John 1:1

John 1:1 says the Word was God. Does that mean that Jesus is God because he is the Word?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

a) In the beginning was the Word, (en arch hn o logoV)
b) and the Word was with God, (kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon)
c) and the Word was God. (kai qeoV hn o logoV).

John 1:1b says that the Word was with God and John 1:1c says that the Word was God, so how can the Word be God and be with God at the same time? Well part of the answer to discovering the meaning of this verse is found in 1 John 1:1-2

“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life and the life was manifested, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us”.

First when we read 1John 1:2, it suggests to us that the God in John1:1b is the Father himself.

Secondly, we see In John 1:1c, the last word God is missing the definite article, (THE). The definite article is before all other instances of the word ‘God’ and ‘Logos’ in John 1:1. (e.g., the Word, The God.), yet is absent in the last mention of God. Read on because this can be significant as you are about to find out.

Greek sentence construction affirms that if a noun doesn’t have a preceding article, (THE) it can be read as an adjective (a predicate adjective); and if such a noun does have a preceding article it should be considered a noun (a predicate nominative). Understanding this is a game changer. Scholars see the benefit of the rule for affirming the deity of Christ in John 1:1, but haven’t made the difference clear regarding the difference between identity and nature or definite and qualitative. Don’t worry if this makes no sense to you. It will.

Look at the difference between these two sentences.

1) You are an angel
2) You are THE angel.

Notice how the first one is using the word angel in a qualitative way while the second is definite. Hence the term ‘definite article’.

In John 1:1, all instances of the word ‘God” are preceded by the definite article ‘THE’, except the last one.

So it literally says:

John1:1
a) In the beginning was THE God.
b) THE Word was with THE God
c) And THE Word was god.

Why is the last word not capitalised? Where Greek uses the definite article in English we capitalise the word. e.g., the god = God.

So it is grammatically correct to read John 1:1c with a qualitative sense rather reading it as identifying the Word as God himself. It is not only grammatically correct to read it this way, it is also theologically correct because if we read it as THE Theos, then that would be saying that the Logos is exclusively God even to the exclusion of the Father. Now we have two good reasons for reading the last word ‘god/theos’ as qualitative and not as THE God or God.

In rebuttal to this, some say that God in the New Testament doesn’t always have a preceding definite article which is true, however looking at the verse contextually, we understand that there is clearly two being spoken of, i.e., one God and one called the Word with is clearly another who is next to God and is not that God he is with.

Let’s look at Adam and Eve as an example of two beings that were with each other. Before I give an example, it is important for you at this point to understand that the Hebrew word for ‘man’ is ‘adam’. This means that qualitatively, Adam and Eve are both adam. This is similar to the word theos which is translated as the ‘God’ & god. The absence of the definite article can qualify just as the word adam qualifies. As I said before, in English we use capitals to denote when being definite. So the difference between ‘Adam’ and ‘adam’ is that Adam refers to a specific man called Adam while the latter could refer to him as well as Eve and any other member of mankind. This is clearly stated in scripture in Genesis 1:27:

So God created man (adam) in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

The word for man is adam, so it says: God created ‘adam’ male and female. So saying that ‘Eve is adam’ is a true saying.

In English, If I said “John is the man”, then I am identifying John as  a definite and particular person of the human race. But if I omit the definite article and say “John is man,” then I do not identify him, I classify him. I say “John is human; he belongs to the sphere/nature of man.” Can you see the difference now?

To understand how the article can make a big difference to a piece of text, look at this example. Have a guess as to which one is correct.

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was THE man

a) In the beginning was THE woman
b) and THE woman was with THE man
c) and THE Woman was man

The correct one is the second example because it is saying that the woman belongs to mankind or man. Look at the next example:

a) Tools were used by man.
b) Tools were used by the man.

See how the first example is talking about mankind whereas the second example is talking of a specific man.

In other words the word ‘man’ can be used as an attribute or to describe one’s nature. It is not always used to identify a particular person and it can even refer to more than one person.

Now let’s have a look at the above example, but using Adam and Eve instead. Notice in English that we do not have the definite article preceding Adam or Eve, because capitalising both Adam and Eve leads us to view these words in a definite sense, the same way that Greek requires the definite article. Essentially THE adam/man in Greek is the same as Adam in English.

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was Adam

a) In the beginning was Eve,
b) and Eve was with Adam
c) and Eve was adam

Notice that the second example is still the correct one.

