John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 14,341 through 14,360 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
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  • #359763
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 20 2013,02:13)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 20 2013,01:36)
    Mike,

    Quote
    or who laid its cornerstone—
    7 while the morning stars sang together
      and all the angels shouted for joy?

    It sounds like it is not the foundations but the cornerstone that is being laid as the stars sing and the sons shout.

    I hope to look into it some more.

    Note one source for corner stone.


    Mike,

    This parallel is what I have found so far.

    Ezra 3:10
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    10 And when the builders laid the foundation of the temple of the Lord, they set the priests in their apparel with trumpets, and the Levites the sons of Asaph with cymbals, to praise the Lord, after the ordinance of David king of Israel.


    Mike,

    It seems to to be calling the head (cap) stone the corner stone.

    Zechariah 4:7
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    7 Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.

    #359764
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 20 2013,02:21)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 20 2013,02:13)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 20 2013,01:36)
    Mike,

    Quote
    or who laid its cornerstone—
    7 while the morning stars sang together
      and all the angels shouted for joy?

    It sounds like it is not the foundations but the cornerstone that is being laid as the stars sing and the sons shout.

    I hope to look into it some more.

    Note one source for corner stone.


    Mike,

    This parallel is what I have found so far.

    Ezra 3:10
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    10 And when the builders laid the foundation of the temple of the Lord, they set the priests in their apparel with trumpets, and the Levites the sons of Asaph with cymbals, to praise the Lord, after the ordinance of David king of Israel.


    Mike,

    It seems to to be calling the head (cap) stone the corner stone.

    Zechariah 4:7
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    7 Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.


    Mike,

    And the last Scripture where that is done.

    Psalm 118:22
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    22 The stone which the builders refused
    is become the head stone of the corner.

    #359765
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=kerwin,Oct. 19 2013,07:48][/quote]

    Quote

    That is where you are following a new religion that is not preached by Mosses, David, or the Prophets as there is only three testified as being present at the creation event and that is God who spoke his word, his spoken word by which all things that were created were created, and the Spirit that moved over the waters.

    Kerwin,

    Read:

    Genesis 2:2And the earth was void and empty, EMPTY OF GOD'S LOVE and darkness was upon the face of the deep; AND SATAN WAS IN CONTROL OVER THE DEEP HELL FIRE

    and the spirit of God moved over the waters.

    AND THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD MOVED IN CONTROL OVER ALL EARTH

    3And God said: Be light made. And light was made.

    AND GOD THE FATHER SAID HIS WORD: BE LIGHT MADE.

    AND THE SON'S SPIRIT, THE WORD, EMANATED  FROM THE FATHER, AND LIGHT WAS MADE.

    John 1:In the beginning was the Word, ….BE LIGHT MADE

    John 12:46 I am come a LIGHT into the world;…..

    John 1:9 That was the true light, which enlighteneth every man that cometh into this world.

    SO

    THE HOLY SPIRIT MOVED,

    THE FATHER SPOKE,

    AND  HIS  WORD   THE SON'S SPIRIT BECAME LIGHT!

    SO WE ARE IN AGREEMENT: NO?

    SINCE YOU COMMITTED YOURSELF AND SAID:

    Quote
    there is only three testified as being present at the creation event and that is God who spoke his word, his spoken word by which all things that were created were created, and the Spirit that moved over the waters.

    THAT TO ME IS A CLEAR TRIUNE GOD IN FULL FUNCTION WHEN OUR CREATION WAS COMMENCED!

    NOW THAT TRIUNE GOD: THE WORD   THE SON’S SPIRIT, JESUS AS A SPIRIT IN FULL POWER OF GOD, THE ONLY MEDIATOR CREATOR GOD!

    CREATED ALL OUR CREATION,  THROUGH HIS OWN LIGHT WITHIN DARKNESS,  THEREFORE GOOD AND EVIL

    John 1:5 And the LIGHT SHINETH IN DARKNESS, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

    Isaiah 45:7 I form the LIGHT, and create DARKNESS, I make PEACE, and create EVIL : I the Lord that do all these things

    SO TO CONCLUDE:

    THE WORD  WAS SPOKEN BY GOD, AND CAME OUT AS LIGHT!

    THIS LIGHT CREATED OUR WORLD!

    ON ACCOMPLISHING OUR WORLD !

