.

    The way I understand it, the bodies of angels are not “immaterial” at all. But they are such that God can either allow the eyes of mankind to see them, or not.

    There are many scriptures that lead me to my conclusion. We can discuss it if you like.

    #368792
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 30 2014,10:31)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 29 2014,03:50)
    Mikeb.

    The fallen angels must have materialised to
    have sex with the women,and produced seed.

    wakeup.


    You mean like God materialized to cause a human woman to give birth from His seed?  :)

    Wakeup, the biggest thing you have against your “materialized bodies” theory is Balaam and the donkey.  In that scenario, the angel would have had to materialize TWO different times – once in a way only the donkey could see him, and a second time in a way that both the donkey and Balaam could see him.

    The way I understand it, the bodies of angels are not “immaterial” at all.  But they are such that God can either allow the eyes of mankind to see them, or not.

    There are many scriptures that lead me to my conclusion.  We can discuss it if you like.


    Mikeb.

    Genesis 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and
    ***they took them wives*** of all which they chose.

    Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God
    ***came in unto***
    the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

    Came into=sex.
    Those angels produced sperm to make babies.

    wakeup.

    #368793
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    What kind of sperm, Wakeup? Human sperm?

    #368796
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 30 2014,11:21)
    What kind of sperm, Wakeup?  Human sperm?


    Mikeb.

    What sperm?
    Must be something like flesh sperm.
    Their children are not normal,but giants.
    They are hybrids, of flesh and blood, and bone.

    Angels can materialise as many have,for a time period.
    They also met Abraham,and Lot.

    wakeup.

    #368807
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Jan. 29 2014,22:43)

    Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 29 2014,01:35)

    Quote (jammin @ Jan. 28 2014,19:55)
    kerwin,

    no commentary will agree to you and even bible version.

    you have to publish your own king kerwin version so that you will have proof of your false doctrine


    Jammin,

    There are plenty that agree with me.  I am certain you will disagree with them as well.  John 1:1 is controversial because it requires context to be interpreted correctly and the needed context is not available in John 1:1-14.  The commentators I have heard interpret it according to their chosen doctrine.


    really? who are those people that agree to you? those false teachers? im not surprised


    Jammin,

    You very words prove what I said.  You go looking for those who tell your itching ears what they want to hear.  You asked a question to begin this thread but your ears are stopped so as to not hear anything that might upset your beliefs.

    Note: corrected spelling.

    #368847
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=mikeboll64,Jan. 28 2014,09:20][/quote]

    Quote
    This is a tough one, guys.  Because even when John was imprisoned, he was still sending his own disciples to Jesus to ask if he was the Messiah who was to come.

    I get the feeling that the Spirit showed John certain things, but sometimes he felt like maybe that Spirit was just his mind playing tricks on him, and so he sought the truth of the matter by human means.

    Mike, Wakeup,

    YES MIKE!

    AND THIS IS A TOUGH ANSWER POST!

    FIRST!That's your worldly wisdom, which for God is FOOLISHNESS!

    I from the other hand consider it CHILDISH WITH EVERY RESPECT!

    NOW READ AND REALIZE HOW, BOTH OF YOU ARE COMPLETELY IN THE DARK BY YOUR CORRUPTED CARNAL UNDERSTANDING! AGAIN WITH EVERY RESPECT!

    Angel Gabriel, Made sure BOTH who Jesus was , and John was!

    So both families, and God knows how many, since scriptures made us aware very little of them, KNEW ALL ABOUT JOHN AND JESUS' TASK, BUT KEPT IT PURPOSELY HIDDEN OBVIOUS!

    NOW READ:

    LUKE 2:41……………And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. 45And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord.

    BY ANALYSING THE ABOVE, IT IS QUITE EVIDENT THAT THEY KNEW  QUITE WELL WHOM THEIR CHILDREN WERE! AND ALSO WHAT THEIR MISSION WAS!

