John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 14,861 through 14,880 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #362777
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Jammin………..IF we read a tritarians explanation of John 1 :1, of course he will try to make the Word be the Person Jesus, what do you expect him to say seeing he is biased in his theology, just as you are. You have been indoctrinated, and will always defend the trinitarians position, that is what 95% of Christianity does, they are all under the same delusions as you are, and twist the texts to say what in fact they do not “SPECIFICALLY” say. Do you really think John was so stupid, that if he meant to say, Jesus was Himself the word, that he would not have just simply written the Name Jesus there? Do you think John was that ignorant to write something that would cause so much confusion in what he was trying to say, a Word is simply a word and belongs to who ever spoke them , unless they are quoting some one a Jesus said he was, the “WORDS” I am telling you are not “MINE”, but the words of Him that sent me. So if Jesus was truly the Word himself then he must have been lying when he said the word were not His right?. Jesus is not God no matter how hard you false teachers try to make him be. If he is God he sure never said he was in any scripture i have ever read.

    As far as saying i am not a Scholar, that means nothing, with regards to understanding God's word most so-called scholars disagree with each other also. Running out a grabbing a bunch of trinitarian scholars and saying see they believe in the trinity, so it must be true is pure garbage. That is like saying i have all these false teachers on my side so therefore I am right. That is what you are doing your just going along with these false teachers, and holding on to what you were taught by them. When you have to apply other thought to scripture then what is actually written, and make it say what it simply does not say, you are forcing the text, but you are not alone most trinitarian and preexistence's do the same .IMO

    peace and love to you and yours……………………………………….gene

    #362778
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 28 2013,12:49)
    the apostles said that JEsus is God. john 20.28
    phil 2.6


    Jammin………No apostle said Jesus was a GOD, God The Father was “IN” him, Just as Jesus said over and over, But that in no way made Jesus himself the God that was “IN” Him, and if you believe Jesus you would have us believe, and what he said about GOD, for thou art the “ONLY” “TRUE” GOD so why lie, do you believe what Jesus said or NOT?. and while you are at it, Here is another one for you to twist, 1 Cor 8:4, we know that there is no Idols in the world, and that there is “NO” God but “ONE”. .

    Now work with those scriptures and see how you can reconcile them with you false beliefs, I can give you many many more even what God himself said about other Gods, but go ask your trinitarian scholars how they reconcile them, maybe your, Daniel B. Wallace, has an answer for you , I highly doubt it.  IMO

    peace and love to you and yours………………….gene

    #362784
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 28 2013,19:19)
    kerwin,

    heb 11.3 and john 1.1 are not the same.

    if you check the commentary of AKJV it will tell you that the Word in john 1.1 is Christ himself.
    you are using the version that does not agree to you. LOL


    Jammin,

    I see you are still placing your faith in mere men with your use of the word “commentary”.   We are to test the spirit of such teachings not use them for support.  Why do you agree or disagree with this commentary from an AKJV printing or with the words of this Daniel Wallace except they tell you what your itching ears want to know.

    Note: correct the spelling of men from me to men.

    #362855
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 28 2013,01:35)
    [/quote]
    [quote=Gene Balthrop,Nov. 28 2013,01:35]


    Quote
    don't you remember were he said i am going to “MY” God and “YOUR” God , MY Father and YOUR Father, Jesus is no God Boy.

    GENE,

    READ THE SCRIPTURE:

    John 20:17 Jesus saith to her: Do not touch me, for I am not yet ascended to my Father. But go to my brethren, and say to them: I ascend to my Father and to your Father, to my God and your God.

    Now the  word ASCEND has nothing to do with JESUS GOES TO HIS FATHER, AND TO HIS GOD

    The word ascend always has a meaning TO GO UP! NOT JUST GO! And  to go up it also has various meanings!

    ALSO IN CONJUNCTION WITH THE PREPOSITION TO WHICH IN RESPECT OF THE GREEK COULD MEAN IN VIEW OF AND :INTERFACE WITH;

    ASCEND TO, WOULD MAKE THAT VERSE TO BE INTERPRETED THE OPPOSITE WAY YOU ARE CONVINCED OF!

