John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 14,381 through 14,400 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #359865
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (2besee @ Oct. 20 2013,21:13)
    Mike,
    You consist of your mind, and your spirit, and your word, and your flesh. All of those things are a part of you. They are not something else.


    So I could say, WE are going to the store.”

    And someone could ask, “Who is the 'we' you're talking about?”  

    And I could answer them, “Me and my mind and my spirit and my word and my flesh.”

    Does that really make sense to you, 2B? Has that kind of a conversation ever happened to you in your lifetime?

    #359866
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 20 2013,23:11)
    There is nothing to say the angels were there before heaven and earth were created or before God said let there be light.


    Kerwin,

    Why? Why must you so consistently read what the scriptures say, and then believe the exact opposite? ???

    Are you saying that God created MOST OF the earth, then said, “Let there be light”, then created the angels, and THEN came back later to apply the “capstone” to the earth He had created eons earlier? And it was only this final act that the angels applauded?

    #359867
    kerwin
    Participant

    Jammin,

    Quote
    ^ Harris, Murray J. ;Jesus as God: The New Testament Use of Theos in Reference to Jesus, 1992. <Murray J. Harris. Baker Books, pub. SBN 0801021952, p. 69

    Quote
    “[It] is clear that in the translation “the Word was God,” the term God is being used to denote his nature or essence, and not his person. But in normal English usage “God” is a proper noun, referring to the person of the Father or corporately to the three persons of the Godhead. Moreover, “the Word was God” suggests that “the Word” and “God” are convertible terms, that the proposition is reciprocating. But the Word is neither the Father nor the Trinity… The rendering cannot stand without explanation.”

    So it does not say Jesus is the Father or, as Trinitarian definition of God would have it, Jesus is the 3 in 1 God.  Interpretating it as you like requires explanation.

    Quote
    im not putting my belief to those men. what im saying is they KNOW what they are doing. they translated greek to english not will all small letters but those words need capitalization, they capitalize the letter.

    So your words say that you do not put your faith in them but the spirit of your words says otherwise as you do not want them questioned.    Those sure sounds like you have put your faith in them because you believe they are far above you.

    I can say that if their only reason for capitalizing the word in some places and not in other is because there chosen doctrine leads them to then you are taking their word that they follow the right teaching.  Do you follow all these men say even as they dispute with one another?

    Quote
    you told me that God is an aspect of the WORD.
    can you read that in john 1.1?:

    If you truly lack the ability to follow my reasoning as you seem to be acting like then perhaps you also fail to comprehend that being divine is an aspect of God.  I do not believe either are the case.  

    Quote
    you are telling me lies Kerwin. you are the one who wants doctrine from men.you are preaching doctrines from men and not from God.

    You are the one that is teaching to take the words of men not I.  Instead I try to reason with you out of Scripture.

    Note: reference in relation to and quote from Jesus as God: The New Testament Use of Theos in Reference to Jesus.

    #359869
    2besee
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 22 2013,11:38)

    Quote (2besee @ Oct. 20 2013,21:13)
    Mike,
    You consist of your mind, and your spirit, and your word, and your flesh. All of those things are a part of you. They are not something else.


    So I could say, WE are going to the store.”

    And someone could ask, “Who is the 'we' you're talking about?”  

    And I could answer them, “Me and my mind and my spirit and my word and my flesh.”

    Does that really make sense to you, 2B?  Has that kind of a conversation ever happened to you in your lifetime?


    Mike,
    We are not God. We were made in God's image. God was not made in OUR image. Why insist on having God just like us?

    Here's the thing: God is so great that we will never be able to fully comprehend Him. So, why question why God did this and that, as if to compare him to men?

    God is not a man.

    #359874
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 21 2013,12:46)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 21 2013,10:44)

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 20 2013,17:22)

    Rev 19:13

    …….and his name is called The Word of God.


    Marty, WHOSE name is called “The Word of God” in that verse?


    Hi Mike:

    Listen to this video, and pay close attention to what it means when a scripture such as this one states “his name is called” or “his name shall be called” or the one in Isaiah which states “his name shall be called: “wonderful, counselor, prince of peace, mighty God.


