John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 14,301 through 14,320 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #359544
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 12 2013,21:30)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 12 2013,23:34)
    Wakeup,

    Quote
    Jesus is the *only man* that have been in heaven.

    A common misunderstanding that seems to be common on this website.

    John 3:13
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    What Jesus declares is that he has already ascended to heaven even though in point of fact he has not yet bodily ascended into heaven.

    Even going by the AKJV, Jesus is bodily located on earth when he states the Son of man is in heaven.

    It is wise to adjust your doctrine so it explains why Jesus was still bodily on earth after ascending and being in heaven.


    Kerwin.

    [/QUOTE]A common misunderstanding that seems to be common on this website.
    John 3:13
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
    13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
    What Jesus declares is that he has already ascended to heaven even though in point of fact he has not yet bodily ascended into heaven.
    Even going by the AKJV, Jesus is bodily located on earth when he states the Son of man is in heaven.
    It is wise to adjust your doctrine so it explains why Jesus was still bodily on earth after ascending and being in heaven.
    [/QUOTE].

    (john 3:13).
    You can not see if you refuse to see,or look.
    Jesus was speaking about himself when he was in heaven with his Father. You refuse to see,because that would
    do your doctrine no good. What happened to honesty?

    What happened to clear conscience?

    wakeup.


    Wakeup,

    Jesus was talking to Nicodemus and he used a past tense word to say he had ascended and a present tense to say the Son of Man was currently in heaven.

    In verse fourteen he mentions how he is to be lifted up in the future.

    John 3:14
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

    Now if you were to claim the Jesus, the Son of God, had spiritually descended from God so that God was in him and he, the Son of man, had spiritually ascended so he, the Son of man, was in God, whose throne is in heaven then I would agree.

    #359545
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 12 2013,15:14)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 13 2013,03:04)

    1.  Are you telling me that the SAYINGS of God were both with God and were God in the beginning?  

    2.  Are you telling me that the SAYINGS of God actually became a flesh and blood man, who dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten?  

    3.  Are you telling me that it is the SAYINGS of God who will ride a white horse and do battle against Satan and his hordes?


    I might have to qualify how, but the answer to those questions is yes.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    By all means, qualify for me. But please keep your qualifications organized – as in one separate answer for each of the three separate questions.

    #359594
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 11 2013,05:32)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 09 2013,07:25)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 08 2013,19:51)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 08 2013,12:43)

    John 1:1

    Contemporary English Version (CEV)
    The Word of Life

    1 In the beginning was the one
      who is called the Word.
    The Word was with God
       and was truly God.

    14 The Word became
    a human being
       and lived here with us.
    We saw his true glory,
    the glory of the only Son
       of the Father.
    From him all the kindness
    and all the truth of God
       have come down to us.

    i answered your question. Jesus is called the Word before he became human.

    now answer mine, who is the Word in rev 19.13?
    1. jesus
    2. kerwin

    choose one boy


    Jammin,

    This is what wikipedia states about the CEV:

    Quote
    Moreover, the CEV often paraphrases in order to make the underlying point of a passage clear, rather than directly translating the wording.

    This introduces a greater chance of error due to bias than direct translation as the translator is interpreting their perception of the idea of the whole of what they are paraphrasing rather than just one word.

    The sum of your claim is since the translators believe it  must  be translated and interpreted this way then it must be true.  

    My answer is that I do not find them creditable and I am asking for a creditable source to support your claim.

    As far as I know, by the time Revelations 19:13 rolls around we both agree that Jesus is called by the name of the word.  I have been telling you but you act as if we disagree.  Our disagreement is when he was first called by the name of the word.


    that is just an opinion of wikipedia.
    cev is not the only one who says that the Word in john 1.1 is Christ.

    commentaries also said that and bible versions.
    Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

    In the beginning was the word,…. That this is said not of the written word, but of the essential word of God, the Lord Jesus Christ, is clear, from all that is said from hence, to John 1:14 as that this word was in the beginning, was with God, and is God;

    Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

    1:1-5 The plainest reason why the Son of God is called the Word, seems to be, that as our words explain our minds to others, so was the Son of God sent in order to reveal his Father's mind to the world.

    John 1:1

    New Life Version (NLV)
    Christ Lived Before the World Was Made

    1 The Word (Christ) was in the beginning. The Word was with God. The Word was God.

    i gave you word for word kerwin and explanation from commentaries but you dont want to accept it. you are still proclaiming the bad news.
    the sheep of Christ hears his voice and you are not of them


    Jammin,

    There are men that have the opinion that the word is John is the name of Christ.  These men can be translators or those who comment on the meaning of Scripture.  In the case of the New Life Version the () tell you it is a comment.  It is not in Koine Greek which is deemed to be the original language and so the comment must be the translators.  I do not view either or the commentators you quoted as writing scripture.  

