John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 14,361 through 14,380 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #359824
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (2besee @ Oct. 20 2013,16:55)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 21 2013,11:47)

    Quote (2besee @ Oct. 20 2013,16:10)
    But you know what I believe, Mike. And I know what you believe.


    Who do you think the “US” is in Gen 1:26, 2B?  I wonder who Irenaeus thought the “US” was.


    God and his spirit, and his spoken word.


    Your use of the word “AND” tells us that the Holy Spirit and the Word are not actually God Himself. (Otherwise you couldn't say “God AND so and so……”)

    #359825
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 20 2013,17:22)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 21 2013,09:38)

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 20 2013,14:19)
    “Logos” by definition is not a person, but are the sayings of God which embody God's plan for humanity and reveal to humanity His Character.


    The same as in English, “word” is by definition not normally a person.  But if a spokesman is called by the title “the word of the king”, it does refer to a person.

    In Revelation, Jesus is called “the Word of God”.  Does “logos” refer to a person in that verse?


    No, Mike:

    The Word of God says about Jesus in Revelation 19 that “his name shall be called “the Word of God”, and not that “he is the Word of God”, and that is the problem with you is that you keep adding a little twist here and there.  This is the scripture:

    Quote

    Rev 19:13

    And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    But even so, he is not called this his ministry.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty, WHOSE name is called “The Word of God” in that verse?

    #359826
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 21 2013,04:23)
    Hi Pierre:

    I have looked at this scripture, and let us look at it again:

    Quote
    Hbr 1:1

    God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,  

    Hbr 1:2

    Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    It states “by whom He(God) has made the worlds, and the “by whom” refers to the Son that He (God has spoken to humanity in these last days”)

    God did not speak to humanity through Jesus until he came in His ministry, but God created everything that He created knowing that He would send Jesus forth into the world at this time to fulfill his purpose for this world and for humanity, and that is what is meant that God created every thing that he created every thing that he created by him and for him.  God knew of this event from the beginning.  Jesus was foreordained.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty

    if the WORD was a word or words then we would not called it whom ,but “it” or “thing ” or “orders” or “wills” or “desires” but definitely NOT A WHOM ,WHAT IT ALWAYS REFERS TO A PERSON

    #359832
    2besee
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 21 2013,12:43)

    Quote (2besee @ Oct. 20 2013,16:55)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 21 2013,11:47)

    Quote (2besee @ Oct. 20 2013,16:10)
    But you know what I believe, Mike. And I know what you believe.


    Who do you think the “US” is in Gen 1:26, 2B?  I wonder who Irenaeus thought the “US” was.


    God and his spirit, and his spoken word.


    Your use of the word “AND” tells us that the Holy Spirit and the Word are not actually God Himself.  (Otherwise you couldn't say “God AND so and so……”)


    Mike,
    You consist of your mind, and your spirit, and your word, and your flesh. All of those things are a part of you. They are not something else.
    If they are something else, then who are they?

    Man was made in God's IMAGE.
    The only thing different was the flesh body.
    Correct?

    #359836
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 20 2013,21:27)
    Kerwin,

    I'm not sure anymore what we're even talking about.  I thought I was showing you that the earth was already there when God said, “Let there be light”, and that the angels must have also been there since they shouted for joy when God laid the foundations of the earth.

    I can't make heads or tails out of your recent comments concerning this topic.  But I haven't seen anything in your posts that would change my mind – or change the fact that my understanding is clearly spelled out in the scriptures.


    Mike,

    The angels were celebrating the setting of the capstone, which also a cornerstone, of the foundation just as the Jews celebrated the laying of the capstone of the foundation of the second temple. That is why they shouted and sang when it was laid into place.

    There is nothing to say the angels were there before heaven and earth were created or before God said let there be light.

    #359837
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 20 2013,22:12)
    kerwin

    Quote
    Conversely, Thomas B. Talbott points to “God is Love” (1 John 4:8 and 1 John 4:16), meaning not merely that God “happens to love,” but rather that love is an essential aspect of God. Talbott uses this to defend Universalism because God must be loving in all God's acts, precluding eternal damnation. 2

    This mere man agrees with me about what the statement “God is love” means.  I used the scriptural pattern from it and on the statement “the word was God” and then voiced my conclusion that God is an aspect of the word.

    the expression that “GOD IS LOVE ” MEANS ACCORDING TO MY UNDERSTANDING IN THE SCRIPTURES ;THAT ALL WHAT GOD DOES IS DONE OUT OF LOVE FOR THE BEINGS HE HAS CREATED ,AND NOT FOR THEIR DOOM,LOVE BEING ONLY ONE OF GOD'S QUALITIES,RIGHTEOUSNESS BEING ANOTHER ONE ,SO IS FAITHFUL AND MANY MORE ,


    T,

    Even when God judges a person as doomed to destruction it is done out of love.