    I started to watch it, but then tested what he said against Genesis 2:19-20, where Adam gave “names” (shem) to all of the animals.

    Does this guy think that Adam gave each animal its “character”?

    Anyway, is that your answer?  That the “character” of the rider of the white horse is “word of God”?

    Deeper and deeper into the rabbit hole we go, huh?

    BTW, how does this apply to the GREEK language, which is the language of the verse we're talking about?  Look at Luke 1:61 – for one example.  Were they telling Elizabeth that none of her relatives bear the “character” of “John”?

    What is the “character” of “John”?  No, Marty.  Instead they used the word “name” just as we would use it if we told someone that no one in their family had the “name Mike” – or whatever.  We would simply be talking about a regular old “name”, and not the “character” of any particular person.

    It is the same in Luke 1:61 and Genesis 2:19-20.

    Which means there is no reason to think it is any different in Revelation 19:13.

    So please just DIRECTLY answer the question I asked.

    #359876
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 22 2013,04:44)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 20 2013,23:11)
    There is nothing to say the angels were there before heaven and earth were created or before God said let there be light.


    Kerwin,

    Why?  Why must you so consistently read what the scriptures say, and then believe the exact opposite?   ???

    Are you saying that God created MOST OF the earth, then said, “Let there be light”, then created the angels, and THEN came back later to apply the “capstone” to the earth He had created eons earlier?  And it was only this final act that the angels applauded?


    Mike,

    In the beginning God created both the heavens and the earth.  There were no angels before the heavens were created. When God set the final capstone of the foundation the angels celebrated.  So we know that between the time the heavens were created and the time the capstone of the foundations of earth was set in place that the angels were created.  At the earliest they celebrated when earth is declared “form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

    You seem to believe in this place that was not created and existed before either heaven or earth was created.  A place that existed when darkness is all that existed as light was not created.  In this place that you choose to believe in but that is not mentioned in Scripture God created the creature that would become Jesus out of his ghostly body so Jesus is body of God's body.

    #359879
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 21 2013,17:19)
    Mike,

    In the beginning God created both the heavens and the earth. There were no angels before the heavens were created.


    Kerwin,

    This is what I believe – as it is explicitly taught in scripture:

    The heavens and the earth were existing when God said, “Let there be light”. Angels were also existing at that time, since they shouted for joy when God made the earth.

    The things you say have no support from any scripture, and I therefore have no reason to believe them, or to spend any more of my time trying to “refute” that which isn't even taught in the first place.

    (The same goes for your claim that spirits can't be touched and can't eat. Why should I spend time “refuting” that which isn't taught in the first place? ??? )

    So, believe what you want about these things. But if you try to teach them here, I will be there to point out to your “students” that you are teaching things that aren't actually taught in any scripture.

    #359880
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (2besee @ Oct. 21 2013,17:00)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 22 2013,11:38)

    Quote (2besee @ Oct. 20 2013,21:13)
    Mike,
    You consist of your mind, and your spirit, and your word, and your flesh. All of those things are a part of you. They are not something else.

    Man was made in God's IMAGE.
    The only thing different was the flesh body.
    Correct?


    So I could say, WE are going to the store.”

    And someone could ask, “Who is the 'we' you're talking about?”  

    And I could answer them, “Me and my mind and my spirit and my word and my flesh.”

    Does that really make sense to you, 2B?  Has that kind of a conversation ever happened to you in your lifetime?


    Mike,
    We are not God.

    Why insist on having God just like us?

    God is not a man.


    :)  You started off trying to prove your point by comparing men to God.  Then when I shot down your point, you flip-flopped on me and scolded ME for comparing men to God.  

    I find that funny.  :)

    #359881
    terraricca
    Participant

    Marty

    Quote

    Quote
    Gen 3:14 So the Lord God said to the serpent:

    “Because you have done this,
    You are cursed more than all cattle,
    And more than every beast of the field;
    On your belly you shall go,
    And you shall eat dust
    All the days of your life.
    15 And I will put enmity
    Between you and the woman,
    And between your seed and her Seed;
    He shall bruise your head,
    And you shall bruise His heel.”

