John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • #359245
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 03 2013,15:07)
    Wakeup,

    Quote
    This is because you still believe that Jesus
    is still in the flesh.Denying clear scriptures.
    The appearing of Jesus to his apostles is your *stumbling* block. Not understanding,that he *has* to appear in the flesh
    to show them his wounds and touch.That it is not just a dream, or a vision,or some other deceiving spirit.

    No, Scripture states he acted in that way to teach us he is alive after his death.

    Acts 1:3
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    3 to whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

    Ghosts are spirits and can neither be touched nor eat.
    Angels are not spirits and can both be touched and eat.

    Quote
    This is because you still believe that Jesus
    is still in the flesh.Denying clear scriptures.

    Is:

    Matthew 24:22
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

    one clear passage you claim I am denying by claiming flesh will be saved?  Rather you are the one that claims no flesh will be saved whether or not God shortens those days.  

    I am of the opinion that you neither comprehend the use of language in Scripture nor do you seek to learn to understand it at this time.

    Quote
    At the coming,every eye shall see,they must see him coming
    He can do it at will. Does not mean that He is flesh,for he is made a quickening spirit; a life giving spirit.

    He will descend like he ascended, Acts 1:11, and he ascended in the flesh.  He will be the Son of mankind when he comes in the clouds, Matthew 24:30.

    There is nowhere it is written Jesus is made a life giving spirit,  it is written he was made a man. Hebrews 2:6-9.

    I only have a limited time and I see nothing added by directly responding to your other points.  I both quoted and referenced passages in Scripture to let you know where I am coming from.


    [QUOTE]
    No, Scripture states he acted in that way to teach us he is alive after his death.(UNQUOTE).

    THERE ARE NO SCRIPTURE EITHER THAT SAYS THE DEAD
    WILL BE RAISED IN THE FLESH.
    SO WE NEED TO USE DISCERNMENT.NEED TO KNOW HOW TO DECERN SCRIPTURES.

    (QUOTE)
    Acts 1:3
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
    3 to whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
    (UNQUOTE):

    THE WORD *SHOWED* TELLS US THAT HE CAN ALSO *NOT* SHOW HIMSELF. BE INVISIBLE.

    (QUOTE).
    Ghosts are spirits and can neither be touched nor eat.
    Angels are not spirits and can both be touched and eat.
    (UNQUOTE).

    ARE ANGELS NOT SPIRIT? HAVE YOU AVER SEEN
    FALLEN ANGELS IN THE FLESH? HAVE YOU, OR ANYONE EVER SEEN SATAN IN THE FLESH?

    (QUOTE).
    Matthew 24:22
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
    22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.(UNQUOTE).

    WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO TELL ME HERE?
    YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT WE ARE ALL FLESH,UNTILL
    THE CHANGE. FROM FLESH TO SPIRIT.

    (QUOTE).
    one clear passage you claim I am denying by claiming flesh will be saved? Rather you are the one that claims no flesh will be saved whether or not God shortens those days.
    I am of the opinion that you neither comprehend the use of language in Scripture nor do you seek to learn to understand it at this time.(UNQUOTE).

    I ALWAYS CLAIM WHAT SCRIPTURE SAYS. IF THOSE DAYS ARE NOT SHORTENED,
    NO FLESH WILL BE SAVED.

    (QUOTE).
    He will descend like he ascended, Acts 1:11, and he ascended in the flesh. He will be the Son of mankind when he comes in the clouds, Matthew 24:30.(UNQUOTE).

    SCRIPTURE SAYS EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM COMING.
    AND YOU ARE USING **YOUR UNDERSTANDING** THINKING THAT HE *MUST BE* FLESH. SO; ARE ANGELS FLESH SATAN IS ALSO FLESH. ONLY GOD IS SPIRIT?

    YET NO ONE IN 4000YRS HAS EVER SEEN SATAN IN THE FLESH.
    JESUS REBUKED SATAN, TRYING TO MAKE THE APOSTLE SAY THE WRONG THINGS,WITH NO ONE EVER SEEING HIM.
    THE APOSTLES HAVE NEVER SEEN SATAN.

    (QUOTE).
    There is nowhere it is written Jesus is made a life giving spirit, it is written he was made a man. Hebrews 2:6-9.
    (UNQUOTE).

    THIS VERSE MUST BE MISSING IN YOUR BIBLE.
    John 5:26 For as the Father hath *life in himself*; so hath he given to the Son to ***have life in himself***;
    BTW: HE ALSO CREATED ALL LIFE IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH.

