John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 14,401 through 14,420 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #359953
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 23 2013,04:58)

    Quote (2besee @ Oct. 22 2013,02:28)
    I ask you this:
    Is Mike's 'mind', and Mike's 'word', and Mike's 'spirit' other separate beings – or is Mike “one”?


    And I believe I answered it already with an analogy about going to the store.

    Would anyone ever say, “2B went to the market, and his word went WITH him.” ?


    Mike,

    You already you can do that sort of thing. If that rocks your world then try the words to various kitchen utensils. :D

    #359957
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 22 2013,02:48)
    You are in error in your word use.  Explicit is when it is written in the very words which is clearly not the case.


    From Dictionary.com:

    ex·plic·it
     
    adjective  
    1. fully and clearly expressed or demonstrated; leaving nothing merely implied; unequivocal:

    I didn't see a definition that said, “exact words”.

    And the point is that the earth was already there, formless and void, at the time God said, “Let there be light.”

    You seem to think that God first started to create the earth, then created light, then created the heavens, then created the angels, then came back later and FINISHED the earth – at which time the angels shouted for joy at God COMPLETING the earth He had started so long ago.

    And all I want to know is: DO YOU INDEED BELIEVE THIS FORMULA AS STATED ABOVE?

    #359958
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 22 2013,17:07)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 23 2013,04:58)

    Quote (2besee @ Oct. 22 2013,02:28)
    I ask you this:
    Is Mike's 'mind', and Mike's 'word', and Mike's 'spirit' other separate beings – or is Mike “one”?


    And I believe I answered it already with an analogy about going to the store.

    Would anyone ever say, “2B went to the market, and his word went WITH him.” ?


    Mike,

    You already can do that sort of thing.  


    Nonsense, Kerwin. You have never said those words in your life, and no one has ever said them to you. If someone did start talking like that, they'd have him locked up in an insane asylum.

    #359960
    2besee
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 23 2013,12:07)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 23 2013,04:58)

    Quote (2besee @ Oct. 22 2013,02:28)
    I ask you this:
    Is Mike's 'mind', and Mike's 'word', and Mike's 'spirit' other separate beings – or is Mike “one”?


    And I believe I answered it already with an analogy about going to the store.

    Would anyone ever say, “2B went to the market, and his word went WITH him.” ?


    Mike,

    You already you can do that sort of thing.  If that rocks your world then try the words to various kitchen utensils.   :D


    :D Funny.

    #359961
    2besee
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 23 2013,11:58)

    Quote (2besee @ Oct. 22 2013,02:28)
    I ask you this:
    Is Mike's 'mind', and Mike's 'word', and Mike's 'spirit' other separate beings – or is Mike “one”?


    And I believe I answered it already with an analogy about going to the store.

    Would anyone ever say, “2B went to the market, and his word went WITH him.” ?


    So then Mike,
    You are saying that your thoughts, your word, your spirit, etc, are all other seperate people from you? Yes or No.

    #359962
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 22 2013,09:53)
    Wow, Mike:

    You won't listen to instruction, and so, how are you ever going to understand the truth.


    Marty, I don't need complicated “instruction” for something so simple.  

    Here, let me use one of the scriptures you quoted to show you how simple it really is:

    John 12:46
    I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

    That was Jesus talking about HIMSELF, Marty.  Now compare that with what John said about THE WORD:

    John 1:9
    The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.

    ALL OF the things said about “the Word” in scripture are also said about “Jesus Christ” in scripture.  This tells a normal person that Jesus IS the Word.

    But because of your selfish personal desires, you don't WANT Jesus to be the Word.  So you will continue to hem and haw, and search and search for “experts” who will tell you what your ears are itching to hear.  You are looking for “experts” who can tell you that “Jesus has aspects of the Word”.  Or that “the Word pertains to Jesus”.  Or that “Jesus has the character of the Word”.  Anything to keep you from accepting the most obvious understanding that is right in front of your eyes.