    Ge 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and ABOVE every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

    WHY WAS THE SERPENT CURSED “ABOVE ” AND NOT UNDER ??? or among ; this would place him just below men ;right ??

    #359884
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (2besee @ Oct. 22 2013,03:26)

    Quote

    2bee
    scriptures do not say THAT THE SON HIS THE
    HOLY SPIRIT ONLY MEN DO INTERPRET IT
    THAT WAY ;SO I WILL STICK TO THE
    SCRIPTURES THE WORD OF GOD ,NOT THE
    WORD OF MEN

    Terrarica, wrong. Shepherd was canon. They took it out at the council of nicea. But the earliest church read it out loud in church. That is a fact. Nobody had a problem with its christology!


    2bee

    Quote
    Terrarica, wrong. Shepherd was canon. They took it out at the council of nicea. But the earliest church read it out loud in church. That is a fact. Nobody had a problem with its christology!

    there were many scriptures that were in the canon,and that are no longer in it for very good reasons ,but you cannot see those reasons ,so it is stalemate ,according to our personal view in scriptures

    #359900
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 22 2013,01:11)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 21 2013,23:08)
    kerwin,

    about the translation the Word was divine, you can check what moffat said. he  said the Word was divine.

    he did not say the word but Word. it is capital W. do you know the reason behind it why they translated is as Word ant not word?? bec that is a title or name of Christ.
    rev 19.13

    now let me give a version of james moffat
    here is what he said
    john 1.1

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    you know what, you need to study hard.
    im sorry boy but your belief cant be supported by the bible. you should make your own


    Jamminin……….ALL original Greek text are in Capitals of upper case lettering, the lower case Greek did not start until around 900 AD. Check it out. So all lettering in the original Greek was upper case. So who gave the right for the change (the Trinitarian) translators and Preexistence-rs did> They slant scriptures to meet their own “beliefs” by using Upper case and Lower case texts, that was not the case originally.

    peace and love………………….gene


    it does not matter. what im trying to say here is those translators know what they are doing. can you read me an english bible that is all capital letters? or all small letters?

    why do translators said God for the father and not god|?

    do you know the reason behind it?

    kerwin does not know all these things.
    even greek, he does not know how to use that language.

    #359901
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 22 2013,09:44)
    Jammin,

    Quote
    ^ Harris, Murray J. ;Jesus as God: The New Testament Use of Theos in Reference to Jesus, 1992. <Murray J. Harris. Baker Books, pub. SBN 0801021952, p. 69

    Quote
    “[It] is clear that in the translation “the Word was God,” the term God is being used to denote his nature or essence, and not his person. But in normal English usage “God” is a proper noun, referring to the person of the Father or corporately to the three persons of the Godhead. Moreover, “the Word was God” suggests that “the Word” and “God” are convertible terms, that the proposition is reciprocating. But the Word is neither the Father nor the Trinity… The rendering cannot stand without explanation.”

    So it does not say Jesus is the Father or, as Trinitarian definition of God would have it, Jesus is the 3 in 1 God.  Interpretating it as you like requires explanation.

    Quote
    im not putting my belief to those men. what im saying is they KNOW what they are doing. they translated greek to english not will all small letters but those words need capitalization, they capitalize the letter.

    So your words say that you do not put your faith in them but the spirit of your words says otherwise as you do not want them questioned.    Those sure sounds like you have put your faith in them because you believe they are far above you.

    I can say that if their only reason for capitalizing the word in some places and not in other is because there chosen doctrine leads them to then you are taking their word that they follow the right teaching.  Do you follow all these men say even as they dispute with one another?

    Quote
    you told me that God is an aspect of the WORD.
    can you read that in john 1.1?:

    If you truly lack the ability to follow my reasoning as you seem to be acting like then perhaps you also fail to comprehend that being divine is an aspect of God.  I do not believe either are the case.  

    Quote
    you are telling me lies Kerwin. you are the one who wants doctrine from men.you are preaching doctrines from men and not from God.

    You are the one that is teaching to take the words of men not I.  Instead I try to reason with you out of Scripture.