    #359838
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 21 2013,11:13)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 20 2013,22:12)
    kerwin

    Quote
    Conversely, Thomas B. Talbott points to “God is Love” (1 John 4:8 and 1 John 4:16), meaning not merely that God “happens to love,” but rather that love is an essential aspect of God. Talbott uses this to defend Universalism because God must be loving in all God's acts, precluding eternal damnation. 2

    This mere man agrees with me about what the statement “God is love” means.  I used the scriptural pattern from it and on the statement “the word was God” and then voiced my conclusion that God is an aspect of the word.

    the expression that “GOD IS LOVE ” MEANS ACCORDING TO MY UNDERSTANDING IN THE SCRIPTURES ;THAT ALL WHAT GOD DOES IS DONE OUT OF LOVE FOR THE BEINGS HE HAS CREATED ,AND NOT FOR THEIR DOOM,LOVE BEING ONLY ONE OF GOD'S QUALITIES,RIGHTEOUSNESS BEING ANOTHER ONE ,SO IS FAITHFUL AND MANY MORE ,


    T,

    Even when God judges a person as doomed to destruction it is done out of love.


    K

    but you have to add justice and righteousness as well

    #359841
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 21 2013,02:18)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 20 2013,12:16)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 20 2013,01:41)
    Jammin,

    Quote
    what??? GOD is an aspect of the WORD? where did you get that??
    that is not written in greek bible.
    make your own bible and revised john 1.1 LOL

    I obtained it in the way I said I did.

    Since you missed it, I will go over it in more detail.

    1 John 4:8 & 16 both state “God is love” but it is not to be understood literal as you in part understand the statement “the word is God”.  Instead is declaring love is an aspect of God.

    Applying  the same scriptural pattern obtained from these two passages to the clause the word is God we come to understand that God is an aspect of his word.

    To test this I asked is God an aspect of his word and the answer is yes as it is his word.


    then give me a greek bible that says in john 1.1 that God is an aspect of the Word.

    ill give you 1million year to find one


    Jammin,

    I pointed out how the AKJV does and you chose to disbelieve without giving a logical reason, or any reason at all.

    But you have already revealed you choose to put your faith in mere men and what and there translations and interpretations.  Let us point to one these mere men that is a Trinitarian and with whose teachings I disagree.

    His credentials by the education establishment's criteria.

    Quote
    Thomas Talbott is Professor Emeritus of Philosophy at Willamette University, Salem, Oregon. He is best known for his advocacy of Trinitarian Universalism. 1

    His claim about the statement God is love.

    Quote
    Conversely, Thomas B. Talbott points to “God is Love” (1 John 4:8 and 1 John 4:16), meaning not merely that God “happens to love,” but rather that love is an essential aspect of God. Talbott uses this to defend Universalism because God must be loving in all God's acts, precluding eternal damnation. 2

    This mere man agrees with me about what the statement “God is love” means.  I used the scriptural pattern from it and on the statement “the word was God” and then voiced my conclusion that God is an aspect of the word.

    Quote
    Translations by James Moffatt, Hugh J. Schonfield and Edgar Goodspeed render part of the verse as “…and the Word was divine.”3

    Quote
    James Moffatt (1870-1944) was a theologian and graduate of Glasgow University. Moffatt trained at the Free Church College, Glasgow, and was a practising minister before becoming Professor of Greek and New Testament Exegesis at Mansfield College, Oxford in 1911. 4

    Quote
    Hugh Joseph Schonfield (London, 17 May 1901 – January 24, 1988, London) was a British Bible scholar specializing in the New Testament and the early development of the Christian religion and church. 5

    1) Thomas Talbott
    2) Talbott quote is from Fire in  the Bones blog
    3) Quote about John 1:1 translations.
    4) James Moffatt
    5) Hugh J. Schonfield


    im not putting my belief to those men. what im saying is they KNOW what they are doing. they translated greek to english not will all small letters but those words need capitalization, they capitalize the letter.

    you told me that you cant find big letters in greek. can you give me english bible that is written in all small letters?

    you told me that God is an aspect of the WORD.
    can you read that in john 1.1?:

    you are telling me lies kerwin. you are the one who wants doctrine from men.you are preaching doctrines from men and not from God.

    you should make your own bible so that you can support your imagination. do you understand?

    bible versions will not agree with you. commentaries wont also agree with you.
    the best way for you to support your imagination is you create your own bible.
    that is your only option.