To further understand the important difference between identity and nature, take a look at John 6:70. When speaking of his betrayer Judas Iscariot, Jesus said, “One of you is a devil.” Did Jesus mean that Judas is actually Satan the Devil? No! He merely meant to say that Judas is like (class) a devil, or that he had the qualities or nature of a/the devil. The word “devil” here has no article in the Greek as you have probably guessed, but most translators deem it necessary to add the indefinite article “a” to complete the thought in English even though it is not present in Greek or any Greek. Greek has no indefinite articles, (a,an).

So Judas wasn’t Satan himself, rather he was diabolical, like the Devil. He had the qualities of the Devil. But that doesn’t rule out the fact that Satan is the Devil because it is not actually saying that Judas was the Devil himself. Rather Judas thought as the Devil; and acted as the Devil. He was not the Devil (definite), (Satan is); he was not an actual devil or demon, he was a devil (qualitative). He was one who had the mental disposition, the nature, of the Devil, who is Satan. So it is with John 1:1c.

The Logos was God has no definite article. It is really saying, The Logos was god. This is why the New English Bible and the Revised English Bible translate John 1:1 as “what God was, the Word was.” The TEV (1976) translates it, “the Word was the same as God.” Goodspeed translates this, “the Word was divine.” And Moffatt translates this, “the logos was divine.”

So what kind of being is Jesus then if the Word was theos (without the definite article)? The answer according to John 1:1 is that he must be a divine being if Jesus is the Word of God that was with God. In other words he is a being with God’s nature. A son possessing the nature of his Father. Not just an image, but THE image of God. He is the prototype, the firstborn. He is the mystery that was hidden but has been revealed in our time. He is all these things, but he is not THE God that he is the son of. That God is exclusively the Father and there are many scriptures to prove that which we will look at later in this page.

Many think that the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ always refer to YHWH. They take instances of their choosing to try and prove that Christ is YHWH. In their ignorance they cannot see that there are indeed many god (theos) and many lords, but for true believers there is one God (theos) the Father.

In fact, the word ‘theos’ and ‘elohim’ in scripture are used in reference to God (YHWH), Christ, Man, angels, Satan and idols. So when we see the word ‘theos’ or ‘elohim’, we should ask ourselves what kind of god is being referenced. The god of this age? The Most High God? The Almighty God? The mighty god? A false god? A human? An angel? We must also understand that the word ‘theos’ proceeded by the article (the) is talking of a noun and without the article, it can be an adjective or used to describe or qualify.

Let us now look at some quotes from scholars and writers that understand this. NOTE: this is not an endorsement with all that these authors have written, rather I am appealing to their view regarding John 1:1.

One prominent scholar called Origen is sometimes quoted by Trinitarians who appeal to his wisdom for other purposes. However, they avoid this particular quotation for obvious reasons. Origen wrote in the early 200’s A.D and was a noted expert in Koine Greek.

“We next notice John’s use of the article [“the”] in these sentences. He does not write without care in this respect, nor is he unfamiliar with the niceties of the Greek tongue. In some cases he uses the article, and in some he omits it. He adds the article to the Word, but to the name of theos he adds it sometimes only. He uses the article, when the name of theos refers to the uncreated cause of all things, and omits it when the Word is named theos. Does the same difference which we observe between theos with the article and theos without it prevail also between the Word with it and without it? We must enquire into this. As the theos who is over all is theos with the article not without it, so the Word is the source of that reason (Logos) which dwells in every reasonable creature; the reason which is in each creature is not, like the former called par excellence the Word. Now there are many who are sincerely concerned about religion, and who fall here into great perplexity. They are afraid that they may be proclaiming two theos [gods] and their fear drives them into doctrines which are false and wicked. Either they deny that the Son has a distinct nature of His own besides that of the Father, and make Him whom they call the Son to be theos all but the name, or they deny divinity of the Son, giving Him a separate existence of His own, and making His sphere of essence fall outside that of the Father, so that they are separable from each other. To such persons we have to say that “the theos” on the one hand is Autotheos [God of himself] and so the Saviour says in His prayer to the Father, “That they may know Thee the only true theos [God]; “but that all beyond the theos [God] is made theos by participation in His deity, and is not to be called simply “theos” but rather “the theos “. And thus the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with the theos , and to attract to Himself deity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other theos [gods] beside Him, of which theos is the theos [God], as it is written, “The theos [God] of theos [gods], the Lord, hath spoken and called the earth.” It was by the offices of the first-born that they became theos [gods], for He drew from the theos [God] in generous measure that they should be made theos [gods], and He communicated it to them according to His own bounty. The true theos [God], then, is “the theos ,” [“the God” as opposed to “god”] and those who are formed after Him are theos [such as the Son of God], images, as it were, of Him the prototype. But the archetypal image, again, of all these images is the word of the theos [God], who was in the beginning, and who by being with the theos [God] is at all times deity, not possessing that of Himself, but by His being with the Father, and not continuing to be theos , if we should think of this, except by remaining always in uninterrupted contemplation of the depths of the Father.”
(Origen’s Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book II, 2)

