John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 14,881 through 14,900 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #362960
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 26 2013,15:49)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 26 2013,08:43)
    Mike,
    You confuse something He inherently is with something He does…………


    Kathi,

    Your whole post relies on believing that the word “God” describes a SPECIES – of which there are only two members.

    I agree that Jesus is inherently a “spirit being” like his and our one and only God.  But I don't believe he is inherently “God” – as if the word “God” describes a multi-membered species, like the word “human” does.


    Mike,
    It is an interesting topic to consider. What does the Bible have to say about the classification of supernatural beings? From what I can tell, the Father and the Son are in the same classification…the most high classification. All others are far below that classification. What is unique about the most high class of beings that contain only the Father and the Son?

    Two persons can be in the same classification even though one person has authority over the other within the classified species.

    Humans are like that. Humans are all in one classified species but there are some who have authority over others within that species.

    Quote
    But I don't believe he is inherently “God” – as if the word “God” describes a multi-membered species, like the word “human” does.

    Do you believe that the Father is inherently a god? Do you believe Chemosh, the detestable god of Moab, is inherently a god? If not, what is the Father inherently and what is Chemosh inherently?

    #362963
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 26 2013,16:12)
    Also Kathi,

    You didn't address one of my questions.  I wanted to know if “the Word of YHWH” was ever said in the targums to be WITH “YHWH”.

    In other words, did they ALWAYS change “YHWH” to “the Word of YHWH” – to the point that “YHWH Himself” is not even mentioned at all?  Or are there scriptures where they clearly outline the fact that “YHWH” and “the Word of YHWH” worked together on something, or were with each other, or something that would make us understand that there were two?

    Please give a targum example of this, if there is one.


    Mike,
    If I find something, I will let you know. There are many examples that indicate “Yahweh” was changed to “the Word of Yahweh” and considered Israel's covenant God.

    You have the same opportunity to look for this information as I do, if you really want to know.

    #362964
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 27 2013,05:38)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 27 2013,07:22)
    Wakeup,
    I believe that Jehovah is two powers, one is the Father and one is the Son. Both are called Jehovah together and separately and together they act in complete cooperation and interdependency.
    Jehovah the Father sent Jehovah the Son. Jehovah the Father gave Jehovah the Son. Jehovah the Father is not Jehovah the Son.


    Lightenup.

    Quote
    Jehovah the Father sent Jehovah the Son. Jehovah the Father gave Jehovah the Son. Jehovah the Father is not Jehovah the Son

    That sounds like speaking in tongues.
    Can you show us scriptures saying Jesus is also Jehovah his Father? If not;then its all made up,and contradictory to the scriptures.

    wakeup.


    Wakeup,
    Perhaps you just lack understanding here and that is why it sounds confusing.

    Please answer this question:
    Is Jehovah/YHVH the Father's name?

    #362966
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 02 2013,08:10)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 27 2013,05:38)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 27 2013,07:22)
    Wakeup,
    I believe that Jehovah is two powers, one is the Father and one is the Son. Both are called Jehovah together and separately and together they act in complete cooperation and interdependency.
    Jehovah the Father sent Jehovah the Son. Jehovah the Father gave Jehovah the Son. Jehovah the Father is not Jehovah the Son.


    Lightenup.

    Quote
    Jehovah the Father sent Jehovah the Son. Jehovah the Father gave Jehovah the Son. Jehovah the Father is not Jehovah the Son

    That sounds like speaking in tongues.
    Can you show us scriptures saying Jesus is also Jehovah his Father? If not;then its all made up,and contradictory to the scriptures.

    wakeup.


    Wakeup,
    Perhaps you just lack understanding here and that is why it sounds confusing.

    Please answer this question:
    Is Jehovah/YHVH the Father's name?


    Lightenup.

    Exodus 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

    Psalms 83:18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

    Isaiah 12:2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.

    Isaiah 26:4 Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength:

    wakeup.

    #362969
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 02 2013,02:10)

    Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 02 2013,06:59)
    kERWIN

    Ecc 12:11 The words of the wise are like goads, their collected sayings like firmly embedded nails—given by one Shepherd.
    Ecc 12:12 Be warned, my son, of anything in addition to them.
    Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body.
    Ecc 12:13 Now all has been heard;
    here is the conclusion of the matter:
    Fear God and keep his commandments,
    for this is the whole duty of man.
    Ecc 12:14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
    including every hidden thing,
    whether it is good or evil.

    this is good advice


    T.