    THIS SAME LIGHT, BECAME FLESH AND THEN SPOKE AGAIN IN JESUS CHRIST THEREFORE BECAME AGAIN THE WORD BUT AS GOD AND MAN ! WORD OF THE FATHER  AND LIGHT OF THE SON  

    SO FIRST THE WORD WAS THE SON IN THE FATHER, WHICH WAS SPOKEN BY:

    THE FATHER IN HEAVEN! THE TRIUNE ALMIGHTY GOD!

    THEN:

    THE THE WORD WAS THE FATHER IN THE SON, WHICH WAS SPOKEN BY THE SON ON EARTH: THE ONLY TRIUNE MEDIATOR GOD!

    John 10:30 I and the Father are one.

    JESUS CHRIST

    Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be, which shall go forth from my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall do whatsoever I please, and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #359766
    kerwin
    Participant

    Carmel,

    Genesis 1:1-2
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

    There was no light of any kind at that time and I doubt Satan was around yet as there was no light to see by.  It is only after the majority of the foundation of earth are laid when the final corner capstone of the foundation is being laid that the sons of God and morning stars celebrate.  

    Satan was the chief of those morning stars for a time.  His fall happened no later than when he chose to tempt Eve with evil and a time after he was created.

    #359767
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 20 2013,04:33)

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 19 2013,10:57)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 20 2013,03:17)
    No Marty,

    The CONFUSION comes when you let your personal wishes override your ability to understand and believe the seven points I listed in my last post.

    (BTW, I only listed seven, but there are dozens of other ones.)

    How do you answer those seven, Marty?  How do you show me I'm wrong in noticing that all the things said about “the Word” are also said about “Jesus”?

    All you have is your fallback nonsense, “Mike, the Word PERTAINS TO Jesus, but isn't actually Jesus.”.

    But it has got to be hard for you to continue this denial when the very things said about “the Word” are also said about “Jesus”.  It's got to be taxing on your mind to continue to force yourself to accept that “God Almighty Himself” could have been WITH “God Almighty Himself” in the beginning.

    It's too bad that you will stick with your denial, Marty.  That denial causes you to miss so much of what Jesus actually sacrificed for us.


    Hi Mike, the Greek Word translated “the Word” in John 1 is “Logos”.  Look up the meaning of the that word.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty, the spokesman for the King of Abyssinian was called Kal Hatze – which means “the word of the king”.

    Does that mean Kal Hatze was literally a word that the king spoke?  YES or NO?

    If your answer is “NO” (as it sensibly should be), then tell me how defining the word “word” would be any kind of support for someone who is trying to convince me that Kal Hatze WAS in fact a literal word that the king spoke.

    Do you understand?  If it is said that God is the “head” of Jesus, would I be able to convince you that God is the literal head on Jesus' shoulders by telling you to look up the meaning of “head”?  Of course not.  So why then would you think your response above helps this discussion in any way – or proves your point?   ???


    Mike:

    I do not know what it means and I don't care.  We were talking about the word “Logos” in John 1.

    And I am sure that you would try to convince me that God is the literal head on the top of Jesus shoulders, by any means that you possibly could, but I am not gullible, and relative to the bible I don't have to ask you anything.  I can ask God what He meant if I have a question about the scriptures.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #359768
    kerwin
    Participant

    Carmel,

    Quote
    AND THE SON'S SPIRIT, THE WORD, EMANATED FROM THE FATHER, AND LIGHT WAS MADE.

    So you are basically claiming the Word is the Holy Spirit.

    You previously claimed the Jesus' soul was the Holy Spirit.

    Quote
    THE HOLY SPIRIT MOVED,

    THE FATHER SPOKE,

    AND HIS WORD THE SON'S SPIRIT BECAME LIGHT!

    I agree the Spirit moved and God spoke and then there was light. I do not agree that God's spoken word literally transformed into light.

    I do not agree that the Spirit is Jesus' soul.

    #359773
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 20 2013,01:41)
    Jammin,

    Quote
    what??? GOD is an aspect of the WORD? where did you get that??
    that is not written in greek bible.
    make your own bible and revised john 1.1 LOL

    I obtained it in the way I said I did.

    Since you missed it, I will go over it in more detail.

    1 John 4:8 & 16 both state “God is love” but it is not to be understood literal as you in part understand the statement “the word is God”.  Instead is declaring love is an aspect of God.

    Applying  the same scriptural pattern obtained from these two passages to the clause the word is God we come to understand that God is an aspect of his word.