    (QUOTE).
    I only have a limited time and I see nothing added by directly responding to your other points. I both quoted and referenced passages in Scripture to let you know where I am
    coming from.[UNQUOTE].

    I KNOW WHERE YOU ARE COMING FROM.
    AS I SAY YOUR STUMBLING BLOCK IS THE APPEARING OF JESUS IN THE FLESH,AND THINKING THAT HE MUST BE FLESH. NOT KNOWING THAT THE SPIRIT CAN APPEAR AS FLESH,AND DISAPPEAR.
    IF SATAN IS FLESH,THAN SOME MUST HAVE SEEN HIM
    DURING THE 4000YRS. AND ALSO THE FALLEN ANGELS.

    wakeup.

    #359252
    942767
    Participant

    Hi:

    This might help to give understanding:

    Quote
    International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia

    Word:

    wurd: The commonest term in the Old Testament for “word” is dabhar (also “matter” “thing”); in the New Testament logos (“reason,” “discourse,” “speech”); but also frequently rhema. Rhema is a “word” in itself considered; logos is a spoken word, with reference generally to that which is in the speaker's mind

    In Hebrew the equivalent of Logos is Dabar.

    Quote

    Part of Speech

    masculine noun

    Root Word (Etymology)

    From דָּבַר (H1696)

    Dictionary Aids

    TWOT Reference: 399a

    Outline of Biblical Usage

    I.
    speech, word, speaking, thing
    A.
    speech

    B.
    saying, utterance

    C.
    word, words

    D.
    business, occupation, acts, matter, case, something, manner (by extension)

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #359253
    kerwin
    Participant

    Wakeup,

    Quote
    THERE ARE NO SCRIPTURE EITHER THAT SAYS THE DEAD
    WILL BE RAISED IN THE FLESH.
    SO WE NEED TO USE DISCERNMENT.NEED TO KNOW HOW TO DECERN SCRIPTURES.

    It is assumed by certain Scriptures and not explicitly written.  

    Yes, a man has to use the discernment given by the Spirit to know Spiritual things.

    Quote

    Quote

    Acts 1:3
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
    3 to whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

    THE WORD *SHOWED* TELLS US THAT HE CAN ALSO *NOT* SHOW HIMSELF. BE INVISIBLE.

    No,  It tells us that he could have instead chosen not to show himself alive after his passion.

    Quote
    ARE ANGELS NOT SPIRIT? HAVE YOU AVER SEEN
    FALLEN ANGELS IN THE FLESH? HAVE YOU, OR ANYONE EVER SEEN SATAN IN THE FLESH?

    People have treated angels unknowingly so I would not know unless I was informed or the angel(s) chose to tip there hand(s).  

    God reveals what he chooses to me and hides what he chooses from me.  There could be a legion of angels in a field and I would not see a one.

    Angels have miraculous powers but that does not make them spirits.

    You are supporting the idea that spirits can be both touched and eat without considering the ramifications to Jesus' case that laid out to his students to prove he was not a spirit.  

    Quote
    WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO TELL ME HERE?
    YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT WE ARE ALL FLESH,UNTILL
    THE CHANGE. FROM FLESH TO SPIRIT.

    You cannot save flesh by changing it to something else.  For example claiming I saved all the sugar in the house by baking it into a huge birthday cake does not really any of the sugar.

    Sugar is only saved if it remains sugar and flesh is only saved if it remains flesh.

    Quote
    THIS VERSE MUST BE MISSING IN YOUR BIBLE.
    John 5:26   For as the Father hath *life in himself*; so hath he given to the Son to ***have life in himself***;
    BTW: HE ALSO CREATED ALL LIFE IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH.

    I have read it and it does not say Jesus is a life giving spirit.  It states both Jesus and God have life in themselves.  It sounds like it has more to do with this passage.

    Romans 8:2
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

    Quote
    I KNOW WHERE YOU ARE COMING FROM.
    AS I SAY YOUR STUMBLING BLOCK IS THE APPEARING OF JESUS IN THE FLESH,AND THINKING THAT HE MUST BE FLESH. NOT KNOWING THAT THE SPIRIT CAN APPEAR AS FLESH,AND DISAPPEAR.
    IF SATAN IS FLESH,THAN SOME MUST HAVE SEEN HIM
    DURING THE 4000YRS. AND ALSO THE FALLEN ANGELS.