    Very good advice for the independent
    wisdom seekers,following their own way.
    In their journey *judging* the Word of God
    by their own wisdom.

    wakeup.


    w

    you are the independent seeker to establish his own wisdom over the God's wisdom ,

    you do not understand what Solomon says ,and so twisting his words ,

    so read the entire book ,to learn truth and wisdom

    #362971
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 01 2013,10:39)

    K. And w

    There never was an authorized version of the KJV. It only was the common bible version available at the time,


    T,

    The original  was authorized by King James of England and it was not common at first.  What is called the Authorized King James Version today is not the one  that was authorized.  There is yet another version that is just called the King James Version.

    #362972
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 01 2013,17:12)

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 01 2013,15:34)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 01 2013,10:10)

    Kerwin.

    Are you saying that the kjv is unreliable?
    Who is the judge to make that decision?
    Are you qualified to be that judge?
    Should not the scriptures itself be the judge,rather
    than some person,or persons?

    Who are they to judge the Word of God,not understanding the scriptures? Are they not all in confusion one with another?

    Have the rivers not gone dry? There is a thirst,but not of water,but of hearing the Words of God.

    Amos 8:11   Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

    wakeup.


    Wakeup,

    I am qualified if I am guided by God and it does not care if I am not.

    The King James Version is a modern version while Authorized King James is a couple of centuries old.


    Kerwin.

    How do you know God is guiding you?

    wakeup.


    Wakeup,

    I am confident God is guiding me for the reason I believe that those people who deeply desire to be righteous as God is righteous will become like God in true righteousness and holiness.  I am confident that either that accomplish this goal or are credited with accomplishing it  before they die the first death will be judged worthy of inheriting the kingdom of God.  I believe that this can only be done through faith in Jesus Christ from first to last.

    #362973
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 02 2013,04:35)

    Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 01 2013,10:39)

    K. And w

    There never was an authorized version of the KJV. It only was the common bible version available at the time,


    T,

    The original  was authorized by King James of England and it was not common at first.  What is called the Authorized King James Version today is not the one  that was authorized.  There is yet another version that is just called the King James Version.


    K

    this is what it says ;

    King James Version
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    For other uses, see King James Version (disambiguation).
    King James Version
    The title page's central text is:”THE HOLY BIBLE,Conteyning the Old Testament,AND THE NEW:Newly Translated out of the Originall tongues: & with the former Translations diligently compared and revised, by his Majesties speciall Comandement.Appointed to be read in Churches.Imprinted at London by Robert Barker, Printer to the Kings most Excellent Majestie.ANNO DOM. 1611 .”At bottom is:”C. Boel fecit in Richmont.”.

    The title page to the 1611 first edition of the Authorized Version Bible by Cornelis Boel shows the Apostles Peter and Paul seated centrally above the central text, which is flanked by Moses and Aaron. In the four corners sit Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, authors of the four gospels, with their symbolic animals. The rest of the Apostles (with Judas facing away) stand around Peter and Paul. At the very top is the Tetragrammaton “יהוה”.
    Abbreviation:KJV or AV
    Complete Bible published:1611
    Read online:King James Version at Wikisource
    Textual basis:NT: Textus Receptus, similar to the Byzantine text-type; some readings derived from the Vulgate. OT: Masoretic Text with Septuagint influence.[citation needed] Apocrypha: Septuagint and Vulgate.
    Reading level:US and Canada Grade 8–10[1]
    Copyright status:Public domain due to age, publication restrictions in the United Kingdom
    (See Copyright status)
    Genesis 1:1–3[show]
    John 3:16[show]
    The King James Version (KJV), commonly known as the Authorized Version (AV) or King James Bible (KJB), is an English translation of the Christian Bible for the Church of England begun in 1604 and completed in 1611.[2] First printed by the King's Printer Robert Barker,[3][4] this was the third translation into English to be approved by the English Church authorities. The first was the Great Bible commissioned in the reign of King Henry VIII, and the second was the Bishops' Bible of 1568.[5] In January 1604, King James I convened the Hampton Court Conference where a new English version was conceived in response to the perceived problems of the earlier translations as detected by the Puritans,[6] a faction within the Church of England.[7]

    and it was never made official in any way ,

    #362978
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Dec. 01 2013,16:31)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 02 2013,08:10)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 27 2013,05:38)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 27 2013,07:22)
    Wakeup,
    I believe that Jehovah is two powers, one is the Father and one is the Son. Both are called Jehovah together and separately and together they act in complete cooperation and interdependency.
    Jehovah the Father sent Jehovah the Son. Jehovah the Father gave Jehovah the Son. Jehovah the Father is not Jehovah the Son.


    Lightenup.