    #359842
    jammin
    Participant

    kerwin,

    about the translation the Word was divine, you can check what moffat said. he said the Word was divine.

    he did not say the word but Word. it is capital W. do you know the reason behind it why they translated is as Word ant not word?? bec that is a title or name of Christ.
    rev 19.13

    now let me give a version of james moffat
    here is what he said
    john 1.1

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    you know what, you need to study hard.
    im sorry boy but your belief cant be supported by the bible. you should make your own

    #359843
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 21 2013,23:08)
    kerwin,

    about the translation the Word was divine, you can check what moffat said. he  said the Word was divine.

    he did not say the word but Word. it is capital W. do you know the reason behind it why they translated is as Word ant not word?? bec that is a title or name of Christ.
    rev 19.13

    now let me give a version of james moffat
    here is what he said
    john 1.1

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    you know what, you need to study hard.
    im sorry boy but your belief cant be supported by the bible. you should make your own


    Jamminin……….ALL original Greek text are in Capitals of upper case lettering, the lower case Greek did not start until around 900 AD. Check it out. So all lettering in the original Greek was upper case. So who gave the right for the change (the Trinitarian) translators and Preexistence-rs did> They slant scriptures to meet their own “beliefs” by using Upper case and Lower case texts, that was not the case originally.

    peace and love………………….gene

    #359849
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 21 2013,11:12)

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 21 2013,04:23)
    Hi Pierre:

    I have looked at this scripture, and let us look at it again:

    Quote
    Hbr 1:1

    God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,  

    Hbr 1:2

    Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    It states “by whom He(God) has made the worlds, and the “by whom” refers to the Son that He (God has spoken to humanity in these last days”)

    God did not speak to humanity through Jesus until he came in His ministry, but God created everything that He created knowing that He would send Jesus forth into the world at this time to fulfill his purpose for this world and for humanity, and that is what is meant that God created every thing that he created every thing that he created by him and for him.  God knew of this event from the beginning.  Jesus was foreordained.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty

    if the WORD was a word or words then we would not called it whom ,but “it” or “thing ” or “orders” or “wills” or “desires” but definitely NOT A WHOM ,WHAT IT ALWAYS REFERS TO A PERSON


    The Word in John 1 pertains to Jesus, but he was foreordained, and he did not exist as a sentient person until he was born into this world of the virgin Mary, and God did not speak to humanity through him until his ministry on earth.

    If you will check the OT tell me how many scriptures either prophetic or symbolic relate to his coming.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #359850
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 21 2013,10:44)

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 20 2013,17:22)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 21 2013,09:38)

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 20 2013,14:19)
    “Logos” by definition is not a person, but are the sayings of God which embody God's plan for humanity and reveal to humanity His Character.


    The same as in English, “word” is by definition not normally a person.  But if a spokesman is called by the title “the word of the king”, it does refer to a person.

    In Revelation, Jesus is called “the Word of God”.  Does “logos” refer to a person in that verse?


    No, Mike:

    The Word of God says about Jesus in Revelation 19 that “his name shall be called “the Word of God”, and not that “he is the Word of God”, and that is the problem with you is that you keep adding a little twist here and there.  This is the scripture:

    Quote

    Rev 19:13

    And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    But even so, he is not called this his ministry.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty, WHOSE name is called “The Word of God” in that verse?


    Hi Mike:

    Listen to this video, and pay close attention to what it means when a scripture such as this one states “his name is called” or “his name shall be called” or the one in Isaiah which states “his name shall be called: “wonderful, counselor, prince of peace, mighty God.

    https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….=942767

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #359855
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 22 2013,00:31)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 21 2013,11:12)

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 21 2013,04:23)
    Hi Pierre:

    I have looked at this scripture, and let us look at it again:

    Quote
    Hbr 1:1

    God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,  

    Hbr 1:2

    Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    It states “by whom He(God) has made the worlds, and the “by whom” refers to the Son that He (God has spoken to humanity in these last days”)

    God did not speak to humanity through Jesus until he came in His ministry, but God created everything that He created knowing that He would send Jesus forth into the world at this time to fulfill his purpose for this world and for humanity, and that is what is meant that God created every thing that he created every thing that he created by him and for him.  God knew of this event from the beginning.  Jesus was foreordained.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty

    if the WORD was a word or words then we would not called it whom ,but “it” or “thing ” or “orders” or “wills” or “desires” but definitely NOT A WHOM ,WHAT IT ALWAYS REFERS TO A PERSON


    The Word in John 1 pertains to Jesus, but he was foreordained, and he did not exist as a sentient person until he was born into this world of the virgin Mary, and God did not speak to humanity through him until his ministry on earth.

    If you will check the OT tell me how many scriptures either prophetic or symbolic relate to his coming.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty

    Ge 2:15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.