    I am looking fore actual Scripture that reveals Jesus was the word before he was conceived in Mary's inner parts.


    you dont accept version. you dont accept the bible. you dont accept commentaries. you are givinng me opinion.

    ok to be fair.
    i gave you versions and commentaries that say that the WORD in john 1.1 is Christ.

    ok i dare you.
    give me ANY SINGLE VERSION AND COMMENTARY THAT SAYS IN JOHN 1.1 THAT THE WORD IS THE HOLY SPIRIT.

    be true to yourself kerwin. you know what is the truth but you still insist that doctine of men.

    #359596
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 12 2013,12:58)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 11 2013,09:00)

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 11 2013,02:39)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 10 2013,13:40)

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 10 2013,03:55)
    Hi Wakeup:

    The scriptures that you quote from Jeremiah is God speaking to Jeremiah, but God spoke to the nation of Israel through Jeremiah warning them of the impending judgment to come if they did not repent.  

    You say that Only Jesus is the Word of God?  The scripture in Hebrews 1 would surely disagree with you on this assessment, and Jesus is God's spokesman if God spoke through him, but God also spoke through the prophets, and so they also were God's spokesmen, but he, Jesus, is the “express image of God's person” because he obeyed the Word of God without sin unto death on the cross, and so, he became the “image of God” through the application of God's Word in his daily living, and so, in that sense he is the Word of God, but he was not the “Word” in John 1, that “life giving spirit” was formed within him through obedience to God's Word.

    The Word pertains to him in John 1, and the Word is God in John 1c because it is through His Word that God reveals his character, and he gave us Jesus in order to reconcile us unto Himself, but Jesus had to be born into this world and become the express image of his person.  He was born an infant man child, and at the age of 12 we get a glimpse of him learning the Word of God and discussing the Word with the scribes in the synagogue, and then being anointed for his ministry to humanity at the age of 30, and then successfully obeying God without sin unto death on the cross.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty.

    That only means that there is *God and his spokesman*
    in heaven. Two different entities.This can not be.

    BESIDE ME;THERE IS NO SAVIOUR.
    BESIDE ME THERE IS NO GOD.
    GOD IS BY HIMSELF,AND HIS WORD/BREATH, IN HIM.

    1.The Word made all that is made.
    2.Jesus made all that is made.
    3.A spokesman can not give life,
      and was not the tree of life in the garden.
    4.The spokesman can not be the breath of God.
    5. Psalms 33:6   By the WORD of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them
    ***by the BREATH OF HIS MOUTH***.
    6.God's breath was always in him from everlasting.

    Jesus is the WORD OF GOD(BREATH) MADE FLESH.
    I created all things by *MY SELF*.

    And so is the Holy bible: the WORD OF GOD *IN PRINT*.
    To come to God;we need to go
    **THROUH THE SCRIPTURES**ONLY;
    can not come to God through some other means.

    wakeup.


    No Wakeup, Jesus is not the creator.  God created everything by His Word.  And yes besides him there is no savior.  He is the one that gave us His Only Begotten Son.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty.

    Colossians 1:16.
      ***For by him were all things created***,
    that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers:
    *** all things were created by him, and for him***:

     Colossians 1:17   ***And he is before all things***,
    ***and by him all things consist***.

    Refering to Jesus:

    Revelation 4:11   Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

    Refering to God:
    Here lies the mystery to the world.

    No one can deny this truth.

    wakeup.


    Hi Wakeup:

    God created everything that he created knowing that a particular point in time, His plan for humanity would be fulfilled through Jesus, and He created every thing that He created for him.  Jesus is God's Heir, and we are joint heirs with him.

    This is what the verses that you quoted from Colossians mean.  These verses do not say that Jesus is the Creator.

    And if you will read Revelation 4 & 5 in context you will see that Revelation 4:11 refers to God not to Jesus.

    Quote

    Rev 4:8

    And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

    Revelation 4:11 refers to Him who sits on the throne who is the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY.  This is not Jesus.  He is not God.

    And the following verses show Jesus coming to take the seven seals from His hand:

    Quote

    Rev 5:6

    And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

    Rev 5:7

    And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty.

    quote:
    Revelation 4:11 refers to Him who sits on the throne who is the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY. This is not Jesus. He is not God.