    Now, when you can explain to me how Adam was able to give all the animals their “character”, or how they were able to tell Elizabeth that no one in her family has the “character” of “the Lord is gracious”, I will give another listen to your current “expert”.

    In the meantime, it seems that within five minutes of his 44 minute long speech, I was able to come up with SCRIPTURES that clearly refute the things he was trying to teach us.

    My guess is that this guy is like you……….. another “Jesus was never anything but a man” believer.  And he is trying his best to avoid Jesus actually being the Word – just like you are.

    But until you can explain the “Adam” and “Elizabeth” thing for me, would you do me the solid of answering the question I've been asking?

    Marty, WHOSE name is called “The Word of God” in Rev 19:13?

    #359963
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (2besee @ Oct. 22 2013,17:42)
    So then Mike,
    You are saying that your thoughts, your word, your spirit, etc, are all other seperate people from you? Yes or No.


    NO, 2B.  They are POSSESSIONS of me.  They are not living entities who can be with me.  And they are not actually me.

    On the other hand, if I had a personal spokesperson called, The Word of Mike, that particular “Word” could be WITH me.  But the very fact that this “Word” could be WITH me would PROHIBIT him from actually BEING me.

    2B, see if you can refute this:

    The Father God Almighty Himself CANNOT be WITH the Father God Almighty Himself.

    Can you refute it?

    #360006
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 23 2013,05:27)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 22 2013,13:15)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 22 2013,09:44)
    Jammin,

    Quote
    ^ Harris, Murray J. ;Jesus as God: The New Testament Use of Theos in Reference to Jesus, 1992. <Murray J. Harris. Baker Books, pub. SBN 0801021952, p. 69

    Quote
    “[It] is clear that in the translation “the Word was God,” the term God is being used to denote his nature or essence, and not his person. But in normal English usage “God” is a proper noun, referring to the person of the Father or corporately to the three persons of the Godhead. Moreover, “the Word was God” suggests that “the Word” and “God” are convertible terms, that the proposition is reciprocating. But the Word is neither the Father nor the Trinity… The rendering cannot stand without explanation.”

    So it does not say Jesus is the Father or, as Trinitarian definition of God would have it, Jesus is the 3 in 1 God.  Interpretating it as you like requires explanation.

    Quote
    im not putting my belief to those men. what im saying is they KNOW what they are doing. they translated greek to english not will all small letters but those words need capitalization, they capitalize the letter.

    So your words say that you do not put your faith in them but the spirit of your words says otherwise as you do not want them questioned.    Those sure sounds like you have put your faith in them because you believe they are far above you.

    I can say that if their only reason for capitalizing the word in some places and not in other is because there chosen doctrine leads them to then you are taking their word that they follow the right teaching.  Do you follow all these men say even as they dispute with one another?

    Quote
    you told me that God is an aspect of the WORD.
    can you read that in john 1.1?:

    If you truly lack the ability to follow my reasoning as you seem to be acting like then perhaps you also fail to comprehend that being divine is an aspect of God.  I do not believe either are the case.  

    Quote
    you are telling me lies Kerwin. you are the one who wants doctrine from men.you are preaching doctrines from men and not from God.

    You are the one that is teaching to take the words of men not I.  Instead I try to reason with you out of Scripture.

    Note: reference in relation to and quote from Jesus as God: The New Testament Use of Theos in Reference to Jesus.


    you did not give me any single version in greek about john 1.1
    where can you read in greek that God is an aspect of the word?

    do you know the difference between word and Word?
    you qouted moffat buy he translated john 1.1 as Word and not word.

    you should know first the meaning of that verse before posting it here.

    you know what you are really a false teacher. you said before he wil be called the Word of God in rev 19.13 but no version would say that/ you are just making your own version.

    your statement about rev 19.13 and john 1.1 tells us that you are a false teacher.


    Jammin,

    You have not given me no scriptures that state the messiah bore the name word before he was made in his mother's womb.

    Another way of saying that the Word like God is to say the Word is divine which is why the Koine Greek words can be translated either way.  