    To test this I asked is God an aspect of his word and the answer is yes as it is his word.


    then give me a greek bible that says in john 1.1 that God is an aspect of the Word.

    ill give you 1million year to find one

    #359774
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 20 2013,01:50)
    Jammin,

    Quote
    bible scholars and translators said Word and not word in john 1.1 although some versions say word

    So you choose to put your trust in those men who translate it Word vs those who translate it word despite the fact you have already quoted Koine Greek, which has no capitals.


    those men KNOW what they are doing.
    you can never find an english bible with ALL SMALL LETTERS.

    translators know what they are doing. you are a pretender. you dont have knowledge about scriptures. you are nothing kerwin. you are a false teacher.

    #359776
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 20 2013,12:16)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 20 2013,01:41)
    Jammin,

    Quote
    what??? GOD is an aspect of the WORD? where did you get that??
    that is not written in greek bible.
    make your own bible and revised john 1.1 LOL

    I obtained it in the way I said I did.

    Since you missed it, I will go over it in more detail.

    1 John 4:8 & 16 both state “God is love” but it is not to be understood literal as you in part understand the statement “the word is God”.  Instead is declaring love is an aspect of God.

    Applying  the same scriptural pattern obtained from these two passages to the clause the word is God we come to understand that God is an aspect of his word.

    To test this I asked is God an aspect of his word and the answer is yes as it is his word.


    then give me a greek bible that says in john 1.1 that God is an aspect of the Word.

    ill give you 1million year to find one


    Jammin,

    I pointed out how the AKJV does and you chose to disbelieve without giving a logical reason, or any reason at all.

    But you have already revealed you choose to put your faith in mere men and what and there translations and interpretations.  Let us point to one these mere men that is a Trinitarian and with whose teachings I disagree.

    His credentials by the education establishment's criteria.

    Quote
    Thomas Talbott is Professor Emeritus of Philosophy at Willamette University, Salem, Oregon. He is best known for his advocacy of Trinitarian Universalism. 1

    His claim about the statement God is love.

    Quote
    Conversely, Thomas B. Talbott points to “God is Love” (1 John 4:8 and 1 John 4:16), meaning not merely that God “happens to love,” but rather that love is an essential aspect of God. Talbott uses this to defend Universalism because God must be loving in all God's acts, precluding eternal damnation. 2

    This mere man agrees with me about what the statement “God is love” means.  I used the scriptural pattern from it and on the statement “the word was God” and then voiced my conclusion that God is an aspect of the word.

    Quote
    Translations by James Moffatt, Hugh J. Schonfield and Edgar Goodspeed render part of the verse as “…and the Word was divine.”3

    Quote
    James Moffatt (1870-1944) was a theologian and graduate of Glasgow University. Moffatt trained at the Free Church College, Glasgow, and was a practising minister before becoming Professor of Greek and New Testament Exegesis at Mansfield College, Oxford in 1911. 4

    Quote
    Hugh Joseph Schonfield (London, 17 May 1901 – January 24, 1988, London) was a British Bible scholar specializing in the New Testament and the early development of the Christian religion and church. 5

    1) Thomas Talbott
    2) Talbott quote is from Fire in  the Bones blog
    3) Quote about John 1:1 translations.
    4) James Moffatt
    5) Hugh J. Schonfield

    #359777
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kerwin,

    I'm not sure anymore what we're even talking about.  I thought I was showing you that the earth was already there when God said, “Let there be light”, and that the angels must have also been there since they shouted for joy when God laid the foundations of the earth.

    I can't make heads or tails out of your recent comments concerning this topic.  But I haven't seen anything in your posts that would change my mind – or change the fact that my understanding is clearly spelled out in the scriptures.

    #359783
    terraricca
    Participant

    kerwin

    Quote
    Conversely, Thomas B. Talbott points to “God is Love” (1 John 4:8 and 1 John 4:16), meaning not merely that God “happens to love,” but rather that love is an essential aspect of God. Talbott uses this to defend Universalism because God must be loving in all God's acts, precluding eternal damnation. 2

    This mere man agrees with me about what the statement “God is love” means. I used the scriptural pattern from it and on the statement “the word was God” and then voiced my conclusion that God is an aspect of the word.

    the expression that “GOD IS LOVE ” MEANS ACCORDING TO MY UNDERSTANDING IN THE SCRIPTURES ;THAT ALL WHAT GOD DOES IS DONE OUT OF LOVE FOR THE BEINGS HE HAS CREATED ,AND NOT FOR THEIR DOOM,LOVE BEING ONLY ONE OF GOD'S QUALITIES,RIGHTEOUSNESS BEING ANOTHER ONE ,SO IS FAITHFUL AND MANY MORE ,

    #359801
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 20 2013,04:33)

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 19 2013,10:57)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 20 2013,03:17)
    No Marty,

    The CONFUSION comes when you let your personal wishes override your ability to understand and believe the seven points I listed in my last post.