    Mt 21:33 “Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and went away on a journey.
    Mt 21:34 When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.
    Mt 21:35 “The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third.
    Mt 21:36 Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way.
    Mt 21:37 Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.
    Mt 21:38 “But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’
    Mt 21:39 So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
    Mt 21:40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”
    Mt 21:41 “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.”
    Mt 21:42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
    “ ‘The stone the builders rejected
    has become the capstone

    Ps 118:19 Open for me the gates of righteousness;
    I will enter and give thanks to the LORD.
    Ps 118:20 This is the gate of the LORD
    through which the righteous may enter.
    Ps 118:21 I will give you thanks, for you answered me;
    you have become my salvation.

    Ps 118:22 The stone the builders rejected
    has become the capstone;
    Ps 118:23 the LORD has done this,
    and it is marvelous in our eyes.
    Ps 118:24 This is the day the LORD has made;
    let us rejoice and be glad in it.

    this is spoken about Christ coming just as Jesus spoke in his parable ,

    if you do not believe the scriptures as they are written ,no one can help you in this life may be in the second resurrection God will ,

    #359856
    2besee
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 22 2013,09:04)
    Mt 21:33 “Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and went away on a journey.
    Mt 21:34 When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.
    Mt 21:35 “The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third.
    Mt 21:36 Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way.
    Mt 21:37 Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.
    Mt 21:38 “But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’
    Mt 21:39 So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
    Mt 21:40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”
    Mt 21:41 “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.”
    Mt 21:42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
    “ ‘The stone the builders rejected
    has become the capstone

    this is spoken about Christ coming just as Jesus spoke in his parable ,

    if you do not believe the scriptures as they are written ,no one can help you in this life may be in the second resurrection God will ,

    The shepherd of hermas parable of the vineyard.

    I shall unfold to you
    the meaning of the similitudes of the field,
    and of all the others that follow, that you
    may make them known to every one.
    Hear now,” he said, “and understand them.
    The field is this world; and the Lord of the
    field is He who created, and perfected, and
    strengthened all things; and the son is the
    Holy Spirit
    ; and the slave is the Son of God;
    and the vines are this people, whom He
    Himself planted; and the stakes are the holy
    angels of the Lord, who keep His people
    together; and the weeds that were plucked
    out of the vineyard are the iniquities of
    God's servants; and the dishes which He sent
    Him from His able are the commandments
    which He gave His people through His Son;
    and the friends and fellow-councillors are
    the holy angels who were first created; and
    the Master's absence from home is the time
    that remains until His appearing.”
    I said to him, “Sir, all these are great, and
    marvellous, and glorious things. Could I,
    therefore,” I continued, “understand them?
    No, nor could any other man, even if
    exceedingly wise. Moreover,” I added,
    “explain to me what I am about to ask you.”
    “Say what you wish,” he replied.
    “Why, sir,” I asked, “is the Son of God in the
    parable in the form of a slave?”

    CHAPTER 6.

    82. “Hear,” he answered: “the Son of God is
    not in the form of a slave, but in great
    power and might.”
    “How so, sir?” I said; “I do not understand.”
    “Because,” he answered, “God planted the
    vineyard, that is to say, He created the
    people, and gave them to His Son; and the
    Son appointed His angels over them to keep
    them; and He Himself purged away their sins,
    having suffered many trials and undergone
    many labours, for no one is able to dig
    without labour and toil.
    He Himself, then, having purged away the
    sins of the people, showed them the paths of
    life by giving them the law which He
    received from His Father. [You see,” he said,
    “that He is the Lord of the people, having
    received all authority from His Father. ] And
    why the Lord took His Son as councillor, and
    the glorious angels, regarding the heirship of
    the slave, listen. The holy, pre-existent Spirit,
    that created every creature, God made to
    dwell in flesh, which He chose. This flesh,
    accordingly, in which the Holy Spirit dwelt,
    was nobly subject to that Spirit, walking
    religiously and chastely, in no respect
    defiling the Spirit; and accordingly, after
    living excellently and purely, and after
    labouring and co-operating with the Spirit,
    and having in everything acted vigorously and
    courageously along with the Holy Spirit, He
    assumed it as a partner with it.

    For this conduct of the flesh pleased Him,
    because it was not defiled on the earth while
    having the Holy Spirit.
    He took, therefore, as fellow-councillors His
    Son and the glorious angels, in order that
    this flesh, which had been subject to the
    body without a fault, might have some place
    of tabernacle, and that it might not appear
    that the reward [of its servitude had been
    lost], for the flesh that has been found
    without spot or defilement, in which the Holy
    Spirit dwelt, [will receive a reward].
    You have now the explanation of this parable
    also.”

    CHAPTER 7.

    83. “I rejoice, sir,” I said, “to hear this
    explanation.”
    “Hear,” again he replied: “Keep this flesh
    pure and stainless, that the Spirit which
    inhabits it may bear witness to it, and your
    flesh may be justified.
    See that the thought never arise in your
    mind that this flesh of yours is corruptible,
    and you misuse it by any act of defilement.
    If you defile your flesh, you will also defile
    the Holy Spirit; and if you defile your flesh
    [and spirit], you will not live.