    —————————————————————–
    AGREE, but the Lamb of God is inside God on the same throne. Note: Just the one throne. see below.
    —————————————————————–
    quote:
    And the following verses show Jesus coming to take the seven seals from His hand:

    —————————————————————- HE CAME OUT OF THE SAME THRONE WHERE GOD
    IS SITTING.
    —————————————————————–

    Rev 5:6
    And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

    —————————————————————–YOU DID NOT TAKE NOTE OF THIS ONE.
    IT SAYS IN THE **MIDS OF THE THRONE**
    THE SAME THRONE WHERE GOD IS SITTING.
    FOR HE IS INSIDE GOD. HE IS ONE WITH GOD.
    —————————————————————–

    Rev 5:7
    And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

    YES; HE CAME OUT OF GOD AND TOOK THE BOOK.
    THIS IS WHERE THE FLESHLY MIND CAN NOT CONCE
    IVE.
    THE WORD IS WITHIN GOD,AND CAN ALSO BE WITHOUT .

    wakeup.

    #359601
    942767
    Participant

    Hi Wakeup:

    And so, you agree that in the verses in Revelation 4, it is God who is shown sitting on the throne, and if you agree, then,

    Quote

    Rev 4:11

    Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

    Who is the creator?

    Jesus is shown taking the seven seals out of His hand when he finished his ministry and was exalted to the right hand of God, but yes, the same Word that is within Jesus is within God since it originated from Him, and it is God who dwells within Jesus by His Spirit and by His Word.

    Jesus is at the right hand of God as head of the church, and God sits on the throne as the head of Jesus.

    Quote

    Hbr 1:1

    God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

    Hbr 1:2

    Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    Hbr 1:3

    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    Quote

    Rev 6:16

    And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

    Rev 6:17

    For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #359602
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 14 2013,10:00)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 11 2013,05:32)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 09 2013,07:25)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 08 2013,19:51)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 08 2013,12:43)

    John 1:1

    Contemporary English Version (CEV)
    The Word of Life

    1 In the beginning was the one
      who is called the Word.
    The Word was with God
       and was truly God.

    14 The Word became
    a human being
       and lived here with us.
    We saw his true glory,
    the glory of the only Son
       of the Father.
    From him all the kindness
    and all the truth of God
       have come down to us.

    i answered your question. Jesus is called the Word before he became human.

    now answer mine, who is the Word in rev 19.13?
    1. jesus
    2. kerwin

    choose one boy


    Jammin,

    This is what wikipedia states about the CEV:

    Quote
    Moreover, the CEV often paraphrases in order to make the underlying point of a passage clear, rather than directly translating the wording.

    This introduces a greater chance of error due to bias than direct translation as the translator is interpreting their perception of the idea of the whole of what they are paraphrasing rather than just one word.

    The sum of your claim is since the translators believe it  must  be translated and interpreted this way then it must be true.  

    My answer is that I do not find them creditable and I am asking for a creditable source to support your claim.

    As far as I know, by the time Revelations 19:13 rolls around we both agree that Jesus is called by the name of the word.  I have been telling you but you act as if we disagree.  Our disagreement is when he was first called by the name of the word.


    that is just an opinion of wikipedia.
    cev is not the only one who says that the Word in john 1.1 is Christ.

    commentaries also said that and bible versions.
    Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

    In the beginning was the word,…. That this is said not of the written word, but of the essential word of God, the Lord Jesus Christ, is clear, from all that is said from hence, to John 1:14 as that this word was in the beginning, was with God, and is God;

    Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

    1:1-5 The plainest reason why the Son of God is called the Word, seems to be, that as our words explain our minds to others, so was the Son of God sent in order to reveal his Father's mind to the world.

    John 1:1

    New Life Version (NLV)
    Christ Lived Before the World Was Made

    1 The Word (Christ) was in the beginning. The Word was with God. The Word was God.

    i gave you word for word kerwin and explanation from commentaries but you dont want to accept it. you are still proclaiming the bad news.
    the sheep of Christ hears his voice and you are not of them


    Jammin,

    There are men that have the opinion that the word is John is the name of Christ.  These men can be translators or those who comment on the meaning of Scripture.  In the case of the New Life Version the () tell you it is a comment.  It is not in Koine Greek which is deemed to be the original language and so the comment must be the translators.  I do not view either or the commentators you quoted as writing scripture.  

    I am looking fore actual Scripture that reveals Jesus was the word before he was conceived in Mary's inner parts.


    you dont accept version. you dont accept the bible. you dont accept commentaries. you are givinng me opinion.

    ok to be fair.
    i gave you versions and commentaries that say that the WORD in john 1.1 is Christ.

    ok i dare you.
    give me ANY SINGLE VERSION AND COMMENTARY THAT SAYS IN JOHN 1.1 THAT THE WORD IS THE HOLY SPIRIT.

    be true to yourself kerwin. you know what is the truth but you still insist that doctine of men.