    Note: reference in relation to and quote from Jesus as God: The New Testament Use of Theos in Reference to Jesus.


    you did not give me any single version in greek about john 1.1
    where can you read in greek that God is an aspect of the word?

    do you know the difference between word and Word?
    you qouted moffat buy he translated john 1.1 as Word and not word.

    you should know first the meaning of that verse before posting it here.

    you know what you are really a false teacher. you said before he wil be called the Word of God in rev 19.13 but no version would say that/ you are just making your own version.

    your statement about rev 19.13 and john 1.1 tells us that you are a false teacher.

    #359904
    2besee
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 22 2013,12:40)

    Quote (2besee @ Oct. 21 2013,17:00)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 22 2013,11:38)

    Quote (2besee @ Oct. 20 2013,21:13)
    Mike,
    You consist of your mind, and your spirit, and your word, and your flesh. All of those things are a part of you. They are not something else.

    Man was made in God's IMAGE.
    The only thing different was the flesh body.
    Correct?


    So I could say, WE are going to the store.”

    And someone could ask, “Who is the 'we' you're talking about?”  

    And I could answer them, “Me and my mind and my spirit and my word and my flesh.”

    Does that really make sense to you, 2B?  Has that kind of a conversation ever happened to you in your lifetime?


    Mike,
    We are not God.

    Why insist on having God just like us?

    God is not a man.


    :)  You started off trying to prove your point by comparing men to God.  Then when I shot down your point, you flip-flopped on me and scolded ME for comparing men to God.  

    I find that funny.  :)


    Mike,

    Made in God's image and likeness:

    We man have thoughts. God has thoughts ( 1 Corinthian 2:11)
    We man have word. God is word (John 1:1)
    We man have love. God is love (1 John 4:8)
    We man have spirit. God is spirit (John 4:24)

    Man was made in the likeness of God, the only difference : is the flesh.

    I ask you this:
    Is Mike's 'mind', and Mike's 'word', and Mike's 'spirit' other separate beings – or is Mike “one”?

    HEAR O ISRAEL, THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE.

    #359905
    2besee
    Participant

    Terraricca,
    The shepherd of hermas was called canon by the early church fathers from Justin Martyr to Origin; was read in the earliest church out loud as canon, and there is nothing anywhere to say they disagreed with it's christology (that the Holy Spirit was the Son of God in eternity).
    So No, Hermas was not like other writings which were taken out.
    But that's just my view (not only mine but it's making a come back today “spirit christology” – google it).

    You don't have to agree.

    #359906
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 22 2013,05:33)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 21 2013,17:19)
    Mike,

    In the beginning God created both the heavens and the earth.  There were no angels before the heavens were created.


    Kerwin,

    This is what I believe – as it is explicitly taught in scripture:

    The heavens and the earth were existing when God said, “Let there be light”.  Angels were also existing at that time, since they shouted for joy when God made the earth.

    The things you say have no support from any scripture, and I therefore have no reason to believe them, or to spend any more of my time trying to “refute” that which isn't even taught in the first place.

    (The same goes for your claim that spirits can't be touched and can't eat.  Why should I spend time “refuting” that which isn't taught in the first place?  ??? )

    So, believe what you want about these things.  But if you try to teach them here, I will be there to point out to your “students” that you are teaching things that aren't actually taught in any scripture.


    Mike,

    Quote
    The heavens and the earth were existing when God said, “Let there be light”.  

    What do you think the heavens are?  They are not the skies not the darkness above as that had not yet been created until the angels shouted is Job 38:11 is in chronicle order.  So what bears that label.

    Quote
    When I made the cloud the garment thereof
    and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it and …

    Quote
    Angels were also existing at that time, since they shouted for joy when God made the earth.

    Scripture does not explicitly or implicitly say the angels were existing when the earth was made. what the AKJV does say, corrected for punctuation, is.

    Quote
    who laid the corner stone thereof when the morning stars sang together,
    and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

    The corner stone is another name for cap stone in the building since the capstone happens to be a cornerstone. When the second temple was built the people celebrated when it was laid to finish of the foundations of the temple.

