John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 14,261 through 14,280 (of 26,009 total)
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  • #359316
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Marty,

    The definition of both the Hebrew and Greek words you listed is simply “word”. I understand that.

    You say the Word “pertains to Jesus”. Please explain. How exactly does the Word who was with God in the beginning, and became flesh and dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son “pertain to” Jesus?

    #359319
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 06 2013,02:11)
    Marty,

    The definition of both the Hebrew and Greek words you listed is simply “word”.  I understand that.

    You say the Word “pertains to Jesus”.  Please explain.  How exactly does the Word who was with God in the beginning, and became flesh and dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son “pertain to” Jesus?


    Hi Mike:

    How many scriptures in the OT, either prophetic or symbolic, relate to the coming of the Messiah, who we now know to be Jesus?

    Is this the Word of God?

    And where does John 1:1 state the Word (who) was with God in the beginning.

    It states:

    Quote

    Jhn 1:1
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    There is no “who” in that scripture, is there?

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #359327
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    There is a “HE was with God in the beginning”, right?

    Now, please explain to me how the Word “pertains to” Jesus, but isn't really Jesus.  Because what you've posted above doesn't explain anything to me about how you're understanding this “pertains to” stuff.

    #359335
    carmel
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 02 2013,03:41)
    [/quote]
    [quote=kerwin,Oct. 02 2013,03:41]


    Quote
    Paul is teaching that Jesus Christ is all to believers and that Jesus Christ is in him.  

    Kerwin,

    YOU ARE WRONG, WRONG , AND WRONG! WITH EVERY RESPECT!

    AND THE ABOVE IS A VERY, VERY POOR UNDERSTANDING FROM YOUR PART!

    JESUS CHRIST IS ALL AND IN  ALL

    SO ACCORDING TO YOU HE IS REFERRING TO HIMSELF THAT CHRIST IS IN HIM AND ONLY TO THE BELIEVERS???

    WHY THEREFORE THE WORDS :

    IS ALL, AND IN ALL WERE USED ?

    THE WORD ALL IS A VERY CLEAR WORD WHICH MEANS  CHRIST IS THE ENTIRE EXISTENCE, AND IN THE ENTIRE EXISTENCE!

    COLOSSIANS  IS DIRECTED  BOTH TO THE  BELIEVERS AND TO THE UNBELIEVERS!

    BOTH  TO THE GENTILES AND TO THE JEWS! THEREFORE TO THE WHOLE WORLD, AND ALL IT’S SUBSTANCES, WHICH  PURPOSELY AND GRADUALLY EVOLVED AND PRODUCED  THE FIRST PERFECT MAN ADAM TRANSFORMED INTO THE FIRST EVER LIVING SOUL, BUT DIED THROUGH SIN,AND WHICH HAD TO BE ONCE AND FOR ALL  RECREATED AGAIN BY THE UNIQUE PERFECT LIFE GIVING SPIRIT GODMAN , JESUS CHRIST!

    PAUL WAS REFERRING TO THE NEW MAN WHO MUST BE MANIFESTED TOTALLY  BY ALL MEN !

    THIS FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT PAUL'S RESPONSIBILITY WAS TO ESTABLISH THE SOUL CONCEPT WITHIN THE CHURCH, AND ALL SOULS NO MATTER WHO AND WHAT,WERE CHRIST'S SUBSTANCE!

    OBVIOUSLY HE WAS TALKING TO THE CHRISTIANS!

    BUT PAUL MADE IT CLEAR THAT, AS A SPIRIT, JESUS CHRIST , HAD REMOVED SATAN'S SPIRIT FROM WITHIN THE ENTIRE PROCESS OF THE HUMAN SOUL, LOST DUE TO ADAM SIN, AND OFFICIALLY ESTABLISHED HIMSELF AS THE OWNER OF ALL SOULS HIS SUBSTANCE, NO MATTER WHO, AND WHAT!