    Jammin,

    You state that I am giving you my opinion when I am taking Scripture just as it is written and you are not.  I choose to test what you claim is true and point to the flaws I have found in your reasoning.  Your defense is to quote the opinions of men who are experts, basically priests of one Christology,  while other experts disagree with them.  

    I just demand a better quality of evidence from you.  The best that we have available is the Koine Greek versions of the New Testament and Hebrew versions of the Old Testament but the English word for word and idiom translations are acceptable.  Doctrinal comments and paraphrase lack too much creditability to establish the truth though they can be used for other reasons.

    I doubt you will find that the Messiah was called the word previous to when John said the word was made flesh as I believe I would have noticed it as I read.  I might have missed it but none have ever pointed it out in my discussions.  

    On the other hand it is written that a time would come when God would write his word on the minds of his people and place it in their hearts.  In that way the word was made flesh.

    Jeremiah 31:33
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    33 but this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    Jeremiah 31:33
    American Standard Version (ASV)

    33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith Jehovah: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people:

    Jeremiah 31:33
    New International Version (NIV)

    33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
       after that time,” declares the Lord.
    “I will put my law in their minds
       and write it on their hearts.
    I will be their God,
       and they will be my people.

    #359606
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 13 2013,12:31)

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 12 2013,15:14)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 13 2013,03:04)

    1.  Are you telling me that the SAYINGS of God were both with God and were God in the beginning?  

    2.  Are you telling me that the SAYINGS of God actually became a flesh and blood man, who dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten?  

    3.  Are you telling me that it is the SAYINGS of God who will ride a white horse and do battle against Satan and his hordes?


    I might have to qualify how, but the answer to those questions is yes.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    By all means, qualify for me.  But please keep your qualifications organized – as in one separate answer for each of the three separate questions.


    Mike:

    Number 1, the sayings of God were with Him as a plan for His creation, and it is through this plan which was to give us His only begotten Son to be the propitiation for our sins, and to reconcile us unto Himself, He manifests His character. God is love.

    #2, The prophetic sayings of God relative to Jesus became a reality when Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and born into this world of the virgin Mary.

    #3: Jesus has been Lord and Christ, and it is through the Word of God that he will make war and judge humanity.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #359608
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 15 2013,02:56)
    Hi Wakeup:

    And so, you agree that in the verses in Revelation 4, it is God who is shown sitting on the throne, and if you agree, then,

    Quote

    Rev 4:11

    Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

    Who is the creator?

    Jesus is shown taking the seven seals out of His hand when he finished his ministry and was exalted to the right hand of God, but yes, the same Word that is within Jesus is within God since it originated from Him, and it is God who dwells within Jesus by His Spirit and by His Word.

    Jesus is at the right hand of God as head of the church, and God sits on the throne as the head of Jesus.

    Quote

    Hbr 1:1

    God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

    Hbr 1:2

    Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    Hbr 1:3

    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    Quote

    Rev 6:16

    And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

    Rev 6:17

    For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty.

    God *IS* the source of all power,his will be done.
    When God speaks; His word shall not return empty.
    All things are created through his Word; who is now called
    Jesus/the Son of man/the Son of David,of the root of David.
    At the coming he will be called; The Word Of God.
    Now Jesus is given all authority,and power.
    For he will rule for a 1000yrs.

    wakeup.

    #359620
    jammin
    Participant

    Kerwin,
    I gave you version and commentaries that say that the word in john 1:1 is christ. Im askng you, can you give me version and commentary that will say that the word in jn1:1 is the holy spirit?

    #359621
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 15 2013,09:19)
    Kerwin,
    I gave you version and commentaries that say that the word in john 1:1 is christ. Im askng you, can you give me version and commentary that will say that the word in jn1:1 is the holy spirit?


    Jammin,

    You have me confused with someone else or you remember something I tested some time ago. I am telling you that John is literally waxing poetic about the word just like the same is done in other passages.

    John 1:1
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    John 1:1
    American Standard Version (ASV)

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    John 1:1
    New International Version (NIV)

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    My opinion is to point out that John means what he states even while he indulges in poetry.

    #359629
    jammin
    Participant

    Therefore you cnt give me any single version or cmentary that say that the word in jn1:1 i rs the hs. Be true to yourself kerwin. How cn u say that your belief is the truth if you cnt supsupport it with docs? Does it make sense?

    #359633
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 15 2013,12:59)
    Therefore you cnt give me any single version or cmentary that say that the word in jn1:1 i rs the hs. Be true to yourself kerwin. How cn u say that your belief is the truth if you cnt supsupport it with docs? Does it make sense?


    Jammin,

    I am not claiming that the word is the holy spirit.  I am claiming the the word is God's Law, Promises, Plans, and whatever else is of the like.  The context determines the details.