    THEREFORE JESUS IS GOD!

    NOW WITH EVERY RESPECT READ AND DISCERN!

    • ASCEND (verb)
     The verb ASCEND has 6 senses:
    1. travel up,
    2. go back in order of genealogical succession
    3. become king or queen
    4. go along towards (a river's) source
    5. slope upwards
    6. come up, of celestial bodies

    SO AS YOU CAN READ,THE WORD ASCEND DOESN'T MEAN TO GO TO  MY FATHER,BUT :

    TO GO UP, TO RISE TO A HIGHER STATE, LEVEL, DEGREE, ETC.

    AND WITH THE PREPOSITION TO WHICH IN THIS CASE MEANS: IN VIEW OF!

    OR  INTERFACE WITH

    IT WOULD MAKE THAT VERSE COMPLETELY MEAN THE OPPOSITE

    NOW:

    IF JOHN WANTED TO MEAN THAT JESUS MEANT THAT HE GOES TO HIS FATHER,   HE WOULD HAVE USED THE SAME WORD IN JOHN 16:10  :And of justice: because I GO TO THE FATHER; and you shall see me no longer.

    WHICH IS:

    5217. hupagó: to lead or bring under, to lead on slowly, to depart

    Short Definition: I go away, depart
    Definition: I go away, depart, begone, die.

    OR THE SAME WORD IN JOHN 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I GO UNTO MY FATHER

    WHICH IS 4198 POREUOMAI

    4198. poreuomai TO GO

    Short Definition: I travel, journey, go
    Definition: I travel, journey, go, die.

    NOW IN 14:28  HE USED BOTH WORDS:

    FIRST 5217. hupagó, AND THEN 4198 POREUOMAI

    JOHN 14:28 You have heard how I said unto you, I GO AWAY,and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I GO UNTO MY FATHER: for my Father is greater than I.

    BUT JOHN INSTEAD USED THE WORD ASCEND

    WHICH IS:

    305 anabainó: to go up, ascend

    Short Definition: I go up, mount, ascend
    Definition: I go up, mount, ascend; of things: I rise, spring up, come up.

    Now read and be aware regarding the preposition

    TO: 4314 prós (a preposition) – properly, motion towards to “INTERFACE WITH” (literally, moving toward a goal or destination). IN JOHN’S CASE JESUS WAS STILL MOVING TOWARDS HIS GLORIFICATION, TO BECOME GOD IN THE POWER OF THE FATHER,BUT ONLY AS SOON AS THE HOLY SPIRIT, WHO WAS STILL IN HELL PREACHING THE GOSPEL, UNITES AND BECOME ONE WITH JESUS’ UNIQUE  FLESH BODY AND BECOME THE ONLY TRUE  GOD IN SPIRITUAL FLESH BODY!

    Word study:

    TO: 4314 (prós) can mean “IN VIEW OF ”  OBVIOUS AGAIN THAT JESUS, WHO WAS STILL IN HIS OWN GLORY AS MAN IN FLESH BODY, WAS REFERRING TO HIS EVENTUAL GLORIFICATION WITH HIS FATHER……

    SO JOHN WITH   ASCEND TO MEANT : TO RISE UP IN THE GLORY OF MY FATHER !

    NOW IN VIEW OF THE ABOVE LETS READ AGAIN THAT VERSE!

    John 20:17 Jesus saith to her: Do not touch me, OBVIOUS, SHE WAS A MORTAL PERSON, AND BY TOUCHING JESUS, WHO WAS IN HIS OPTIMUM PERFECTION, LACKED THE FATHER’S POWER TO PROTECT MAGDALENE FROM DYING , AND SAID TO HER,for I am not yet IN THE GLORY OF MY  Father. But go to my brethren, and say to them: I  BE IN THE GLORY OF my Father and your Father, IN THE GLORY OF my God and your God. THEREFORE THERE WON’T BE ANY DANGER AT ALL TOUCHING HIM!