“Irenaeus [in the second century] could still interpret MK. Xiii, 32 in the following manner: the Son confessed not to know that which only the Father knew; hence ‘ we learn from himself that the Father is over all’, as he who is greater also than the Son. But the Nicene theologians had now suddenly to deny that Jesus could have said such a thing about the Son. In the long-recognized scriptural testimony for the Logos-doctrine provided by Prov. Viii, 22 ff. The exegetes of the second and third centuries had found the creation of the preexistent Logos-Christ set forth without dispute and equivocation. But now, when the Arians also interpreted the passage in this way, the interpretation was suddenly reckoned as false…. A theologian such as Tertullian by virtue of his Subordinationist manner of thinking, could confidently on occasion maintain that, before all creation, God the Father had been originally ‘alone’, and thus there was a time when ‘the Son was not’. When he did so, within the Church of his day such a statement did not inevitably provoke a controversy, and indeed there was none about it. But now, when Arius said the same thing in almost the same words, he raised thereby in the Church a mighty uproar, and such a view was condemned as heresy in the anathemas of Nicaea.” e.a.]
-pp. 155-8. The Formation of Christian Dogma, by Martin Werner, D.D.

When the writers of the New Testament speak of God they mean the God and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. When they speak of Jesus Christ, they do not speak of him, nor think of him as God. He is God’s Christ, God’s Son, God’s Wisdom, God’s Word. Even the prologue to St. John {John 1:1-18} which comes nearest to the Nicene Doctrine, must be read in the light of the pronounced subordinationism of the Gospel as a whole; and the Prologue is less explicit in Greek with the anarthrous theos [the word “god” at John 1:1c without the article] than it appears in English… The adoring exclamation of St. Thomas “my Lord and my god” (Joh. xx. 28) is still not quite the same as an address to Christ as being without qualification [limitation] God, and it must be balanced by the words of the risen Christ himself to Mary Magdalene (verse. 17) “Go unto my brethren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” Jesus Christ is frequently spoken of in the Ignation Epistles as “our God”, “my God”, but probably never as “God” without qualification.
– John Martin Creed in The Divinity of Jesus Christ.

The word for “god” in Greek is QEOS. In John 1:1 the last occurrence of QEOS is called “a predicate noun” or, “a predicate nominative”. Such a noun tells us something about the subject, instead of telling what the subject is doing. This use of QEOS has reference to the subject, the Word, and does not have the article preceding it; it is anarthrous. This indicates that it is not definite. That is to say, it does not tell what position or office or rank the subject (the Word) occupies. The verb HN “was” follows the predicate noun QEOS; this is another factor in identifying QEOS here as qualitative. This discloses the quality or character of the Word. Of course, the gentleman up above disagrees with me, and he has used Moulton and Colwell to buttress his argument. But what have other Grammarians said about this same type of construction? There is no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite. In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate [noun] is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite.
-Philip Harner, Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92:1, 1973, pp. 85, 7.

We must, then take Theos, without the article, in the indefinite [“qualitative” would have been a better word choice] sense of a divine nature or a divine being, as distinguished from the definite absolute God [the Father], ho Theos, the authotheos [selfgod] of Origen. Thus the Theos of John [1:1c] answers to “the image of God” of Paul, Col. 1:15.
-G. Lucke, “Dissertation on the Logos”, quoted by John Wilson in, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, p. 428.

As mentioned in the Note on 1c, the Prologue’s “The Word was God” offers a difficulty because there is no article before theos. Does this imply that “god” means less when predicated of the Word than it does when used as a name for the Father? Once again the reader must divest himself of a post-Nicene understanding of the vocabulary involved.
-Raymond E. Brown, The Anchor Bible, p. 25.

The most natural reading of John 1:1 shows that there are two being mentioned (not three): God and a second who was ‘theos’. They are not presented as two coequal persons in a Binity or Trinity. What we really have is one with the character of THEOS who is with TON THEOS (the God), thus he cannot be the God he is with! The LOGOS is unique however. He/it is identified further in the gospel as “a son from a father, begotten, as a visible being verses the unseen God, Now, without redefining the word THEOS we need to explain how we can have two who are both referred to as “theos.” Either there were two equal Gods or persons called God, or it is talking about a godlike one that is with the Almighty God. When we read all the scriptures we see that the scriptures including the Book of John backs up the last view, that the Father is greater than the Son; that the Father is the only God and the Son is the image of The God.