    Like is probably a better word than aspect in English as God and theos are not complete synonyms in that theos can mean “his counsels, interests, things due to him” and God does not.   The word is equivalent to his counsels.

    If you are following this then you should figure out that I don't mean that God is a part of his word even though I did use the wrong English word.

    Note: theos
    Note: I have formerly used the word aspect to express an idea works fine in Koine Greek but not in English.  I believe like is the correct English word.


    some versions say the Word was divine BUT it didnt say God is an aspect of the word.
    take note. they say word and not Word.

    here is the version that says Christ before he became flesh, he was called the Word.

    John 1:1

    Contemporary English Version (CEV)
    The Word of Life

    1 In the beginning was the one
    who is called the Word.
    The Word was with God
    and was truly God.

    John 1:1

    New Life Version (NLV)
    Christ Lived Before the World Was Made

    1 The Word (Christ) was in the beginning. The Word was with God. The Word was God.
    John 1:14

    New Life Version (NLV)

    14 Christ became human flesh and lived among us. We saw His shining-greatness. This greatness is given only to a much-loved Son from His Father. He was full of loving-favor and truth.

    now give me a version that says in john 1.1 that GOD is an aspect of the word.
    can you give me or not?

    #360018
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (2besee @ Oct. 23 2013,10:42)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 23 2013,11:58)

    Quote (2besee @ Oct. 22 2013,02:28)
    I ask you this:
    Is Mike's 'mind', and Mike's 'word', and Mike's 'spirit' other separate beings – or is Mike “one”?


    And I believe I answered it already with an analogy about going to the store.

    Would anyone ever say, “2B went to the market, and his word went WITH him.” ?


    So then Mike,
    You are saying that your thoughts, your word, your spirit, etc, are all other seperate people from you? Yes or No.


    2besee……….That is exactly what he is saying, i think our brother Mike need to visit a psychotherapist  and maybe a little couch chat would help.  :)

    He just need to believe what the dictionary say a word is , it is the expression of one OWN THOUGHTS and Yes Mike your “thoughts' ARE YOU rather you believe that or not , so a man thinketh SO HE “IS”

    2besee, Mike doesn't realize “HIS” words are who and what He is, because they come from his “OWN” MIND and SPIRIT. They are “EXACTLY” WHO and WHAT HE “IS”.  Even of you quote someone else you are showing that person to who ever you are quoting it to , Even as Jesus quoted God the Father's words to us, he was never took responsibility for those word but always said they were the Fathers words, and even said those words were Spirit and Life, he never ever said those words were His, as if he was those words. I know you clearly understand this 2besee.

    peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene

    #360021
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 20 2013,08:03)
    [/quote]
    [quote=kerwin,Oct. 20 2013,08:03]


    Quote
    There was no light of any kind at that time and I doubt Satan was around yet as there was no light to see by.  It is only after the majority of the foundation of earth are laid when the final corner capstone of the foundation is being laid that the sons of God and morning stars celebrate.  

    Satan was the chief of those morning stars for a time.  His fall happened no later than when he chose to tempt Eve with evil and a time after he was created.

    Kerwin,

    That's your poor understanding, I'm afraid!

    ALSO IN GENESIS 1:1 WHEN GOD CREATED HEAVEN AND EARTH, THE WHOLE UNIVERSE WAS IN COMPLETE PURE LIGHT, NOT IN DARKNESS LIKE YOU SAID, SINCE GOD HIMSELF IS THE MOST PURE LIGHT, AND HE WAS IN FULL HARMONY WITH ALL HIS SPIRTUAL CREATURES ! SO NOT EVEN THE SUN WAS IN EXISTENCE, DUE TO THE FACT THAT THERE WAS NO NEED OF IT.

    SIMPLY ALL FUNCTIONED IRRETIONALLY !

    EVEN THE ANGELS WERE CALLED MORNING STARS! OBVIOUS THERE WAS NO NIGHT AND DARKNESS YET, WHEN THE EARTH, THE ONLY HABITABLE PLANET  WAS CREATED!