    NOT ONLY THAT

    BUT BECAME ALSO THE PROPRIETOR OF THE FLESH AND BLOOD BODY, LUCIFER'S, SINCE HE GLORIFIED IT THROUGH THE POURING OF HIS OWN PURE SPIRIT OF HIS BLOOD AND DEATH ON THE CROSS!

    GOD SAID:

    Leviticus 17: Because THE LIFE OF THE FLESH IS IN THE BLOOD: and I have given it to you, that you may make atonement with it upon the altar for your SOULS, and the blood may be for an expiation of the SOUL .

    SO NOW MAN IS THE PROPERTY OF GOD THROUGHOUT, BOTH BODY AND SOUL! DUE TO THE FACT THAT JESUS CHRIST, THE WORD THE TRIUNE, MEDIATOR GOD,CREATED ALL BECAME FLESH, DIED FOR ALL, REDEEMED ALL, AND OWNS ALL! NOT ONLY FOR PAUL, AND BELIEVERS!

    SO CHRIST IS ALL AND IN ALL FROM CONCEPTION!

    THEREFORE CHRIST IS THE SUPREME OWNER OF ALL WHATEVER IS CREATED! SINCE IT IS CREATED FOR THE SAKE OF MAN! JESUS CHRIST!

    SO YOU ARE WELL MISTAKEN!

    READ:

    Colossians 1:16 For IN HIM were ALL THINGS CREATED in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers: ALL THINGS WERE CREATED BY HIM AND IN HIM.

    17And he is before all, and by him (HIS SPIRIT, THE WORD,) ALL THINGS CONSIST.

    JESUS ALSO CONFIRMED IN:

    John 8:36 If therefore the son (CHRIST) shall make you free, you shall be free indeed.

    NOTICE FREE INDEED SO WHETHER A SOUL BELIEVE IN CHRIST OR NOT, SHE IS STILL REDEEMED, FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT SATAN LOST THE AUTOMATIC OWNERSHIP OF ALL SOULS ON THE CROSS!

    JESUS CHRIST WAS THE RANSOM!

    READ THE TRUTH THAT YOU ARE NOT AWARE OF:

    John 1: 9That was the true light, which enlighteneth every man that cometh into this world’

    OK? CLEAR, IT SAYS: WHICH ENLIGHTEN EVERYMAN THAT COMETH INTO THIS WORLD! SO FROM BIRTH ALL SOULS ARE OFFICIALLY CHRIST’S! BUT STILL FREE, TO LIVE THE WAY THEY WANT! AND AFTER DEATH THEY SHALL FACE CHRIST AS THE OWNER OF ALL SOULS AND HE DECIDES WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO THEM!

    NOT ONE SOUL GOES STRAIGHT TO HELL ANY MORE, LIKE WHAT HAPPENED BEFORE REDEMPTION!

    IT HAS TO AND MUST BE SO!

    IN ORDER TO TOPPLE SATAN’S OWN PROCEDURE ESTABLISHED IN THE BLOOD THROUGH ADAM SIN!

    1 John 3:8 He that commmitteth sin is of the devil: for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose, the Son of God APPEARED that HE MIGHT DESTROY THE WORKS OF THE DEVIL!

    SO I AM AFRAID YOU HAVE TO GO BACK AND READ MY POST AGAIN IN ORDER TO REFLECT AND COMMENT ACCORDINGLY

    Peace and love in Jesus christ

    Charles

    #359346
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 06 2013,12:09)
    There is a “HE was with God in the beginning”, right?

    Now, please explain to me how the Word “pertains to” Jesus, but isn't really Jesus.  Because what you've posted above doesn't explain anything to me about how you're understanding this “pertains to” stuff.


    Hi Mike:

    Most of the translations do translate verse 2 as “He” was with …, some translate “the same was with God…, and according to the definition, it would be translated as “this was with God”, and so, it depends who you believe.

    But Jesus was with God in the beginning as someone who would be manifest to the world at a particular point in time, but he did not exist as a living soul.

    It was God's plan that he would be conceived in the womb of the virgin Mary from the beginning.