    THEN IF YOU CARRY ON READING, FEW HOURS LATER JESUS GLORIFIED AS OUR FATHER AND OUR GOD,  ENTERED THROUGH STONE WALLS, AND SAT IN THE MIDST OF HIS DISCIPLES INGNORING COMPLETELY THE FACT THAT THEY COULD  DEFINITELY NOT JUST TOUCH HIM BUT JUMP ON HIM WITH JOY!

    SO  NO DOUBT!

    JESUS WAS REALLY IN THE TRUTH THE ONLY TRUE VISIBLE GODMAN IN FLESH AND BONES WHO WALKED ON EARTH!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #362861
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 29 2013,02:16)

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 28 2013,12:49)
    the apostles said that JEsus is God. john 20.28
    phil 2.6


    Jammin………No apostle said Jesus was a GOD, God The Father was “IN” him, Just as Jesus said over and over, But that in no way made Jesus himself the God that was “IN” Him, and if you believe Jesus you would have us believe, and what he said about GOD, for thou art the “ONLY” “TRUE” GOD so why lie, do you believe what Jesus said or NOT?. and while you are at it, Here is another one for you to twist, 1 Cor 8:4, we know that there is no Idols in the world, and that there is “NO” God but “ONE”. .

    Now work with those scriptures and see how you can reconcile them with you false beliefs, I can give you many many more even what God himself said about other Gods, but go ask your trinitarian scholars how they reconcile them, maybe your, Daniel B. Wallace, has an answer for you , I highly doubt it.  IMO

    peace and love to you and yours………………….gene


    are you sure??
    you said no apostle said that JESUS WAS GOD

    let me post the verse.

    Philippians 2:6

    New Living Translation (NLT)

    6 Though he was God,
       he did not think of equality with God
       as something to cling to.

    the bible clearly tells us that JESUS WAS GOD!
    the commentary also supports my view

    Geneva Study Bible
    Who, being in the {d} form of God, {e} thought it not robbery to be {f} equal with God:

    (d) Such as God himself is, and therefore God, for there is no one in all parts equal to God but God himself.

    (e) Christ, that glorious and everlasting God, knew that he might rightfully and lawfully not appear in the base flesh of man, but remain with majesty fit for God: yet he chose rather to debase himself.

    (f) If the Son is equal with the Father, then is there of necessity an equality, which Arrius that heretic denies: and if the Son is compared to the Father, then is there a distinction of persons, which Sabellius that heretic denies.

    i think you really dont know the content of the bible.
    you should make your own bible LOL

    #362862
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 29 2013,04:12)

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 28 2013,19:19)
    kerwin,

    heb 11.3 and john 1.1 are not the same.

    if you check the commentary of AKJV it will tell you that the Word in john 1.1 is Christ himself.
    you are using the version that does not agree to you. LOL


    Jammin,

    I see you are still placing your faith in mere me with your use of the word “commentary”.   We are to test the spirit of such teachings not use them for support.  Why do you agree or disagree with this commentary from an AKJV printing or with the words of this Daniel Wallace except they tell you what your itching ears want to know.


    im just saying the truth. i say what is written. you say what is NOT written.

    btw i still have questions for you boy? dont you want to answer my question? or you may say that you are afraid of the truth.

    what did the ancient laws say?

    1. the image of GOD is his word?

    2. the image of GOD is the Word?

    #362863
    jammin
    Participant

    kerwin,

    because daniel and akjv know the true meaning of john 1.1 and i also read my bible over and over and we have the same teachings.
    the WORD is christ himself and that is why many versions give us the capital W for the word Word to give emphasis and to tell that this Word is no ordinary word but a title of Christ.
    see rev 19.13

    how about you??? you said the meaning of john 1.1 is GOD is like his word.
    where can you read that in john 1.1?| can you give version to support your imagination??? and yet you want people to believe you. you cant even defend your case. think about it boy.

    #362869
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Nov. 30 2013,18:00)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 28 2013,01:35)
    [/quote]
    [quote=Gene Balthrop,Nov. 28 2013,01:35]


    Quote
    don't you remember were he said i am going to “MY” God and “YOUR” God , MY Father and YOUR Father, Jesus is no God Boy.