    THE SUN AND THE STARS WERE CREATED  IN VERSES 14 to 19!

    NOW READ:

    Isaiah 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.

    THE ABOVE IS CLEAR, THAT GOD IS LIGHT, HE HIMSELF FORMS THE LIGHT, AND HE CREATED DARKNESS!

    SO DARKNESS HAD ITS BEGINNING DEFINITELY BETWEEN GENESIS 1:1, AND 1:2, THEREFORE THROUGH LUCIFER'S REBEL!

    THAT’S REGARDING GENESIS 1:1

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #360023
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 23 2013,05:17)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 22 2013,02:48)
    You are in error in your word use.  Explicit is when it is written in the very words which is clearly not the case.


    From Dictionary.com:

    ex·plic·it
     
    adjective  
    1. fully and clearly expressed or demonstrated; leaving nothing merely implied; unequivocal:

    I didn't see a definition that said, “exact words”.

    And the point is that the earth was already there, formless and void, at the time God said, “Let there be light.”

    You seem to think that God first started to create the earth, then created light, then created the heavens, then created the angels, then came back later and FINISHED the earth – at which time the angels shouted for joy at God COMPLETING the earth He had started so long ago.

    And all I want to know is: DO YOU INDEED BELIEVE THIS FORMULA AS STATED ABOVE?


    Mike,

    The appropriate definition of implicit is:

    Quote
    a :  capable of being understood from something else though unexpressed :

    explicit is equivalent to what dictionary.com wrote.

    Quote
    a :  fully revealed or expressed without vagueness, implication, or ambiguity :  leaving no question as to meaning or intent

    I am fairly sure I used both correctly.

    The old earth and the old heaven were created before light.   They were both created at the same time.  The earth to be where humans would be created and heaven where the and angels would be created.

    I assume you conclude the foundations of earth were the earth that is void and without form even though it was covered by water.

    Now Jeremiah disagrees with you on what being without form and void means.

    Jeremiah 4:23-27

    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void;
    and the heavens, and they had no light.
    24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled,
    and all the hills moved lightly.
    25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man,
    and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
    26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness,
    and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord,
    and by his fierce anger.
    27 For thus hath the Lord said,
    The whole land shall be desolate;
    yet will I not make a full end.

    I plan on looking into this more.

    #360024
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 23 2013,10:46)
    2besee……….That is exactly what he is saying, i think our brother Mike need to visit a psychotherapist  and maybe a little couch chat would help.  :)


    Hmmmm…………..  Let's see, Gene:

    You just said the word “2besee” and the word “Mike”.  And your claim is that you actually ARE your word(s), right?

    Does that mean that you ARE “2besee” and “Mike” now – because you said those words?

    If not, then you should quit while you're behind on this one.  (Oops – I just said “behind”.  Dang it!  That means that I AM a behind because I am my words!  :D )

    #360025
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (carmel @ Oct. 23 2013,13:18)
    ALSO IN GENESIS 1:1 WHEN GOD CREATED HEAVEN AND EARTH, THE WHOLE UNIVERSE WAS IN COMPLETE PURE LIGHT, NOT IN DARKNESS LIKE YOU SAID, SINCE GOD HIMSELF IS THE MOST PURE LIGHT………


    I thought about bringing that up too, Charles.

    God dwells in unapproachable light. Apparently Kerwin thinks that God used to dwell in utter darkness before He created the unapproachable light in which He dwells.

    I don't think that. God is light – not darkness. And I don't think He used to be darkness, and then CHANGED to light when He created light.

    #360026
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 23 2013,16:44)
    I am fairly sure I used both correctly.


    Until you show me that “explicit” means “IN THE SAME EXACT WORDS”, please don't correct me about it, okay?  Because you're telling me I did something wrong…….. which I don't mind if I did in fact do something wrong.  But you're correcting me about things I was right about in the first place.   ???

