John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 14,281 through 14,300 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
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  • #359436
    942767
    Participant

    Hi Wakeup:

    Yes, God spoke through Elijah, he was a prophet, and He spoke through John the Baptist of whom it was said by Jesus that he was Elijah who was to come as a forerunner to his ministry, meaning that John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah, and right God spoke through Jesus just as he did through any prophet, but no prophet other than Jesus obeyed God without sin unto death on the cross, but no, Jesus is not the creator. God created all things by him and for him, meaning that it would be through Jesus his plan for humanity would be fulfilled, and he is God's heir, but no, he said that he could do nothing of himself, and he said that it was the Father doing the works through him.

    And the Word is not the “image of God”. The Word is God because it defines His character, and His Word originates from him. The way that any man can become like God in the spirit is to obey his Word in one's daily life. And this is the way that Jesus became “the express image of God's person”. So, through his life we have seen God's character manifest to humanity, but he is not the origin of the Word.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #359440
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 08 2013,19:51)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 08 2013,12:43)

    John 1:1

    Contemporary English Version (CEV)
    The Word of Life

    1 In the beginning was the one
      who is called the Word.
    The Word was with God
       and was truly God.

    14 The Word became
    a human being
       and lived here with us.
    We saw his true glory,
    the glory of the only Son
       of the Father.
    From him all the kindness
    and all the truth of God
       have come down to us.

    i answered your question. Jesus is called the Word before he became human.

    now answer mine, who is the Word in rev 19.13?
    1. jesus
    2. kerwin

    choose one boy


    Jammin,

    This is what wikipedia states about the CEV:

    Quote
    Moreover, the CEV often paraphrases in order to make the underlying point of a passage clear, rather than directly translating the wording.

    This introduces a greater chance of error due to bias than direct translation as the translator is interpreting their perception of the idea of the whole of what they are paraphrasing rather than just one word.

    The sum of your claim is since the translators believe it  must  be translated and interpreted this way then it must be true.  

    My answer is that I do not find them creditable and I am asking for a creditable source to support your claim.

    As far as I know, by the time Revelations 19:13 rolls around we both agree that Jesus is called by the name of the word.  I have been telling you but you act as if we disagree.  Our disagreement is when he was first called by the name of the word.


    that is just an opinion of wikipedia.
    cev is not the only one who says that the Word in john 1.1 is Christ.

    commentaries also said that and bible versions.
    Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

    In the beginning was the word,…. That this is said not of the written word, but of the essential word of God, the Lord Jesus Christ, is clear, from all that is said from hence, to John 1:14 as that this word was in the beginning, was with God, and is God;

    Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

    1:1-5 The plainest reason why the Son of God is called the Word, seems to be, that as our words explain our minds to others, so was the Son of God sent in order to reveal his Father's mind to the world.

    John 1:1

    New Life Version (NLV)
    Christ Lived Before the World Was Made

    1 The Word (Christ) was in the beginning. The Word was with God. The Word was God.

    i gave you word for word kerwin and explanation from commentaries but you dont want to accept it. you are still proclaiming the bad news.
    the sheep of Christ hears his voice and you are not of them

    #359441
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 09 2013,11:33)
    Hi Wakeup:

    Yes, God spoke through Elijah, he was a prophet, and He spoke through John the Baptist of whom it was said by Jesus that he was Elijah who was to come as a forerunner to his ministry, meaning that John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah, and right God spoke through Jesus just as he did through any prophet, but no prophet other than Jesus obeyed God without sin unto death on the cross, but no, Jesus is not the creator.  God created all things by him and for him, meaning that it would be through Jesus his plan for humanity would be fulfilled, and he is God's heir, but no, he said that he could do nothing of himself, and he said that it was the Father doing the works through him.

    And the Word is not the “image of God”.  The Word is God because it defines His character, and His Word originates from him.  The way that any man can become like God in the spirit is to obey his Word in one's daily life.   And this is the way that Jesus became “the express image of God's person”.  So, through his life we have seen God's character manifest to humanity, but he is not the origin of the Word.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty.

    God spoke *TO* the prophets.