    I have heard people claim that a spirit can appear as flesh but I have never found it written.  

    I have my doubts angel flesh is like the even the flesh of man before the fall as they are created of heaven and we of earth.

    Jesus and those that rose with him on that day and others are another matter as their original bodies were made of earth.

    Jesus said he was flesh and bone and he made the argument that that meant he was not a spirit.  Your words are in conflict with his.

    #359254
    kerwin
    Participant

    943676,

    Quote
    Rhema is a “word” in itself considered

    Interesting use of English but rather cryptic in its meaning.

    The word in itself thought of
    The word in itself judged.
    The word in itself respected.

    None of them really sound right.

    #359256
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 04 2013,05:32)
    943676,

    Quote
    Rhema is a “word” in itself considered

    Interesting use of English but rather cryptic in its meaning.  

    The word in itself thought of
    The word in itself judged.
    The word in itself respected.

    None of them really sound right.


    Hi Kerwin:

    I am not sure that we need to get into a discussion relative to Rehma in this thread.

    We can search to see if there is another thread relative to this subject or start one, if you wish.

    I was trying to emphasize the definition of the “Word” as used in John 1 in Greek and Hebrew.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #359257
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 04 2013,03:36)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 04 2013,05:32)
    943676,

    Quote
    Rhema is a “word” in itself considered

    Interesting use of English but rather cryptic in its meaning.  

    The word in itself thought of
    The word in itself judged.
    The word in itself respected.

    None of them really sound right.


    Hi Kerwin:

    I am not sure that we need to get into a discussion relative to Rehma in this thread.

    We can search to see if there is another thread relative to this subject or start one, if you wish.

    I was trying to emphasize the definition of the “Word” in Greek and Hebrew.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty,

    I am interesting but your source did not help me at all by using words in I cannot yet understand.

    #359258
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 01 2013,18:02)
    Either this creature that you believe in was turned into flesh or he came in the flesh not both.  Make up your mind.  


    Kerwin, if God chose to cause Michael the archangel to be conceived in the womb of a human woman tomorrow, could we later say about Michael:

    1.  He was turned into flesh?  YES or NO?
    2.  He became flesh?  YES or NO?
    3.  He came in the flesh?  YES or NO?
    4.  He came in the likeness of sinful flesh?  YES or NO?
    5.  He partook in flesh?  YES or NO?
    6.  He was made in the likeness of a human being?  YES or NO?
    7.  He was transformed into flesh?  YES or NO?
    8.  He was changed into a human being?  YES or NO?
    9.  He had two different “beginnings”?  YES or NO?
     
    The only HONEST answer to all 9 questions is “YES”.  So there is no contradiction in me believing that Jesus both “came in” and was “turned into” flesh.

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 01 2013,18:02)
    Another is you claim sin entered the word through Adam and death through sin while you also state death was already in the world.


    Did I say death was already in the world?  Where and when did I say that?

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 01 2013,18:02)
    And you again claim the body could return to the dust it came from before God cursed it to return to the dust it came from.


    Not sure what you're talking about here. Have we even discussed this before?  Are you saying that all things that die and return to the dust are cursed by God?

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 01 2013,18:02)
    You also claim spirits can eat and be touched while claiming Jesus gave sound tests to prove he was not a spirit.


    Jesus never gave a “test”, Kerwin.  He simply said that spirits don't have FLESH AND BONE, like he had at that time.  There was no “test” about eating or touching.  That is in your mind.

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 01 2013,18:02)
    In addition you claim Jesus was Lord of all things in heaven and earth before he was made Lord of all things in heaven and earth.


    I don't remember this discussion either.  I don't know for sure that Jesus is ever called “the Lord of all things in heaven and earth”.  I believe Jehovah is the only one who holds that title.

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 01 2013,18:02)
    You claim Jesus is an angels that will rule the world to come and that angels will not rule the world to come.


    Now, take the word “angel” in all the verses you are referring to, and change it to “messenger”.  Let me know how you read it then.

    Also remember that God originally subjected all things on earth to mankind……. even though He still reigned supreme over heaven and earth, and sent angels on occasion to kick mankind's butt.  So even though the world was technically subjected to man, and not to angels, mankind still remained less powerful than, and subject to, God and His spirit sons.

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 01 2013,18:02)
    You claim Jesus was both conceived in his mother's womb and that he was conceived before the heaven and earth began.


    See my answer to question #1 above.  Still no contradiction.  Unless you believe we can't be BORN a SECOND time.