    There are three elements recorded in Genesis as being at the creation and they are God; his word, defined as above; and the holy spirit.  The Christ is not there.  

    Hebrews 11:3
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

    John 1:3
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    Both verses are essentially saying the same thing as they wax poetic.  The accounts of creation in Genesis also state the same.

    #359640
    942767
    Participant

    Hi Wakeup:

    You say:

    Quote
    At the coming he will be called; The Word Of God.

    Well, not exactly. This is what the scripture states:

    Quote

    Rev 19:13

    And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    “His name” here refers to the character he exemplifies because he has obeyed the Word of God without sin even unto death on the cross, and because it is through that Word that he will judge humanity.

    Quote

    Jhn 12:48
    He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

    But I have no problem with saying that he is the Word of God since he obeyed God's Word without sin even unto death on the cross, and it is through this Word that we have salvation in him, as long as we understand that the Word of God did not originate from him, but from God. He said that he was the bread of life which came down from heaven, and so, we understand that his body was conceived of the Holy Ghost and born of the virgin Mary, and that through the Word of God his spirit was formed in this life as he obeyed the Word of God unto death on the cross. And so, the scripture states that he was made “a life giving spirit”.

    Quote

    1Jo 5:9

    If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son

    1Jo 5:10

    He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

    1Jo 5:11

    And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #359655
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 16 2013,10:11)
    Hi Wakeup:

    You say:

    Quote
    At the coming he will be called; The Word Of God.

    Well, not exactly.  This is what the scripture states:

    Quote

    Rev 19:13

    And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    “His name” here refers to the character he exemplifies because he has obeyed the Word of God without sin even unto death on the cross, and because it is through that Word that he will judge humanity.

    Quote

    Jhn 12:48
    He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

    But I have no problem with saying that he is the Word of God since he obeyed God's Word without sin even unto death on the cross, and it is through this Word that we have salvation in him, as long as we understand that the Word of God did not originate from him, but from God.  He said that he was the bread of life which came down from heaven, and so, we understand that his body was conceived of the Holy Ghost and born of the virgin Mary, and that through the Word of God his spirit was formed in this life as he obeyed the Word of God unto death on the cross.  And so, the scripture states that he was made “a life giving spirit”.

    Quote

    1Jo 5:9

    If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son

    1Jo 5:10

    He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

    1Jo 5:11

    And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty.

    Please clarify this statement:

    AND THE *WORD* WAS **MADE FLESH**

    A man/spokesman, was not *created* to carry the Word of God,
    But the Word was *MADE* flesh.From spirit Word to flesh.
    The Word was *NOT* put in the flesh,just to carry the Word.

    I know them who teaches this same doctrine.
    Your statement also contradicts this scripture.(below).

    Micah 5:2 But thou, *Bethlehem Ephratah*,
    though thou be little among the thousands of Judah,
    ***yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel***;
    ***whose goings forth have been from of old***,
    ***from everlasting***.

    THIS SO CALLED SPOKESMAN DOES NOT FIT THESE WORDS, **FROM OF OLD** AND**FROM EVERLASTING**.

    Need to rephrase micah5:2: Maybe already done so.
    And this have they done over and over again,for their own
    gain.

    wakeup.

    #359660
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 16 2013,23:34)

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 16 2013,10:11)
    Hi Wakeup:

    You say:

    Quote
    At the coming he will be called; The Word Of God.

    Well, not exactly.  This is what the scripture states:

    Quote

    Rev 19:13

    And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    “His name” here refers to the character he exemplifies because he has obeyed the Word of God without sin even unto death on the cross, and because it is through that Word that he will judge humanity.

    Quote

    Jhn 12:48
    He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

    But I have no problem with saying that he is the Word of God since he obeyed God's Word without sin even unto death on the cross, and it is through this Word that we have salvation in him, as long as we understand that the Word of God did not originate from him, but from God.  He said that he was the bread of life which came down from heaven, and so, we understand that his body was conceived of the Holy Ghost and born of the virgin Mary, and that through the Word of God his spirit was formed in this life as he obeyed the Word of God unto death on the cross.  And so, the scripture states that he was made “a life giving spirit”.

    Quote

    1Jo 5:9

    If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son

    1Jo 5:10

    He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

    1Jo 5:11

    And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty.

    Please clarify this statement:

    AND THE *WORD* WAS **MADE FLESH**

    A man/spokesman, was not *created* to carry the Word of God,
    But the Word was *MADE* flesh.From spirit Word to flesh.
    The Word was *NOT* put in the flesh,just to carry the Word.

    I know them who teaches this same doctrine.  
    Your statement also contradicts this scripture.(below).