So what conclusion are we to draw from John 1:1 and the Book of John? In John’s own words he explains the conclusion for his Book. This conclusion is not the Trinity Doctrine. Read the verse below to see what the conclusion is.

John 20:30-31.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. “

So John wrote this gospel so that we may come to the conclusion that Jesus is truly the Christ and the Son of God. In addition to this important truth we are also told that we may receive life through his name. The Trinity Doctrine is not the conclusion that one should draw from this writing. Belief that Jesus is the Christ and the Son is the foundation of true faith and Jesus built his Church on this truth. The Trinity Doctrine is not that foundation, rather it is another foundation.

So why don’t translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). However, in order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word ‘divine’. See below:

“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
An American Translation, Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, The University of Chicago Press, p. 173

“The Logos (word) existed in the very beginning, and the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine”
by Dr. James Moffatt

So the idea that Jesus Christ is God is often and supposedly supported by John 1:1. However the rest of John’s Gospel makes careful distinctions between Jesus and his Father as well as Jesus and God. This same distinction and separation is found throughout the rest of the New Testament too. The New Testament actually goes much further than merely distinguishing and separating the two. In John 17:3 Jesus, in prayer to his Father, refers to him as “the only true God”. In John 20:17 the resurrected Jesus refers to his Father as “my Father, and your Father; and… my God, and your God.” In I Corinthians 8:6 the Apostle Paul says of Christians, “to us there is but one God, the Father.” In I Timothy 2:5 Paul states, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” In Ephesians 1:17 Paul refers to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.” And in Revelation 3:12 the resurrected and glorified Jesus says, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

We must also remember that the judges of Israel were called gods/theos. This doesn’t mean that they were part of God or part of the Trinity, it just means that they had authority given to them by God. It is also written that we can partake of divine nature, so that could also make us divine just as partaking in flesh makes us man. It must be noted though, that being divine or partaking in divine nature is different to actually being the Divine himself.

Also see John 10:34-35:
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods” (theos).
35 If he called them gods (theos), to whom the word of God (ho theos) came, and the Scripture cannot be broken,

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Also Jesus said that he was one with his Father and he also prayed that we would be one with them. See John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We humans were intended to share in the divine nature too, yet we are not the God. John 1:1 shows us that the Word was god (divine), not (the Word was/is the God, Yahweh) which many seem to think it says. The Word came from God, is of God, is like God, and this is consistent with the scriptures we have looked at thus far. 1 Corinthians 11:3 reinforces this statement because the word “head” in the Greek is translated “from”, source or authority. Remember that the woman came from Man and Man came from Christ and Christ came from God. This is the divine order.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God, Jesus wasn’t created, rather the Word was born from God in eternity and that is why Jesus is called the Only Begotten of the Father. (John 1:14) (John 1:18) (John 3:16 ) (John 3:18 ) (1 John 4:9 ). The word begotten means (only child, single of its kind). Notice that our spirits are born from God, but through his Word, and our spirits will go back to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) . But Jesus was not begotten through the Word because he is the Word, this is why Jesus is unique because he is the only one begotten of the Father and therefore he is the image of his Father. That is why he is called the Image of God and the Firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15) and it is also why the Bible says in (Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

Unlike his Father who is the invisible Spirit, Jesus does have a body and is visible. Jesus was born from God. We must remember that although his Father is greater than himself, he is also not just a man like us. Yes he partook of flesh and came as a man like us, but he also existed in the form of God as the Word or Logos. We are told that he resides between God and Man and as a man he is our mediator to God. It was indeed the Word that became flesh. God did not  become flesh, instead God resided in Christ who came in the flesh. So just like us, God can be in us who are made of flesh, but God himself did not become flesh. God is not a man and never will be a man. It was the Word who came to us as a man and it was the Word that all things  were created though. See John 1:3.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

And to compliment the fact that God made all things through his Word, and that Jesus is the Word of God, even ignoring the fact that Jesus wears a title, “The Word of God” as recorded in the Book of Revelation, we are specifically told, that God created everything through Jesus Christ. See :Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 

So Jesus was begotten not created and again, this is why he is called God’s only begotten Son and this is why he is unique. He is seated at the right hand of God and situated between God & Man. This is also why he is the only mediator between God & Man and the only name under heaven whereby Man can be saved. God made creation through him and for him and God redeemed creation through him too. God cannot fellowship with sin that is why he sent his Son into the world, so he could bring us back to himself through his mediator. Jesus came from God and he was in the beginning with God. So what does it mean when it says ‘beginning’? The Greek word for beginning, in John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word” is ‘arche’ and this word means the following:

1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
4) the extremity of a thing
4a) of the corners of a sail
5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
5a) of angels and demons

Below I will show you a verse where the word “beginning” or ‘arche’ is also mentioned and I think you will agree that it is rather obvious from this verse that it does not mean eternity or eternal. The verse is John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

Just for good measure, I will also throw in the first verse in the bible, which also uses the word beginning (note that this a Hebrew word). I am sure we can all agree that the earth has not been in existence for all of eternity.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Certainly if we read John 1:1 correctly and in context with all scripture, we see that it is not teaching that God is a Trinity.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 13,981 through 14,000 (of 26,009 total)
  • Author
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  • #357755
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Quote
    Kerwin, I am not asking about compound words like “firstborn”. I am asking you to show a SCRIPTURAL example (or any example, really) where the word “born” (BY ITSELF) does NOT refer to the beginning of someone or something.

    Born does not mean the start of a child, conceived does.

    Born may be a synonym of conceived in some cases.

    If you are not speaking of either first born or firstborn then I believe those are the only two general meaning in Scripture. I just browsed them so I can be wrong.

    #357756
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 16 2013,09:36)
    Mike,

    Quote
    Kerwin, I am not asking about compound words like “firstborn”.  I am asking you to show a SCRIPTURAL example (or any example, really) where the word “born” (BY ITSELF) does NOT refer to the beginning of someone or something.

    Born does not mean the start of a child, conceived does.

    Born may be a synonym of conceived in some cases.

    If you are not speaking of either first born or firstborn then I believe those are the only two general meaning in Scripture.   I just browsed them so I can be wrong.


    What about the scripture that says ;

    Can a nation be born in one day ???

    #357757
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Quote
    Well, I must admit you are getting closer than any of the other non-preexisters on this site.  :)  You have already opined that Phil 2:6-8 could easily be teaching that a pre-existent Jesus emptied himself and was made in the likeness of a human being ( just like the passage actually, exactly, and clearly states.)  

    And now, you say you aren't prepared to say “Jesus is NOT a preexistent soul”.  You are making great strides, my friend.

    But you didn't really address the fact that Elijah was CONCEIVED for a SECOND time in the womb of Elizabeth, did you?

    You have two issues here: My intent is to point out that Philippians 2 hints at the preexistence of Christ if the elements are taken as chronological events.  The should not be taken in such a way.  

    As for it being clear evidence, even you admit “took upon him the form of a servant” should not be taken literally; I disagree.   Translators disagree on the translation of one part with some translating it “But made himself of no reputation” and others translating it ” but emptied Himself”.  Even the NASB that agrees with what you like to quote makes the comment “I.e. laid aside His privileges”.

    It is not a change in body but a change in privilege according to the NASB.  The  KJV on the other hand favors a change in reputation. I don't even as a change but rather that “took on the form of a servant” is a primary fruit of being in very form God.

    #357758
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 16 2013,09:56)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 16 2013,09:36)
    Mike,

    Quote
    Kerwin, I am not asking about compound words like “firstborn”.  I am asking you to show a SCRIPTURAL example (or any example, really) where the word “born” (BY ITSELF) does NOT refer to the beginning of someone or something.

    Born does not mean the start of a child, conceived does.

    Born may be a synonym of conceived in some cases.

    If you are not speaking of either first born or firstborn then I believe those are the only two general meaning in Scripture.   I just browsed them so I can be wrong.


    What about the scripture that says ;

    Can a nation be born in one day ???


    T,

    I believe that use of born means revealed.

    #357760
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Quote
    Well, I must admit you are getting closer than any of the other non-preexisters on this site. :) You have already opined that Phil 2:6-8 could easily be teaching that a pre-existent Jesus emptied himself and was made in the likeness of a human being ( just like the passage actually, exactly, and clearly states.)

    And now, you say you aren't prepared to say “Jesus is NOT a preexistent soul”. You are making great strides, my friend.

    But you didn't really address the fact that Elijah was CONCEIVED for a SECOND time in the womb of Elizabeth, did you?

    The second issue is reincarnation and is is not a biblical teaching as Hebrews 9:27 contradicts that teaching.

    Ignoring that fact: Reincarnation occurs when a old soul enters a new body that is conceived. That is not the same as a person's body transforming from one kind to another kind. Conceived is the start of the body.