    GENE,

    READ THE SCRIPTURE:

    John 20:17 Jesus saith to her: Do not touch me, for I am not yet ascended to my Father. But go to my brethren, and say to them: I ascend to my Father and to your Father, to my God and your God.

    Now the  word ASCEND has nothing to do with JESUS GOES TO HIS FATHER, AND TO HIS GOD

    The word ascend always has a meaning TO GO UP! NOT JUST GO! And  to go up it also has various meanings!

    ALSO IN CONJUNCTION WITH THE PREPOSITION TO WHICH IN RESPECT OF THE GREEK COULD MEAN IN VIEW OF AND :INTERFACE WITH;

    ASCEND TO, WOULD MAKE THAT VERSE TO BE INTERPRETED THE OPPOSITE WAY YOU ARE CONVINCED OF!

    THEREFORE JESUS IS GOD!

    NOW WITH EVERY RESPECT READ AND DISCERN!

    • ASCEND (verb)
     The verb ASCEND has 6 senses:
    1. travel up,
    2. go back in order of genealogical succession
    3. become king or queen
    4. go along towards (a river's) source
    5. slope upwards
    6. come up, of celestial bodies

    SO AS YOU CAN READ,THE WORD ASCEND DOESN'T MEAN TO GO TO  MY FATHER,BUT :

    TO GO UP, TO RISE TO A HIGHER STATE, LEVEL, DEGREE, ETC.

    AND WITH THE PREPOSITION TO WHICH IN THIS CASE MEANS: IN VIEW OF!

    OR  INTERFACE WITH

    IT WOULD MAKE THAT VERSE COMPLETELY MEAN THE OPPOSITE

    NOW:

    IF JOHN WANTED TO MEAN THAT JESUS MEANT THAT HE GOES TO HIS FATHER,   HE WOULD HAVE USED THE SAME WORD IN JOHN 16:10  :And of justice: because I GO TO THE FATHER; and you shall see me no longer.

    WHICH IS:

    5217. hupagó: to lead or bring under, to lead on slowly, to depart

    Short Definition: I go away, depart
    Definition: I go away, depart, begone, die.

    OR THE SAME WORD IN JOHN 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I GO UNTO MY FATHER

    WHICH IS 4198 POREUOMAI

    4198. poreuomai TO GO

    Short Definition: I travel, journey, go
    Definition: I travel, journey, go, die.

    NOW IN 14:28  HE USED BOTH WORDS:

    FIRST 5217. hupagó, AND THEN 4198 POREUOMAI

    JOHN 14:28 You have heard how I said unto you, I GO AWAY,and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I GO UNTO MY FATHER: for my Father is greater than I.

    BUT JOHN INSTEAD USED THE WORD ASCEND

    WHICH IS:

    305 anabainó: to go up, ascend

    Short Definition: I go up, mount, ascend
    Definition: I go up, mount, ascend; of things: I rise, spring up, come up.

    Now read and be aware regarding the preposition

    TO: 4314 prós (a preposition) – properly, motion towards to “INTERFACE WITH” (literally, moving toward a goal or destination). IN JOHN’S CASE JESUS WAS STILL MOVING TOWARDS HIS GLORIFICATION, TO BECOME GOD IN THE POWER OF THE FATHER,BUT ONLY AS SOON AS THE HOLY SPIRIT, WHO WAS STILL IN HELL PREACHING THE GOSPEL, UNITES AND BECOME ONE WITH JESUS’ UNIQUE  FLESH BODY AND BECOME THE ONLY TRUE  GOD IN SPIRITUAL FLESH BODY!

    Word study:

    TO: 4314 (prós) can mean “IN VIEW OF ”  OBVIOUS AGAIN THAT JESUS, WHO WAS STILL IN HIS OWN GLORY AS MAN IN FLESH BODY, WAS REFERRING TO HIS EVENTUAL GLORIFICATION WITH HIS FATHER……

    SO JOHN WITH   ASCEND TO MEANT : TO RISE UP IN THE GLORY OF MY FATHER !

