John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

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Discussion

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  • #357682
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 15 2013,03:05)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 14 2013,21:23)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 14 2013,12:03)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 14 2013,06:54)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 11 2013,18:56)
    WAKEUP

    No,

    the “WORD OF GOD” (JOHN1-1-14) HIS JESUS)

    Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
    Jn 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
    Jn 1:4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.
    Jn 1:5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

    Jn 1:9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
    Jn 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
    Jn 1:11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
    Jn 1:12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
    Jn 1:13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
    Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    CHRIST ,THE SON OF GOD ,WAS SEND TO EARTH TO SAVE MEN,

    Col 1:15 He(CHRIST) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
    Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
    Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
    Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
    Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
    Col 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
    Col 1:22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—

    Pr 8:22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
    before his deeds of old;
    Pr 8:23 I was appointed from eternity,
    from the beginning, before the world began.
    Pr 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
    when there were no springs abounding with water;
    Pr 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place,
    before the hills, I was given birth,
    Pr 8:26 before he made the earth or its fields
    or any of the dust of the world.
    Pr 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
    when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
    Pr 8:28 when he established the clouds above
    and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
    Pr 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary
    so the waters would not overstep his command,
    and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
    Pr 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
    I was filled with delight day after day,
    rejoicing always in his presence,
    Pr 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world
    and delighting in mankind.

    PAY ATTENTION NOW TO NEXT VERSE ;

    Lk 1:15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth.

    THIS IS NOT CHRIST THAT IT IS TALK ABOUT ;BUT JOHN THE BAPTIST ;LOOK HE HIS FULL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT SINS BIRTH ,

    SO HE MUST HAVE BEEN GREATER THAN CHRIST HIMSELF ??? SOME SAY THAT CHRIST BIRTH  WAS NOT DIPPED IN THE HOLY SPIRIT ,

    Lk 1:32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,
    Lk 1:33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end.”

    I THINK,THAT THIS IS TALKING ABOUT THE BIRTH OF CHRIST ,RIGHT ?? YES

    IT LOOKS TO ME THAT HE WAS APPOINTED ” ANOINTED”  SEND” CAME DOWN FROM THE FATHER JUST AS HE SAID HE WAS ,

    BUT I KNOW SOME DO NOT BELIEVE HIM ,

    THAT'S ALL FOR NOW


    Terra.

    This is what I have said;why are you disageeing??

    quote:The word of God is spirit,and that spirit
    God made flesh/Jesus

    wakeup.


    wakeup

    Quote
    quote:The word of God is spirit,and that spirit
    God made flesh/Jesus

    THIS IS FALSE RELIGION BELIEVE ;

    SORRY I DISAGREE WITH IT ;

    CHRIST HIS ,WAS , A SPIRIT BEING PRIOR TO BE MADE ,AND COME IN THE FLESH;

    IS THAT WHAT YOU BELIEVE ???AS WELL ??


    Terra.

    God is a spirit,so His Word is also spirit.
    *His Word was made flesh*.
    He was made the temple of God.
    And he dwelleth amongst us,so we can see his glory.
    He is the light of the world,but the world
    could not comprehend.

    So yes,thats about it.But dont forget that God
    brought him forth in the beginning, a living being,and they had glory together,creating all things.

    wakeup.


    wakeup

    we are now ,no longer believing the same things,

    you by given the made up version of your God and his son ,

    and not believing WHAT THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD ADD SAID ,SO MANY TIMES;

    AND THIS I DO ,BELIEVE HIS WORDS ,WITH ALL MY HEART ,

    SO I WILL LEAVE THIS DISCUSSION ,


    Terra.

    You say you believe,but in your heart,if it does
    not agree with *you* you dont believe.

    John the babtist never drank wine,but Jesus did.
    wat say you?

    wakeup.

    #357684
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 15 2013,08:29)
    T,

    Where in all that you quoted does it state that Jesus is not Mary's child?  I did not see it.


    Kerwin.

    Not easy to deal with Terra.

    The woman that bears the child is the mother.

    wakeup.

    #357685
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 15 2013,05:44)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 15 2013,08:29)
    T,

    Where in all that you quoted does it state that Jesus is not Mary's child?  I did not see it.


    Kerwin.

    Not easy to deal with Terra.

    The woman that bears the child is the mother.

    wakeup.


    Wakeup,

    I am waiting for him to explain why he does not believe Jesus was not conceived in Mary's womb. His answer so far is Jesus “is not hers”.