    Jeremiah 1:4 Then the word of the LORD *came unto me*, saying,
    Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
    Jeremiah 1:6 **Then said I**, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child. (a verbal conversation).

    Colossians 1:15 Who is ***the image*** of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    quote:
    The Word of God originates from God.
    I agree with this.

    Only Jesus is the *Word of God*
    God spoke through him;in his mind.

    wakeup.

    #359454
    942767
    Participant

    Hi Wakeup:

    The scriptures that you quote from Jeremiah is God speaking to Jeremiah, but God spoke to the nation of Israel through Jeremiah warning them of the impending judgment to come if they did not repent.  

    You say that Only Jesus is the Word of God?  The scripture in Hebrews 1 would surely disagree with you on this assessment, and Jesus is God's spokesman if God spoke through him, but God also spoke through the prophets, and so they also were God's spokesmen, but he, Jesus, is the “express image of God's person” because he obeyed the Word of God without sin unto death on the cross, and so, he became the “image of God” through the application of God's Word in his daily living, and so, in that sense he is the Word of God, but he was not the “Word” in John 1, that “life giving spirit” was formed within him through obedience to God's Word.

    The Word pertains to him in John 1, and the Word is God in John 1c because it is through His Word that God reveals his character, and he gave us Jesus in order to reconcile us unto Himself, but Jesus had to be born into this world and become the express image of his person.  He was born an infant man child, and at the age of 12 we get a glimpse of him learning the Word of God and discussing the Word with the scribes in the synagogue, and then being anointed for his ministry to humanity at the age of 30, and then successfully obeying God without sin unto death on the cross.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #359457
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 08 2013,18:09)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 08 2013,11:17)

    1.  Are you telling me that a SAYING of God was both with God and was God in the beginning?  

    2.  Are you telling me that a SAYING of God actually became a flesh and blood man, who dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten?  

    3.  Are you telling me that it is a SAYING of God who will ride a white horse and do battle against Satan and his hordes?


    no, no & no


    Hmmmmmm…………..

    Your “NO” answers don't align with this following quote of what you said on page 1002:

    “I don't know what you don't understand about the Word of God were the sayings of God. “

    Please explain.

    #359471
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 10 2013,03:55)
    Hi Wakeup:

    The scriptures that you quote from Jeremiah is God speaking to Jeremiah, but God spoke to the nation of Israel through Jeremiah warning them of the impending judgment to come if they did not repent.  

    You say that Only Jesus is the Word of God?  The scripture in Hebrews 1 would surely disagree with you on this assessment, and Jesus is God's spokesman if God spoke through him, but God also spoke through the prophets, and so they also were God's spokesmen, but he, Jesus, is the “express image of God's person” because he obeyed the Word of God without sin unto death on the cross, and so, he became the “image of God” through the application of God's Word in his daily living, and so, in that sense he is the Word of God, but he was not the “Word” in John 1, that “life giving spirit” was formed within him through obedience to God's Word.

    The Word pertains to him in John 1, and the Word is God in John 1c because it is through His Word that God reveals his character, and he gave us Jesus in order to reconcile us unto Himself, but Jesus had to be born into this world and become the express image of his person.  He was born an infant man child, and at the age of 12 we get a glimpse of him learning the Word of God and discussing the Word with the scribes in the synagogue, and then being anointed for his ministry to humanity at the age of 30, and then successfully obeying God without sin unto death on the cross.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty.

    That only means that there is *God and his spokesman*
    in heaven. Two different entities.This can not be.

    BESIDE ME;THERE IS NO SAVIOUR.
    BESIDE ME THERE IS NO GOD.
    GOD IS BY HIMSELF,AND HIS WORD/BREATH, IN HIM.

    1.The Word made all that is made.
    2.Jesus made all that is made.
    3.A spokesman can not give life,
    and was not the tree of life in the garden.
    4.The spokesman can not be the breath of God.
    5. Psalms 33:6 By the WORD of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them
    ***by the BREATH OF HIS MOUTH***.
    6.God's breath was always in him from everlasting.

    Jesus is the WORD OF GOD(BREATH) MADE FLESH.
    I created all things by *MY SELF*.