    NOW IN VIEW OF THE ABOVE LETS READ AGAIN THAT VERSE!

    John 20:17 Jesus saith to her: Do not touch me, OBVIOUS, SHE WAS A MORTAL PERSON, AND BY TOUCHING JESUS, WHO WAS IN HIS OPTIMUM PERFECTION, LACKED THE FATHER’S POWER TO PROTECT MAGDALENE FROM DYING , AND SAID TO HER,for I am not yet IN THE GLORY OF MY  Father. But go to my brethren, and say to them: I  BE IN THE GLORY OF my Father and your Father, IN THE GLORY OF my God and your God. THEREFORE THERE WON’T BE ANY DANGER AT ALL TOUCHING HIM!

    THEN IF YOU CARRY ON READING, FEW HOURS LATER JESUS GLORIFIED AS OUR FATHER AND OUR GOD,  ENTERED THROUGH STONE WALLS, AND SAT IN THE MIDST OF HIS DISCIPLES INGNORING COMPLETELY THE FACT THAT THEY COULD  DEFINITELY NOT JUST TOUCH HIM BUT JUMP ON HIM WITH JOY!

    SO  NO DOUBT!

    JESUS WAS REALLY IN THE TRUTH THE ONLY TRUE VISIBLE GODMAN IN FLESH AND BONES  WHO WALKED ON EARTH!

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Carmel.

    You are drunken with some other gospel,
    and some other Jesus.

    wakeup.

    #362870
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 30 2013,04:07)
    Philippians 2:6

    New Living Translation (NLT)

    6 Though he was God,
       he did not think of equality with God
       as something to cling to.


    Kerwin,

    Remember what I said in the other thread – that eventually Phil 2 will just say, “He was equal to God because he was God”?  :)

    jammin, what does it mean to be God, and still not consider equality WITH God something to cling to?  

    #362871
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=Wakeup,Dec. 01 2013,01:21][/quote]

    Quote
    You are drunken with some other gospel,
    and some other Jesus.

    Wakeup,

    I respect your maturity,

    BUT AT LEAST PICK UP A STATEMENT FROM MINE AND CONTRADICT ME USING SCRIPTURES.

    NOT JUST CONFIRMED THAT YOU ARE WITHOUT WORDS, SIMPLY BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #362911
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 30 2013,16:09)

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 29 2013,04:12)

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 28 2013,19:19)
    kerwin,

    heb 11.3 and john 1.1 are not the same.

    if you check the commentary of AKJV it will tell you that the Word in john 1.1 is Christ himself.
    you are using the version that does not agree to you. LOL


    Jammin,

    I see you are still placing your faith in mere me with your use of the word “commentary”.   We are to test the spirit of such teachings not use them for support.  Why do you agree or disagree with this commentary from an AKJV printing or with the words of this Daniel Wallace except they tell you what your itching ears want to know.


    im just saying the truth. i say what is written. you say what is NOT written.

    btw i still have questions for you boy? dont you want to answer my question? or you may say that you are afraid of the truth.

    what did the ancient laws say?

    1. the image of GOD is his word?

    2. the image of GOD is the Word?


    Jammin,

    They said neither as they were not written in English, the translator chose to capitalize the word “word” for his own reasons.

    #362912
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 30 2013,16:11)
    kerwin,

    because daniel and akjv know the true meaning of john 1.1 and i also read my bible over and over and we have the same teachings.
    the WORD is christ himself and that is why many versions give us the capital W for the word Word to give emphasis and to tell that this Word is no ordinary word but a title of Christ.
    see rev 19.13

    how about you??? you said the meaning of john 1.1 is GOD is like his word.
    where can you read that in john 1.1?| can you give version to support your imagination??? and yet you want people to believe you. you cant even defend your case. think about it boy.


    Jammin,

    So you put your trust in these mere men because even though you cannot make a case for it you still choose to be believe that Scripture teaches that the Jesus is the word of God and the light that is in it.

