John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 14,321 through 14,340 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #359689
    942767
    Participant

    Hi Wakeup:

    The scriptures state plainly how Jesus was made flesh, and no, I do not believe that Michael is Jesus in a pre-incarnate state, nor do I believe that Jesus existed as a sentient person prior to his birth into this world. He existed in the heart of God, and was manifest to the world at a particular point in time.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #359690
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 16 2013,04:23)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 15 2013,12:59)
    Therefore you cnt give me any single version or cmentary that say that the word in jn1:1 i rs the hs. Be true to yourself kerwin. How cn u say that your belief is the truth if you cnt supsupport it with docs? Does it make sense?


    Jammin,

    I am not claiming that the word is the holy spirit.  I am claiming the the word is God's Law, Promises, Plans, and whatever else is of the like.  The context determines the details.

    There are three elements recorded in Genesis as being at the creation and they are God; his word, defined as above; and the holy spirit.  The Christ is not there.  

    Hebrews 11:3
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

    John 1:3
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    Both verses are essentially saying the same thing as they wax poetic.  The accounts of creation in Genesis also state the same.

    word is not the same as Word.
    do you understand that boy?

    JOHN 1.1 is about the Word and not word.
    heb 11.3 is talking about word and not Word.

    do you understand that?
    or maybe you need to go back to school.

    The Word in john 1.1 is not GOd's plan or promises or GOd's law etc. that is only your opinion!

    the verse said the Word was GOD.
    do you know the meaning of that? that cant be a plan of God or promises or GOd's law because THE WORD WAS GOD john said.
    if you know how to read english then you should understand that.

    the greek bible said
    εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος

    do you see that in greek?

    ill repeat
    και θεος ην ο λογος

    that was not a plan of GOD. no version would say that.
    at the end of the sentence it says the WORD WAS GOD.

    #359691
    kerwin
    Participant

    Jammin,

    Quote
    word is not the same as Word.
    do you understand that boy?

    That is not written in Scripture so where are you getting you information from?

    Quote
    JOHN 1.1 is about the Word and not word.
    heb 11.3 is talking about word and not Word.

    John 1:1-14 is about the logos and Hebrews 11:3 is about the rhema but they both translate to word in English.  Neither are ever capitalized in Koine Greek.  In both case God's word is treated like a person even though it is not.

    Quote
    The Word in john 1.1 is not GOd's plan or promises or GOd's law etc. that is only your opinion!

    That  is your opinion and like an earlier one has no real basis in Scripture.

    Quote
    the verse said the Word was GOD.
    do you know the meaning of that? that cant be a plan of God or promises or God's law because THE WORD WAS GOD

    Since God is love means love is an aspect of God then the Word was God may mean God is an aspect of the Word.  It is God's Word so that is a given in more than one way.

    Quote
    the greek bible said
    εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος

    do you see that in greek?

    ill repeat
    και θεος ην ο λογος

    I see there are no capital letters.

    #359709
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=kerwin,Oct. 16 2013,04:23][/quote]

    Quote
    There are three elements recorded in Genesis as being at the creation and they are God; his word, defined as above; and the holy spirit.  The Christ is not there.  

    Kerwin,

    Christ is the WORD MADE FLESH

    NOW THE WORD MADE FLESH IS:

    THE FATHER    CHRIST'S SPIRIT

    THE SON         CHRIST'S FLESH BODY

    AND THE HOLY SPIRIT   CHRIST'S SOUL

    SO CHRIST IS THE GODHEAD IN FLESH!

    Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #359710
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (carmel @ Oct. 19 2013,02:14)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 16 2013,04:23)


    Quote
    There are three elements recorded in Genesis as being at the creation and they are God; his word, defined as above; and the holy spirit.  The Christ is not there.  

    Kerwin,

    Christ is the WORD MADE FLESH

    NOW THE WORD MADE FLESH IS:

    THE FATHER    CHRIST'S SPIRIT

    THE SON         CHRIST'S FLESH BODY

    AND THE HOLY SPIRIT   CHRIST'S SOUL

    SO CHRIST IS THE GODHEAD IN FLESH!

    Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles


    Carmel,

    That is where you are following a new religion that is not preached by Mosses, David, or the Prophets as there is only three testified as being present at the creation event and that is God who spoke his word, his spoken word by which all things that were created were created, and the Spirit that moved over the waters.  Moses does not place anyone else there and David and the Prophets agree but your chosen teaching disagrees.