    I don't know what you don't understand about the Word of God were the sayings of God. These sayings are prophetic relative to His sending forth the Messiah which we now know to be Jesus.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #359349
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 07 2013,06:31)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 06 2013,12:09)
    There is a “HE was with God in the beginning”, right?

    Now, please explain to me how the Word “pertains to” Jesus, but isn't really Jesus.  Because what you've posted above doesn't explain anything to me about how you're understanding this “pertains to” stuff.


    Hi Mike:

    Most of the translations do translate verse 2 as “He” was with …, some translate “the same was with God…, and according to the definition, it would be translated as “this was with God”, and so, it depends who you believe.

    But Jesus was with God in the beginning as someone who would be manifest to the world at a particular point in time, but he did not exist as a living soul.

    It was God's plan that he would be conceived in the womb of the virgin Mary from the beginning.

    I don't know what you don't understand about the Word of God were the sayings of God.  These sayings are prophetic relative to His sending forth the Messiah which we now know to be Jesus.  

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Is it possible for Jehovah to bring out *His Word*
    as an image of himself,and created all things
    through him?

    wakeup.

    #359355
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 06 2013,13:31)
    Hi Mike:

    Most of the translations do translate verse 2 as “He” was with …, some translate “the same was with God…, and according to the definition, it would be translated as “this was with God”, and so, it depends who you believe.


    Marty,

    In the Greek, the pronoun (He) was written in the masculine form.  Not only that, but when this Word became flesh and dwelled on earth, he did so with the glory of God's only begotten Son – not God's only begotten “daughter”, or “thing”.

    So “HE” is what was written by John, and “HE” is what was meant by John.

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 06 2013,13:31)
    But Jesus was with God in the beginning as someone who would be manifest to the world at a particular point in time………..


    Mystery Babylon, Marty.  What you want to say is that God had determined the life and role Jesus would someday fulfill from the beginning, but Jesus himself didn't actually exist until conceived in the womb of Mary.

    But in order to fit your unscriptural view into the wording of John 1, you must confusingly say “Jesus was with God in the beginning” – when you don't really mean such a thing.

    Nothing but Mystery Babylon.  Jesus either WAS with God in the beginning, or he WASN'T.  You believe he WASN'T – so don't go trying to use the Kerwin-like language of confusion to PRETEND you're aligned with the scriptures by saying he WAS – when you really believe he WASN'T.

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 06 2013,13:31)
    It was God's plan that he would be conceived in the womb of the virgin Mary from the beginning.


    I don't deny that at all.  Our difference is that I believe Jesus was an existing being at the time God devised this plan, and you don't.  But we agree that it was foretold long before it happened that the Messiah would come from the tribe of Judah, be a branch of David's tree, and be born of a human woman.

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 06 2013,13:31)
    I don't know what you don't understand about the Word of God were the sayings of God.


    Okay, now we're getting nearer to clearer.  

    1.  Are you telling me that a SAYING of God was both with God and was God in the beginning?  

    2.  Are you telling me that a SAYING of God actually became a flesh and blood man, who dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten?  

    3.  Are you telling me that it is a SAYING of God who will ride a white horse and do battle against Satan and his hordes?

    #359358
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 07 2013,08:25)

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 07 2013,06:31)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 06 2013,12:09)
    There is a “HE was with God in the beginning”, right?

    Now, please explain to me how the Word “pertains to” Jesus, but isn't really Jesus.  Because what you've posted above doesn't explain anything to me about how you're understanding this “pertains to” stuff.


    Hi Mike:

    Most of the translations do translate verse 2 as “He” was with …, some translate “the same was with God…, and according to the definition, it would be translated as “this was with God”, and so, it depends who you believe.

    But Jesus was with God in the beginning as someone who would be manifest to the world at a particular point in time, but he did not exist as a living soul.

    It was God's plan that he would be conceived in the womb of the virgin Mary from the beginning.

    I don't know what you don't understand about the Word of God were the sayings of God.  These sayings are prophetic relative to His sending forth the Messiah which we now know to be Jesus.  