    God word is like God in being divine.

    #362914
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 30 2013,21:08)

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 30 2013,04:07)
    Philippians 2:6

    New Living Translation (NLT)

    6 Though he was God,
       he did not think of equality with God
       as something to cling to.


    Kerwin,

    Remember what I said in the other thread – that eventually Phil 2 will just say, “He was equal to God because he was God”?  :)

    jammin, what does it mean to be God, and still not consider equality WITH God something to cling to?  


    Mike,

    It is a paraphrase translation by a Trinitarian and due to their bias their thoughts are not God's thoughts.  I have already told Jammin that such translations are less reliable than word for word translations but he chooses not to believe me because they say what his itching ears want to hear.  

    The word for word one are difficult enough for humans to translate not to attempt to think like God in more complex ways.

    Yes, your were correct on what you said.

    #362927
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 01 2013,09:07)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 30 2013,21:08)

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 30 2013,04:07)
    Philippians 2:6

    New Living Translation (NLT)

    6 Though he was God,
       he did not think of equality with God
       as something to cling to.


    Kerwin,

    Remember what I said in the other thread – that eventually Phil 2 will just say, “He was equal to God because he was God”?  :)

    jammin, what does it mean to be God, and still not consider equality WITH God something to cling to?  


    Mike,

    It is a paraphrase translation by a Trinitarian and due to their bias their thoughts are not God's thoughts.  I have already told Jammin that such translations are less reliable than word for word translations but he chooses not to believe me because they say what his itching ears want to hear.  

    The word for word one are difficult enough for humans to translate not to attempt to think like God in more complex ways.

    Yes, your were correct on what you said.


    Kerwin.

    Are you saying that the kjv is unreliable?
    Who is the judge to make that decision?
    Are you qualified to be that judge?
    Should not the scriptures itself be the judge,rather
    than some person,or persons?

    Who are they to judge the Word of God,not understanding the scriptures? Are they not all in confusion one with another?

    Have the rivers not gone dry? There is a thirst,but not of water,but of hearing the Words of God.

    Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

    wakeup.

    #362931
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 01 2013,10:10)

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 01 2013,09:07)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 30 2013,21:08)

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 30 2013,04:07)
    Philippians 2:6

    New Living Translation (NLT)

    6 Though he was God,
       he did not think of equality with God
       as something to cling to.


    Kerwin,

    Remember what I said in the other thread – that eventually Phil 2 will just say, “He was equal to God because he was God”?  :)

    jammin, what does it mean to be God, and still not consider equality WITH God something to cling to?  


    Mike,

    It is a paraphrase translation by a Trinitarian and due to their bias their thoughts are not God's thoughts.  I have already told Jammin that such translations are less reliable than word for word translations but he chooses not to believe me because they say what his itching ears want to hear.  

    The word for word one are difficult enough for humans to translate not to attempt to think like God in more complex ways.

    Yes, your were correct on what you said.


    Kerwin.

    Are you saying that the kjv is unreliable?
    Who is the judge to make that decision?
    Are you qualified to be that judge?
    Should not the scriptures itself be the judge,rather
    than some person,or persons?

    Who are they to judge the Word of God,not understanding the scriptures? Are they not all in confusion one with another?

    Have the rivers not gone dry? There is a thirst,but not of water,but of hearing the Words of God.

    Amos 8:11   Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

    wakeup.


    Wakeup,

    I am qualified if I am guided by God and it does not care if I am not.

    The King James Version is a modern version while Authorized King James is a couple of centuries old.

    #362933
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 01 2013,10:34)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 01 2013,10:10)

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 01 2013,09:07)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 30 2013,21:08)

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 30 2013,04:07)
    Philippians 2:6

    New Living Translation (NLT)

    6 Though he was God,
       he did not think of equality with God
       as something to cling to.


    Kerwin,

    Remember what I said in the other thread – that eventually Phil 2 will just say, “He was equal to God because he was God”?  :)

    jammin, what does it mean to be God, and still not consider equality WITH God something to cling to?  