    Quote
    Jehovah the Father sent Jehovah the Son. Jehovah the Father gave Jehovah the Son. Jehovah the Father is not Jehovah the Son

    That sounds like speaking in tongues.
    Can you show us scriptures saying Jesus is also Jehovah his Father? If not;then its all made up,and contradictory to the scriptures.

    wakeup.


    Wakeup,
    Perhaps you just lack understanding here and that is why it sounds confusing.

    Please answer this question:
    Is Jehovah/YHVH the Father's name?


    Lightenup.

    Exodus 6:3   And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

    Psalms 83:18   That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

    Isaiah 12:2   Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.

    Isaiah 26:4   Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength:

    wakeup.


    So Wakeup,
    I am assuming that you realize that Jehovah is the name of the Father…correct? Please answer with a yes or a no. thx.

    #362980
    tigger2
    Participant

    The Most High God is Jehovah (YHWH) alone (Ps. 83:18). Jehovah is called the Father (but he is never called the Son, the Firstborn, the Only-begotten, the Christ or Messiah, etc.). Even many personal names of Israelites in the Bible actually said “Jehovah is the Father”: ‘Abijah,’ ‘Abiah,’ ‘Joab,’ etc. or “The Father is God”: ‘Abiel,’ ‘Eliab,’ etc. – but they never said anything remotely like ‘Jehovah is the Son’ (or the Messiah, the Firstborn, etc.)!

    “But now, O Jehovah, thou art our Father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.” – Isaiah 64:8, ASV.

    #362981
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @tigger2

    wrong…

    Jeremiah 23
    5Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land.

    6In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely; and this is his name whereby he shall be called: Jehovah our righteousness.

    Jehovah says HIS name shall be called Jehovah our righteousness!! That would be the messiah's name, btw.

    Quote
    Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

    In his days Judah shall be saved,…. In the days of the Messiah, the righteous Branch, and reigning prosperous King, not only the people of the Jews, God's elect among them, but all that truly embrace him, and confess him, as Judah's name signifies, shall be saved from all their sins; from the law, its curse and condemnation; and from wrath to come; and from all their spiritual enemies. In the latter part of his days all Israel shall be saved, Romans 11:26;

    and Israel shall dwell safely; without any fear of enemies, being saved from them; being in that city, the church, which has salvation for walls and bulwarks; angels encamping about them; the Lord as a wall of fire around them; the Spirit lifting up a standard against their enemies, when they come in like a flood; and the Messiah their rock and refuge, and strong tower, their strength and righteousness; as follows: for all the salvation and safety of the Lord's people are owing to the righteousness of Christ; the effect of which is peace, quietness, and assurance for ever:

    and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS; because he is the author of righteousness to his people, and is only so; no creature could be the author of it; unrighteous man cannot be the author of righteousness; and the righteousness of an angel is of no advantage to man; and indeed neither of the other divine Persons is the Lord our righteousness; for though they are both Jehovah, the Father and the Spirit, yet not our righteousness: the Father appointed and sent Christ to work it out; he approved and accepted of it, when wrought out; and imputes it to his people; but is not the author of it: so the Spirit convinces of the need of it; reveals it, and brings it near; works faith to receive it; and applies it, and pronounces a person justified by it; but is not the author of it; that the Son of God only is; who is become so by his obedience to the law, and by bearing the penalty of it; and who, having been delivered for our offences, rose again for our justification: and this righteousness, which he has wrought out to the satisfaction of law and justice, becomes “ours”; it being signed for us, and wrought out for us, by a free gift of it is given to us; ours through the imputation of it to us by the Father, and in virtue of our union to Christ, and interest in him; and through the application of it to us by the Spirit of God; who puts it upon us, and clothes us with it, and enables us to lay hold upon it, and claim interest in it; and which may be meant by Christ being “called our righteousness”; for the meaning is, not that he should commonly go by this name; but only that he should be that unto us which it signifies; and that we should by faith, even every true Israelite, every believer, call him our righteousness; say that we have righteousness in him make mention of that continually, and express our desires to be found atone in it; for so the words may be rendered, “and this is the name whereby he shall call him (g), THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS”; and a sweet name to a sensible sinner it is; to one that has felt the guilt of sin in his conscience; seen his need of a righteousness, and the worth of it. That the Messiah is here meant is acknowledged by the Jews, ancient and modern (h).

    #362984
    tigger2
    Participant

    Quote
    6In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely; and this is his name whereby he shall be called: Jehovah our righteousness.

    Jehovah says HIS name shall be called Jehovah our righteousness!! That would be the messiah's name, btw.