    #357688
    terraricca
    Participant

    WAKE UP AND KERWIN

    do you really take me for an ignorant in scriptures; this was your mistake if you did ;

    I AM TRULY TIRED OF YOUR GAMES ; AND TRY TO MAKE THE ONLY ONE TO BE ANSWERING YOUR RIDICULE QUESTIONS ;WHERE YOU CAN FIND ANSWERS EVEN IF YOU DO NOT WANT THEM;

    SO SINS YOU HAVE TAKEN YOUR STAND NOT TO ANSWER ME ;THIS CONVERSATION IS NOW ALSO CLOSE

    #357691
    kerwin
    Participant

    T,

    I have answered your questions. You may disagree with my answer but that is another matter. You on the other hand have not answered my questions.

    Do you believe Jesus was made of Mary and conceived in her womb just as Scripture explicitly says?

    #357693
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Kerwin……..That is Pierre's normal MO, he can not stay on subject matter, he just rambles on trying to divert subject matter. You should expect nothing else from him by now brother. IMO

    Are you following the debates between , jb2u and T8 and Mike, and noticing how sound jb2u is in presenting the truth from scriptures , the spirit of truth is with him brother IMO.

    Peace and love to you and yours……………..gene

    #357700
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 13 2013,14:44)
    “born “can be used figuratively or even loosely applies


    Could you give an example when “born” does NOT refer to the beginning of something/someone?

    And even if you find such an example, will you concede that “born” GENERALLY refers to the beginning of someone/something?

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 13 2013,14:44)
    If it was instead written in an account:
    And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called John, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb
    Then you would not believe John existed before he was conceived.


    Luke 1:36
    And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

    It says John was conceived in the womb of Elizabeth, yet Jesus hints that John was really Elijah, who had already pre-existed that CONCEPTION in Elizabeth, right?

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 13 2013,14:44)
    That is reincarnation and involves the soul entering a new body and not one that already exists.


    But it says “CONCEIVED”, right?  It is the same exact Greek word that is used for Mary conceiving Jesus, right?

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 13 2013,14:44)
    The word conceived’s meaning in the context of Luke 2:21 does not allow for it.


    The SECOND conception of Elijah in the womb of Elizabeth DOES allow for it.

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 13 2013,14:44)
    As it sits, origins can be used to speak of when the idea of Jesus first came to be in God’s head and conceived is speaking of the flesh.


    Can you show me a SCRIPTURAL example of “origin”, where it doesn't refer to the beginning of someone/something?

    Kerwin, you are making your own rules up as you go to keep your doctrine intact. Because you believe one way, you just up and claim that certain words CAN'T be used certain ways in scripture.  

    But what if we didn't have the teaching in scripture where Elijah was conceived a second time? What if Jesus was the only one in scripture that was said to have been conceived in the womb of a woman after already existing in heaven?

    Would you then be able to claim that it simply can't be, because there are no other scriptural examples of such a thing? Not honestly.

    But in this case, it doesn't matter anyway. Because we DO have that other example of someone who lived in heaven before being conceived in the womb of a woman, right?

    #357703
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Quote

    Could you give an example when “born” does NOT refer to the beginning of something/someone?

    And even if you find such an example, will you concede that “born” GENERALLY refers to the beginning of someone/something?

    First born = Heir; even when the individually is not the first born. It can also mean primary or greatest.
    Born = conceived in some cases, which sounds like what you are saying.
    Born = revealed in some cases as well.  The more literal meaning.  

    I have not made a study of the matter but to see where you are going lets assume your premise is true.

    Luke 1:36
    And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

    Quote
    It says John was conceived in the womb of Elizabeth, yet Jesus hints that John was really Elijah, who had already pre-existed that CONCEPTION in Elizabeth, right?

    Quote
    (kerwin @ Sep. 13 2013,14:44)
    That is reincarnation and involves the soul entering a new body and not one that already exists.

    But it says “CONCEIVED”, right?  It is the same exact Greek word that is used for Mary conceiving Jesus, right?

    Resurrection is when an old soul receives a new body and I am not prepared to state Jesus is not a preexistent soul in a new body without more knowledge.  Still, I suspicion it is not so.

    Quote
    Can you show me a SCRIPTURAL example of “origin”, where it doesn't refer to the beginning of someone/something?

    Now that I demonstrated that origin can refer to idea that came to be realized in the subject you put more limitations on me.   The closes I found in Scripture is 2 Peter 1:21.

    2 Peter 1:21
    New International Version (NIV)

    21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

    Quote
    But in this case, it doesn't matter anyway.  Because we DO have that other example of someone who lived in heaven before being conceived in the womb of a woman, right?

    Jesus was not saying what you think he was because the angel that foretold John the Baptist's conception and birth stated John would go “in the spirit and power of Elijah”. It was irrelevant to your post so I did not mention it then.

    #357704
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 15 2013,09:02)
    Kerwin……..That is Pierre's normal MO,  he can not stay on subject matter, he just rambles on trying to divert subject matter.  You should expect nothing else from him by now brother. IMO

    Are you following the debates between , jb2u and T8 and Mike, and noticing how sound jb2u is in presenting the truth from scriptures , the spirit of truth is with him brother IMO.