    If you want to change your position from a a preexistent being that transforms to a human being to a preexistent soul that comes in a new human body then by all means let me know and we can investigate that line of reasoning.

    #357761
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2013,05:52)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 15 2013,16:23)
    It is only when Jesus is brought into the world that God instructed the angels to pay homage to him, Hebrews 1:6.  They have continuously paid homage to the literal Word of God.


    Actually, it is when Jesus is to be sent into the world for the SECOND TIME that the angels will pay homage to him.  It is at that SECOND coming that all knees will bow to him.

    And in order to be sent into the world a SECOND TIME, it means that he must have been sent into the world a FIRST TIME, right?

    As for your second sentence………. in which scripture can I read about angels paying homage to “the literal word of God”?


    Mike,

    Where is it written that it is Jesus' second coming?

    #357764
    terraricca
    Participant

    PS 87:5 But of Zion it shall be said, “This one and that one were born in her”;
    And the Most High Himself will establish her.
    PS 87:6 The LORD will count when He registers the peoples,
    “This one was born there.” Selah.
    PS 90:2 Before the mountains were born
    Or You gave birth to the earth and the world,
    Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.

    Isa 26:17 As a woman with child and about to give birth
    writhes and cries out in her pain,
    so were we in your presence, O LORD.
    Isa 26:18 We were with child, we writhed in pain,
    but we gave birth to wind.
    We have not brought salvation to the earth;
    we have not given birth to people of the world.

    #357765
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 16 2013,10:11)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 16 2013,09:56)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 16 2013,09:36)
    Mike,

    Quote
    Kerwin, I am not asking about compound words like “firstborn”.  I am asking you to show a SCRIPTURAL example (or any example, really) where the word “born” (BY ITSELF) does NOT refer to the beginning of someone or something.

    Born does not mean the start of a child, conceived does.

    Born may be a synonym of conceived in some cases.

    If you are not speaking of either first born or firstborn then I believe those are the only two general meaning in Scripture.   I just browsed them so I can be wrong.


    What about the scripture that says ;

    Can a nation be born in one day ???


    T,

    I believe that use of born means revealed.


    s 1 – 20 of 440 for BORN (0.001 seconds)
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    hide all content Discovery Boxclose discovery box
    hide content Related Words:
    father, gave, family, Father, nation, birth, bear, kind, produce, labor, kinds, bore, offspring, descendant, native, countrymen, conceived, race, descent, Child, stock, kindred, land, come, go, sons, brought, bring, descendants, children, himself, became, body, being, enter, present, fall, child, country, carry, arrived, delivered, pass, relatives, within, mind, border, attacked, lay, brings, bringing, cast, allotted, approach, womb, abandon, shake, lost, endure, pain, fail, parts, formed, accepted, tremble, wounded, anguish, deserted, divide, stomach, bare, arrive, attacks, bears, prosper, rot, belly, burst, shakes, arrives, associate, advanced, bearing, grieved, issue, arrival, collapse, dance, abdomen, overthrow, apply, casts, borne, inferior, allot, native-born, attain, defect, midwife, depth, danced, pregnancy, apportioned, calve, begot, [ALL]
    hide content Related Greek/Hebrew:
    gennao gennetos genos tikto // 'ezrach bow' beten chuwl yalad yillowd yaliyd mowledeth naphal
    hide content In Dictionaries:
    Born Again, First-born, First-born, Redemption of, First-born, Sanctification of the, Firstborn, Home-Born, Suborn
    hide content In Illustration Topics:
    Firstborn Stubborn
    hide content In Illustrations:
    Almost Wasn’t Born Born to Be Battered When Was Jesus Born? Leadership of Firstborns Stubbornness Born out of Understanding Reborn Spiritually Human Stubbornness Battles and Babies Born in 1809 born-again
    (0.14 seconds)
    (1.00)Job 5:7

    but people 1 are born 2 to trouble, as surely as the sparks 3 fly 4 upward. 5
    (0.99)Joh 3:6

    What is born of the flesh is flesh, 1 and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.
    (0.98)Job 1:2

    Seven 1 sons and three daughters were born to him. 2
    (0.95)Gen 21:5

    (Now Abraham was a hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him.) 1
    (0.95)Pro 17:17

    A friend 1 loves at all times, and a relative 2 is born to help in adversity. 3
    (0.91)2Sa 3:2

    Now sons were born to David in Hebron. His firstborn was Amnon, born to Ahinoam the Jezreelite.

    WHERE YOU GET THAT MEANING ???? REVEALED

    #357766
    terraricca
    Participant

    (1.00)Job 15:35

    They conceive 1 trouble and bring forth evil; their belly 2 prepares deception.”