    “And if any one, sir,” I said, “has been
    hitherto ignorant, before he heard these
    words, how can such man be saved who has
    defiled his flesh?”
    “Respecting former sins of ignorance,” he
    said, “God alone is able to heal them, for to
    Him belongs all power. [But be On your
    guard now, and the all-powerful and
    compassionate God will heal former
    transgressions], if for the time to come you
    defile not your body nor your spirit; for both
    are common, and cannot be defiled, the one
    without the other: keep both therefore pure,
    and you will live unto God”

    #359857
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (2besee @ Oct. 22 2013,02:39)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 22 2013,09:04)
    Mt 21:33 “Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and went away on a journey.
    Mt 21:34 When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.
    Mt 21:35 “The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third.
    Mt 21:36 Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way.
    Mt 21:37 Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.
    Mt 21:38 “But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’
    Mt 21:39 So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
    Mt 21:40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”
    Mt 21:41 “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.”
    Mt 21:42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
    “ ‘The stone the builders rejected
    has become the capstone

    this is spoken about Christ coming just as Jesus spoke in his parable ,

    if you do not believe the scriptures as they are written ,no one can help you in this life may be in the second resurrection God will ,

    The shepherd of hermas parable of the vineyard.

    I shall unfold to you
    the meaning of the similitudes of the field,
    and of all the others that follow, that you
    may make them known to every one.
    Hear now,” he said, “and understand them.
    The field is this world; and the Lord of the
    field is He who created, and perfected, and
    strengthened all things; and the son is the
    Holy Spirit
    ; and the slave is the Son of God;
    and the vines are this people, whom He
    Himself planted; and the stakes are the holy
    angels of the Lord, who keep His people
    together; and the weeds that were plucked
    out of the vineyard are the iniquities of
    God's servants; and the dishes which He sent
    Him from His able are the commandments
    which He gave His people through His Son;
    and the friends and fellow-councillors are
    the holy angels who were first created; and
    the Master's absence from home is the time
    that remains until His appearing.”
    I said to him, “Sir, all these are great, and
    marvellous, and glorious things. Could I,
    therefore,” I continued, “understand them?
    No, nor could any other man, even if
    exceedingly wise. Moreover,” I added,
    “explain to me what I am about to ask you.”
    “Say what you wish,” he replied.
    “Why, sir,” I asked, “is the Son of God in the
    parable in the form of a slave?”

    CHAPTER 6.

    82. “Hear,” he answered: “the Son of God is
    not in the form of a slave, but in great
    power and might.”
    “How so, sir?” I said; “I do not understand.”
    “Because,” he answered, “God planted the
    vineyard, that is to say, He created the
    people, and gave them to His Son; and the
    Son appointed His angels over them to keep
    them; and He Himself purged away their sins,
    having suffered many trials and undergone
    many labours, for no one is able to dig
    without labour and toil.
    He Himself, then, having purged away the
    sins of the people, showed them the paths of
    life by giving them the law which He
    received from His Father. [You see,” he said,
    “that He is the Lord of the people, having
    received all authority from His Father. ] And
    why the Lord took His Son as councillor, and
    the glorious angels, regarding the heirship of
    the slave, listen. The holy, pre-existent Spirit,
    that created every creature, God made to
    dwell in flesh, which He chose. This flesh,
    accordingly, in which the Holy Spirit dwelt,
    was nobly subject to that Spirit, walking
    religiously and chastely, in no respect
    defiling the Spirit; and accordingly, after
    living excellently and purely, and after
    labouring and co-operating with the Spirit,
    and having in everything acted vigorously and
    courageously along with the Holy Spirit, He
    assumed it as a partner with it.

    For this conduct of the flesh pleased Him,
    because it was not defiled on the earth while
    having the Holy Spirit.
    He took, therefore, as fellow-councillors His
    Son and the glorious angels, in order that
    this flesh, which had been subject to the
    body without a fault, might have some place
    of tabernacle, and that it might not appear
    that the reward [of its servitude had been
    lost], for the flesh that has been found
    without spot or defilement, in which the Holy
    Spirit dwelt, [will receive a reward].
    You have now the explanation of this parable
    also.”

    CHAPTER 7.

    83. “I rejoice, sir,” I said, “to hear this
    explanation.”
    “Hear,” again he replied: “Keep this flesh
    pure and stainless, that the Spirit which
    inhabits it may bear witness to it, and your
    flesh may be justified.
    See that the thought never arise in your
    mind that this flesh of yours is corruptible,
    and you misuse it by any act of defilement.
    If you defile your flesh, you will also defile
    the Holy Spirit; and if you defile your flesh
    [and spirit], you will not live.