    Quote
    This is what I believe – as it is explicitly taught in scripture:

    You are in error in your word use.  Explicit is when it is written in the very words which is clearly not the case.  Implicit is when is is written in the ideas the words express and not clearly in the words.

    I have already pointed out that your teaching are neither explicit or implicitly.

    Quote

    (The same goes for your claim that spirits can't be touched and can't eat.  Why should I spend time “refuting” that which isn't taught in the first place?  ??? )

    That merely means you are unable to address my point but choose not to believe it either.   The last you chose to address it you took part of the scene and blanked out the rest that you could not see as relevant.  That is like playing a game of chess and only watching one part of the board.

    Note: we are discussing this last item on another thread that loads faster.

    #359915
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (2besee @ Oct. 22 2013,14:41)
    Terraricca,
    The shepherd of hermas was called canon by the early church fathers from Justin Martyr to Origin; was read in the earliest church out loud as canon, and there is nothing anywhere to say they disagreed with it's christology (that the Holy Spirit was the Son of God in eternity).
    So No, Hermas was not like other writings which were taken out.
    But that's just my view (not only mine but it's making a come back  today “spirit christology” –  google it).

    You don't have to agree.


    2bee

    I do not agree ;those days (second and third century)are the days of apostasy settings,many were fighting the heresies,should read the history of it ;that is were the torture Origin,and many others ,divisions between teachers ,this was the prep time for Constantine the first ,

    scriptures do not teach that Christ his the holy spirit ,those are men made conclusions,but you can believe anything you want we have free will to chose that is what it is all about when Christ says ;

    Jn 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
    Jn 3:20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
    Jn 3:21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”

    #359936
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 22 2013,10:15)

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 21 2013,12:46)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 21 2013,10:44)

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 20 2013,17:22)

    Rev 19:13

    …….and his name is called The Word of God.


    Marty, WHOSE name is called “The Word of God” in that verse?


    Hi Mike:

    Listen to this video, and pay close attention to what it means when a scripture such as this one states “his name is called” or “his name shall be called” or the one in Isaiah which states “his name shall be called: “wonderful, counselor, prince of peace, mighty God.


    I started to watch it, but then tested what he said against Genesis 2:19-20, where Adam gave “names” (shem) to all of the animals.

    Does this guy think that Adam gave each animal its “character”?

    Anyway, is that your answer?  That the “character” of the rider of the white horse is “word of God”?

    Deeper and deeper into the rabbit hole we go, huh?

    BTW, how does this apply to the GREEK language, which is the language of the verse we're talking about?  Look at Luke 1:61 – for one example.  Were they telling Elizabeth that none of her relatives bear the “character” of “John”?

    What is the “character” of “John”?  No, Marty.  Instead they used the word “name” just as we would use it if we told someone that no one in their family had the “name Mike” – or whatever.  We would simply be talking about a regular old “name”, and not the “character” of any particular person.

    It is the same in Luke 1:61 and Genesis 2:19-20.

    Which means there is no reason to think it is any different in Revelation 19:13.

    So please just DIRECTLY answer the question I asked.


    Wow, Mike:

    You won't listen to instruction, and so, how are you ever going to understand the truth.

    I don't know about the animals to which Adam gave names, but I am relatively sure that it had to do with their function or something on that order.  I will study this.

    But the name “John” means “the Lord is gracious”, and the name “Jesus” means “YHWH  is salvation”, and Jesus is his name, but the scripture states: “his name is called”, not “his name is”.  Do you not see the difference.

    But yes, his character is the “Word of God” since he obeyed God's Word without sin even unto death on the cross, and by his obedience his spirit was formed, and is now “the express image of God's person”.  He was made “a life giving spirit”, and so, he said: “I am the way, the truth and the life, and no man can come to the Father except through me”.  It is by this through this Word, and by his blood, that we also can overcome sin and have eternal life.

    And it is through this Word that he will judge the quick(living) and the dead.