    0.79)Jam 1:15

    Then when desire conceives, it gives birth to sin, and when sin is full grown, it gives birth to death.

    I STILL WAIT FOR YOUR COMMENT,ON MY QUOTE I HAVE MORE ON THIS YET

    #357767
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote
    Conceived is the start of the body.

    WELL HOW HIS THAT SO ??? WHAT WOULD BE THE WORD FOR THE BEGINNING OF “LIVE INSIDE A WOMEN WOMB ???

    WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A REGULAR BIRTH AND A SURROGATE MOTHER ????EVEN FROM THE BEGINNING

    #357821
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 15 2013,21:36)
    Mike,

    Quote (mikeboll @ 64)
    I am asking you to show a SCRIPTURAL example (or any example, really) where the word “born” (BY ITSELF) does NOT refer to the beginning of someone or something.

    Born does not mean the start of a child, conceived does.

    Born may be a synonym of conceived in some cases.

    If you are not speaking of either first born or firstborn then I believe those are the only two general meaning in Scripture.   I just browsed them so I can be wrong.


    Is that your way of saying that you are unable to find any example where “born” DOESN'T refer to the beginning of someone or something?

    #357825
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 15 2013,22:01)
    Mike,

    Quote (mikeboll @ 64)
    Well, I must admit you are getting closer than any of the other non-preexisters on this site.  :)  You have already opined that Phil 2:6-8 could easily be teaching that a pre-existent Jesus emptied himself and was made in the likeness of a human being ( just like the passage actually, exactly, and clearly states.)

    My intent is to point out that Philippians 2 hints at the preexistence of Christ if the elements are taken as chronological events.  They should not be taken in such a way.


    The passage starts with Jesus existing in the form of God, and ends with him humbling himself to the point of death on a stake.

    Which came first?  The existing?  Or the death on a stake?

    Here are the exact meanings of the Greek words, in the order Paul wrote them:

    this     be you minding     in     you     which     also     in     Christ     Jesus     who     in     form     of God     existing     not     snatching     he considered     the     to be     equal (things)     to God     but     himself     he emptied     form     of slave     having taken     in     likeness     of human beings     having become     and     to fashion     having been found     as     human being     he made lowly     himself     having become     obedient     until     death     of death     but     of stake  

    Here's the chronological order I see:

    1.  Was existing in the form of God.

    2.  Didn't consider equality with God something to be snatched, or grasped.

    3. Emptied himself.

    4.  Took on the form of a servant.

    5.  Was made in the likeness of a human being.

    6.  Once found in appearance as a human being, humbled himself.

    7.  Became obedient to death on a stake.

    Aside from the fact that numbers 3, 4 and 5 are really one action that Jesus took, the whole thing is in chronological order.

    But if you think that Paul, for some odd reason, wrote down these events out of order, please enlighten us about which number(s) is out of order, and why you think Paul would have written it out of order.

    And can you think of any GOOD reason for someone (who DOESN'T have a personal doctrine to protect) to think these events aren't recorded chronologically?  In other words, WHY do you claim “they should not be taken” in chronological order?

    #357827
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 15 2013,22:24)
    The second issue is reincarnation and is is not a biblical teaching as Hebrews 9:27 contradicts that teaching.


    Heb 9:27 is obviously a GENERAL statement, to which there are clear exceptions.  Neither Enoch nor Elijah actually “died once”, but were taken to heaven while still alive.  So that scripture doesn't help you in this case.

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 15 2013,22:24)
    Reincarnation occurs when a old soul enters a new body that is conceived.  That is not the same as a person's body transforming from one kind to another kind. Conceived is the start of the body.


    Kerwin, you are just saying things, without anything to back up what you say.

    But let's say that “conceived” IS “the start of the body”, like you claim.  If that is the case, then Elijah was clearly CONCEIVED two different times.  And that is SCRIPTURAL proof that a person who has already existed for some time in heaven can later be CONCEIVED in a human womb.

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 15 2013,22:24)
    If you want to change your position from a a preexistent being that transforms to a human being to a preexistent soul that comes in a new human body then by all means let me know and we can investigate that line of reasoning.


    Why would I “change my position”?   ???  Jesus WAS a pre-existent being who was later caused to be conceived in a woman's womb………… just like Elijah was a pre-existent being who was later caused to be conceived in a woman's womb.

    So until YOU can find a scripture that refutes my current understanding, I really have no need to change a position that aligns with every single scripture in the Bible, do I?