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 01 2013,18:02)
    You claim Jesus had his inheritance before the world began and received it later.


    Once more, I'm not quite sure what you're talking about.  What “inheritance” did Jesus receive before emptying himself and being made in the likeness of a human being? I know of none. He had glory alongside his God before the world began….. but I've never seen that glory as an “inheritance” Jesus received. But if YOU see it that way, then he did indeed have this glory/inheritance both before the world began, and again after he ascended to where he was before.

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 01 2013,18:02)
    You seem not to look at what you are saying and how connect to other things you claim to believe.


    You seem to be doing a poor job of showing me where my doctrine contradicts itself.

    Why not save this entire list in your word program, and let's go through each claim one at a time.  Because if I truly am contradicting myself, then something's wrong with my doctrine, and I'll need to do some adjusting.  But so far, I haven't seen any contradiction.

    So, start with just the first point first, and show me how the phrases “turned into flesh” and “came in the flesh” cannot both be said about a spirit being who was made in the likeness of human beings.

    Once we've got actual CLOSURE on that first point, you can bring up your next one.  My new thing is getting CLOSURE on these arguments, so I don't have to have the same exact discussion with the same exact person over and over and over.

    #359259
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 01 2013,18:58)
    Mike,

    Quote
    I've never made any such claim.  You believe Adam was created as an immortal being, consisting of something called “spiritual flesh”.  All I've done is tell you that if scripture is silent about it, so should you be.

    I see, you believe a body that does not die is mortal.  Try something else as that does not wash.


    I'm sorry, Kerwin.  Do you know of a scripture that says Adam would have NEVER died if he didn't eat of the fruit?

    I have said many times to you that I believe Adam and Eve were in a position to live INDEFINITELY before they ate of the fruit.  And INDEFINITELY could be forever, but doesn't necessarily have to mean forever.

    Also, consider this, from the Book of Enoch:

    Chapter 15
    3You being spiritual, holy, and possessing a life which is eternal, have polluted yourselves with women; have begotten in carnal blood; have lusted in the blood of men; and have done as those who are flesh and blood do.

    4These however die and perish.

    5Therefore have I given to them wives, that they might cohabit with them; that sons might be born of them; and that this might be transacted upon earth.

    6But you from the beginning were made spiritual, possessing a life which is eternal, and not subject to death for ever.

    7Therefore I made not wives for you, because, being spiritual, your dwelling is in heaven.

    Do you notice how men perish, and therefore God made wives for them, so they could reproduce?  And how angels were from the beginning possessing a life which is eternal?

    Can you see the CLEAR contrast between the angels, who WERE made eternal, and mankind, who perishes?  Can you see that the REASON God gave man wives is BECAUSE they perish?

    So, I won't take this account of Enoch to the extreme, because I know it is not cannon.  But neither can you just ASSUME that Adam would have lived eternally……… because no such thing is said in any scripture.

    Neither is there any such thing as “spiritual flesh” mentioned in any scripture.  Kerwin, you have concocted these things in your own mind, and now seem to INSIST that we either believe them, or suffer on as heretics. Is that really fair?

    #359260
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 01 2013,19:03)
    So according to you God did not mention such a thing to the Prophets and the Patriarchates who were expecting a human Messiah and not an angel one.


    Proverbs 8, for one.  Here is another:

    Micah 5:2 NIV
    “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
       though you are small among the clans of Judah,
    out of you will come for me
       one who will be ruler over Israel,
    whose origins are from of old,
       from ancient times.”

    But just like you do with the 50+ NT scriptures we use to support the pre-existence of Jesus, you will no doubt have an alternate reading or interpretation of Micah 5:2, right?

    And honestly, I've grown tired of these “alternate meaning” discussions with you, Kerwin.  For over three years, I've been involved with your multiple, and vastly changing theories on the Word, and other things that have to do with the pre-existence of Jesus.  I've watched you claim some of the most illogical things imaginable, just to avoid accepting a certain scripture the way it makes the most sense – according to the wording.

    Heck, you're STILL not done with your thesis on “the Word”.  You flip flop back and forth daily, chomping at the bit to find any little “loophole” you can.

    But you know what?  I don't care anymore what you believe.  At first, I tried my best to bring you to the side of truth and God-given common sense.  But after three years, what more is there left to say?  You simply REFUSE to believe that Jesus came down from heaven to do the will He who sent him.