    I agree Jesus is the word made flesh but he was not the word before it gained the aspect of flesh.

    Another way of saying the same thing is to say the word is flesh just as God is love but unlike God who has always been love there was a time when the word became flesh.

    I choose not to overload you by addressing anything else.

    #359723
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 18 2013,03:50)
    Jammin,

    Quote
    word is not the same as Word.
    do you understand that boy?

    That is not written in Scripture so where are you getting you information from?

    Quote
    JOHN 1.1 is about the Word and not word.
    heb 11.3 is talking about word and not Word.

    John 1:1-14 is about the logos and Hebrews 11:3 is about the rhema but they both translate to word in English.  Neither are ever capitalized in Koine Greek.  In both case God's word is treated like a person even though it is not.

    Quote
    The Word in john 1.1 is not GOd's plan or promises or GOd's law etc. that is only your opinion!

    That  is your opinion and like an earlier one has no real basis in Scripture.

    Quote
    the verse said the Word was GOD.
    do you know the meaning of that? that cant be a plan of God or promises or God's law because THE WORD WAS GOD

    Since God is love means love is an aspect of God then the Word was God may mean God is an aspect of the Word.  It is God's Word so that is a given in more than one way.

    Quote
    the greek bible said
    εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος

    do you see that in greek?

    ill repeat
    και θεος ην ο λογος

    I see there are no capital letters.


    what??? GOD is an aspect of the WORD? where did you get that??
    that is not written in greek bible.
    make your own bible and revised john 1.1 LOL

    this is really obvious. you are preaching doctrines from men.
    you are not even a scholar or a translator.
    bible scholars and translators said Word and not word in john 1.1 although some versions say word but you can see in john 1.1 that the Word was God. the sentence tells us that this is not just a word spoken but a title. you can read rev 19.13 and commentaries/versions also support this view.

    there is a huge difference between the word word and Word. that is why scholars translated john 1.1 logos as Word and not word and you can see in the latter part of the sentence that the Word was God. in greek, kai theos ein ho logos.

    study hard boy.

    #359727
    kerwin
    Participant

    Jammin,

    Quote
    what??? GOD is an aspect of the WORD? where did you get that??
    that is not written in greek bible.
    make your own bible and revised john 1.1 LOL

    I obtained it in the way I said I did.

    Since you missed it, I will go over it in more detail.

    1 John 4:8 & 16 both state “God is love” but it is not to be understood literal as you in part understand the statement “the word is God”. Instead is declaring love is an aspect of God.

    Applying the same scriptural pattern obtained from these two passages to the clause the word is God we come to understand that God is an aspect of his word.

    To test this I asked is God an aspect of his word and the answer is yes as it is his word.

    #359728
    kerwin
    Participant

    Jammin,

    Quote
    bible scholars and translators said Word and not word in john 1.1 although some versions say word

    So you choose to put your trust in those men who translate it Word vs those who translate it word despite the fact you have already quoted Koine Greek, which has no capitals.

    #359730
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    I see a bunch of confusion, diversion, and wishful thinking in these posts.  I see people who say the Word is “related to”, or “concerns” Jesus; but they won't come out and say it IS Jesus because of selfish personal desires.  I see people claiming that literal words that God spoke, like “Let there be light”, actually became a flesh and blood human being.

    How did this ever get so confusing for you guys?  

    Let's do this once again…………..

    1.  The Word was with God in the beginning —–  Jesus had glory alongside God before the word began.

    2.  All things were created through the Word —–  All things were created through Jesus.

    3.  The Word was the true light that came into the world —–  Jesus was the true light that came into the world.

    4.  All who believed in the name of the Word were given the right to become children of God —–  All who believe in the name of Jesus are given the right to become children of God.

    5.  The Word became flesh —–  Jesus existed in the form of God before being made in the likeness of a flesh and blood human being.

    6.  John the Baptist said these words about the Word:  He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me ——  John the Baptist said these words about Jesus:  He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.

    7.  The rider of the white horse is called The Word —–  The rider of the white horse is Jesus.

    How many will it take, fellas?  When will sanity kick in for you guys?  It gets so old reading the same “denial drivel” over and over.  Some of you need to get a clue here.

    #359734
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 17 2013,11:30)

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 14 2013,14:41)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 13 2013,12:31)

    1.  Are you telling me that the SAYINGS of God were both with God and were God in the beginning?  

    2.  Are you telling me that the SAYINGS of God actually became a flesh and blood man, who dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten?  