    And so is the Holy bible: the WORD OF GOD *IN PRINT*.
    To come to God;we need to go
    **THROUH THE SCRIPTURES**ONLY;
    can not come to God through some other means.

    wakeup.

    #359482
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 10 2013,13:40)

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 10 2013,03:55)
    Hi Wakeup:

    The scriptures that you quote from Jeremiah is God speaking to Jeremiah, but God spoke to the nation of Israel through Jeremiah warning them of the impending judgment to come if they did not repent.  

    You say that Only Jesus is the Word of God?  The scripture in Hebrews 1 would surely disagree with you on this assessment, and Jesus is God's spokesman if God spoke through him, but God also spoke through the prophets, and so they also were God's spokesmen, but he, Jesus, is the “express image of God's person” because he obeyed the Word of God without sin unto death on the cross, and so, he became the “image of God” through the application of God's Word in his daily living, and so, in that sense he is the Word of God, but he was not the “Word” in John 1, that “life giving spirit” was formed within him through obedience to God's Word.

    The Word pertains to him in John 1, and the Word is God in John 1c because it is through His Word that God reveals his character, and he gave us Jesus in order to reconcile us unto Himself, but Jesus had to be born into this world and become the express image of his person.  He was born an infant man child, and at the age of 12 we get a glimpse of him learning the Word of God and discussing the Word with the scribes in the synagogue, and then being anointed for his ministry to humanity at the age of 30, and then successfully obeying God without sin unto death on the cross.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty.

    That only means that there is *God and his spokesman*
    in heaven. Two different entities.This can not be.

    BESIDE ME;THERE IS NO SAVIOUR.
    BESIDE ME THERE IS NO GOD.
    GOD IS BY HIMSELF,AND HIS WORD/BREATH, IN HIM.

    1.The Word made all that is made.
    2.Jesus made all that is made.
    3.A spokesman can not give life,
      and was not the tree of life in the garden.
    4.The spokesman can not be the breath of God.
    5. Psalms 33:6   By the WORD of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them
    ***by the BREATH OF HIS MOUTH***.
    6.God's breath was always in him from everlasting.

    Jesus is the WORD OF GOD(BREATH) MADE FLESH.
    I created all things by *MY SELF*.

    And so is the Holy bible: the WORD OF GOD *IN PRINT*.
    To come to God;we need to go
    **THROUH THE SCRIPTURES**ONLY;
    can not come to God through some other means.

    wakeup.


    No Wakeup, Jesus is not the creator. God created everything by His Word. And yes besides him there is no savior. He is the one that gave us His Only Begotten Son.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #359483
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 09 2013,03:56)
    Kerwin.

    The wikipedia has not been revealed by the Holy Spirit
    all the mysteries.
    No man knows the son but the Father,and no man knows the Father but the son;
    AND HE TO WHOM THE SON WILL REVEAL HIM.

    What is the name of your word??

    wakeup.


    Wakeup,

    I was not using wikipedia for those maters, I was using it to point out that the CEV creditability is more questionable than word for word translations.

    The name of the word is word. The word's name is above every other name and Jesus has inherited it.

    That is both why they word was made flesh and Jesus inherited a name that is above every other name.

    #359484
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 09 2013,07:25)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 08 2013,19:51)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 08 2013,12:43)

    John 1:1

    Contemporary English Version (CEV)
    The Word of Life

    1 In the beginning was the one
      who is called the Word.
    The Word was with God
       and was truly God.

    14 The Word became
    a human being
       and lived here with us.
    We saw his true glory,
    the glory of the only Son
       of the Father.
    From him all the kindness
    and all the truth of God
       have come down to us.

    i answered your question. Jesus is called the Word before he became human.

    now answer mine, who is the Word in rev 19.13?
    1. jesus
    2. kerwin

    choose one boy


    Jammin,

    This is what wikipedia states about the CEV:

    Quote
    Moreover, the CEV often paraphrases in order to make the underlying point of a passage clear, rather than directly translating the wording.

    This introduces a greater chance of error due to bias than direct translation as the translator is interpreting their perception of the idea of the whole of what they are paraphrasing rather than just one word.