    “And if any one, sir,” I said, “has been
    hitherto ignorant, before he heard these
    words, how can such man be saved who has
    defiled his flesh?”
    “Respecting former sins of ignorance,” he
    said, “God alone is able to heal them, for to
    Him belongs all power. [But be On your
    guard now, and the all-powerful and
    compassionate God will heal former
    transgressions], if for the time to come you
    defile not your body nor your spirit; for both
    are common, and cannot be defiled, the one
    without the other: keep both therefore pure,
    and you will live unto God”


    2bee

    scriptures do not say THAT THE SON HIS THE HOLY SPIRIT ONLY MEN DO INTERPRET IT THAT WAY ;SO I WILL STICK TO THE SCRIPTURES THE WORD OF GOD ,NOT THE WORD OF MEN

    #359858
    2besee
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 22 2013,09:04)
    Ps 118:19 Open for me the gates of righteousness;
    I will enter and give thanks to the LORD.
    Ps 118:20 This is the gate of the LORD
    through which the righteous may enter.
    Ps 118:21 I will give you thanks, for you answered me;
    you have become my salvation.

    Ps 118:22 The stone the builders rejected
    has become the capstone;
    Ps 118:23 the LORD has done this,
    and it is marvelous in our eyes.
    Ps 118:24 This is the day the LORD has made;
    let us rejoice and be glad in it.

    Shepherd of hermes on the rock and gate.

    “Now, sir,” I continued, “show me why the
    tower was not built upon the ground, but
    upon the rock and upon the gate.”
    “Are you still,” he said, “without sense and
    understanding?
    “I must, sir,” I said, “ask you of all things,
    because I am wholly unable to understand
    them; for all these things are great and
    glorious, and difficult for man to
    understand.” “Listen,” he said:
    “The name of the Son of God is great, and
    cannot be contained, and supports the whole
    world. If, then, the whole creation is
    supported by the Son of God, what think ye
    of those who are called by Him, and bear the
    name of the Son of God, and walk in His
    commandments? do you see what kind of
    persons He supports? Those who bear His
    name with their whole heart. He Himself,
    accordingly, became a foundation to them,
    and supports them with joy, because they are
    not ashamed to bear His name.”

    CHAPTER 15

    115. “Explain to me, sir,” I said, “the names
    of these virgins, and of those women who
    were clothed in black raiment.”
    “Hear,” he said, “the names of the stronger
    virgins who stood at the comers.
    The first is Faith, the second Continence, the
    third Power, the fourth Patience. And the
    others standing in the midst of these have
    the following names: Simplicity, Innocence,
    Purity, Cheerfulness, Truth, Understanding,
    Harmony, Love.
    He who bears these names and that of the
    Son of God will be able to enter into the
    kingdom of God.
    Hear, also,” he continued, “the names of the
    women who had the black garments; and of
    these four are stronger than the rest.
    The first is Unbelief, the second:
    Incontinence, the third Disobedience, the
    fourth Deceit. And their followers are called
    Sorrow, Wickedness, Wantonness, Anger,
    Falsehood, Folly, Backbiting, Hatred.
    The servant of God who bears these names
    shall see, indeed, the kingdom of God, but
    shall not enter into it.”

    “And the stones, sir,” I said, “which were
    taken out of the pit and fitted into the
    building: what are they?” “
    The first,” he said, “the ten that were placed
    as a foundation, are the first generation, and
    the twenty-five the second generation, of
    righteous men; and the thirty-five are the
    prophets of God and His ministers; and the
    forty are the apostles and teachers of the
    preaching of the Son of God.”
    “Why, then, sir,” I asked, “did the virgins
    carry these stones also through the gate, and
    give them for the building of the tower?”
    “Because,” he answered, “these were the first
    who bore these spirits, and they never
    departed from each other, neither the spirits
    from the men nor the men from the spirits,
    but the spirits remained with them until
    their falling asleep. And unless they had had
    these spirits with them, they would not have
    been of use for the building of this tower.”