    Peace and love to you and yours……………..gene


    Gene,

    I have not yet done so.

    #357705
    jammin
    Participant

    To all,
    The word is christ rev 19:13
    End of topic

    #357706
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 15 2013,15:17)
    To all,
    The word is christ rev 19:13
    End of topic


    Jammin,

    The Word is the Word by which the ages were preferred. Jesus is called by its name.

    #357709
    jammin
    Participant

    No. You may read rev 19:13 kerwin. The word is christ himself

    #357715
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 15 2013,08:21)
    T,

    I have answered your questions.  You may disagree with my answer but that is another matter.  You on the other hand have not answered my questions.

    Do you believe Jesus was made of Mary and conceived in her womb just as Scripture explicitly says?


    K

    just for the record ;where is your answer ??? look for not found

    #357729
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 15 2013,22:14)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 15 2013,08:21)
    T,

    I have answered your questions.  You may disagree with my answer but that is another matter.  You on the other hand have not answered my questions.

    Do you believe Jesus was made of Mary and conceived in her womb just as Scripture explicitly says?


    K

    just for the record ;where is your answer ??? look for not found


    T,

    Your question:

    Quote
    how many knew that Joseph WAS NOT THE FATHER OF JESUS

    My answer:

    Quote
    I do not know as Scripture does not say nor can I derive that answer from what it does say.

    Some of what I do know that is related:

    Quote
    I do know that Luke knew and he was the one who wrote that Jesus was conceived in his mother's womb. I also know the angel that spoke with Mary knew and he told her Jesus would be conceived in her womb.

    #357731
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (jammin @ Sep. 15 2013,20:31)
    No. You may read rev 19:13 kerwin. The word is christ himself


    Jammin,

    I have read it and what it teaches us is that at the time Revelations 19:13 speaks of Jesus is called by the name of the Word of God. In its context he is also called faithful and true.

    It is only when Jesus is brought into the world that God instructed the angels to pay homage to him, Hebrews 1:6. They have continuously paid homage to the literal Word of God.

    #357732
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 16 2013,04:14)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 15 2013,22:14)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 15 2013,08:21)
    T,

    I have answered your questions.  You may disagree with my answer but that is another matter.  You on the other hand have not answered my questions.

    Do you believe Jesus was made of Mary and conceived in her womb just as Scripture explicitly says?


    K

    just for the record ;where is your answer ??? look for not found


    T,

    Your question:

    Quote
    how many knew that Joseph WAS NOT THE FATHER OF JESUS

    My answer:

    Quote
    I do not know as Scripture does not say nor can I derive that answer from what it does say.

    Some of what I do know that is related:

    Quote
    I do know that Luke knew and he was the one who wrote that Jesus was conceived in his mother's womb. I also know the angel that spoke with Mary knew and he told her Jesus would be conceived in her womb.


    K

    1) Lk 1:26 In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee,

    2) Lk 1:28 The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

    3) Lk 1:30 But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God.

    4) Lk 1:31 You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus.

    5 ) Lk 1:34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”

    6) a) Lk 1:35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you,

    b) the power of the Most High will overshadow you.

    7) So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

    this is the story of the birth of Christ from 1–7, where is it that the angel Gabriel says that MARRY WILL ON HER OWN AND CONCEIVE THAT CHILD THAT AS TO BE CALLED “SON OF GOD ” ???

    ONE MORE THING .WE ONLY SEE THE HUMAN MARRY AND GABRIEL THE ANGEL ;DO YOU SEE ANYONE ELSE ???

    Mt 1:20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife,

    LOOK WHAT THE ANGEL SAYS TO JOSEPH ” WOULD THIS NOT MEAN THAT “IT WAS OK TO LAY DOWN WITH HER AS MAN AND WIVE ??? WHAT YOU THINK ???

    IT IS TRUE THAT NO MAN AS EVER BEEN BORN WITH ONLY 23 CHROMOZONES OR IS THERE ???

    Mt 1:22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet:
    Mt 1:23 “The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel”—which means, “God with us.”

    THIS PROPHECY IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN ALL OTHER PROPHECIES EVER WRITTEN

    #357736
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 15 2013,16:23)
    It is only when Jesus is brought into the world that God instructed the angels to pay homage to him, Hebrews 1:6.  They have continuously paid homage to the literal Word of God.


    Actually, it is when Jesus is to be sent into the world for the SECOND TIME that the angels will pay homage to him.  It is at that SECOND coming that all knees will bow to him.

    And in order to be sent into the world a SECOND TIME, it means that he must have been sent into the world a FIRST TIME, right?