    NOW MARY AT THE AGE OF 13 YEARS WALKED ALL BY HERSELF FROM NAZARETH TO ELIZABETH IN JUDAH, SO DO YOU WANT ME TO BELIEVE THAT THEY NEVER ORGANIZED A FAMILY FUNCTION, OR THAT THEY  NEVER ORGANIZED  TO MEET WHEN BOTH OF THEM WENT  EVERY YEAR TO GERUSALEM FOR THE PASCH?

    LOGICALLY SPEAKING, AT THE AGE OF 12, SINCE JESUS KNEW THAT HE HAD TO DO HIS FATHER’S WORK,JOHN LIKEWISE KNEW HIS, NO DOUBT SINCE HE HAD TO PREPARE BOTH JESUS’ PEOPLE, AND TO ACCOMPLISH  HIS UNIQUE MISSION, WHICH AS JESUS HIMSELF CONFIRMED   THEY, JESUS AND JOHN MUST ESTABLISH THROUGHOUT JUSTICE, WHICH MEANS THAT JESUS DELIVERED SATAN’S SPIRIT WITHIN HIM, ONLY FOR JOHN, OR MORE APPROPRIATE, THE SPIRIT OF MICHAEL WITHIN JOHN’S SOUL AS A HUMAN BEING, TO REMOVE HIM THROUGH BAPTISM, AND LOCK HIM IN HELL TILL JESUS ACCOMPLISHED HIS WORK, WHICH FROM THAT MOMENT IN TIME ON JESUS OFFICIALLY BECAME THE ABSOLUTE RULER OF BOTH HEAVEN AND EARTH  FOR ETERNITY! WHICH HE DEMONSTRATED WHEN HE CONTROLLED NATURE AND STOPPED HEAVENLY STORMS AND WALKED OVER EARTHLY WATERS!   GENESIS 1:2

    SO BY THE TIME  THEY GREW UP TO COMMENCE THEIR MISSION,THEY THEMSELVES PLANNED IT ALL ACCORDINGLY, OF WHICH ONE VITAL TASK WAS TO TAKE OPPOSITE POSITION IN  SOCIETY, TO MISGUIDE SATAN ,THIS IS CONFIRMED BY THE ACTUAL RELATED EVENTS IN SCRIPTURES, AND ALSO FROM BOTH JESUS, AND JOHN’S OWN WORDS!

    NOW THERE ARE EVEN MORE EVIDENCE REGARDING JESUS/JOHN PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP BOTH AS COUSINS AND IN GOD'S WORK,BUT THE ABOVE IS MORE JUSTIFIED THEN THAT MISGUIDED STATEMENT BY JOHN: I KNEW HIM NOT!

    SO I LEAVE IT TO YOU TO CONTRADICT ME THROUGH SCRIPTURES AND GIVE MORE CLEAR EVIDENCE THAT THEY NEVER KNEW EACH OTHER GO AHEAD SHOW ME! I HAVE MORE TO CANCEL OUT ALL WHATEVER YOU FEEL IS THE RIGHT ALIBI REGARDING THIS I KNEW HIM NOT BY JOHN!

    SO WHEN JOHN SAID TO JESUS THAT HE OUGHT TO BE BAPTISE BY HIM, THEREFORE CONFIRMED THAT FROM THE AGE OF UNDERSTANDING, HE KNEW JESUS PERSONALLY THROUGHOUT ON EARTH, BUT NOT BEFORE, THEREFORE WITH REGARDS TO HIS DEITY IN HEAVEN.

    NEVER MIND WHEN THE DOVE LANDED ON JESUS!

    THE DOVE WAS VITAL FOR THE PEOPLE TO BELIEVE JOHN'S STATEMENT, AND WHO JESUS WAS!

    SO MIKE, NOW TO THE OTHER CHILDISH OPINION WHICH YOU STATED, AND WHICH I’M SURE IT COULD NEVER BE SO !