    (BTW, I only listed seven, but there are dozens of other ones.)

    How do you answer those seven, Marty?  How do you show me I'm wrong in noticing that all the things said about “the Word” are also said about “Jesus”?

    All you have is your fallback nonsense, “Mike, the Word PERTAINS TO Jesus, but isn't actually Jesus.”.

    But it has got to be hard for you to continue this denial when the very things said about “the Word” are also said about “Jesus”.  It's got to be taxing on your mind to continue to force yourself to accept that “God Almighty Himself” could have been WITH “God Almighty Himself” in the beginning.

    It's too bad that you will stick with your denial, Marty.  That denial causes you to miss so much of what Jesus actually sacrificed for us.


    Hi Mike, the Greek Word translated “the Word” in John 1 is “Logos”.  Look up the meaning of the that word.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty, the spokesman for the King of Abyssinian was called Kal Hatze – which means “the word of the king”.

    Does that mean Kal Hatze was literally a word that the king spoke?  YES or NO?

    If your answer is “NO” (as it sensibly should be), then tell me how defining the word “word” would be any kind of support for someone who is trying to convince me that Kal Hatze WAS in fact a literal word that the king spoke.

    Do you understand?  If it is said that God is the “head” of Jesus, would I be able to convince you that God is the literal head on Jesus' shoulders by telling you to look up the meaning of “head”?  Of course not.  So why then would you think your response above helps this discussion in any way – or proves your point?   ???


    Jesus is the voice of the King, that is of God, but he did not exist as a sentient person prior to being born into this world.  The scripture states that God spoke to humanity through him in these last days not before.

    Quote

    Hbr 1:1

    God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,  

    Hbr 1:2

    Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    Hbr 1:3

    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    “Logos” by definition is not a person, but are the sayings of God which embody God's plan for humanity and reveal to humanity His Character.

    And so, Yes, understanding the definition of the Greek Word “Logos” will help you to understand this.  The bible manuscripts used to translate our English bible were written in Greek.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #359803
    terraricca
    Participant

    Marty

    Hbr 1:2

    Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    this is your quoted scripture just look at it ; by whom also he made the worlds

    WHEN DID GOD MADE THE WORLD THROUGH CHRIST ????

    Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
    Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with “THE ALMIGHTY ONE, and the Word was A MIGHTY ONE.
    Jn 1:2 He was with “THE ALMIGHTY ONE ” in the beginning.
    Jn 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    IT SEEMS THAT ALL THE SCRIPTURES ARE BINDING TOGETHER AS ONE

    #359810
    2besee
    Participant

    Mike,
    This is what I was going to post on the other page as 'wondering' but I cannot find posts there, so I will put it here instead, as my reply.

    Mike, you know, I do not agree with most of the trinitarians in full, though I do in part. I also agree with part of what arians say but a big part I do not. I am however closer now to trinitarians and unitarians… well at least the unitarians who believe the Holy Spirit is God, or part of God.
    I 100% believe, as God has shown me, that “In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God”. It cannot take my mind to understand it -because it takes the spirit to agree with it. Just as it does not take a scholars degree, nor the study of Greek or Hebrew. God spoke so that almost everybody could understand and reveled things to babes.

    I also believe, unlike the trinitarians, that the word was God's spoken word, and not another being, as can be seen with creation when God spoke, and the spirit moved. So there we have God and his spirit alone in creation, that being our one God, and the “us”.

    And I am not alone in this. Even an early church father Irenaeus, the only one that i have seen writing specifically on John 1:1 writes in agreement when he says:

    Quote “The world was not formed by angels, or by any other being, contrary to the will of the most high God, but was made by the Father through the Word.” Unquote.