    Mike,

    It is a paraphrase translation by a Trinitarian and due to their bias their thoughts are not God's thoughts.  I have already told Jammin that such translations are less reliable than word for word translations but he chooses not to believe me because they say what his itching ears want to hear.  

    The word for word one are difficult enough for humans to translate not to attempt to think like God in more complex ways.

    Yes, your were correct on what you said.


    Kerwin.

    Are you saying that the kjv is unreliable?
    Who is the judge to make that decision?
    Are you qualified to be that judge?
    Should not the scriptures itself be the judge,rather
    than some person,or persons?

    Who are they to judge the Word of God,not understanding the scriptures? Are they not all in confusion one with another?

    Have the rivers not gone dry? There is a thirst,but not of water,but of hearing the Words of God.

    Amos 8:11   Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

    wakeup.


    Wakeup,

    I am qualified if I am guided by God and it does not care if I am not.

    The King James Version is a modern version while Authorized King James is a couple of centuries old.


    K. And w

    There never was an authorized version of the KJV. It only was the common bible version available at the time,

    #362939
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 01 2013,15:34)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 01 2013,10:10)

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 01 2013,09:07)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 30 2013,21:08)

    Quote (jammin @ Nov. 30 2013,04:07)
    Philippians 2:6

    New Living Translation (NLT)

    6 Though he was God,
       he did not think of equality with God
       as something to cling to.


    Kerwin,

    Remember what I said in the other thread – that eventually Phil 2 will just say, “He was equal to God because he was God”?  :)

    jammin, what does it mean to be God, and still not consider equality WITH God something to cling to?  


    Mike,

    It is a paraphrase translation by a Trinitarian and due to their bias their thoughts are not God's thoughts.  I have already told Jammin that such translations are less reliable than word for word translations but he chooses not to believe me because they say what his itching ears want to hear.  

    The word for word one are difficult enough for humans to translate not to attempt to think like God in more complex ways.

    Yes, your were correct on what you said.


    Kerwin.

    Are you saying that the kjv is unreliable?
    Who is the judge to make that decision?
    Are you qualified to be that judge?
    Should not the scriptures itself be the judge,rather
    than some person,or persons?

    Who are they to judge the Word of God,not understanding the scriptures? Are they not all in confusion one with another?

    Have the rivers not gone dry? There is a thirst,but not of water,but of hearing the Words of God.

    Amos 8:11   Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

    wakeup.


    Wakeup,

    I am qualified if I am guided by God and it does not care if I am not.

    The King James Version is a modern version while Authorized King James is a couple of centuries old.


    Kerwin.

    How do you know God is guiding you?

    wakeup.

    #362949
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 26 2013,18:10)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 27 2013,02:25)

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 26 2013,13:02)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 26 2013,21:09)

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 25 2013,17:17)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 26 2013,00:11)
    Wakeup,
    The unbelieving Jews didn't call the Two Powers of Heaven a heresy until the Second Power was identified as Jesus during the Christian era. That in itself gives the idea more credibility as possible since they rejected Jesus as their Messiah and showed their lack of truth. Read above post to tigger2.


    LU,  

    Where did you hear that claim?


    http://www.twopowersinheaven.com/

    Quote
    Twenty-five years ago, rabbinical scholar Alan Segal produced what is still the major work on the idea of two powers in heaven in Jewish thought. Segal argued that the two powers idea was not deemed heretical in Jewish theology until the second century C.E. He carefully traced the roots of the teaching back into the Second Temple era (ca. 200 B.C.E.). Segal was able to establish that the idea’s antecedents were in the Hebrew Bible, specifically passages like Dan 7:9ff., Exo 23:20-23, and Exo 15:3. However, he was unable to discern any coherent religious framework from which these passages and others were conceptually derived. Persian dualism was unacceptable as an explanation since neither of the two powers in heaven were evil. Segal speculated that the divine warrior imagery of the broader ancient near east likely had some relationship.