    Micah 5:2   But thou, *Bethlehem Ephratah*,
    though thou be little among the thousands of Judah,
    ***yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel***;
    ***whose goings forth have been from of old***,
    ***from everlasting***.

    THIS SO CALLED SPOKESMAN DOES NOT FIT THESE WORDS, **FROM OF OLD** AND**FROM EVERLASTING**.

    Need to rephrase micah5:2:  Maybe already done so.
    And this have they done over and over again,for their own
    gain.

    wakeup.


    Hi Wakeup:

    What that scripture means is that the prophetic Word of God relative to Jesus became a reality when he was born of the flesh.

    No, it does not contradict the scripture from Micah that you quoted. This scripture is also prophetic relative to the coming of the Messiah.

    And when Jesus was speaking of eating his flesh and drinking his blood, he made it clear that he was not talking about literally eating his flesh and drinking his blood, but he was speaking about the Word of God that he was speaking to humanity.

    He said:

    Quote

    Jhn 6:63

    It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

    And so, since you make the statement the Word was made flesh mean from spirit to flesh, in some other way than I have stated, that is that the prophetic Word of God became flesh. Please show me by the scriptures what that means.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #359666
    carmel
    Participant

    [quote=kerwin,Oct. 07 2013,18:30][/quote]

    Quote
    COLOSSIANS  IS DIRECTED  BOTH TO THE  BELIEVERS AND TO THE UNBELIEVERS!

    Colossians 1:1-2
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother, 2 to the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    It is clear you are the one that is “WRONG, WRONG , AND WRONG! WITH EVERY RESPECT” as your words disagree with the words of Scripture.

    Kerwin,

    IN A WAY, I AGREE, BUT, I DIDN'T MAKE MYSELF CLEAR ENOUGH WHAT I MEANT!

    I SAID: COLOSSIANS  IS DIRECTED  BOTH TO THE  BELIEVERS AND TO THE UNBELIEVERS!

    SO LET’S READ WHAT SCRIPTURES SAYS:

    2 To the saints and FAITHFULL brethren in Christ Jesus,…………..

    FROM THE ABOVE WE ARE AWARE THAT PAUL WAS TALKING TO THE SAINTS AND FAITHFULL BRETHREN AND YOU KNOW WHAT FAITHFULL MEANS!
    NOW IN YOUR OPINION, WHO IS A BELIEVER IN THE TRUTH?

    OBVIOUS THOSE WHO ARE FAITHFULL! NO?

    THOSE WHO PRACTICE CHRIST’S TEACHING! NO?

    SO IN FRONT OF HIM, PAUL HAD FAITHFUL SAINTS, TRUE BELIEVERS, AND UNFAITHFUL SAINTS, THEREFORE UNBELIEVERS!

    SO BELIEVERS ARE NOT BELIEVERS AT ALL IF THEY DON'T PRACTICE CHRIST'S TEACHING! THIS NEW MAN CONCEPT WHICH PAUL STRESSED ABOUT DUE TO THE FACT THAT SOME OF THEM WHERE NOT READY TO RADICALLY CHANGE THEMSELVES!

    ALSO  UNBELIEVERS ARE BELIEVERS WHEN THEY PRACTICE CHRIST'S TEACHING! THIS NEW MAN CONCEPT EVEN IF THEY ARE NOT CHRISTIANS, WHICH TO DAY ALL PEOPLE OF  GOOD WILL ARE DOING NO MATTER WHAT BELIEF THEY ARE SUBJECT TO!

    NOW READ:

    Luke 18: Two men went up into the temple to pray: the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11The Pharisee standing, prayed thus with himself: ………………..13And the publican, standing afar off, would not so much as lift up his eyes towards heaven; …………….14 I say to you, this man went down into his house justified rather that the other: because every one that exalteth himself, shall be humbled: and he that humbleth himself, shall be exalted.

    Matthew 8: 10And Jesus hearing this, marvelled; and said to them that followed him: Amen I say to you, I have not found so great faith in Israel. 11And I say to you that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven: 12But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into the exterior darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 13And Jesus said to the centurion:

    GO, AND AS THOUGH HAST BELIEVED,

    so be it done to thee. And the servant was healed at the same hour.

    THE ABOVE SCRIPTURES ARE CLEAR EXAMPLES OF WHAT I MEAN.