    CHAPTER 16

    116. “Explain to me a little further, sir,” I
    said.
    “What is it that you desire?” he asked.
    “Why, sir,” I said, “did these stones ascend
    out of the pit, and be applied to the building
    of the tower, after having borne these
    spirits?
    “They were obliged,” he answered, “to
    ascend through water in order that they
    might be made alive; for, unless they laid
    aside the deadness of their life, they could
    not in any other way enter into the kingdom
    of God.
    Accordingly, those also who fell asleep
    received the seal of the Son of God.
    For,” he continued, “before a man bears the
    name of the Son of God he is dead; but when
    he receives the seal he lays aside his
    deadness, and obtains life.
    The seal, then, is the water: they descend
    into the water dead, and they arise alive.
    And to them, accordingly, was this seal
    preached, and they made use of it that they
    might enter into the kingdom of God.”
    “Why, sir,” I asked, “did the forty stones also
    ascend with them out of the pit, having
    already received the seal?”
    “Because,” he said, “these apostles and
    teachers who preached the name of the Son
    of God, after falling asleep in the power and
    faith of the Son of God, preached it not only
    to those who were asleep, but themselves
    also gave them the seal of the preaching.
    Accordingly they descended with them into
    the water, and again ascended. [But these
    descended alive and rose up again alive;
    whereas they who had previously fallen
    asleep descended dead, but rose up again
    alive.]
    By these, then, were they quickened and
    made to know the name of the Son of God.
    For this reason also did they ascend with
    them, and were fitted along with them into
    the building of the tower, and, untouched by
    the chisel, were built in along with them.
    For they slept in righteousness and in great
    purity, but only they had not this seal.
    You have accordingly the explanation of
    these also.”

    CHAPTER 17

    117. “I understand, sir,” I replied. “Now,
    sir,” I continued, “explain to me, with
    respect to the mountains, why their forms
    are various and diverse.”
    “Listen,” he said: “these mountains are the
    twelve tribes, which inhabit the whole world.
    The Son of God, accordingly, was preached
    unto them by the apostles.”
    “But why are the mountains of various kinds,
    some having one form, and others another?
    Explain that to me, sir.”
    “Listen,” he answered:
    “These twelve tribes that inhabit the whole
    world are twelve nations. And they vary in
    prudence and understanding.
    As numerous, then, as are the varieties of
    the mountains which you saw, are also the
    diversities of mind and understanding among
    these nations.
    And I will explain to you the actions of each
    one.”
    “First, sir,” I said, “explain this: why, when
    the mountains are so diverse, their stones,
    when placed in the building, became one
    colour, shining like those also that had
    ascended out of the pit.”
    “Because,” he said, “all the nations that dwell
    under heaven were called by hearing and
    believing upon the name of the Son of God.
    Having, therefore, received the seal, they had
    one understanding and one mind; and their
    faith became one, and their love one, and
    with the name they bore also the spirits of
    the virgins. On this account the building of
    the tower became of one colour, bright as
    the sun. But after they had entered into the
    same place, and became one body, certain of
    these defiled themselves, and were expelled
    from the race of the righteous, and became
    again what they were before, or rather
    worse.”

    CHAPTER 18

    118.”How, sir,” I said, “did they become
    worse, after having known God?”
    “He that does not know God,” he answered,
    “and practises evil, receives a certain
    chastisement for his wickedness; but he that
    has known God, ought not any longer to do
    evil, but to do good.
    If, accordingly, when he ought to do good,
    he do evil, does not he appear to do greater
    evil than he who does not know God?
    For this reason, they who have not known
    God and do evil are condemned to death; but
    they who have known God, and have se
    en His
    mighty works, and still continue in evil, shall
    be chastised doubly, and shall die for ever.
    In this way, then, will the Church of God be
    purified.
    For as you saw the stones rejected from the
    tower, and delivered to the evil spirits, and
    cast out thence, so they also shall be cast
    out, and there shall be one body of the
    purified; as the tower also became, as it
    were, of one stone after its purification. In
    like manner also shall it be with the Church
    of God, after it has been purified, and has
    rejected the wicked, and the hypocrites, and
    the blasphemers, and the waverers, and those
    who commit wickedness of different kinds.
    After these have been cast away, the Church
    of God shall be one body, of one mind, of
    one understanding, of one faith, of one love.
    And then the Son of God will be exceeding
    glad, and shall rejoice over them, because He
    has received His people pure.”
    “All these things, sir,” I said, “are great and
    glorious. “Moreover, sir,” I said, “explain to
    me the power and the actions of each one of
    the mountains, that every soul, trusting in
    the Lord, and hearing it, may glorify His
    great, and marvellous, and glorious name.”
    “Hear,” he said, “the diversity of the
    mountains and of the twelve nations”

    #359859
    2besee
    Participant

    Quote

    2bee
    scriptures do not say THAT THE SON HIS THE
    HOLY SPIRIT ONLY MEN DO INTERPRET IT
    THAT WAY ;SO I WILL STICK TO THE
    SCRIPTURES THE WORD OF GOD ,NOT THE
    WORD OF MEN

    Terrarica, wrong. Shepherd was canon. They took it out at the council of nicea. But the earliest church read it out loud in church. That is a fact. Nobody had a problem with its christology!