    The sum of your claim is since the translators believe it  must  be translated and interpreted this way then it must be true.  

    My answer is that I do not find them creditable and I am asking for a creditable source to support your claim.

    As far as I know, by the time Revelations 19:13 rolls around we both agree that Jesus is called by the name of the word.  I have been telling you but you act as if we disagree.  Our disagreement is when he was first called by the name of the word.


    that is just an opinion of wikipedia.
    cev is not the only one who says that the Word in john 1.1 is Christ.

    commentaries also said that and bible versions.
    Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

    In the beginning was the word,…. That this is said not of the written word, but of the essential word of God, the Lord Jesus Christ, is clear, from all that is said from hence, to John 1:14 as that this word was in the beginning, was with God, and is God;

    Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

    1:1-5 The plainest reason why the Son of God is called the Word, seems to be, that as our words explain our minds to others, so was the Son of God sent in order to reveal his Father's mind to the world.

    John 1:1

    New Life Version (NLV)
    Christ Lived Before the World Was Made

    1 The Word (Christ) was in the beginning. The Word was with God. The Word was God.

    i gave you word for word kerwin and explanation from commentaries but you dont want to accept it. you are still proclaiming the bad news.
    the sheep of Christ hears his voice and you are not of them


    Jammin,

    There are men that have the opinion that the word is John is the name of Christ. These men can be translators or those who comment on the meaning of Scripture. In the case of the New Life Version the () tell you it is a comment. It is not in Koine Greek which is deemed to be the original language and so the comment must be the translators. I do not view either or the commentators you quoted as writing scripture.

    I am looking fore actual Scripture that reveals Jesus was the word before he was conceived in Mary's inner parts.

    #359490
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 11 2013,02:39)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 10 2013,13:40)

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 10 2013,03:55)
    Hi Wakeup:

    The scriptures that you quote from Jeremiah is God speaking to Jeremiah, but God spoke to the nation of Israel through Jeremiah warning them of the impending judgment to come if they did not repent.  

    You say that Only Jesus is the Word of God?  The scripture in Hebrews 1 would surely disagree with you on this assessment, and Jesus is God's spokesman if God spoke through him, but God also spoke through the prophets, and so they also were God's spokesmen, but he, Jesus, is the “express image of God's person” because he obeyed the Word of God without sin unto death on the cross, and so, he became the “image of God” through the application of God's Word in his daily living, and so, in that sense he is the Word of God, but he was not the “Word” in John 1, that “life giving spirit” was formed within him through obedience to God's Word.

    The Word pertains to him in John 1, and the Word is God in John 1c because it is through His Word that God reveals his character, and he gave us Jesus in order to reconcile us unto Himself, but Jesus had to be born into this world and become the express image of his person.  He was born an infant man child, and at the age of 12 we get a glimpse of him learning the Word of God and discussing the Word with the scribes in the synagogue, and then being anointed for his ministry to humanity at the age of 30, and then successfully obeying God without sin unto death on the cross.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty.

    That only means that there is *God and his spokesman*
    in heaven. Two different entities.This can not be.

    BESIDE ME;THERE IS NO SAVIOUR.
    BESIDE ME THERE IS NO GOD.
    GOD IS BY HIMSELF,AND HIS WORD/BREATH, IN HIM.

    1.The Word made all that is made.
    2.Jesus made all that is made.
    3.A spokesman can not give life,
      and was not the tree of life in the garden.
    4.The spokesman can not be the breath of God.
    5. Psalms 33:6   By the WORD of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them
    ***by the BREATH OF HIS MOUTH***.
    6.God's breath was always in him from everlasting.

    Jesus is the WORD OF GOD(BREATH) MADE FLESH.
    I created all things by *MY SELF*.

    And so is the Holy bible: the WORD OF GOD *IN PRINT*.
    To come to God;we need to go
    **THROUH THE SCRIPTURES**ONLY;
    can not come to God through some other means.

    wakeup.


    No Wakeup, Jesus is not the creator.  God created everything by His Word.  And yes besides him there is no savior.  He is the one that gave us His Only Begotten Son.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty.