    3.  Are you telling me that it is the SAYINGS of God who will ride a white horse and do battle against Satan and his hordes?


    Mike:

    Number 1, the sayings of God were with Him as a plan for His creation, and it is through this plan which was to give us His only begotten Son to be the propitiation for our sins, and to reconcile us unto Himself, He manifests His character. God is love.

    #2, The prophetic sayings of God relative to Jesus became a reality when Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and born into this world of the virgin Mary.

    #3:  Jesus has been Lord and Christ, and it is through the Word of God that he will make war and judge humanity.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Okay Marty.  The following is “the word of God”:

    “Let there be light.”

    Are you saying that the aforementioned “saying of God” could “become flesh, and dwell on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son”?


    Hi Mike:

    What I said is that:

    Quote
    #2, The prophetic sayings of God relative to Jesus became a reality when Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and born into this world of the virgin Mary.

    You asked the following question trying to be wise:

    Okay Marty.  The following is “the word of God”:

    [color=maroon]”Let there be light.”

    Are you saying that the aforementioned “saying of God” could “become flesh, and dwell on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son”?[/color]

    And I answered yes, because of the following scriptures, although you know that I was talking about the prophetic saying of God relative to Jesus and not all the saying of God.

    Quote
    Jhn 1:5

    And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

    Jhn 3:19

    And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

    Jhn 8:12

    Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

    Jhn 12:46

    I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

    The confusion comes when people like you try to add a little word like “a” or “who” to make the scriptures state what you want them to state.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #359736
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    No Marty,

    The CONFUSION comes when you let your personal wishes override your ability to understand and believe the seven points I listed in my last post.

    (BTW, I only listed seven, but there are dozens of other ones.)

    How do you answer those seven, Marty?  How do you show me I'm wrong in noticing that all the things said about “the Word” are also said about “Jesus”?

    All you have is your fallback nonsense, “Mike, the Word PERTAINS TO Jesus, but isn't actually Jesus.”.

    But it has got to be hard for you to continue this denial when the very things said about “the Word” are also said about “Jesus”. It's got to be taxing on your mind to continue to force yourself to accept that “God Almighty Himself” could have been WITH “God Almighty Himself” in the beginning.

    It's too bad that you will stick with your denial, Marty.  That denial causes you to miss so much of what Jesus actually sacrificed for us.

    #359737
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 20 2013,03:17)
    No Marty,

    The CONFUSION comes when you let your personal wishes override your ability to understand and believe the seven points I listed in my last post.

    (BTW, I only listed seven, but there are dozens of other ones.)

    How do you answer those seven, Marty?  How do you show me I'm wrong in noticing that all the things said about “the Word” are also said about “Jesus”?

    All you have is your fallback nonsense, “Mike, the Word PERTAINS TO Jesus, but isn't actually Jesus.”.

    But it has got to be hard for you to continue this denial when the very things said about “the Word” are also said about “Jesus”.  It's got to be taxing on your mind to continue to force yourself to accept that “God Almighty Himself” could have been WITH “God Almighty Himself” in the beginning.

    It's too bad that you will stick with your denial, Marty.  That denial causes you to miss so much of what Jesus actually sacrificed for us.


    Hi Mike, the Greek Word translated “the Word” in John 1 is “Logos”. Look up the meaning of the that word.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #359738
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Quote
    The Word was with God in the beginning

    That is why it is written “And God said” in the beginning but you seem to want to add to it.

    Genesis 1:1-3
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

    There are only three mentioned.

    1) God
    2) God's spoken word.
    3) God's Spirit

    Two of those are with God and are divine.

    There is no forth mentioned.

    #359741
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 19 2013,10:57)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 20 2013,03:17)
    No Marty,

    The CONFUSION comes when you let your personal wishes override your ability to understand and believe the seven points I listed in my last post.

    (BTW, I only listed seven, but there are dozens of other ones.)

    How do you answer those seven, Marty?  How do you show me I'm wrong in noticing that all the things said about “the Word” are also said about “Jesus”?

    All you have is your fallback nonsense, “Mike, the Word PERTAINS TO Jesus, but isn't actually Jesus.”.

    But it has got to be hard for you to continue this denial when the very things said about “the Word” are also said about “Jesus”.  It's got to be taxing on your mind to continue to force yourself to accept that “God Almighty Himself” could have been WITH “God Almighty Himself” in the beginning.

    It's too bad that you will stick with your denial, Marty.  That denial causes you to miss so much of what Jesus actually sacrificed for us.