    None of that disproves the many facts presented in my last post. But here is more from my studies concerning names:

    Another name the Messiah is to be called by at Jer. 23:6 is rendered, `The LORD [YHWH] IS Our Righteousness' in the following Bibles: RSV; NRSV; NEB; NJB; JPS (Margolis, ed.); Tanakh; ESV; Byington; AT; and ASV (footnote).

    Of course other translations render it more literally by calling the Messiah “The LORD [YHWH] Our Righteousness” to help support a `Jesus is God' doctrine. Some of these (such as the NASB) actually render the very same name at Jer. 33:16 as “The LORD [or Jehovah] is Our Righteousness”! – [bracketed information is mine].

    Unfortunately for “Jesus is Jehovah” advocates, the very same name given to the Messiah at Jer. 23:16 is given to a city at Jer. 33:16.

    So if the name means that the bearer is actually Jehovah Himself, then Jerusalem is the Most High God!

    #362988
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 02 2013,04:48)

    Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 02 2013,04:35)

    Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 01 2013,10:39)

    K. And w

    There never was an authorized version of the KJV. It only was the common bible version available at the time,


    T,

    The original  was authorized by King James of England and it was not common at first.  What is called the Authorized King James Version today is not the one  that was authorized.  There is yet another version that is just called the King James Version.


    K

    this is what it says ;

    King James Version
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    For other uses, see King James Version (disambiguation).
    King James Version
    The title page's central text is:”THE HOLY BIBLE,Conteyning the Old Testament,AND THE NEW:Newly Translated out of the Originall tongues: & with the former Translations diligently compared and revised, by his Majesties speciall Comandement.Appointed to be read in Churches.Imprinted at London by Robert Barker, Printer to the Kings most Excellent Majestie.ANNO DOM. 1611 .”At bottom is:”C. Boel fecit in Richmont.”.

    The title page to the 1611 first edition of the Authorized Version Bible by Cornelis Boel shows the Apostles Peter and Paul seated centrally above the central text, which is flanked by Moses and Aaron. In the four corners sit Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, authors of the four gospels, with their symbolic animals. The rest of the Apostles (with Judas facing away) stand around Peter and Paul. At the very top is the Tetragrammaton “יהוה”.
    Abbreviation:KJV or AV
    Complete Bible published:1611
    Read online:King James Version at Wikisource
    Textual basis:NT: Textus Receptus, similar to the Byzantine text-type; some readings derived from the Vulgate. OT: Masoretic Text with Septuagint influence.[citation needed] Apocrypha: Septuagint and Vulgate.
    Reading level:US and Canada Grade 8–10[1]
    Copyright status:Public domain due to age, publication restrictions in the United Kingdom
    (See Copyright status)
    Genesis 1:1–3[show]
    John 3:16[show]
    The King James Version (KJV), commonly known as the Authorized Version (AV) or King James Bible (KJB), is an English translation of the Christian Bible for the Church of England begun in 1604 and completed in 1611.[2] First printed by the King's Printer Robert Barker,[3][4] this was the third translation into English to be approved by the English Church authorities. The first was the Great Bible commissioned in the reign of King Henry VIII, and the second was the Bishops' Bible of 1568.[5] In January 1604, King James I convened the Hampton Court Conference where a new English version was conceived in response to the perceived problems of the earlier translations as detected by the Puritans,[6] a faction within the Church of England.[7]

    and it was never made official in any way ,


    T,

    That passage states it was third version made official by the kings of England.

    #362989
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (tigger2 @ Dec. 02 2013,12:27)

    Quote
    6In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely; and this is his name whereby he shall be called: Jehovah our righteousness.

    Jehovah says HIS name shall be called Jehovah our righteousness!! That would be the messiah's name, btw.

    None of that disproves the many facts presented in my last post.  But here is more from my studies concerning names:

    Another name the Messiah is to be called by at Jer. 23:6 is rendered, `The LORD [YHWH] IS Our Righteousness' in the following Bibles: RSV; NRSV; NEB; NJB; JPS (Margolis, ed.); Tanakh; ESV; Byington; AT; and ASV (footnote).

    Of course other translations render it more literally by calling the Messiah “The LORD [YHWH] Our Righteousness” to help support a `Jesus is God' doctrine. Some of these (such as the NASB) actually render the very same name at Jer. 33:16 as “The LORD [or Jehovah] is Our Righteousness”! – [bracketed information is mine].

    Unfortunately for “Jesus is Jehovah” advocates, the very same name given to the Messiah at Jer. 23:16 is given to a city at Jer. 33:16.

    So if the name means that the bearer is actually Jehovah Himself, then Jerusalem is the Most High God!