    Colossians 1:16.
    ***For by him were all things created***,
    that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers:
    *** all things were created by him, and for him***:

    Colossians 1:17 ***And he is before all things***,
    ***and by him all things consist***.

    Refering to Jesus:

    Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

    Refering to God:
    Here lies the mystery to the world.

    No one can deny this truth.

    wakeup.

    #359491
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 11 2013,05:17)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 09 2013,03:56)
    Kerwin.

    The wikipedia has not been revealed by the Holy Spirit
    all the mysteries.
    No man knows the son but the Father,and no man knows the Father but the son;
    AND HE TO WHOM THE SON WILL REVEAL HIM.

    What is the name of your word??

    wakeup.


    Wakeup,

    I was not using wikipedia for those maters, I was using it to point out that the CEV creditability is more questionable than word for word translations.

    The name of the word is word.  The word's name is above every other name and Jesus has inherited it.

    That is both why they word was made flesh and Jesus inherited a name that is above every other name.


    Kerwin.

    The Word of God is a *living* Word,with all wisdom to create.
    All are created by his wisdom and power.
    He is the Word of God, brought forth
    out of God, in the form of God's image.
    They were communicating before the world was.

    He walked on earth,and his works and teachings,and actions,
    images God, His Father.
    Jesus is the *only man* that have been in heaven.
    He said that he is going back to his Father; meaning he has *come from* his Father.

    wakeup.

    #359517
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 10 2013,10:57)

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 08 2013,18:09)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 08 2013,11:17)

    1.  Are you telling me that a SAYING of God was both with God and was God in the beginning?  

    2.  Are you telling me that a SAYING of God actually became a flesh and blood man, who dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten?  

    3.  Are you telling me that it is a SAYING of God who will ride a white horse and do battle against Satan and his hordes?


    no, no & no


    Hmmmmmm…………..

    Your “NO” answers don't align with this following quote of what you said on page 1002:

    “I don't know what you don't understand about the Word of God were the sayings of God. “

    Please explain.


    You said “a saying of God”, and that is not what is not what I said.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #359518
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 11 2013,09:00)

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 11 2013,02:39)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 10 2013,13:40)

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 10 2013,03:55)
    Hi Wakeup:

    The scriptures that you quote from Jeremiah is God speaking to Jeremiah, but God spoke to the nation of Israel through Jeremiah warning them of the impending judgment to come if they did not repent.  

    You say that Only Jesus is the Word of God?  The scripture in Hebrews 1 would surely disagree with you on this assessment, and Jesus is God's spokesman if God spoke through him, but God also spoke through the prophets, and so they also were God's spokesmen, but he, Jesus, is the “express image of God's person” because he obeyed the Word of God without sin unto death on the cross, and so, he became the “image of God” through the application of God's Word in his daily living, and so, in that sense he is the Word of God, but he was not the “Word” in John 1, that “life giving spirit” was formed within him through obedience to God's Word.

    The Word pertains to him in John 1, and the Word is God in John 1c because it is through His Word that God reveals his character, and he gave us Jesus in order to reconcile us unto Himself, but Jesus had to be born into this world and become the express image of his person.  He was born an infant man child, and at the age of 12 we get a glimpse of him learning the Word of God and discussing the Word with the scribes in the synagogue, and then being anointed for his ministry to humanity at the age of 30, and then successfully obeying God without sin unto death on the cross.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty.

    That only means that there is *God and his spokesman*
    in heaven. Two different entities.This can not be.

    BESIDE ME;THERE IS NO SAVIOUR.
    BESIDE ME THERE IS NO GOD.
    GOD IS BY HIMSELF,AND HIS WORD/BREATH, IN HIM.

    1.The Word made all that is made.
    2.Jesus made all that is made.
    3.A spokesman can not give life,
      and was not the tree of life in the garden.
    4.The spokesman can not be the breath of God.
    5. Psalms 33:6   By the WORD of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them
    ***by the BREATH OF HIS MOUTH***.
    6.God's breath was always in him from everlasting.