    As for your second sentence………. in which scripture can I read about angels paying homage to “the literal word of God”?

    #357738
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 15 2013,03:02)

    Born = conceived in some cases, which sounds like what you are saying.


    Kerwin, I am not asking about compound words like “firstborn”.  I am asking you to show a SCRIPTURAL example (or any example, really) where the word “born” (BY ITSELF) does NOT refer to the beginning of someone or something.

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 15 2013,03:02)

    Resurrection is when an old soul receives a new body and I am not prepared to state Jesus is not a preexistent soul in a new body without more knowledge.  Still, I suspicion it is not so.


    Well, I must admit you are getting closer than any of the other non-preexisters on this site.  :)  You have already opined that Phil 2:6-8 could easily be teaching that a pre-existent Jesus emptied himself and was made in the likeness of a human being ( just like the passage actually, exactly, and clearly states.)  

    And now, you say you aren't prepared to say “Jesus is NOT a preexistent soul”. You are making great strides, my friend.

    But you didn't really address the fact that Elijah was CONCEIVED for a SECOND time in the womb of Elizabeth, did you?

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 15 2013,03:02)

    Quote (mikeboll @ 64)
    Can you show me a SCRIPTURAL example of “origin”, where it doesn't refer to the beginning of someone/something?

    Now that I demonstrated that origin can refer to idea that came to be realized in the subject you put more limitations on me.


    Is that what you showed via the example in your last post?  :)  Show me in your example where the word “origin” (or “originated”, in this case) DIDN'T refer to the BEGINNING of something.

    And then, you say the closest SCRIPTURE you can find is 2 Peter 1:21, which states that the ORIGIN (beginning) of prophecy is not with the prophet himself, but with God who gives the prophecy.  How exactly does the word “origin” in that verse NOT refer to the BEGINNING of a thing?   ???

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 15 2013,03:02)

    Quote (mikeboll @ 64)
    But in this case, it doesn't matter anyway.  Because we DO have that other example of someone who lived in heaven before being conceived in the womb of a woman, right?

    Jesus was not saying what you think he was because the angel that foretold John the Baptist's conception and birth stated John would go “in the spirit and power of Elijah”.


    What are you talking about?  

    Malachi 4:5
    “See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes.”

    Matthew 17:10
    The disciples asked him, “Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?”

    Matthew 11
    11 Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist……..

    14 And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.

    15 Whoever has ears, let them hear.

    You seem to be glossing over the actual scriptural points I'm making, Kerwin.

    Are you ready to concede that “origin” and “born” GENERALLY refer to the BEGINNING of a person or thing?

    #357740
    Wakeup
    Participant

    Before the WORD was made flesh; all the angels worshipped *GOD* and his command(HIS WORD).

    When the Word was made flesh(a person).(human).
    All the angels were to worship him,
    for he is the anointed,and the creator of all that is
    created.
    He was resurrected,and made so much better than the angels.(The man was made better than the angels).

    Hebrews 1:9 **Thou hast loved righteousness**, and hated iniquity; therefore *God, even thy God*, hath *anointed thee* with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

    Hebrews 1:10 ****And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth****; and the heavens are the works of thine hands***.
    ***
    Is there a God beside me? No there is none.
    Beside me there is no saviour. Confusing?
    Not so,for Gods Word is within God.

    John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that ***I CAME OUT FROM GOD***. (beamed out).

    John 16:28 ***I CAME FORTH FROM THE FATHER***, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.(GODS WORD CAME OUT FROM INSIDE GOD OUTWARD).
    The Word can appear as an angels if GOD wanted to.
    Which he did appear to Abraham,as an angel.

    wakeup.

    #357753
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 16 2013,07:10)
    Before the WORD was made flesh; all the angels worshipped *GOD* and his command(HIS WORD).

    When the Word was made flesh(a person).(human).
    All the angels were to worship him,
    for he is the anointed,and the creator of all that is
    created.
    He was resurrected,and made so much better than the angels.(The man was made better than the angels).

    Hebrews 1:9   **Thou hast loved righteousness**, and hated iniquity; therefore *God, even thy God*, hath *anointed thee* with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

     Hebrews 1:10   ****And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth****; and the heavens are the works of thine hands***.
                                  ***
    Is there a God beside me? No there is none.
    Beside me there is no saviour. Confusing?
    Not so,for Gods Word is within God.

    John 16:27   For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that ***I CAME OUT FROM GOD***. (beamed out).

     John 16:28   ***I CAME FORTH FROM THE FATHER***, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.(GODS WORD CAME OUT FROM INSIDE GOD OUTWARD).
    The Word can appear as an angels if GOD wanted to.
    Which he did appear to Abraham,as an angel.

    wakeup.


    PLEASE REVIEW YOUR SCRIPTURES ;

    BAD COMBINATION ;

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