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Is it possible for Jehovah to bring out *His Word*
    as an image of himself,and created all things
    through him?

    wakeup.


    Hi Wakeup:

    I will just post a couple of scriptures and let you decide if that is the way that it was.

    Quote

    Hebrews1

    God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,(God spake by the prophets, is this God's Word?)

    Hbr 1:2

    Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;(He spoke to humanity through his Son in this last days, is this God's Word?) (And it was by this Son that God created the world)

    Hbr 1:3

    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    Quote

    Hbr 5:7

    Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;  

    Hbr 5:8

    Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

    Hbr 5:9

    And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    Jesus speaking to Phillip:

    Quote

    Jhn 14:9

    Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

    Jhn 14:10

    Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

    There are other scriptures to which we could refer, but this should be enough to answer your question.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #359359
    942767
    Participant

    Hi Mike:

    I said, that it was God's plan for Jesus to be conceived by the Holy Ghost from the beginning, and you said

    Quote

    I don't deny that at all. Our difference is that I believe Jesus was an existing being at the time God devised this plan, and you don't. But we agree that it was foretold long before it happened that the Messiah would come from the tribe of Judah, be a branch of David's tree, and be born of a human woman.

    I know that this is where we differ, and so now, all you have to do is present the scriptures that say that Jesus existed as a sentient person from the beginning, and I will be convinced.

    You say:

    Quote

    Mystery Babylon, Marty. What you want to say is that God had determined the life and role Jesus would someday fulfill from the beginning, but Jesus himself didn't actually exist until conceived in the womb of Mary.

    But in order to fit your unscriptural view into the wording of John 1, you must confusingly say “Jesus was with God in the beginning” – when you don't really mean such a thing.

    Nothing but Mystery Babylon. Jesus either WAS with God in the beginning, or he WASN'T. You believe he WASN'T – so don't go trying to use the Kerwin-like language of confusion to PRETEND you're aligned with the scriptures by saying he WAS – when you really believe he WASN'T.

    I will answer this by scripture:

    Quote

    1Pe 1:18

    Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

    1Pe 1:19

    But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

    1Pe 1:20

    Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

    And you say and ask:

    Quote

    Okay, now we're getting nearer to clearer.

    1. Are you telling me that a SAYING of God was both with God and was God in the beginning?

    2. Are you telling me that a SAYING of God actually became a flesh and blood man, who dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten?

    3. Are you telling me that it is a SAYING of God who will ride a white horse and do battle against Satan and his hordes?

    What I am saying that the prophecy pertaining to the Messiah whom we now know to be Jesus became a reality when Jesus was born into this world, and it is through his word that God has revealed to humanity that He is a spirit of love. This is God: “For God so loved the world that he gave His Only Begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved”.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #359361
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 04 2013,18:32)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 04 2013,09:04)
    kerwin,
    read rev 19.13


    Jammin,

    I read it and understand it for by that time the word had been made flesh and Jesus had received the name that was above every other name for many years.


    kerwin im asking you
    who is the Word in rev 19.13|?

    #359364
    kerwin
    Participant

    Carmel,

    I am sorry but I do not have the time to answer your long post.

    Quote
    COLOSSIANS IS DIRECTED BOTH TO THE BELIEVERS AND TO THE UNBELIEVERS!

    Colossians 1:1-2
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother, 2 to the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    It is clear you are the one that is “WRONG, WRONG , AND WRONG! WITH EVERY RESPECT” as your words disagree with the words of Scripture.

    Quote
    PAUL WAS REFERRING TO THE NEW MAN WHO MUST BE MANIFESTED TOTALLY BY ALL MEN !

    You have already made a clearly flawed claim and this contradicts the idea that those that do the things of the flesh will not inherit the reign of God.

    Galatians 5:19-21
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    Your chose not to show any evidence to support your claim.

    Quote
    BUT PAUL MADE IT CLEAR THAT, AS A SPIRIT, JESUS CHRIST , HAD REMOVED SATAN'S SPIRIT FROM WITHIN THE ENTIRE PROCESS OF THE HUMAN SOUL, LOST DUE TO ADAM SIN, AND OFFICIALLY ESTABLISHED HIMSELF AS THE OWNER OF ALL SOULS HIS SUBSTANCE, NO MATTER WHO, AND WHAT!