    Tigger2.

    In Jesus days, He shall be called the Lord our righteousness

    Jeremiah 23:6 **In his days** **Judah shall be saved**, and **Israel shall dwell safely**: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

    1.Who is He?
    2..Who is Judah?
    3..Who is israel?
    Can you explain?

    Jeremiah 33:16 In those days shall *Judah* be saved, and *Jerusalem* shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith **she shall be called**, The LORD our righteousness.

    1.Who is she?
    2.Who is Judah?
    3.Who is Jerusalem?
    can you explain?

    Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, **The everlasting Father**, The Prince of Peace.

    The son of God is called the everlasting Father?

    Can you explain?

    wakeup.

    #362992
    tigger2
    Participant

    Quote
    Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, **The everlasting Father**, The Prince of Peace.

    The son of God is called the everlasting Father?

    Can you explain?

    wakeup.

    Yes:

    [url[ https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….2;st=70 [/url]
    See Tigger2 post: Dec. 02 2013,10:42 (page 8)

    #363024
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (tigger2 @ Dec. 02 2013,14:11)

    Quote
    Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, **The everlasting Father**, The Prince of Peace.

    The son of God is called the everlasting Father?

    Can you explain?

    wakeup.

    Yes:

    [url[ https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….2;st=70 [/url]
    See Tigger2 post: Dec. 02 2013,10:42 (page 8)


    Tigger2.

    Can you use your own words and knowledge?

    wakeup.

    #363030
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 01 2013,13:42)

    Quote
    In his now classic Two Powers in Heaven, Alan Segal examines rabbinic evidence about early manifestations of the “two powers” heresy within Judaism. Segal sheds light upon the development of and relationships among early Christianity, Gnosticism, and Merkabah mysticism and demonstrates that belief in the “two powers in heaven” was widespread by the first century, and may have been a catalyst for the Jewish rejection of early Christianity. An important addition to New Testament and Gnostic scholarship by this much revered scholar, Segal's Two Powers in Heaven is made available once again for a new generation.


    It seems to me that your source calls this “two powers” thing a “heresy within Judah” – and says this belief was “widespread by the first century”.

    That doesn't sound like it was widespread BEFORE the first century A.D., does it?

    #363031
    tigger2
    Participant

    Quote
    Tigger2.

    Can you use your own words and knowledge?

    wakeup.

    Those ARE my own words and knowledge!!

    #363032
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 01 2013,15:04)
    From what I can tell, the Father and the Son are in the same classification…the most high classification.


    And what tells you that?  I read that Jesus is the firstborn of a bunch of spirit sons of God.  I read that he was the firstborn of all creation, and the beginning of the creation by God.  I read that God brought him forth as the first of His works.  I read that his origins are from ancient days of old.

    I don't read that he dwelled from eternity inside of God before God brought him to the outside.

    Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 01 2013,15:04)
    Do you believe that the Father is inherently a god? Do you believe Chemosh, the detestable god of Moab, is inherently a god? If not, what is the Father inherently and what is Chemosh inherently?


    I don't think “inherently” is the right word for this discussion.  But I believe that the Father God is a spirit being, and that His spirit sons also share in His spirit nature.  That would include Chemosh, who I believe is one of the spirit sons of God who chose to follow Satan when he rebelled.

    The words “el” and “theos” refer to powerful supernatural beings, of which Jehovah is one, Jesus is one, Satan is one, and Chemosh is one……….. among many, many others.

    So if you want to call “powerful supernatural beings” a “species”, then you need to include ALL of the members – not just Jesus and his God Jehovah.

    #363033
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 01 2013,15:08)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 26 2013,16:12)
    Also Kathi,

    You didn't address one of my questions.  I wanted to know if “the Word of YHWH” was ever said in the targums to be WITH “YHWH”.

    In other words, did they ALWAYS change “YHWH” to “the Word of YHWH” – to the point that “YHWH Himself” is not even mentioned at all?  Or are there scriptures where they clearly outline the fact that “YHWH” and “the Word of YHWH” worked together on something, or were with each other, or something that would make us understand that there were two?

    Please give a targum example of this, if there is one.


    Mike,
    If I find something, I will let you know. There are many examples that indicate “Yahweh” was changed to “the Word of Yahweh” and considered Israel's covenant God.

    You have the same opportunity to look for this information as I do, if you really want to know.


    I am not interested in searching in the old writings of mere men for something I consider to be bunk in the first place, Kathi.

    But since YOU are the one pushing this “two powers” thing, don't you think you ought to find out a little more about it, so you can answer the first questions that pop into our heads – like the one I asked?

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