    #357831
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 15 2013,22:36)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2013,05:52)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 15 2013,16:23)
    It is only when Jesus is brought into the world that God instructed the angels to pay homage to him, Hebrews 1:6.  They have continuously paid homage to the literal Word of God.


    Actually, it is when Jesus is to be sent into the world for the SECOND TIME that the angels will pay homage to him.  It is at that SECOND coming that all knees will bow to him.

    And in order to be sent into the world a SECOND TIME, it means that he must have been sent into the world a FIRST TIME, right?

    As for your second sentence………. in which scripture can I read about angels paying homage to “the literal word of God”?


    Mike,

    Where is it written that it is Jesus' second coming?


    Hebrews 1:6
    But when he again brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all the angels of God do obeisance to him!”

    Philippians 2
    8 ………he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross!

    9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
       and gave him the name that is above every name,

    10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
       in heaven and on earth and under the earth…….

    1.  No angel ever did obeisance to Jesus while he was on earth the first time.

    2.  It was AFTER he suffered death, and AFTER he was EXALTED by God, and AFTER he was given a new name that is above all other names, that he became worthy of all knees in heaven and on earth bowing before him.

    So since angels didn't bow to him before, but we know that they will, it must refer to when God brings His firstborn into the world for the SECOND time.

    Also, please list the scripture that teaches how the angels of God have done obeisance to the literal words that God has spoken.  (This was one of your original claims.  I asked you this before, but didn't get an answer.)

    #357861
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 16 2013,11:43)

    Quote
    Conceived is the start of the body.

    WELL HOW HIS THAT SO ??? WHAT WOULD BE THE WORD FOR THE BEGINNING OF “LIVE INSIDE A WOMEN WOMB ???

    WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A REGULAR BIRTH AND A SURROGATE MOTHER ????EVEN FROM THE BEGINNING


    T,

    The difference is that in the case of the surrogacy you are speaking of the child is conceive outside of the womb but in the case of a natural pregnancy the child is conceived in the womb. Scripture teaches us Jesus was conceived in his mothers womb.

    #357862
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Scripture does not tell us allot about angel and how they related to Jesus during his time on earth but Jesus did say:

    Matthew 26:53
    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

    Even during his stay on this world he had to but ask God to have angels do his bidding.

    As for the second coming angels are paying homage to him even now and will come with him in the clouds. They will not need to be told to pay homage to him at that time.

    #357863
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 17 2013,08:28)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 16 2013,11:43)

    Quote
    Conceived is the start of the body.

    WELL HOW HIS THAT SO ??? WHAT WOULD BE THE WORD FOR THE BEGINNING OF “LIVE INSIDE A WOMEN WOMB ???

    WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A REGULAR BIRTH AND A SURROGATE MOTHER ????EVEN FROM THE BEGINNING


    T,

    The difference is that in the case of the surrogacy you are speaking of the child is conceive outside of the womb but in the case of a natural pregnancy the child is conceived in the womb.  Scripture teaches us Jesus was conceived in his mothers womb.


    K

    IS MARY AD A NORMAL PREGNANCY ??? IF YOU SAY YES;WERE IS HER MALE CONTRIBUTOR ???

    IF YOU SAY NO ,WELL THEN WHY ARE YOU MAKING THINGS UP JUST LIKE YOU KNOW ,AND THAT YOU WERE THERE

    ALL YOUR SUPPOSITION ARE PURE SUPPOSITION ,BUT TO THE PUBLIC OF THOSE DAYS ALL WOULD HAVE SWEAR IT WAS JOSEPH CHILD IS IT ???

    ALSO UNDERSTAND GOD KNOWS MORE ABOUT WOMEN THAN ANY WOMEN CAN EVER KNOW ;

    BUT NOW LOOK FOR THE REAL REASONS THAT CHRIST BY NO MEANS COULD BE BORN OF THE FLESH ;FLESH THAT IS CURSED WITH SIN ; AND DEAD ,

    MIKE EXPLAIN IT QUITE WELL

    #357864
    kerwin
    Participant

    Mike,

    Are angels under the authority of God's Word?

    Do they obey its commands?

    Isn't that paying homage?

    #357869
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 17 2013,08:48)
    Mike,

    Are angels under the authority of God's Word?

    Do they obey its commands?

    Isn't that paying homage?


    YOU KNOW ONE ANGEL THAT IS NOT ???

    #357873
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 17 2013,08:56)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 17 2013,08:48)
    Mike,

    Are angels under the authority of God's Word?

    Do they obey its commands?

    Isn't that paying homage?


    YOU KNOW ONE ANGEL THAT IS NOT ???


    T,

    Even Demons obeyed him though their hearts remained corrupt.

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