    You do not even sound clear on that you are putting down on paper. Maybe the run on sentence is what makes it so confusing sounding. I am going to try to gain more clarity by breaking it down into individual thoughts.

    Quote
    BUT PAUL MADE IT CLEAR THAT JESUS CHRIST HAS REMOVED SATAN'S SPIRIT FROM WITHIN THE ENTIRE PROCESS OF THE HUMAN SOUL…

    I have no clue what this means as I have never heard it from Scripture. I do know that mankind is a slave of Satan; bound to him by their natural spirit. I also know that those that receive the Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ and live by it are set free from that bondage. Is that what you are trying to say?

    You have a logical and and so you have to establish both parts of the sentence are true for the statement to be true. I don't see that you have even established the first part is true.

    #359365
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 07 2013,07:51)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 04 2013,18:32)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 04 2013,09:04)
    kerwin,
    read rev 19.13


    Jammin,

    I read it and understand it for by that time the word had been made flesh and Jesus had received the name that was above every other name for many years.


    kerwin im asking you
    who is the Word in rev 19.13|?


    Jammin,

    I assume that you are able to use reason and so figure out that I am saying Jesus is called by the name of the word at the time Revelations 19:13 speaks of and also point out that according to Scripture he has been called that since the word was made flesh.

    To rephrase myself Revelations 19:113 is speaking of a time where Jesus is called by the name of the word; a time after the word was made flesh.

    You have given no reliable evidence that Jesus was called by the name of the word previous to the time the word was made flesh. That is where we are and we have been for a while.

    #359386
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 06 2013,19:01)

    Quote (mikeboll @ 64)

    Okay, now we're getting nearer to clearer.

    1. Are you telling me that a SAYING of God was both with God and was God in the beginning?

    2. Are you telling me that a SAYING of God actually became a flesh and blood man, who dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten?

    3. Are you telling me that it is a SAYING of God who will ride a white horse and do battle against Satan and his hordes?

    What I am saying that the prophecy pertaining to the Messiah whom we now know to be Jesus became a reality when Jesus was born into this world, and it is through his word that God has revealed to humanity that He is a spirit of love. This is God: “For God so loved the world that he gave His Only Begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved”.


    I want YES or NO answers to all three, Marty.

    #359400
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 07 2013,18:40)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 07 2013,07:51)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 04 2013,18:32)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 04 2013,09:04)
    kerwin,
    read rev 19.13


    Jammin,

    I read it and understand it for by that time the word had been made flesh and Jesus had received the name that was above every other name for many years.


    kerwin im asking you
    who is the Word in rev 19.13|?


    Jammin,

    I assume that you are able to use reason and so figure out that I am saying Jesus is called by the name of the word at the time Revelations 19:13 speaks of and also point out that according to Scripture he has been called that since the word was made flesh.  

    To rephrase myself Revelations 19:113 is speaking of a time where Jesus is called by the name of the word; a time after the word was made flesh.

    You have given no reliable evidence that Jesus was called by the name of the word previous to the time the word was made flesh.  That is where we are and we have been for a while.


    do not explain kerwin. i jusr want an answer.
    who is the Word in rev 19.13? is that jesus or no?

    #359405
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 08 2013,09:25)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 07 2013,18:40)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 07 2013,07:51)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 04 2013,18:32)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 04 2013,09:04)
    kerwin,
    read rev 19.13


    Jammin,

    I read it and understand it for by that time the word had been made flesh and Jesus had received the name that was above every other name for many years.


    kerwin im asking you
    who is the Word in rev 19.13|?


    Jammin,

    I assume that you are able to use reason and so figure out that I am saying Jesus is called by the name of the word at the time Revelations 19:13 speaks of and also point out that according to Scripture he has been called that since the word was made flesh.  