    Jesus is the WORD OF GOD(BREATH) MADE FLESH.
    I created all things by *MY SELF*.

    And so is the Holy bible: the WORD OF GOD *IN PRINT*.
    To come to God;we need to go
    **THROUH THE SCRIPTURES**ONLY;
    can not come to God through some other means.

    wakeup.


    No Wakeup, Jesus is not the creator.  God created everything by His Word.  And yes besides him there is no savior.  He is the one that gave us His Only Begotten Son.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty.

    Colossians 1:16.
      ***For by him were all things created***,
    that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers:
    *** all things were created by him, and for him***:

     Colossians 1:17   ***And he is before all things***,
    ***and by him all things consist***.

    Refering to Jesus:

    Revelation 4:11   Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

    Refering to God:
    Here lies the mystery to the world.

    No one can deny this truth.

    wakeup.


    Hi Wakeup:

    God created everything that he created knowing that a particular point in time, His plan for humanity would be fulfilled through Jesus, and He created every thing that He created for him. Jesus is God's Heir, and we are joint heirs with him.

    This is what the verses that you quoted from Colossians mean. These verses do not say that Jesus is the Creator.

    And if you will read Revelation 4 & 5 in context you will see that Revelation 4:11 refers to God not to Jesus.

    Quote

    Rev 4:8

    And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

    Revelation 4:11 refers to Him who sits on the throne who is the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY. This is not Jesus. He is not God.

    And the following verses show Jesus coming to take the seven seals from His hand:

    Quote

    Rev 5:6

    And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

    Rev 5:7

    And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #359519
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 12 2013,12:58)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 11 2013,09:00)

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 11 2013,02:39)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 10 2013,13:40)

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 10 2013,03:55)
    Hi Wakeup:

    The scriptures that you quote from Jeremiah is God speaking to Jeremiah, but God spoke to the nation of Israel through Jeremiah warning them of the impending judgment to come if they did not repent.  

    You say that Only Jesus is the Word of God?  The scripture in Hebrews 1 would surely disagree with you on this assessment, and Jesus is God's spokesman if God spoke through him, but God also spoke through the prophets, and so they also were God's spokesmen, but he, Jesus, is the “express image of God's person” because he obeyed the Word of God without sin unto death on the cross, and so, he became the “image of God” through the application of God's Word in his daily living, and so, in that sense he is the Word of God, but he was not the “Word” in John 1, that “life giving spirit” was formed within him through obedience to God's Word.

    The Word pertains to him in John 1, and the Word is God in John 1c because it is through His Word that God reveals his character, and he gave us Jesus in order to reconcile us unto Himself, but Jesus had to be born into this world and become the express image of his person.  He was born an infant man child, and at the age of 12 we get a glimpse of him learning the Word of God and discussing the Word with the scribes in the synagogue, and then being anointed for his ministry to humanity at the age of 30, and then successfully obeying God without sin unto death on the cross.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty.

    That only means that there is *God and his spokesman*
    in heaven. Two different entities.This can not be.

    BESIDE ME;THERE IS NO SAVIOUR.
    BESIDE ME THERE IS NO GOD.
    GOD IS BY HIMSELF,AND HIS WORD/BREATH, IN HIM.

    1.The Word made all that is made.
    2.Jesus made all that is made.
    3.A spokesman can not give life,
      and was not the tree of life in the garden.
    4.The spokesman can not be the breath of God.
    5. Psalms 33:6   By the WORD of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them
    ***by the BREATH OF HIS MOUTH***.
    6.God's breath was always in him from everlasting.

    Jesus is the WORD OF GOD(BREATH) MADE FLESH.
    I created all things by *MY SELF*.

    And so is the Holy bible: the WORD OF GOD *IN PRINT*.
    To come to God;we need to go
    **THROUH THE SCRIPTURES**ONLY;
    can not come to God through some other means.

    wakeup.


    No Wakeup, Jesus is not the creator.  God created everything by His Word.  And yes besides him there is no savior.  He is the one that gave us His Only Begotten Son.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty.

    Colossians 1:16.
      ***For by him were all things created***,
    that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers:
    *** all things were created by him, and for him***:

     Colossians 1:17   ***And he is before all things***,
    ***and by him all things consist***.