    IN LUKE’S,THE PUBLICAN, ALTHOUGH HE WAS NOT UNDER MOSES’ LAWS, AN ISRAELITE, ONE OF GOD’S PEOPLE, IS MORE JUSTIFIED IN FRONT OF GOD

    IN MATTHEW’S JESUS HIMSELF CONFIRMED THAT:

    many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven: 12BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE KINGDOM SHALL BE CAST OUT into the exterior darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    SO NOW YOU WOULD AGREE THAT ALTHOUGH COLOSSIANS WAS WRITTEN TO THE SAINTS IN COLOSSE, IT WAS  DIRECTED TO

    ALL MEN WHO WERE READY TO BE PART OF GOD’S KINGDOM WITHIN THE   NEW MAN CONCEPT OF THE SPIRIT AND TRUTH OF CHRIST IRRELEVANT FROM ANY RELIGIONS, BELIEFS, AND SO ON! SINCE GOD’S KINGDOM HAS MANY MANSIONS!

    REFLECT NOW ON :

    Colossians 1:6 Which is come unto you, as also it is IN THE WHOLE WORLD, and bringeth forth fruit and groweth, even as it doth in you, since the day you heard and knew the grace of GOD IN TRUTH.

    Colossians 1:8Who also hath manifested to us your love IN THE SPIRIT.

    OK SO IT IS EMPHASIZED  A BELIEVER IN THE SPIRIT AND TRUTH, NOT BECAUSE THEY WERE BAPTISED!

    READ AGAIN:

    Colossians 1:28 WHOM  WE PREACH, ADMONISHING EVERY MAN,  AND TEACHING EVERYMAN IN ALL WISDOM, THAT WE MAY PRESENT EVERY MAN PERFECT IN CHRIST JESUS.

    SO NO DOUBT, IT IS EMPHATICALLY CONFIRMED THAT PAUL WAS ADDRESSING THE SAINTS IN COLOSSE, BUT HE WAS DIRECTING HIS TEACHING TO  EVERY MAN

    BELIEVERS AND NON BELIEVERS!

    BAPTISED, AND NOT BAPTISED!

    ALSO, KEEP IN MIND THAT PAUL’S RESPONSIBILITY WAS NOT WATER BAPTISM , BUT CHRIST’S SPIRIT BAPTISM,  AND HE MADE THIS CLEAR IN:

    1Corinthians 1: 17 FOR CHRIST SENT ME NOT TO BAPTISE, but to preach the gospel:

    not in wisdom of speech, lest the cross of Christ should be made void.  

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #359667
    kerwin
    Participant

    Carmel,

    Quote
    ALSO  UNBELIEVERS ARE BELIEVERS WHEN THEY PRACTICE CHRIST'S TEACHING! THIS NEW MAN CONCEPT EVEN IF THEY ARE NOT CHRISTIANS, WHICH TO DAY ALL PEOPLE OF  GOOD WILL ARE DOING NO MATTER WHAT BELIEF THEY ARE SUBJECT TO!

    There is no way for a person to obtain the new man but through belief in Jesus Christ.  That is why he is the way the truth and the light.

    John 14:6
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    Romans 6:4-11
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    #359678
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 14 2013,14:41)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 13 2013,12:31)

    1.  Are you telling me that the SAYINGS of God were both with God and were God in the beginning?  

    2.  Are you telling me that the SAYINGS of God actually became a flesh and blood man, who dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten?  

    3.  Are you telling me that it is the SAYINGS of God who will ride a white horse and do battle against Satan and his hordes?


    Mike:

    Number 1, the sayings of God were with Him as a plan for His creation, and it is through this plan which was to give us His only begotten Son to be the propitiation for our sins, and to reconcile us unto Himself, He manifests His character. God is love.

    #2, The prophetic sayings of God relative to Jesus became a reality when Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and born into this world of the virgin Mary.

    #3:  Jesus has been Lord and Christ, and it is through the Word of God that he will make war and judge humanity.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Okay Marty. The following is “the word of God”:

    “Let there be light.”

    Are you saying that the aforementioned “saying of God” could “become flesh, and dwell on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son”?

    #359681
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 17 2013,03:34)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 16 2013,23:34)

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 16 2013,10:11)
    Hi Wakeup:

    You say:

    Quote
    At the coming he will be called; The Word Of God.

    Well, not exactly.  This is what the scripture states:

    Quote

    Rev 19:13

    And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    “His name” here refers to the character he exemplifies because he has obeyed the Word of God without sin even unto death on the cross, and because it is through that Word that he will judge humanity.

    Quote

    Jhn 12:48
    He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

    But I have no problem with saying that he is the Word of God since he obeyed God's Word without sin even unto death on the cross, and it is through this Word that we have salvation in him, as long as we understand that the Word of God did not originate from him, but from God.  He said that he was the bread of life which came down from heaven, and so, we understand that his body was conceived of the Holy Ghost and born of the virgin Mary, and that through the Word of God his spirit was formed in this life as he obeyed the Word of God unto death on the cross.  And so, the scripture states that he was made “a life giving spirit”.