    Quote

    Act 10:42

    And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

    Act 10:43

    To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

    Quote

    Jhn 12:46

    I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

    Jhn 12:47

    And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

    Jhn 12:48

    He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

    Jhn 12:49

    For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

    Jhn 12:50

    And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

    Quote

    Hbr 5:7

    Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

    Hbr 5:8

    Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

    Hbr 5:9

    And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #359941
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 22 2013,13:15)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 22 2013,09:44)
    Jammin,

    Quote
    ^ Harris, Murray J. ;Jesus as God: The New Testament Use of Theos in Reference to Jesus, 1992. <Murray J. Harris. Baker Books, pub. SBN 0801021952, p. 69

    Quote
    “[It] is clear that in the translation “the Word was God,” the term God is being used to denote his nature or essence, and not his person. But in normal English usage “God” is a proper noun, referring to the person of the Father or corporately to the three persons of the Godhead. Moreover, “the Word was God” suggests that “the Word” and “God” are convertible terms, that the proposition is reciprocating. But the Word is neither the Father nor the Trinity… The rendering cannot stand without explanation.”

    So it does not say Jesus is the Father or, as Trinitarian definition of God would have it, Jesus is the 3 in 1 God.  Interpretating it as you like requires explanation.

    Quote
    im not putting my belief to those men. what im saying is they KNOW what they are doing. they translated greek to english not will all small letters but those words need capitalization, they capitalize the letter.

    So your words say that you do not put your faith in them but the spirit of your words says otherwise as you do not want them questioned.    Those sure sounds like you have put your faith in them because you believe they are far above you.

    I can say that if their only reason for capitalizing the word in some places and not in other is because there chosen doctrine leads them to then you are taking their word that they follow the right teaching.  Do you follow all these men say even as they dispute with one another?

    Quote
    you told me that God is an aspect of the WORD.
    can you read that in john 1.1?:

    If you truly lack the ability to follow my reasoning as you seem to be acting like then perhaps you also fail to comprehend that being divine is an aspect of God.  I do not believe either are the case.  

    Quote
    you are telling me lies Kerwin. you are the one who wants doctrine from men.you are preaching doctrines from men and not from God.

    You are the one that is teaching to take the words of men not I.  Instead I try to reason with you out of Scripture.

    Note: reference in relation to and quote from Jesus as God: The New Testament Use of Theos in Reference to Jesus.


    you did not give me any single version in greek about john 1.1
    where can you read in greek that God is an aspect of the word?

    do you know the difference between word and Word?
    you qouted moffat buy he translated john 1.1 as Word and not word.

    you should know first the meaning of that verse before posting it here.

    you know what you are really a false teacher. you said before he wil be called the Word of God in rev 19.13 but no version would say that/ you are just making your own version.

    your statement about rev 19.13 and john 1.1 tells us that you are a false teacher.


    Jammin,

    You have not given me no scriptures that state the messiah bore the name word before he was made in his mother's womb.

    Another way of saying that the Word like God is to say the Word is divine which is why the Koine Greek words can be translated either way.  

    Like is probably a better word than aspect in English as God and theos are not complete synonyms in that theos can mean “his counsels, interests, things due to him” and God does not.   The word is equivalent to his counsels.

    If you are following this then you should figure out that I don't mean that God is a part of his word even though I did use the wrong English word.

    Note: theos
    Note: I have formerly used the word aspect to express an idea works fine in Koine Greek but not in English.  I believe like is the correct English word.

    #359949
    terraricca
    Participant

    Marty

    Quote
    But yes, his character is the “Word of God”

    just curious how is that that “the word of God ” HIS THE CHARACTER OF JESUS “ JUST BECAUSE HE OBEY HIS FATHER ???

    IS THIS NOT MORE LIKE “HE WAS HUMBLE IN CHARACTER ” AND FOR THAT REASON HE WAS OBEDIENT TO HIS FATHER AND HE LOVED HIS FATHER ,

    #359952
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (2besee @ Oct. 22 2013,02:28)
    I ask you this:
    Is Mike's 'mind', and Mike's 'word', and Mike's 'spirit' other separate beings – or is Mike “one”?


    And I believe I answered it already with an analogy about going to the store.

    Would anyone ever say, “2B went to the market, and his word went WITH him.” ?

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