    Hi Mike, the Greek Word translated “the Word” in John 1 is “Logos”.  Look up the meaning of the that word.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty, the spokesman for the King of Abyssinian was called Kal Hatze – which means “the word of the king”.

    Does that mean Kal Hatze was literally a word that the king spoke? YES or NO?

    If your answer is “NO” (as it sensibly should be), then tell me how defining the word “word” would be any kind of support for someone who is trying to convince me that Kal Hatze WAS in fact a literal word that the king spoke.

    Do you understand? If it is said that God is the “head” of Jesus, would I be able to convince you that God is the literal head on Jesus' shoulders by telling you to look up the meaning of “head”? Of course not. So why then would you think your response above helps this discussion in any way – or proves your point? ???

    #359742
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 19 2013,11:08)
    Mike,

    Quote
    The Word was with God in the beginning

    That is why it is written “And God said” in the beginning but you seem to want to add to it.

    Genesis 1:1-3
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

    There are only three mentioned.

    1) God
    2) God's spoken word.
    3) God's Spirit

    Two of those are with God and are divine.

    There is no forth mentioned.


    Kerwin,

    Which did God create first? The angels? Or the earth?

    Obviously the angels, right? Since they sang for joy when he created the earth, right?

    So your claim that “there is no fourth mentioned” is null and void, since we know the heavens were FILLED with others when God said “Let there be light”.

    Also, once again you wax poetic as if “God's spoken word” was a separate entity that was with Him when created light to shine on the earth. Now all you have to do is eliminate that nonsensical “spoken” part, and sum up by saying God's Word was with Him when created light to shine on the earth.

    How far you guys sink down the rabbit hole of Mystery Babylon just because of your own selfish, personal wishes.

    Kerwin, I just listed 7 direct points for Marty a couple of posts ago. I listed these 7 plus 3 more for you in a post in a different thread a week ago. Why not, instead of waxing poetic and playing games with semantics, just address each of those direct points DIRECTLY for me – and show me where I'm WRONG about the same things that are said about “the Word” being said about “Jesus”.

    Go ahead. Show me which point I've gotten WRONG, Kerwin. For God's sake, at least ADDRESS those points. Say SOMETHING about them. DEAL with them in a DIRECT manner.

    Start with #1, and show me how I'm WRONG. Then we can move on to #2, and so forth.

    #359748
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    I tend to agree with those who claim the angels were made on the second day as light was created on the first day and the angels would have been unable to see anything without it.  They are creature made in heaven so they could not have been made before heaven.

    Job 38:4-12
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?
    declare, if thou hast understanding.
    5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest?
    or who hath stretched the line upon it?
    6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened?
    or who laid the corner stone thereof;
    7 when the morning stars sang together,
    and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
    8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth,
    as if it had issued out of the womb?
    9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof,
    and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
    10 and brake up for it my decreed place,
    and set bars and doors,
    11 and said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further:
    and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
    12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days;
    and caused the dayspring to know his place;

    That teaching may instead come from the order as they are laid down in Job 38:4-12 where the foundations are laid, measured and fashioned and the cornerstone is set before the stars shouted  and the son sang.  Then afterwards the waters were given borders and broken up as the clouds and darkness of space became the sky.

    #359757
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Kerwin,

    The sons of God shouted with joy WHILE God laid the foundations of the earth:

    Job 38
    6 On what were its footings set,
       or who laid its cornerstone—
    7 while the morning stars sang together
       and all the angels shouted for joy?

    And the earth was already there, formless and void WHEN God said, “Let there be light”:

    Genesis 1
    2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

    3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

    #359760
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Quote
    or who laid its cornerstone—
    7 while the morning stars sang together
      and all the angels shouted for joy?

    It sounds like it is not the foundations but the cornerstone that is being laid as the stars sing and the sons shout.

    I hope to look into it some more.

    Note one source for corner stone.

    #359761
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    The heavens were there as well.

    #359762
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 20 2013,01:36)
    Mike,

    Quote
    or who laid its cornerstone—
    7 while the morning stars sang together
      and all the angels shouted for joy?

    It sounds like it is not the foundations but the cornerstone that is being laid as the stars sing and the sons shout.

    I hope to look into it some more.

    Note one source for corner stone.


    Mike,

    This parallel is what I have found so far.

    Ezra 3:10
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    10 And when the builders laid the foundation of the temple of the Lord, they set the priests in their apparel with trumpets, and the Levites the sons of Asaph with cymbals, to praise the Lord, after the ordinance of David king of Israel.

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