    I, on the other hand, DO believe that Jesus not only came down from heaven, but also that many witnesses watched him ascend to WHERE HE WAS BEFORE.  I DO believe Jesus was existing in the form of God BEFORE emptying himself and being made in the likeness of a human being.  I DO believe Jesus is the one who bears the title “The Word of God”, and that he WAS with God in the beginning, but then became flesh and dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son.

    I DO believe that all things, visible and invisible, in heaven and on earth, were made BY God and THROUGH His firstborn Son Jesus Christ – who is the firstborn of ALL creation, and the BEGINNING of the creation by God.

    And I'm sorry, but I simply don't have the patience anymore to even CARE whether you also believe these things or not.

    #359261
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 02 2013,22:07)
    Angels are not spirits………….


    ??? :)

    #359263
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 02 2013,22:07)
    He will descend like he ascended, Acts 1:11, and he ascended in the flesh.


    He ascended through the clouds. He will descend in the same way. He will come on the clouds.

    It has nothing to do with flesh. Your interpretation is flawed. Flesh cannot dwell in heaven.

    #359264
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 03 2013,03:00)
    SATAN IS ALSO FLESH? ONLY GOD IS SPIRIT?


    What do you say, Kerwin? Are Satan and his angels flesh beings? Were the demons who possessed human beings flesh beings themselves? They were called “spirits” after all, right?

    #359268
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Well, I guess I was wrong about the thread being locked at 1000 pages. :)

    I was going on what t8 said at the end of the first “Trinity” thread:  This discussion has been closed due to it reaching 1000 pages.

    Big discussions are slow to load and for that reason, they continue in a new discussion identified as (Part2) etc.

    #359273
    jammin
    Participant

    kerwin,
    read rev 19.13

    #359274
    jammin
    Participant

    kerwin,

    can you anwwer me straight to the point? i dont need stories ok?

    question
    who is the Word in rev 19.13?

    #359275
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 04 2013,05:22)
    Wakeup,

    Quote
    THERE ARE NO SCRIPTURE EITHER THAT SAYS THE DEAD
    WILL BE RAISED IN THE FLESH.
    SO WE NEED TO USE DISCERNMENT.NEED TO KNOW HOW TO DECERN SCRIPTURES.

    It is assumed by certain Scriptures and not explicitly written.  

    Yes, a man has to use the discernment given by the Spirit to know Spiritual things.

    Quote

    Quote

    Acts 1:3
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
    3 to whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

    THE WORD *SHOWED* TELLS US THAT HE CAN ALSO *NOT* SHOW HIMSELF. BE INVISIBLE.

    No,  It tells us that he could have instead chosen not to show himself alive after his passion.

    Quote
    ARE ANGELS NOT SPIRIT? HAVE YOU AVER SEEN
    FALLEN ANGELS IN THE FLESH? HAVE YOU, OR ANYONE EVER SEEN SATAN IN THE FLESH?

    People have treated angels unknowingly so I would not know unless I was informed or the angel(s) chose to tip there hand(s).  

    God reveals what he chooses to me and hides what he chooses from me.  There could be a legion of angels in a field and I would not see a one.

    Angels have miraculous powers but that does not make them spirits.

    You are supporting the idea that spirits can be both touched and eat without considering the ramifications to Jesus' case that laid out to his students to prove he was not a spirit.  

    Quote
    WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO TELL ME HERE?
    YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT WE ARE ALL FLESH,UNTILL
    THE CHANGE. FROM FLESH TO SPIRIT.

    You cannot save flesh by changing it to something else.  For example claiming I saved all the sugar in the house by baking it into a huge birthday cake does not really any of the sugar.

    Sugar is only saved if it remains sugar and flesh is only saved if it remains flesh.

    Quote
    THIS VERSE MUST BE MISSING IN YOUR BIBLE.
    John 5:26   For as the Father hath *life in himself*; so hath he given to the Son to ***have life in himself***;
    BTW: HE ALSO CREATED ALL LIFE IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH.

    I have read it and it does not say Jesus is a life giving spirit.  It states both Jesus and God have life in themselves.  It sounds like it has more to do with this passage.

    Romans 8:2
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

    Quote
    I KNOW WHERE YOU ARE COMING FROM.
    AS I SAY YOUR STUMBLING BLOCK IS THE APPEARING OF JESUS IN THE FLESH,AND THINKING THAT HE MUST BE FLESH. NOT KNOWING THAT THE SPIRIT CAN APPEAR AS FLESH,AND DISAPPEAR.
    IF SATAN IS FLESH,THAN SOME MUST HAVE SEEN HIM
    DURING THE 4000YRS. AND ALSO THE FALLEN ANGELS.