    (“The word” being not another being – but God's spoken word)

    Quote “For this is a peculiarity of the pre-
    eminence of God , not to stand in need of other instruments for the creation of those things which are summoned into existence .
    His own Word is both suitable and
    sufficient for the formation of all things, even as John, the disciple of the Lord, declares regarding Him: “All things were made by Him, and without Him was nothing made.” John 1:3 Now, among the “all things” our world must be embraced. It
    too, therefore, was made by His Word, as Scripture tells us in the book of Genesis that He made all things connected with our
    world by His Word. David also expresses the same truth [when he says] “For He spoke, and they were made; He commanded, and they were created.” Whom, therefore, shall we believe as to the creation of the world— these heretics who have been mentioned that prate so foolishly and inconsistently on
    the subject, or the disciples of the Lord, and Moses , who was both a faithful servant of God and a prophet ? He at first narrated the
    formation of the world in these words: “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth,” Genesis 1:1 and all other things
    in succession; but neither gods nor angels [had any share in the work].
    Now, that this God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Paul the apostle also has declared, [saying,] “There is one God, the Father, who is above all, and through all things, and in us all.” I have indeed proved
    already that there is only one God ; but I shall further demonstrate this from the apostles themselves, and from the discourses of the Lord. For what sort of conduct would it be, were we to forsake the utterances of
    the prophets, of the Lord, and of the
    apostles , that we might give heed to these persons , who speak not a word of sense?” (Unquote)

    See how there, he speaks of only one God and his spoken word.
    Not that I go to the writings of those men to learn anything, because I do not.
    To me, they are no different than todays philosophers.

    To me, a spirit filled writing is the shepherd of Hermas and what was the Shepherd's christology is exactly what I believe. Except, in Hermas, the Holy Spirit was the son of God which may be true. And he became one with the son of man, just as I believe.
    And Hermas was originally canon, until they took it out, and they did not take it out because of its 'spirit christology' – but due to its harsher words regarding sin and forgiveness. It was one of the most popular writings in the earliest church, and was read outloud in church. Nobody had a problem it seemed with the Holy Spirit being the son, and the son of man being a man  (the two sons of God who became one).

    But you know what I believe, Mike. And I know what you believe.
    And you know this would go on and on and on and on.

    #359811
    942767
    Participant

    Hi Pierre:

    I have looked at this scripture, and let us look at it again:

    Quote
    Hbr 1:1

    God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

    Hbr 1:2

    Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    It states “by whom He(God) has made the worlds, and the “by whom” refers to the Son that He (God has spoken to humanity in these last days”)

    God did not speak to humanity through Jesus until he came in His ministry, but God created everything that He created knowing that He would send Jesus forth into the world at this time to fulfill his purpose for this world and for humanity, and that is what is meant that God created every thing that he created every thing that he created by him and for him. God knew of this event from the beginning. Jesus was foreordained.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #359813
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 20 2013,14:19)
    “Logos” by definition is not a person, but are the sayings of God which embody God's plan for humanity and reveal to humanity His Character.


    The same as in English, “word” is by definition not normally a person. But if a spokesman is called by the title “the word of the king”, it does refer to a person.

    In Revelation, Jesus is called “the Word of God”. Does “logos” refer to a person in that verse?

    #359814
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Marty,

    The words plainly say “through whom He created the ages”. You are right that these words are about “the Son” as is clearly taught in that very passage.

    So if the ages were made through the Son, then the Son must have existed to have the ages made through him.

    That is the SENSIBLE understanding of the words. Your “explanation” borders on the unintelligible and nonsensical.

    I will stick with the intelligent and logical way of understanding those very clear words. You may choose to understand them any way you like.

    #359815
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (2besee @ Oct. 20 2013,16:10)
    But you know what I believe, Mike. And I know what you believe.


    Who do you think the “US” is in Gen 1:26, 2B? I wonder who Irenaeus thought the “US” was.

    #359816
    2besee
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 21 2013,11:47)

    Quote (2besee @ Oct. 20 2013,16:10)
    But you know what I believe, Mike. And I know what you believe.


    Who do you think the “US” is in Gen 1:26, 2B?  I wonder who Irenaeus thought the “US” was.


    God and his spirit, and his spoken word.

    #359818
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 21 2013,09:38)

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 20 2013,14:19)
    “Logos” by definition is not a person, but are the sayings of God which embody God's plan for humanity and reveal to humanity His Character.


    The same as in English, “word” is by definition not normally a person.  But if a spokesman is called by the title “the word of the king”, it does refer to a person.

    In Revelation, Jesus is called “the Word of God”.  Does “logos” refer to a person in that verse?


    No, Mike:

    The Word of God says about Jesus in Revelation 19 that “his name shall be called “the Word of God”, and not that “he is the Word of God”, and that is the problem with you is that you keep adding a little twist here and there. This is the scripture:

    Quote

    Rev 19:13

    And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    But even so, he is not called this his ministry.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

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