    Quote

    1Jo 5:9

    If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son

    1Jo 5:10

    He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

    1Jo 5:11

    And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty.

    Please clarify this statement:

    AND THE *WORD* WAS **MADE FLESH**

    A man/spokesman, was not *created* to carry the Word of God,
    But the Word was *MADE* flesh.From spirit Word to flesh.
    The Word was *NOT* put in the flesh,just to carry the Word.

    I know them who teaches this same doctrine.  
    Your statement also contradicts this scripture.(below).

    Micah 5:2   But thou, *Bethlehem Ephratah*,
    though thou be little among the thousands of Judah,
    ***yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel***;
    ***whose goings forth have been from of old***,
    ***from everlasting***.

    THIS SO CALLED SPOKESMAN DOES NOT FIT THESE WORDS, **FROM OF OLD** AND**FROM EVERLASTING**.

    Need to rephrase micah5:2:  Maybe already done so.
    And this have they done over and over again,for their own
    gain.

    wakeup.


    Hi Wakeup:

    What that scripture means is that the prophetic Word of God relative to Jesus became a reality when he was born of the flesh.

    No, it does not contradict the scripture from Micah that you quoted. This scripture is also prophetic relative to the coming of the Messiah.

    And when Jesus was speaking of eating his flesh and drinking his blood, he made it clear that he was not talking about literally eating his flesh and drinking his blood, but he was speaking about the Word of God that he was speaking to humanity.

    He said:

    Quote

    Jhn 6:63

    It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

    And so, since you make the statement the Word was made flesh mean from spirit to flesh, in some other way than I have stated, that is that the prophetic Word of God became flesh.  Please show me by the scriptures what that means.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    [QUOTE]
    What that scripture means is that the prophetic Word of God relative to Jesus became a reality when he was born of the flesh.
    No, it does not contradict the scripture from Micah that you quoted. This scripture is also prophetic relative to the coming of the Messiah.(unquote).

    —————————————————————–
    I KNOW HOW THINGS WORK: POETIC/SYMBOLIC/PROPHETIC; THIS IS THE ESCAPE ROUTE
    ALWAYS USED.
    Micah 5:2 does not need **any lengthy explanations** and twisting and spinning to force it to work. Not possible.
    —————————————————————–

    (QUOTE):
    And when Jesus was speaking of eating his flesh and drinking his blood, he made it clear that he was not talking about literally eating his flesh and drinking his blood, but he was speaking about the Word of God that he was speaking to humanity.(UNGUOTE).

    —————————————————————–
    THAT'S WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG.
    WE NEED TO EAT HIS WORDS IN SCRIPTURE; UNCORRUPTED.
    MEANING; SEEK.
    —————————————————————–

    (QUOTE):
    He said:
    Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.(UNQUOTE):

    —————————————————————-
    AGREE.
    —————————————————————-

    (QUOTE).
    And so, since you make the statement the Word was made flesh mean from spirit to flesh, in some other way than I have stated, that is that the prophetic Word of God became flesh. Please show me by the scriptures what that means.
    (UNQUOTE).

    THE WORD WAS **MADE** FLESH.
    THE SAME WORD****HAD GLORY WITH GOD****
    ****BEFORE**** THE WORLD WAS.(prophetic??)

    HE CREATED ALL THINGS; *WITHOUT HIM* WAS NOT **ANYTHING** MADE THAT WAS MADE.

    *IF YOU*; BELIEVE THAT MICHA'EL IS THE MESSIAH.
    THE SON OF GOD. YOU NEED SOME EXPLANATION TO DO.
    FOR MICHA'EL WAS MADE(CREATED)BY THE WORD ALSO.

    wakeup.

    #359688
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 17 2013,11:30)

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 14 2013,14:41)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 13 2013,12:31)

    1.  Are you telling me that the SAYINGS of God were both with God and were God in the beginning?  

    2.  Are you telling me that the SAYINGS of God actually became a flesh and blood man, who dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten?  

    3.  Are you telling me that it is the SAYINGS of God who will ride a white horse and do battle against Satan and his hordes?


    Mike:

    Number 1, the sayings of God were with Him as a plan for His creation, and it is through this plan which was to give us His only begotten Son to be the propitiation for our sins, and to reconcile us unto Himself, He manifests His character. God is love.

    #2, The prophetic sayings of God relative to Jesus became a reality when Jesus was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and born into this world of the virgin Mary.

    #3:  Jesus has been Lord and Christ, and it is through the Word of God that he will make war and judge humanity.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Okay Marty.  The following is “the word of God”:

    “Let there be light.”

    Are you saying that the aforementioned “saying of God” could “become flesh, and dwell on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son”?


    yes

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