    To rephrase myself Revelations 19:113 is speaking of a time where Jesus is called by the name of the word; a time after the word was made flesh.

    You have given no reliable evidence that Jesus was called by the name of the word previous to the time the word was made flesh.  That is where we are and we have been for a while.


    do not explain kerwin. i jusr want an answer.
    who is the Word in rev 19.13? is that jesus or no?


    Jammin,

    I am tired of answering that question because you do not like my answer and the one I have been giving will not change. I also am waiting for the evidence that Jesus was called by the name of the Word before his flesh came to exist.

    #359408
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 07 2013,11:16)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 07 2013,08:25)

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 07 2013,06:31)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 06 2013,12:09)
    There is a “HE was with God in the beginning”, right?

    Now, please explain to me how the Word “pertains to” Jesus, but isn't really Jesus.  Because what you've posted above doesn't explain anything to me about how you're understanding this “pertains to” stuff.


    Hi Mike:

    Most of the translations do translate verse 2 as “He” was with …, some translate “the same was with God…, and according to the definition, it would be translated as “this was with God”, and so, it depends who you believe.

    But Jesus was with God in the beginning as someone who would be manifest to the world at a particular point in time, but he did not exist as a living soul.

    It was God's plan that he would be conceived in the womb of the virgin Mary from the beginning.

    I don't know what you don't understand about the Word of God were the sayings of God.  These sayings are prophetic relative to His sending forth the Messiah which we now know to be Jesus.  

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Is it possible for Jehovah to bring out *His Word*
    as an image of himself,and created all things
    through him?

    wakeup.


    Hi Wakeup:

    I will just post a couple of scriptures and let you decide if that is the way that it was.

    Quote

    Hebrews1

    God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,(God spake by the prophets, is this God's Word?)

    Hbr 1:2

    Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;(He spoke to humanity through his Son in this last days, is this God's Word?) (And it was by this Son that God created the world)

    Hbr 1:3

    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    Quote

    Hbr 5:7

    Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;  

    Hbr 5:8

    Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

    Hbr 5:9

    And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    Jesus speaking to Phillip:

    Quote

    Jhn 14:9

    Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

    Jhn 14:10

    Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

    There are other scriptures to which we could refer, but this should be enough to answer your question.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty.

    God spoke in the past *TO* the prophets.
    God in these last days spoke *through* the son.

    God called Ilijah:

    Ilijah!! And he answered;here I am Lord.
    God spoke *TO* Ilijah.Not through Ilijah.

    God does not speak *TO* Jesus;but *through* Jesus.
    The prophets did not create anything;but can make things happen.
    Jesus created all things: Without him was not anything made that was made.He was the *living* Word made flesh.
    He is one of the: *US* in heaven. Let *US* make man in
    our image.*US* is God and his image,another living being.

    Jehovah and his image,which is his own Word.
    God could make the *stones* to glorify him.
    God also could bring out His *living Word* and give him a form.

    What is so hard to believe this?
    His breath is his word.(ps.33:6).
    His breath was made flesh. Made to be seen,and touched.
    The word of God taught the apostles;in a fleshly form.
    Everytime God wants something said;the Words came out of Jesus mouth.

    He was *only man after* he was born.
    He was spirit *before* he was born.
    He was with God creating things.
    They had glory together.
    He was brought forth before the world was.

    There is only one God with his Word *inside* him.
    The is *still* one God with his word *outside* him.
    There is still one God with his Word outside him, with a form
    .
    There is still one God with *His Word* dwelling amongst men
    No matter in what form or shape.

    Jehovah is *ONE* and his Word can be anywhere,any shape
    or form. His Word was ones the tree of life in the garden.
    God is a spirit; he can multiply into many if he wants to.
    He could be a pillar of smoke.
    He could be in heaven and on earth at the same time.

    AND HE HAS TRANSFORMED HIS LIVING WORD
    INTO A MAN, AND SPOKE THROUGH HIM.
    GOD ON EARTH.(BUT HIS IMAGE).

    wakeup.