    In my dissertation (UW-Madison, 2004) I argued that Segal’s instincts were correct. My own work bridges the gap between his book and the Hebrew Bible understood in its Canaanite religious context. I suggest that the “original model” for the two powers idea was the role of the vice-regent of the divine council. The paradigm of a high sovereign God (El) who rules heaven and earth through the agency of a second, appointed god (Baal) became part of Israelite religion, albeit with some modification. For the orthodox Israelite, Yahweh was both sovereign and vice regent—occupying both “slots” as it were at the head of the divine council. The binitarian portrayal of Yahweh in the Hebrew Bible was motivated by this belief. The ancient Israelite knew two Yahwehs—one invisible, a spirit, the other visible, often in human form.  The two Yahwehs at times appear together in the text, at times being distinguished, at other times not.

    Early Judaism understood this portrayal and its rationale. There was no sense of a violation of monotheism since either figure was indeed Yahweh. There was no second distinct god running the affairs of the cosmos. During the Second Temple period, Jewish theologians and writers speculated on an identity for the second Yahweh. Guesses ranged from divinized humans from the stories of the Hebrew Bible to exalted angels. These speculations were not considered unorthodox. That acceptance changed when certain Jews, the early Christians, connected Jesus with this orthodox Jewish idea. This explains why these Jews, the first converts to following Jesus the Christ, could simultaneously worship the God of Israel and Jesus, and yet refuse to acknowledge any other god. Jesus was the incarnate second Yahweh. In response, as Segal’s work demonstrated, Judaism pronounced the two powers teaching a heresy sometime in the second century A.D.


    LU,

    Alan Segal sounds like the one that made the argument.  Your source seems to have added to it but strangely seem to believe it is a teaching the evolved from earlier teachings.


    If the Jews understood two powers in heaven as Jehovah in the OT but discredited it later when the Christians were claiming that one of the two was Jesus, would it make any difference to you?


    LU,

    I have never seen where the Jews believed in two powers.  They believe the word is the mediator between Jehovah and his creations and they personalize it. That is the closest I know to getting to what Alan Segal concluded.  I am not sure he is a Jew though I heard that he was a theologian and who to me seems to believe in religious diversity.


    Kerwin,
    Perhaps you should learn more about this topic. You could read Alan Segal's book about it. Here it is:

    Two Powers in Heaven: Early Rabbinic Reports about Christianity and Gnosticism

    http://www.amazon.com/Two-Pow….n+segal

    This is what it says about the topic:

    Quote
    In his now classic Two Powers in Heaven, Alan Segal examines rabbinic evidence about early manifestations of the “two powers” heresy within Judaism. Segal sheds light upon the development of and relationships among early Christianity, Gnosticism, and Merkabah mysticism and demonstrates that belief in the “two powers in heaven” was widespread by the first century, and may have been a catalyst for the Jewish rejection of early Christianity. An important addition to New Testament and Gnostic scholarship by this much revered scholar, Segal's Two Powers in Heaven is made available once again for a new generation.

    #362954
    terraricca
    Participant

    kERWIN

    Ecc 12:11 The words of the wise are like goads, their collected sayings like firmly embedded nails—given by one Shepherd.
    Ecc 12:12 Be warned, my son, of anything in addition to them.
    Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body.
    Ecc 12:13 Now all has been heard;
    here is the conclusion of the matter:
    Fear God and keep his commandments,
    for this is the whole duty of man.
    Ecc 12:14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
    including every hidden thing,
    whether it is good or evil.

    this is good advice

    #362957
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 02 2013,06:59)
    kERWIN

    Ecc 12:11 The words of the wise are like goads, their collected sayings like firmly embedded nails—given by one Shepherd.
    Ecc 12:12 Be warned, my son, of anything in addition to them.
    Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body.
    Ecc 12:13 Now all has been heard;
    here is the conclusion of the matter:
    Fear God and keep his commandments,
    for this is the whole duty of man.
    Ecc 12:14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
    including every hidden thing,
    whether it is good or evil.

    this is good advice


    T.

    Very good advice for the independent
    wisdom seekers,following their own way.
    In their journey *judging* the Word of God
    by their own wisdom.

    wakeup.

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