    #359861
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 22 2013,07:04)

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 22 2013,00:31)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 21 2013,11:12)

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 21 2013,04:23)
    Hi Pierre:

    I have looked at this scripture, and let us look at it again:

    Quote
    Hbr 1:1

    God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,  

    Hbr 1:2

    Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    It states “by whom He(God) has made the worlds, and the “by whom” refers to the Son that He (God has spoken to humanity in these last days”)

    God did not speak to humanity through Jesus until he came in His ministry, but God created everything that He created knowing that He would send Jesus forth into the world at this time to fulfill his purpose for this world and for humanity, and that is what is meant that God created every thing that he created every thing that he created by him and for him.  God knew of this event from the beginning.  Jesus was foreordained.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty

    if the WORD was a word or words then we would not called it whom ,but “it” or “thing ” or “orders” or “wills” or “desires” but definitely NOT A WHOM ,WHAT IT ALWAYS REFERS TO A PERSON


    The Word in John 1 pertains to Jesus, but he was foreordained, and he did not exist as a sentient person until he was born into this world of the virgin Mary, and God did not speak to humanity through him until his ministry on earth.

    If you will check the OT tell me how many scriptures either prophetic or symbolic relate to his coming.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty

    Ge 2:15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.

    Mt 21:33 “Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and went away on a journey.
    Mt 21:34 When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.
    Mt 21:35 “The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third.
    Mt 21:36 Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way.
    Mt 21:37 Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.
    Mt 21:38 “But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’
    Mt 21:39 So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
    Mt 21:40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”
    Mt 21:41 “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.”
    Mt 21:42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
    “ ‘The stone the builders rejected
    has become the capstone

    Ps 118:19 Open for me the gates of righteousness;
    I will enter and give thanks to the LORD.
    Ps 118:20 This is the gate of the LORD
    through which the righteous may enter.
    Ps 118:21 I will give you thanks, for you answered me;
    you have become my salvation.

    Ps 118:22 The stone the builders rejected
    has become the capstone;
    Ps 118:23 the LORD has done this,
    and it is marvelous in our eyes.
    Ps 118:24 This is the day the LORD has made;
    let us rejoice and be glad in it.

    this is spoken about Christ coming just as Jesus spoke in his parable ,

    if you do not believe the scriptures as they are written ,no one can help you in this life may be in the second resurrection God will ,


    So, I believe those scriptures as well as this one:

    Quote
    Gen 3:14 So the Lord God said to the serpent:

    “Because you have done this,
    You are cursed more than all cattle,
    And more than every beast of the field;
    On your belly you shall go,
    And you shall eat dust
    All the days of your life.
    15 And I will put enmity
    Between you and the woman,
    And between your seed and her Seed;
    He shall bruise your head,
    And you shall bruise His heel.”

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #359863
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 21 2013,12:04)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 21 2013,11:13)

    Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 20 2013,22:12)
    kerwin

    Quote
    Conversely, Thomas B. Talbott points to “God is Love” (1 John 4:8 and 1 John 4:16), meaning not merely that God “happens to love,” but rather that love is an essential aspect of God. Talbott uses this to defend Universalism because God must be loving in all God's acts, precluding eternal damnation. 2

    This mere man agrees with me about what the statement “God is love” means.  I used the scriptural pattern from it and on the statement “the word was God” and then voiced my conclusion that God is an aspect of the word.

    the expression that “GOD IS LOVE ” MEANS ACCORDING TO MY UNDERSTANDING IN THE SCRIPTURES ;THAT ALL WHAT GOD DOES IS DONE OUT OF LOVE FOR THE BEINGS HE HAS CREATED ,AND NOT FOR THEIR DOOM,LOVE BEING ONLY ONE OF GOD'S QUALITIES,RIGHTEOUSNESS BEING ANOTHER ONE ,SO IS FAITHFUL AND MANY MORE ,


    T,

    Even when God judges a person as doomed to destruction it is done out of love.


    K

    but you have to add justice and righteousness as well


    T,

    Those are part, or the whole of love.

    #359864
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 21 2013,20:11)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 21 2013,23:08)
    kerwin,

    about the translation the Word was divine, you can check what moffat said. he  said the Word was divine.

    he did not say the word but Word. it is capital W. do you know the reason behind it why they translated is as Word ant not word?? bec that is a title or name of Christ.
    rev 19.13

    now let me give a version of james moffat
    here is what he said
    john 1.1

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    you know what, you need to study hard.
    im sorry boy but your belief cant be supported by the bible. you should make your own


    Jamminin……….ALL original Greek text are in Capitals of upper case lettering, the lower case Greek did not start until around 900 AD. Check it out. So all lettering in the original Greek was upper case. So who gave the right for the change (the Trinitarian) translators and Preexistence-rs did> They slant scriptures to meet their own “beliefs” by using Upper case and Lower case texts, that was not the case originally.

    peace and love………………….gene


    Gene,

    That is my error as I thought it was the other way. When I see Koine Greek written it seems to be all lower case.

Viewing 20 posts - 14,361 through 14,380 (of 26,009 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2026 Heaven Net

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

Create Account