    JOHN SENT HIS PEOPLE TO JESUS FIRST TO ALLOW JESUS HIMSELF TO CONFIRM THROUGH HIS OWN MOUTH WHOM HE WAS IN HIS UNIQUE MASTERY WAY WHICH HE DID PERFERCFTLY, FIRST IN A WAY TO KEEP IT ALSO HIDDEN FROM AND CONFUSE MORE SATAN, AND SECOND, IN THE SAME TIME HE PRAISED AND CONFIRMED WHO JOHN WAS!THEN TO EMPHASISE EVEN MORE THAT HE  WAS THE MESSIAH HE DECLARED WITH THAT ODD STATEMENT THAT JOHN WAS MORE PERFECT THEN HIM WHEN HE WAS BORN IN FLESH AND BLOOD, AND ALSO THAT HE, JOHN,WAS LESS THEN THE LEAST ONE IN GOD’S KINGDOM, OBVIOUS AGAIN JESUS IN FLESH AND BLOOD,  AS SON OF MAN!!!!

    THIS HE DID ALSO TO CONFIRM THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HIM, THE CREATOR AND JOHN THE CREATURE , WHICH BOTH OF YOU MIKE, AND WAKEUP ARE STILL BLIND TO BE AWARE OF!

    FROM THE OTHER HAND,YES SATAN WITH THAT STATEMENT BELIEVED THAT JOHN WAS THE MESSIAH AND KILLED HIM! AND JESUS THE ANTICHRIST! THE SON OF PERDITION!

    THE OTHER VITAL IMPORTANT REASON THAT JOHN SENT HIS DISCIPLES, WAS THAT HE WANTED TO MAKE SURE THAT HIS OWN DISCIPLES WOULD NEVER ABANDON, OR OPPOSE IN A WAY JESUS, SINCE JOHN WAS, CONSIDERED BY MANY AS THE MESSIAH, NOTWITHSTANDING THE FACT THAT HE MADE IT CLEAR THAT HE WASN'T!

    AGAIN TO MAKE US AWARE THAT SATAN WAS BLINDFOLDED, OR SCEPTICAL WHO THE MESSIAH REALLY WAS THROUGH THE WHOLE WORK BY JOHN AND JESUS, WHOEVER HAVE EARS LET HIM HEAR!

    Luke 8:18 Take heed therefore how you hear. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given: and WHOSOEVER HATH NOT,THAT ALSO WHICH HE THINKETH HE HATH, SHALL BE TAKEN AWAY FROM HIM.

    NOW WAKEUP, I ASKED YOU A COMPOUND QUESTION BUT SOMEHOW YOU WERE NOT IN THE POSITION TO ANSWER AND IT IS HERE AGAIN IN CASE YOU DIDN’T READ AS FAR IN MY POST!

    BUT THIS TIME I AM ALSO ASKING YOU MIKE SO GIVE A HAND WITH YOUR WORLDY WISDOM! THE FOOLISHNESS OF GOD!

    WHY AND IN WHAT WAS JOHN MORE PERFECT THEN JESUS! IN HIS MOTHER’S WOMB!

    WAS HE REFERRING TO THE PHYSICAL STATE?

    TO THE SPIRIT STATE?

    OR BOTH?

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #368851
    terraricca
    Participant

    I have ask that question about John my self long ago but i understood it in this way ;

    see John the baptist was put in prison and for that reason he could not see himself that actually Jesus was the Christ that as to come ,
    even though John received information that upon the one the holy spirit will remain in the form of a dove will be the one ,HE MAY ALSO KNOWN FROM SCRIPTURES THAT THE Messiah WILL COME AND DO MIRACLES IN THE NAME OF GOD TO CONFIRM THAT HE HIS WHO HE SAYS HE HIS ,SO FROM NOW IN PRISON GOES OUT THE QUESTION OF JOHN SO THAT HE MAY KNOW THAT THE ONE HE BAPTIZED HIS THE REAL MESSIAH AS FORETOLD IN THE SCRIPTURES ,

    THIS IS MY UNDERSTANDING

    #368857
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 29 2014,18:54)
    Angels can materialise as many have,for a time period.


    So tell me what happened in the case of Balaam and the donkey. Did the angel materialize two different times, in two different ways?

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