    Refering to Jesus:

    Revelation 4:11   Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

    Refering to God:
    Here lies the mystery to the world.

    No one can deny this truth.

    wakeup.


    Hi Wakeup:

    God created everything that he created knowing that a particular point in time, His plan for humanity would be fulfilled through Jesus, and He created every thing that He created for him.  Jesus is God's Heir, and we are joint heirs with him.

    This is what the verses that you quoted from Colossians mean.  These verses do not say that Jesus is the Creator.

    And if you will read Revelation 4 & 5 in context you will see that Revelation 4:11 refers to God not to Jesus.

    Quote

    Rev 4:8

    And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

    Revelation 4:11 refers to Him who sits on the throne who is the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY.  This is not Jesus.  He is not God.

    And the following verses show Jesus coming to take the seven seals from His hand:

    Quote

    Rev 5:6

    And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

    Rev 5:7

    And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty.

    What is it that you can not see?
    All things were made by the Word of God.
    The power comes from God;of course.
    By the breath of God's mouth were all things made.
    Breath/Word.LIVING WORD,WITH ALL WISDOM.

    Jesus is the *Word of God*/breath,made flesh.
    All things were made by Jesus/the Word/breath.
    God does the thinking,and the word comes out of his mouth.
    But his Word was next to God,because in the beginning God brought him out; gave him a form in his own image.

    You think first before you say anything dont you?
    You think first before you act dont You.

    It's just that you can not comprehend, that God can
    bring out his living word, and give him a body/shape.

    wakeup.

    #359523
    kerwin
    Participant

    Wakeup,

    Quote
    Jesus is the *only man* that have been in heaven.

    A common misunderstanding that seems to be common on this website.

    John 3:13
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    What Jesus declares is that he has already ascended to heaven even though in point of fact he has not yet bodily ascended into heaven.

    Even going by the AKJV, Jesus is bodily located on earth when he states the Son of man is in heaven.

    It is wise to adjust your doctrine so it explains why Jesus was still bodily on earth after ascending and being in heaven.

    #359529
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 12 2013,23:34)
    Wakeup,

    Quote
    Jesus is the *only man* that have been in heaven.

    A common misunderstanding that seems to be common on this website.

    John 3:13
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    What Jesus declares is that he has already ascended to heaven even though in point of fact he has not yet bodily ascended into heaven.

    Even going by the AKJV, Jesus is bodily located on earth when he states the Son of man is in heaven.

    It is wise to adjust your doctrine so it explains why Jesus was still bodily on earth after ascending and being in heaven.


    Kerwin.

    [/QUOTE]A common misunderstanding that seems to be common on this website.
    John 3:13
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
    13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
    What Jesus declares is that he has already ascended to heaven even though in point of fact he has not yet bodily ascended into heaven.
    Even going by the AKJV, Jesus is bodily located on earth when he states the Son of man is in heaven.
    It is wise to adjust your doctrine so it explains why Jesus was still bodily on earth after ascending and being in heaven.
    [/QUOTE].

    (john 3:13).
    You can not see if you refuse to see,or look.
    Jesus was speaking about himself when he was in heaven with his Father. You refuse to see,because that would
    do your doctrine no good. What happened to honesty?

    What happened to clear conscience?

    wakeup.

    #359530
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 10 2013,16:00)
    Marty.

    Colossians 1:16.
      ***For by him were all things created***,
    that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers:
    *** all things were created by him, and for him***:

    Refering to Jesus:

    Revelation 4:11   Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

    Refering to God:
    Here lies the mystery to the world.


    I want to make two points, Wakeup:

    1.  Try using a translation that says all things were created THROUGH Jesus, not BY Jesus.  (The Greek word means either, so let's use the one that aligns with the rest of the scriptures.)

    And after settling on the better translation of “THROUGH”, remember the words of Tertullian:  He who creates is one, and he THROUGH WHOM the thing is created is another.

    So, saying that God created all things ALONE and BY HIMSELF, THROUGH His Son Jesus Christ, is NOT the same as saying Jesus actually created even one single thing.