    I have heard people claim that a spirit can appear as flesh but I have never found it written.  

    I have my doubts angel flesh is like the even the flesh of man before the fall as they are created of heaven and we of earth.

    Jesus and those that rose with him on that day and others are another matter as their original bodies were made of earth.

    Jesus said he was flesh and bone and he made the argument that that meant he was not a spirit.  Your words are in conflict with his.


    As I have said.
    Your stumbling block is the appearing of Jesus in the flesh.

    Jesus is definitely not sitting next to His father clothed in the flesh.You dont make any difference between life in heaven and life on earth.

    The 24 elders and billions of angels are definitely not before the throne of God in the flesh.
    You say that only evil spirits are spirit.
    I say that they can also appear as flesh,but only by the
    will of God.

    You must also know the difference between evil spirits and evil angels.
    Evil spirits are the souls of them giants and their wives
    and children that died in the flood.
    Their souls are not accepted in heaven,so they just wonder around in the earth,and in the dry desert.

    There is the body;and there is the soul.
    The body is material;the soul is spiritual.
    The resurrection will be of the soul,not the flesh.
    The flesh will just evaporate.

    There is the breath of life that gives life *to the flesh*.
    And the soul is the essence of the persons life.
    His works during his lifetime.
    Either good works or bad works.

    Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; ***and their works do follow them***.
    THEIR WORKS;GOOD WORKS OR BAD WORKS.

    wakeup.

    #359282
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Oct. 04 2013,09:04)
    kerwin,
    read rev 19.13


    Jammin,

    I read it and understand it for by that time the word had been made flesh and Jesus had received the name that was above every other name for many years.

    #359296
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 04 2013,08:56)

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 04 2013,03:36)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 04 2013,05:32)
    943676,

    Quote
    Rhema is a “word” in itself considered

    Interesting use of English but rather cryptic in its meaning.  

    The word in itself thought of
    The word in itself judged.
    The word in itself respected.

    None of them really sound right.


    Hi Kerwin:

    I am not sure that we need to get into a discussion relative to Rehma in this thread.

    We can search to see if there is another thread relative to this subject or start one, if you wish.

    I was trying to emphasize the definition of the “Word” in Greek and Hebrew.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty,

    I am interesting but your source did not help me at all by using words in I cannot yet understand.


    Hi Kerwin:

    The Greek word translated “Word” in John 1 is “Logos” and the Hebrew equivalent is “Dabar” not Rehma, and so, what I wanted to show is the definition of both of these words, and they do not mean a pre-existent Jesus.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #359313
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Marty,

    Your point is a distraction.

    Consider that the spokesman for the King of Abyssinia was called Kal Hatze – which means “the word of the king”.

    This doesn't mean that the word “word” all of a sudden starts meaning “spokesman for a king”. The word “word” still continued to mean “spoken words”, or whatever.

    So the claim is not that the word “logos” MEANS “pre-existent Christ”. It still means “word”. But as God's main spokesman, Christ has the TITLE “the Word of God”.

    And that SPOKESMAN pre-existed his time on earth.

    Your claim is the equivalent of saying Kal Hatze could not be “the word of the king” because “word” means “word” – and not “spokesman for the king”.

    It is a non-point.

    #359314
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 06 2013,01:52)
    Marty,

    Your point is a distraction.

    Consider that the spokesman for the King of Abyssinia was called Kal Hatze – which means “the word of the king”.

    This doesn't mean that the word “word” all of a sudden starts meaning “spokesman for a king”.  The word “word” still continued to mean “spoken words”, or whatever.

    So the claim is not that the word “logos” MEANS “pre-existent Christ”.  It still means “word”.  But as God's main spokesman, Christ has the TITLE “the Word of God”.

    And that SPOKESMAN pre-existed his time on earth.

    Your claim is the equivalent of saying Kal Hatze could not be “the word of the king” because “word” means “word” – and not “spokesman for the king”.

    It is a non-point.


    Hi Mike:

    Well if you are saying that “the Word” in John 1 pertains to Jesus then I agree, but it does not mean that he pre-existed in some form of a pre-existent being prior to being born into this world as a living soul.

    And so, I do not see what I have posted is a distraction. Understand the definition of the Word in Greek and Hebrew, and you will have the proper interpretation of John 1.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

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