    #359410
    jammin
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 08 2013,14:33)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 08 2013,09:25)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 07 2013,18:40)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 07 2013,07:51)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 04 2013,18:32)

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 04 2013,09:04)
    kerwin,
    read rev 19.13


    Jammin,

    I read it and understand it for by that time the word had been made flesh and Jesus had received the name that was above every other name for many years.


    kerwin im asking you
    who is the Word in rev 19.13|?


    Jammin,

    I assume that you are able to use reason and so figure out that I am saying Jesus is called by the name of the word at the time Revelations 19:13 speaks of and also point out that according to Scripture he has been called that since the word was made flesh.  

    To rephrase myself Revelations 19:113 is speaking of a time where Jesus is called by the name of the word; a time after the word was made flesh.

    You have given no reliable evidence that Jesus was called by the name of the word previous to the time the word was made flesh.  That is where we are and we have been for a while.


    do not explain kerwin. i jusr want an answer.
    who is the Word in rev 19.13? is that jesus or no?


    Jammin,

    I am tired of answering that question because you do not like my answer and the one I have been giving will not change.  I also am waiting for the evidence  that Jesus was called by the name of the Word before his flesh came to exist.


    John 1:1

    Contemporary English Version (CEV)
    The Word of Life

    1 In the beginning was the one
    who is called the Word.
    The Word was with God
    and was truly God.

    14 The Word became
    a human being
    and lived here with us.
    We saw his true glory,
    the glory of the only Son
    of the Father.
    From him all the kindness
    and all the truth of God
    have come down to us.

    i answered your question. Jesus is called the Word before he became human.

    now answer mine, who is the Word in rev 19.13?
    1. jesus
    2. kerwin

    choose one boy

    #359411
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 08 2013,12:43)

    John 1:1

    Contemporary English Version (CEV)
    The Word of Life

    1 In the beginning was the one
      who is called the Word.
    The Word was with God
       and was truly God.

    14 The Word became
    a human being
       and lived here with us.
    We saw his true glory,
    the glory of the only Son
       of the Father.
    From him all the kindness
    and all the truth of God
       have come down to us.

    i answered your question. Jesus is called the Word before he became human.

    now answer mine, who is the Word in rev 19.13?
    1. jesus
    2. kerwin

    choose one boy


    Jammin,

    This is what wikipedia states about the CEV:

    Quote
    Moreover, the CEV often paraphrases in order to make the underlying point of a passage clear, rather than directly translating the wording.

    This introduces a greater chance of error due to bias than direct translation as the translator is interpreting their perception of the idea of the whole of what they are paraphrasing rather than just one word.

    The sum of your claim is since the translators believe it  must  be translated and interpreted this way then it must be true.  

    My answer is that I do not find them creditable and I am asking for a creditable source to support your claim.

    As far as I know, by the time Revelations 19:13 rolls around we both agree that Jesus is called by the name of the word.  I have been telling you but you act as if we disagree.  Our disagreement is when he was first called by the name of the word.

    #359423
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Kerwin.

    The wikipedia has not been revealed by the Holy Spirit
    all the mysteries.
    No man knows the son but the Father,and no man knows the Father but the son;
    AND HE TO WHOM THE SON WILL REVEAL HIM.

    What is the name of your word??

    wakeup.

    #359432
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 08 2013,11:17)

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 06 2013,19:01)

    Quote (mikeboll @ 64)

    Okay, now we're getting nearer to clearer.  

    1.  Are you telling me that a SAYING of God was both with God and was God in the beginning?  

    2.  Are you telling me that a SAYING of God actually became a flesh and blood man, who dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten?  

    3.  Are you telling me that it is a SAYING of God who will ride a white horse and do battle against Satan and his hordes?

    What I am saying that the prophecy pertaining to the Messiah whom we now know to be Jesus became a reality when Jesus was born into this world, and it is through his word that God has revealed to humanity that He is a spirit of love.  This is God: “For God so loved the world that he gave His Only Begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.  For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved”.


    I want YES or NO answers to all three, Marty.


    no, no & no

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