    I repeat:  It is EXPLICITLY stated in scripture that the earth was already there at the time God said, “Let there be light”.

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 23 2013,16:44)
    Now Jeremiah disagrees with you on what being without form and void means.


    1.  Please explain how Jeremiah's words “disagree” with anything I've said.

    2.  Ask yourself if Jeremiah was talking about the creation of the world, or a time in the future (from his perspective) that God's fierce anger will cause the things he is describing.

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 23 2013,16:44)
    I plan on looking into this more.


    Now there's a good idea.  Next time, how about you do that BEFORE telling me that a writer of scripture “disagrees with me”.  :)

    #360028
    2besee
    Participant

    Mike,
    I can't answer your question because it's irrelevant.
    Can the Father also be the Father??

    Gene, thanks.

    #360029
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    And Kerwin,

    Do me a favor and don't post to me at all until you're ready to begin ANSWERING the points I keep making.  I get tired of making these points, just for you to completely ignore them and keep talking about other things.

    Here is the point from my post to you yesterday:

    The point is that the earth was already there, formless and void, at the time God said, “Let there be light.”

    You seem to think that God first started to create the earth, then created light, then created the heavens, then created the angels, then came back later and FINISHED the earth – at which time the angels shouted for joy at God COMPLETING the earth He had started so long ago.

    And all I want to know is: DO YOU INDEED BELIEVE THIS FORMULA AS STATED ABOVE?

    Please ADDRESS that point before talking to me about other things.

    #360030
    2besee
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 24 2013,12:18)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 23 2013,10:46)
    2besee……….That is exactly what he is saying, i think our brother Mike need to visit a psychotherapist  and maybe a little couch chat would help.  :)


    Hmmmm…………..  Let's see, Gene:

    You just said the word “2besee” and the word “Mike”.  And your claim is that you actually ARE your word(s), right?

    Does that mean that you ARE “2besee” and “Mike” now – because you said those words?

    If not, then you should quit while you're behind on this one.  (Oops – I just said “behind”.  Dang it!  That means that I AM a behind because I am my words!  :D )


    Mike, God is love. So what does that mean to you?

    #360031
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (2besee @ Oct. 23 2013,17:37)
    Mike,
    I can't answer your question because it's irrelevant.
    Can the Father also be the Father??


    No 2B, the Father can't ALSO be the Father.

    When it says, “the Word was with God” – who exactly do you think that God is?  Don't you believe it is the Father God Almighty?

    I do.

    And if the Word was WITH the Father God Almighty, then can the Word also BE the Father God Almighty?

    In other words, can the Father God Almighty be WITH the Father God Almighty?  YES or NO?

    Please don't tell me this point is “irrelevant”. Either ANSWER it, or don't post to me at all.

    #360034
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (2besee @ Oct. 24 2013,05:39)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 24 2013,12:18)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 23 2013,10:46)
    2besee……….That is exactly what he is saying, i think our brother Mike need to visit a psychotherapist  and maybe a little couch chat would help.  :)


    Hmmmm…………..  Let's see, Gene:

    You just said the word “2besee” and the word “Mike”.  And your claim is that you actually ARE your word(s), right?

    Does that mean that you ARE “2besee” and “Mike” now – because you said those words?

    If not, then you should quit while you're behind on this one.  (Oops – I just said “behind”.  Dang it!  That means that I AM a behind because I am my words!  :D )


    Mike, God is love. So what does that mean to you?


    Quote
    Mike, God is love. So what does that mean to you?

    But ;God is almighty;
    God is righteous;
    God is faithful
    God is one
    God is holy
    God is truthful
    God is love
    God is merciful

    2bee; So what does that all mean to you?

    #360038
    2besee
    Participant

    All,

    The same word “IN” (en) is used:

    IN the beginning was the word, the word was with God, and God was IN the word.

    http://biblehub.com/text/john/1-1.htm

    NOT “God was the word” – but, “God was in the word”.
    That might solve alot of problems.

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