    2.  Revelation 4:11 is another of those scriptures that insists Jesus is a creation of God.  Because if God created ALL THINGS, and Jesus is a thing who is not God Himself, then Jesus has no choice but to be one of the ALL THINGS that was created BY God.

    #359531
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 11 2013,19:29)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 10 2013,10:57)

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 08 2013,18:09)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 08 2013,11:17)

    1.  Are you telling me that a SAYING of God was both with God and was God in the beginning?  

    2.  Are you telling me that a SAYING of God actually became a flesh and blood man, who dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten?  

    3.  Are you telling me that it is a SAYING of God who will ride a white horse and do battle against Satan and his hordes?


    no, no & no


    Hmmmmmm…………..

    Your “NO” answers don't align with this following quote of what you said on page 1002:

    “I don't know what you don't understand about the Word of God were the sayings of God. “

    Please explain.


    You said “a saying of God”, and that is not what is not what I said.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    :)

    Okay Marty,

    Let me rephrase my questions:

    1.  Are you telling me that the SAYINGS of God were both with God and were God in the beginning?  

    2.  Are you telling me that the SAYINGS of God actually became a flesh and blood man, who dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten?  

    3.  Are you telling me that it is the SAYINGS of God who will ride a white horse and do battle against Satan and his hordes?

    #359536
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 13 2013,03:04)

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 11 2013,19:29)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 10 2013,10:57)

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 08 2013,18:09)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 08 2013,11:17)

    1.  Are you telling me that a SAYING of God was both with God and was God in the beginning?  

    2.  Are you telling me that a SAYING of God actually became a flesh and blood man, who dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten?  

    3.  Are you telling me that it is a SAYING of God who will ride a white horse and do battle against Satan and his hordes?


    no, no & no


    Hmmmmmm…………..

    Your “NO” answers don't align with this following quote of what you said on page 1002:

    “I don't know what you don't understand about the Word of God were the sayings of God. “

    Please explain.


    You said “a saying of God”, and that is not what is not what I said.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    :)

    Okay Marty,

    Let me rephrase my questions:

    1.  Are you telling me that the SAYINGS of God were both with God and were God in the beginning?  

    2.  Are you telling me that the SAYINGS of God actually became a flesh and blood man, who dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten?  

    3.  Are you telling me that it is the SAYINGS of God who will ride a white horse and do battle against Satan and his hordes?


    I might have to qualify how, but the answer to those questions is yes.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #359537
    942767
    Participant

    Hi Wakeup:

    You use Revelation 4:11 to try to make your point and then when I show you that you are understanding this incorrectly you just gloss right over what has been shown you, and go right on with your thinking that Jesus is the creator.

    Let me post this for you again since you brought up Revelation 4:11. These scriptures when read in context show that God is the creator:

    Quote

    Rev 4:2

    And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

    (Ok, so one is sitting on the throne. Who is this person sitting on the throne?)

    Rev 4:3

    And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

    Rev 4:4

    And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

    Rev 4:6

    And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

    Rev 4:7

    And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

    Rev 4:8

    And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

    (This verse identifies who it is that is sitting on the throne, and it is the Lord God Almighty, not Jesus)

    Rev 4:9

    And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

    Rev 4:10

    The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

    Rev 4:11

    Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

    (And this verse shows that God created all things, not Jesus.)
    Rev 5:1

    And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
    Rev 5:2

    And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
    Rev 5:3

    And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

    Rev 5:4

    And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

    Rev 5:5

    And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

    Rev 5:6

    And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
    Rev 5:7

    And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

    (And this verse shows that it is Jesus who has prevailed to open the seven seals, and shows him taking them from him that sits on the throne, that is from God)
    Rev 5:8

    And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

    Rev 5:9

    And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
    Rev 5:10

    And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

    The Word of God to humanity is that which God has spoken through Jesus in these last days, and the Word of God that he has obeyed unto death on the cross.

    Quote

    Jhn 12:47

    And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

    Jhn 12:48

    He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

    Jhn 12:49

    For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

    Jhn 12:50

    And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

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